EV Digest 4493
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Source For Miniature Ball-Joints/Ball-Socket
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Please critique adapter
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Contactor parameters
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EVDL OT Warning RE: eBay.com Periodical Verification System
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: State of Charge calculations
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) battery temperature measurement
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Kitcar EV's, Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) TdS Report #75: Photos - Runabout Cycles
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: battery temperature measurement
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) 12V/2200mAh LDAC Battery
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Saturn EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) the problem is back
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Check this out!
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for engine,
Generat...
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) INVENTION ON HOW TO LEAN A CARB ENGINE.
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Saturn EV
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EV eff Re: Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In an ICE car it would be a throttle linkage.
In mine they are to link the accel and regen cables to the actuator-arms on
the potbox.
No matter how many times I say it, potbox still seems like something you
kept under the couch back in the dorm room...next to the frisbee:^O
MarvyMarv
> From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:01:23 -0500
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Source For Miniature Ball-Joints/Ball-Socket
>
> Marvin Campbell wrote:
>
>> Found it at a local speed shop.
>> Ball-socket/stud on one end with a cable clamp on the other.
>
> What's the intended purpose of those?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the great responses.
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The best way to find out how thick your adapter plate should be is,
> slide the transmission pilot shaft into the motor pilot bearing.
> Take measurements from the transmission bell housing to the rear
> motor face. ...
I had done it a harder way, this'll be a great check on my
measurements.
--- Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a great idea. But, I think that, to get any weight
> reduction using
> a steel weldment, you would have to use even thinner material and
> add
> stiffeners (or, "ribs") . That's the real benefit of a weldment -
> adding
> stiffeners, rather than a single heavy plate. ...
Ribs -- great idea! I'm embarrassed I didn't think of it.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This has been done with aluminum pipe (steel will work too).
>
> But it doesn't have to be a pipe - a 4 flat plates forming
> "square pipe" will do it too.
I have a small tolerance for the "pipe" diameter, it ideally fits
between the flywheel and the tranny mounting bolts. A bigger pipe
could work, but then my tranny bolts would be inside the adapter and
more difficult to attach. The purist in me wants to go with a
circular shape, but a "square pipe" works, too, and would be easier
to make. The biggest trick for me here will be bending the flat plate
into a circular shape.
Testing idea I had: Bolt an I-beam to the top and bottom of the
adapter, then I can stand (or even lower a car onto) the top I-beam
to strength test.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Hower<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 9:31 AM
Subject: Contactor parameters
I think it was Mark Hanson who asked for some
contactor parameters.
GE IC4482CTTA100AH224XN (I think this means its rated
at 100Amps continuous and used on a 24 Volt control,
the
contactor is pulled in at 24 but an oscillator cuts
the
voltage back to half of this for continous operatin)
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V24 I24 Vdrop out
23ohms 11.3V 0.5A 24V 1A 2.3V
GE IC4482CTTA150AH136XN (150A, 36V forklift)
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V36 I36 Vdrop out
18.5 13V .7A 36V 1.9A 3.3V
GE IC4482CTTA150AH142XN (150A, 48V forklift)
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V42 I42 Vdrop out
31ohms 15V .5 42V 1.3A 5V
Allbright SW80-501, 18V (golf cart size)
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V18 I18 Vdrop out
16.4 9V .56A 18V 1.05 2.3V
Allbright? with GE PN? 44A717165-303, 36V
looks like a reversing contactor for a pallet truck
Rcoil Vpull-in Ipull-in V36 I36 Vdrop out
56ohms 20V .35A 36V .62 6.5V
The GE circuit uses a 0.1 ohm resistor for current
limit. The voltage developed across the 0.1 ohm
resistor goes to the base of a MMBT4401 NPN transistor
via a 10Kohm resistor, so I guess it my turn on around
2 Amps?, When this transistor turns on the MOSFET
that controls the contactor coil is turned off.
Rod
Here's another contactor data which is design for electric vehicles by the
Cableform, Inc. in Gratrix Works, Gratrix Lane, Sowerby Bridge, West Yorkshire,
England.
The contactor coils are normally hook up using the line voltage of the
battery plus 35 percent over.
Using a 220 volt coil on a 400 amp continous rating contactor on a 180 volt
battery pack, it can have a voltage drop to 11 volts before it will drop out.
This allows for a large range of the voltage drop of the main pack, before
the controller cuts of the battery pack to a determined level.
The pull in is at 143 volts which is below the program low voltage cutoff of
160 volts in the controller.
The ampere of these coils at 220 volts is 0.2 amps. If I used a 12 volt coil
on these contactors, the amperes is 5 amps. With 4 of these contactors being
on during a EV run, this would be 20 amp load on the 12 VDC system.
I used a Square D plug in glass relay with 12 volt coils and 250 VDC contacts
rating to control the higher coil voltage's of these contactors.
This is now only 0.8 amps at 180 to 220 volts and 0.04 amps at 12 VDC for
four contactors.
Two of these contactors now have been going since 1975. I did a range test
to see how far I could go on these 300 AH battery cells. At about 79 miles my
voltage drop has been dropping below 150 volts and still was going.
I press one of the contactor switches by mistake, and I was dead on the road.
I was about 1 mile from my home, so I let the EV set for about 15 minutes,
which allow the batteries to diffused, which allows the sulfate in the negative
plates to come to the surface, which increase the surface charge to about 180
volts. This allow the contactors to come back on.
I limp home a 5 to 10 mph trying to keep the voltage above 150 volts. Try
that with a ICE that has run out of gas.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Jul 2005 at 9:37, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> I really hope that nobody fell for this obvious Phishing attemp.
When did this cross the EV list?? I didn't receive it.
It should not have cleared. If someone still has a copy, please forward it
to me HEADERS INTACT so that I can send it to the list gurus for analysis.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From another forum:
A 24 Volts system and a Etek motor.
How do I,and should I set the timing.
More than likely, the timing is already set at near the best spot. Unless
you need to reverse the rotation, I wouldn't think adjusting it will make
much improvement.
As the others pointed out, the adjustment is made by loosening the bolts and
changing the position of both magnet plates with respect to the brushes. You
then adjust for minimum current draw running the motor at near the expected
RPM. I usually do this at no-load, but load does make a slight difference.
It's hard to set up a constant load for adjustment purposes.
And:
Stock is clockwise.
Yeah, I think they come neutral(not sure about that). If you push the
timing, It will run a little better. Don't expect night-and-day.
5% better is probly all that messing with the timing will get you.
Running 24v, not a bad idea to fiddle with timing, you should be able to get
a little more revs out of it;)
I advanced timing on the PMG i am running. Very little difference.
No-load draw stock ~6a, after timing, ~5.5a no-load draw. Seems like sorta
alot, but when you consider that minimum draw for normal operation is
25-50a...
According to this Lee is correct.
Sorry,
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn suggested:
> Not just forced air, but good air flow around the motor is also very
> important. Keeping the motor more exposed to allow the ambient heat to
> dissipate quickly helps.
Noone can argue that keeping the shell cool is a good idea, but forcing air
THRU the motor is essential if it's drawing more than 50amps steady. And
cooling the external case will do little to keep the ETEK from thermal
runaway if you're in the 100amp+ range. Even if you blow air at the case
slits, the air will go around the motor before it goes thru it. So sure,
you may cool the case, but the armature and commutator overheat and the
motor fries. Force cooling air thru the armature where the heat gets
generated (easy to do with the ETEK) and the heat never gets to the case in
the first place---I can run my ETEK at 36v with 150amps continuous with the
case only barely getting warm inside an outboard motor cowling on my boat.
Meanwhile, the cooling exhaust temperature is a nice hand-warming
temperature. Only thing I can do better is to replace the non-perforated
brush cap with the perforated one to help keep them cool.
Here's a question: which way is it best to blow the air thru the ETEK? From
the brush end or TO the brush end? With my outboard boat motor
installation, air flow was initially from top-bottom (i.e. from the brush
end down). Later I changed the airflow direction to blow axially up thru
the motor towards the brushes. This ensured pulling cooler air from the
bottom of the outboard, up thru the motor, thru the fan and up towards the
cowling exhaust port. But there was nothing ensuring the air would exhaust
thru that port, and instead was allowed to recirculate in my motor cowling
(which slowly got warmer and warmer). This led to the addition of an
exhaust plenum at the top of the motor cowling above the fan----motor and
motor case then stayed cool.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup you can get them to run on more amps...but it all ends up as heat.
They magnetically saturate at 350 amps. They are Permag, so once there,
that's all you are going to get.
Now adding Etecks is a good idea.
Advancing them is also a good idea.
You loose bottom end torque and gain top end RPM. To a extent....
Trial and error is the only way.
Shawn??? You da E-teck boy, What works????
You also have dyno plots...you tell us.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
> > I wouldn't use over a 330 amp controller on the Etek if you want it to
> > live.
>
> Is this really the consensus? I've seen a lot of race rides with ETEKs
> juiced up beyond 330A. What about Brian's dual etek and baby zilla
> cycle? What about the monster pocket bikes? Aren't there many examples
> of ETEKs running at above 330A?
>
> Just curious.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ok, thanks
i'm playing with an atmega16 and i will try putting Peukert formula + Temp
compensation in it.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations
> Philippe Borges wrote:
> > Could someone please write the right formule to use?
>
> Philippe, the problem is that there *is* no "right" formula. If there
> were, we'd all be using it.
>
> People have used voltage to indicate SOC forever. It work poorly, but is
> so cheap and easy that they do it anyway.
>
> Specific gravity works better, since you are measuring the amount of one
> of the reactants remaining (sulphuric acid). But this is slow and
> awkward to do. Besides, it's not "fashionable" -- people would rather do
> it all electronically.
>
> You can measure current, and compute amphours in/out to determine SOC.
> This works well at low rates, but you need to take Peukert into account
> for higher currents. I posted the algorithm the E-meter uses -- it works
> better than a simple voltmeter, but we all know it is isn't perfect
> either.
>
> BTW, Paul Gooch had it right; each second, the E-meter uses the current
> to the power of Peukert's exponent to calculate the effective number of
> amp-seconds used. It subtracts these from the Peukert capacity to get
> the estimated SOC for the bargraph.
>
> It is a very difficult problem to come up with a truely accurate "gas
> gauge" for an EV battery. The load current changes rapidly and
> unpredictably. The battery's type, age, temperature all play a
> significant role. Even if you repeatedly run exactly the same
> charge/discharge cycle, the results will change depending on how
> "physically fit" the battery is (has it been loafing for a month, or
> doing this cycle every day for a month?).
>
> Personally, I'd like to try doing it with fuzzy logic. (No, fuzzy logic
> is a serious analytical technique; not fuzzy thinking). Fuzzy logic is a
> way to calculate with approximate (fuzzy) data and still get good
> results. You define the rules that the system follows, and the fuzzy
> logic system "plays the game" by those rules to see what outcomes are
> possible. It then gives you the most likely conclusion that fits the
> rules.
>
> This is pretty much what a human being does. If someone tells you their
> 12v battery is at 11v at 100 amps load, you can guess that it is almost
> dead (because 10.5v is defined as dead). If they further tell you that
> this is a 50 amphour battery, and it is at 75 deg.F, you can improve
> your guess to say it is at 20% SOC.
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello:
I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am
wondering what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or
protection. For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature
sensor on each battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their
temperature commonality could be designed in). This would work best
during charging and could simple result in opening the charging
circuit. For temperature monitoring during discharge, I was thinking
about semiconductor sensors on some sort of bus.
Comments are very welcome.
/Bob (eesolar) Siebert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Brian and All,
--- brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Jerry and everyone,
> They made a few prototypes to test the marketability
> of an electric kit car. After discovering the
> battery
> technology wasnt what they needed, they scrapped
> the
Yet I'm and many others here are using the same
tech quite successfully!! I use even lower tech!!
They probably just didn't use the correct type of
true deep cycle batteries though excellent ones were
available then in either traction lead golf cart types
or Ni-cads.
The great thing about this list is learning how to
make the most of your batteries as that's the key to a
cost effective EV.
Many of the first battery sets are murdered
learning how to take care of them so learn to keep
your present set alive if they are still good is a
good idea to start with before upgrading.
It's too bad as your car was almost ready to be
successful with good batts, charger and educating the
owners to take care of them. On the other hand when
you find them, you get great EV with under 2,000miles
on them many times and with a new correct set of
batts, charger and correcting a few other things, you
have an excellent EV.
Why is your kitcar is both light and low aero
drag, the 2 things besides batts that make a good EV.
Because they are light and low drag, it gets much
better range, acceleration, top speed for the same
weight, cost of batts, ev drive componants.
> project. I'm angling for the "hair curl" pick up.
> the
> main bank is (10) 180GXL alphacell gel cells (12V,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED], 66lbs each) the controller is a Zapi H2B
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/regen. Not bad for my first EV huh? Any
> predictions? Range? speed? Spontaneous combustion?
> Any
> suggestions for chassis/structural improvement (Im
> thinking roll cage over the next couple years)?
First ditch the batts most likely unless they are
new as 98% of gel cell just don't put out the power
needed once you learn on them.
While your weight and controller are fine, your
batt choices are somewhat of a problem depending on
how much room you have.
How much does it weigh?
For real power, AGM's like YT or Orbitals by
Exide will give you excellent acceleration but as only
35-40amphrs, range isn't going to be great like
25miles.
Where a good 12v true deep cycle like the Trojan
27tmh or the US batt version will give you better
range of about 40+ miles, acceleration will suffer and
life too if you put the pedal to the metal often.
Better might be a combo pack of a string of AGM's
and 1 of the DC flooded batts giving probably a 75
mile range.
Or 2 strings of AGM's for a range of about
55miles. YMMV!!!
But AGM's cost $100ea and floodeds $60each.
I hear Deka Dominator AGM's may be lower cost so
maybe something for you to look into. Also AGM's need
regulators on each batt for about $30 each to keep
them inline.
What charger, motor and it's rating do you have?
As for top speed, once set up right, I'm sure it
will hit 100mph if you wanted too depending on batts,
motor though range will take a big hit.
What kind of budget do you have for this? It can
be done from cheap to first class.
And what is it's purpose, range needed? That
makes a big difference in how to set it up.
As for handling parts, VW dealers are full of
them. But other than good shocks, airsprings, tires,
you probably don't need much to handle excellently
with your very low cg.
Where are you as maybe there are other EV'ers
where you are?
I'm jealous as I have to build from scratch to
get an EV like you stumbled across!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Brian B.
>
>
> --- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Brian and All,
> > --
> > With a few mods in power, batts and
> > handling,
> > it could curl your hair at it's weight?
> > Was it a factory EV from Bradley? Some
> were
> > produced that way.
> > As it's so light, you don't need a Zilla
> 2k
> > to
> > go fast as even a low voltage 1k would do the
> trick
> > with Orbitals or YT batts.
> > Or other controllers like the SRE 600 amp
> > 96vdc using 8 Orbitals for power and 8 floodeds
> for
> > range depending on what type of EV, range you want
> > for
> > much less money. You will have no problem smoking
> > your
> > tires!
> > What voltage, controller, batts, charger
> do
> > you have?
> > What do you want to do with it?
> > You have a very light, aero EV there that
> > has
> > lots of potential for range or sport or both.
> > There are several on the web including a
> > very
> > nice one by a high school in Melboure, Fla.
> > HTH's
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> > - brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
When most people think about "practical hybrid electric vehicles" they think
about
cars, trucks and maybe buses.
There is another category where the hybrid fuel is carbs; the hybrid cycle.
Josh Kerson came to the Tour de Sol in 2002 to show us his personal project,
"The Spincycle" recumbent tricycle.
Now he has a business in Sunderland Massachusetts
selling its successors named RunAbout Cycles.
Elana Hurwitz told me about the two models they were displaying at the Auto
Show.
When I saw the vehicle at the 2004 Tour they were beginning to install a
Valance lithium ion battery-plus-charger module on the bike.
"We sometimes charge that bike using solar panels."
The electric drive provides assistance to the rider. The sign claims:
40 - 50 miles range
20 miles per hour
"We have a thumb throttle to operate the electric motor. This is a very stable
bike that centers the riders weight. There are disk brakes and a full
suspension.
As you pedal
or brake you are putting charge back into the battery with regenerative
braking.
"Shifting gears is the same as on a traditional bike. The pedaling turns the
rear wheels and the motor adds power to the rear wheels with a separate chain.
Of course you can pedal alone, but using the assist you can climb hills, pull
a lot of weight.
You can use the motor to back up.
The frame is made of aircraft quality 4130 chromolly steel tubing.
You have meters that tell you about the level of your battery.
The wheels can be changed for different types of terrain and surfaces."
For instance wider tires for sandy surfaces.
All the wheels are on quickly removed hubs, making it easy to repair tires.
And there is a parking brake.
The current bike with the lithium ion battery is about 265 pounds.
Josh is working on a lighter weight frame, closer to bicycle frame style, that
will weigh a lot less; under 100 pounds.
Another model we have on display here has a stainless steel, more ergonomic
seat design.
That specific bike is being customized so the seat and handle bars will fit her
body.
One market for these tricycles is for handicapped people who rides scooters.
The scooters are limited to 200 pounds and are not street legal.
These trikes can carry more weight and are legal in the street, so they can go
to the store, the park and get around town.
Josh told me, "My customers tell me that their lives changed for them.
They now have the ability to get around their neighborhood, get around their
local town, ride their bike alongside the kids, even for a customer with
degenerative leg muscle disease. They are getting exercise and socializing
using a clean and quiet transportation." The active elderly and handicapped
looks to be a strong part of their market.
RunAboutCycles.com
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #75: Photos - Runabout Cycles
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_020.html
Runabout Cycles
Josh Kerson explains the customized RunAbout Cycle.
The seat is missing in this photo, but that allows us to see the lead-acid
batteries that are mounted under it and the motor controller mounted behind it.
Notice that the pedals are on an adjustable arm that makes finding the perfect
position for any individual rider easy.
Other things to notice:
wheel fenders, a pair of rearview mirrors, and the pair of side-mounted
steering handles.
Here is another RunAbout trike, equipped with saddle bags.
The lithium ion battery pack and charger are in the white box under the seat.
The motor and drive chain are visible in this photo,
mount just forward of the rear wheel.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
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At 02:59 PM 7/9/2005, Bob Siebert wrote:
I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am
wondering what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or
protection. For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature
sensor on each battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their
temperature commonality could be designed in). This would work best
during charging and could simple result in opening the charging
circuit. For temperature monitoring during discharge, I was thinking
about semiconductor sensors on some sort of bus.
Due to sheer laziness, I used a digital temp sensor with the BMS I built
for my TS LiIon cells. (See the EVBMS group for details.) Seemed to work
pretty well.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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What kind of BMS would be needed for this battery?
George found this Battery at Radio Shack for $22.99.
12V/2200mAh LDAC Battery
Brand: CSB
Model: GP1222
Catalog #: 960-0454
RSU #: 10457257
Faston tab terminals (.187)
Size 2-3/8 x 1-15/16 x 7"
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F009%5F002%5F000%5F000&product%5Fid=960%2D0454
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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I had a contact say a solar power salesman told him Saturn is comming out
with an EV. True, False or salesman BS.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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again, I wonder where the rest of the list went?
Subject:
Re: how to upgrade converted pickup truck?
From:
elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:45:11 -0700
To:
[email protected]
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This is a neat idea. Look at the movie.
http://www.rosscodesigns.com/prototype.htm
BoyntonStu
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I made one with a SINGLE CARB. See www.stulieberman.com for my 31cc Honda 4
stroke recumbent hybrid.
Boyntonstu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 6:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
When most people think about "practical hybrid electric vehicles" they think
about
cars, trucks and maybe buses.
There is another category where the hybrid fuel is carbs; the hybrid cycle.
Josh Kerson came to the Tour de Sol in 2002 to show us his personal project,
"The Spincycle" recumbent tricycle.
Now he has a business in Sunderland Massachusetts
selling its successors named RunAbout Cycles.
Elana Hurwitz told me about the two models they were displaying at the Auto
Show.
When I saw the vehicle at the 2004 Tour they were beginning to install a
Valance lithium ion battery-plus-charger module on the bike.
"We sometimes charge that bike using solar panels."
The electric drive provides assistance to the rider. The sign claims:
40 - 50 miles range
20 miles per hour
"We have a thumb throttle to operate the electric motor. This is a very
stable
bike that centers the riders weight. There are disk brakes and a full
suspension.
As you pedal
or brake you are putting charge back into the battery with regenerative
braking.
"Shifting gears is the same as on a traditional bike. The pedaling turns
the
rear wheels and the motor adds power to the rear wheels with a separate
chain.
Of course you can pedal alone, but using the assist you can climb hills,
pull
a lot of weight.
You can use the motor to back up.
The frame is made of aircraft quality 4130 chromolly steel tubing.
You have meters that tell you about the level of your battery.
The wheels can be changed for different types of terrain and surfaces."
For instance wider tires for sandy surfaces.
All the wheels are on quickly removed hubs, making it easy to repair tires.
And there is a parking brake.
The current bike with the lithium ion battery is about 265 pounds.
Josh is working on a lighter weight frame, closer to bicycle frame style,
that
will weigh a lot less; under 100 pounds.
Another model we have on display here has a stainless steel, more ergonomic
seat design.
That specific bike is being customized so the seat and handle bars will fit
her
body.
One market for these tricycles is for handicapped people who rides scooters.
The scooters are limited to 200 pounds and are not street legal.
These trikes can carry more weight and are legal in the street, so they can
go
to the store, the park and get around town.
Josh told me, "My customers tell me that their lives changed for them.
They now have the ability to get around their neighborhood, get around their
local town, ride their bike alongside the kids, even for a customer with
degenerative leg muscle disease. They are getting exercise and socializing
using a clean and quiet transportation." The active elderly and handicapped
looks to be a strong part of their market.
RunAboutCycles.com
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hi Ben and All,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a message dated 7/6/2005 2:08:42 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> << > > Hence my suggestions to use a better
> carb,
> > > raise the compression ratio, use an electronic
> > igntion
>
> It just isnt that simple.
It's not that hard either. Just what can't I do
that Detroit does?
And it's loads easier on a constant load, rpm
motor that doesn't have to be compromised for
starting, varying speeds. No?
And my small motor warms up much faster, 20sec vs
5-8 minutes for a car's motor when most of the
pollution is made. No?
> Raise the compresssion, HC falls a bit, CO remains
> unchanged and NOX shoots
> up.
Somewhat but depends on what else you do.
> Advance the timing, HC goes up a bit, CO doesnt
> change, NOX shoots up
> Leaner mixture, HC goes up. CO falls, NOX goes up
Same as above.
>
>
> Besides accurate fuel injection or after-treatment,
> the only way to simply
> reduce emissions is to retard the timing. You can
> get by with a slightly leaner
> mixture, NOX goes away and HC's and Horsepower
> plummet; Temps go up.
No it doesn't nessasarily. If you keep it exactly
right fuel/air ratio, then NOx stays low, if you lean
it out, NOx goes up. If you add exhaust gas
recirclation, EGR, NOx goes down.
For HC complete burning is the key, No?
For CO, enough O2 to form CO2 is the key, No?
Again the right fuel mixture is the key.
It's really about complete burning of the fuel at
moderate temps, nothing magic.
And on a single cyl at 1 speed, load you don't
need a computer, ect to do it correctly.
I've done it with pre emission cars just by
correct tuning, timing curves passing US gov EPA
emissions test laboratory testing so I know it can be
done.
By using an excellent ign system advanced correctly
with a long duration spark it's just not that hard to
make them low emissions with other enhancements.
You all say I can't, Why can't I do the same
Detroit does?
What can't I do? I want specifics. If you tell
someone they can't do something you have a duty to
tell them why.
Because I'll individually tune each one, I can do
as well and maybe better than they can. It's not
rocket science.
>
> NOX is a pretty nasty pollutant, and, with the
> exception of after-treatment
> (cataylst), none of the startegies I've seen
Wrong, both the correct fuel mixture, not lean, and
EGR cut NOx quite well. Using high test to slow the
flame spread also helps as does water and/or ethanol
injection if needed or ethanol/gas as fuel which burns
, thus cooler, thus less NOx.
NOx is made by high peak temp and excess O2,
correct? Basic chemistry. Running barely rich mixture
takes care of both at the cost of a very little fuel
economy. EGR cuts peak temps as does high test and
ethanol/water injection. No?
> mentioned on this thread will
> address this problem, and in fact most of what has
> been mentioned will make NOX
> worse, way worse.
Taken too far and by themselves maybe but nothing
happens in isolation. Again if this stuff doesn't do
it, then please tell me how Detroit does it?
You all keep saying it can't be done but the auto
companies do it every day, How? Inquiring minds want
to know?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Ben
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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My friend thought of this idea about 20 years ago. He modified his car and
it worked. He monitored cylinder head temp as the leaner mixture raised it.
Here's the idea:
A vented carb has 1 atmosphere above the gas in the float bowl. It is the
suction caused by the engine vacuum and the 1 atm. Pressure that caused the
gas to be drawn into the cylinder.
All he did was to take a tube to the carb float bowl and connect it to
engine vacuum.
In between he placed a needle valve. With the valve closed, normal. As you
open the valve the pressure differential between the carb float bowl and
engine vacuum is reduced and the mixture becomes leaner.
BoyntonStu
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I had a contact say a solar power salesman told him Saturn is comming out
> with an EV. True, False or salesman BS.
"General Motors's advanced hybrid system, set to debut in the Saturn
VUE in late 2005"
http://www.saturn.com/aboutus2/news/pressstory6.jsp
"General Motors has announced that it will offer optional mild hybrid
power trains in its Saturn VUE and Chevrolet Malibu beginning in 2006.
These vehicles will utilize GM's "Belt-Alternator-Starter" system that
will save fuel by turning the engine off during idle and coasting."
http://www.cleancarcampaign.org/hybridelectric.shtml
http://www.hybrid-car.org/saturn-hybrid.html
No info on any Saturn EV.
Maybe he was mistaking EV's and hybrids as one in the same?
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Hi Peter, John and All,
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ...
> >>My pickup (far from efficient) uses approx 15kw at
> 60 mph on flat ground.
> >>Figure a bit more in the hills (lots more going
> up, zero kw coming down,
> >>possibly regen if your vehicle has it). A
> reasonably efficient, full
> >> size
> >>EV could easily average 15-20 kw/h at 60 mph.
> >
> > I'm having a little trouble with these numbers.
> The reason I am is
> > that I've done quite a bit of coast-down testing
> over the years using
> > both a GPS-based system and a homemade doppler
> radar-based system.
> > Using 746 watts to the HP, you're talking about
> your pickup truck
> > cruising at 60 mph on 20 hp. My Caprice which is
> much more
> > aerodynamic than a pickup needs 23 hp at 60 mph.
> An old VW bug needs
> > 16. A first generation Datsun Z with 205mm tires
> needs 16 (amazing as
>
> Well, first of all it's a small pickup (87 toyota).
> Secondly it has LRR
> tires and low friction lube in the tranny and diff.
> These make a
> noticable reduction in power requirements.
The lower frontal area and low drag tires really
make a difference of 20-30%. Now if you just put a
Daytona Kitcar, ect body on that frame/EV drive you
would really have something ;-)
>
> FWIW, top speed on my pickup is slightly over 70
> mph. Max power out of my
> batteries (120V worth of 8V GC) is just under 30 kw.
> All power figures
> measured with an E-meter.
I'd bet if you used a good aero camper type shell
like I've described before you could cut that 20%
easily, maybe more. I don't understand why people do
not try these. Even a good normal shell will cut aero
drag 10% as has been proven. And station wagons are
almost always more aero than Sedans. And why mine is a
sportwagon.
>
> > This is power being consumed by the total
> combination of air drag,
> > road friction and all the frictional losses in the
> drivetrain. To
> > convert that back to electrical power, we'd have
> to figure the
> > efficiency of the motor and, depending on where
> the power measurement
> > was made, the controller.
>
> Measured, in my case, between the batteries and the
> controller.
A good place but at the power plug is better though
hard to find a set speed power consumption that way.
>
> > I don't think Li batteries are practical for the
> rest of us without
> > deep pockets.
>
> Maybe not now, but they are getting cheaper fast.
> This hypothetical
> vehicle isn't going to be available for a couple
> years at least, hopefully
> Li batteries will be affordable by then. (Perhaps I
> am the one being
> overly optimistic now)
The basic materials of mag electrode Li-ions are
cheap, we just need for the plants that make them ramp
up so there is competition and many plants are being
built as we speak. So the future looks bright.
>
> > That would be doable at first glance if the weight
> can be handled.
> > BUT. Now there is the issue of continuous
> charge/discharge that Lee
> > mentioned earlier. Can you cool all these
> batteries adequately? How
> > much energy is consumed in that endeavor?
Lee's point on motor overheating is important and
why I went for 2 motors of twice the power I needed so
they could handle long distance higher speed driving.
2 motors have much more surface and brush area and 2
fans for better heat disipation.
>
> Lee has a point, however...we are draining the
> batteries slwoer in this
> case (in say 4 hours instead of 30 mintues to 1
> hour) so they will have
> less heat, also you will have a continuously moving
> airstream to cool them
> while driving. Granted rapid charging them will
> create some heat, but in
If lead and charged at under 80% state of charge,
almost no heat is made from charging, discharging,
especially if you have a gen making most of the power
needed and recharging quickly. Eff approaches 98%!!!
> the short run that just improves their performance.
> Since these long
> trips aren't supposed to be all that frequent, the
> loss in life span is
> small.
Lead batts love to be used as long as they are not
abused and have a longer life in miles, not shorter.
It's batts that sit around not used that die.
>
> Still his other concerns are valid (engine and
> controller heating).
> This is one of the reasons that I'm a proponent for
> parallel hybrid schemes.
But you don't reconize as Lee does the part load
ineff of a parallel system. There is a reason ICE cars
only get 7% of their fuel to the road where EV's get
20% or even 30% with the new Co-gen gas turbine/ steam
generating plants that are 60% eff.
And depending on how you count it, 70% from RE,
wind, Hydro plants!!!
>
> > For all these reasons, a pusher trailer with the
> wheels mechanically
> > connected to the engine makes the most sense to
> me. It can be done
> > cheaply, efficiently and cleanly.
>
> This is a good idea.
Not when cost, weight, part load ineff is counted.
>
> I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle
> though for convienence.
> You don't always know when you head off to work if
> you'll need to make a
> long trip in the middle of the day. Going home for
> the trailer might not
> be practical.
> That's why I want to test my idea to see home much
> difference it makes to
> the daily power requirements to lug around the ICE.
And why I want to make my gens under 100lbs or
less than 2 batteries!! How muchwasted energy does it
take to lug 300-500lbs or more instead of 100lbs all
the time? Especially something you need rarely?
>
> >
> > A parallel hybrid setup where the gas engine
> supplies the base motive
> > power for cruise and the electric motor supplies
> acceleration and hill
> > climbing power but no cruise power would seem to
> be the best
> > configuration to me.
>
> I concure.
It's too costly, ineff, heavy for me,
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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