EV Digest 4494
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: battery temperature measurement
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ariana EV's now on sale?
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Motor improvements
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Check this out! ( balance system for full fairing motorcycle)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motor improvements
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: INVENTION ON HOW TO LEAN A CARB ENGINE.
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Newbie - Need Charging Help
by Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: battery temperature measurement
by David Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) DC/DC wiring
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Hybrid Engine-LPG+Diesel
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Details !!!! Re: Engine Generator Question
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Martin Staionette. Three passenger. Three wheel woody.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Contactor info plus blatant plug
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Saturn EV
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Schmidt glider.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re Sears Craftman Conversion - Motor Mounting Pictures
by JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Check this out!
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Check this out! ( balance system for full fairing motorcycle)
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: State of Charge calculations
by "MT" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: battery temperature measurement
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Engine Generator Question
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) A Trihawk Hybrid idea.
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: on Ebay: 2004 Toyota Prius Wrecked Salvage
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello:
>
> I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am
> wondering what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or
> protection. For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature
> sensor on each battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their
> temperature commonality could be designed in). This would work best
> during charging and could simple result in opening the charging
> circuit. For temperature monitoring during discharge, I was
thinking
> about semiconductor sensors on some sort of bus.
>
> Comments are very welcome.
>
> /Bob (eesolar) Siebert
I'm using Pb-acid, so a completely differrent thermal design. But...
A large number of thermostats in series makes for a lot of wiring, and
failure of any one can prevent you from charging. If your battery
layout is symmetrical left/right, you can probably assume at the very
least that the one on the left is the same temp as its twin on the
right. For the non-symmetrical ones, you can either use brute force
and put a sensor on each one, or monitor them for a while to see where
they fit in thermally with the rest of the pack.
You might want to reduce charging amps rather than shut down, since it
may take QUITE a while for the battery temps to fall enough for a
mechanical t'stat to reset.
For temperature monitoring, I will have 2 analog gauges; 1 outside air
temp, and 1 representative batt temp (VDO 397154 "Vision" Series, -10
to 120F). This would only be to gauge whether to turn the battery
heaters on or not. Remember, this is lead so I have a completely
different problem.
During development, I expect to have a thermocouple on 1/2 of the
batteries (+ 2 asymmetrical ones) to see what the temperature profile
and spread actually is. Then I'll know how many heating zones I'll
need. After that, there won't be a need to monitor much of anything.
Though it would be nice to have a warning light come on if a heater or
thermostat fails. Any ideas for that?
-GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if these EV's are any good? Anybody test driven one? They
appear to be taking deposits for EV's. They have a complete price list and
specs online.
Gabe Alarcon
www.ariana-ev.com<http://www.ariana-ev.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
[snip]
> Here's a question: which way is it best to blow the air thru the
ETEK? From
> the brush end or TO the brush end? With my outboard boat motor
> installation, air flow was initially from top-bottom (i.e. from
the brush
> end down). Later I changed the airflow direction to blow axially
up thru
> the motor towards the brushes. This ensured pulling cooler air
from the
> bottom of the outboard, up thru the motor, thru the fan and up
towards the
> cowling exhaust port. But there was nothing ensuring the air
would exhaust
> thru that port, and instead was allowed to recirculate in my motor
cowling
> (which slowly got warmer and warmer). This led to the addition of
an
> exhaust plenum at the top of the motor cowling above the fan----
motor and
> motor case then stayed cool.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
If you blow in through the brushes, they will stay cooler, but the
brush wear dust goes into the motor. It would be nice design the
flow path to facilitate natural convection, both for a little better
airflow and in case the fan dies you still get a small bit of
cooling.
Got your voicemail, Myles, I just returned from a long vacation...
-GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, but especially Jim Husted (hint)
I have my motor apart, and am about to throw it together again and put it
and the gearbox back into the truck so I can make sure that a bunch of
things I'm putting near the motor and gearbox don't try and occupy the same
space ;^)
I'm going to pull the motor out again later and have it balanced and stuff,
when I strip the big box out to have it sandblasted and epoxy painted. But
while I have the motor apart it's a good time to do some planning. This is
to be an errand vehicle for around town, 80km/h (50mph) top speed, but
there are steep hills here, so lots of torque is to advantage (I expect to
have to upgrade the driveline later - RWD fortunately, so should be simple).
The nameplate on the motor is series/divided, 45V, 4.5hp, 2200RPM, 1 hour,
made by Ransomes in the UK. The series/divided bit refers to the fields are
all in series, the armature is divided (paralell brushes). It had no fan
cooling at all. It's a fair lump of a motor for its' rating, 253mm (9")
diameter, 350mm (14") long, the armature windings are 280mm (11") long by
145mm (5-3/4") diameter. The brushes are 34.7mm (1.37") by 14.8mm (0.58").
I expect to be running it at up to 4500RPM at up to 120V, and have invested
in a Zilla to look after it some. The original kW conversion (4.5 * 0.745 =
3.3525kW output) at 90% efficient would be 3.725kW input, at 45V indicates
a designed current of around 82.8A continuous. I think that 400A is
probably going to be OK as a peak limit, which would give at 90V on the
motor 36kW input (compare that to the 27 peak hp of the original ICE).
So far I have set it up for an external blower, with the blower ports
coming in on each brush. The air outlet is behind the flywheel, exiting
from holes in the bell housing.
I am not sure if there would be any benefit in seperating the fields,
putting them in paralell. I think that there is maximum torque from the
series connection?
The brush cross-connections are square wire, only 4mm x 4mm (16mm2). The
armature connection wires go to one holder, then via the cross connect, so
I think that the current would not be evenly shared. I am thinking that
there could be benefit if they were bigger, but how much bigger? I have
some 3mm x 15mm copper flat bar, 45mm cross connection. If I put the
armature connection wires onto the cross-connects, that would improve the
current sharing. I intend to put larger brass bolts into the brush holders
for the holder connections - perhaps silver-soldering brass studs into the
housing and using nuts?
I am assuming the motor (due to its age) does not have high temperature
insulation (I can see what seems to be fibreglass in places). A
thermocouple in a brush holder is planned, as a quicker alarm than one
against a winding. I could add one in the exiting air stream, but I think
that the exiting air temperature would have more to do with the inlet air
temperature than the motor temperature.
I'm intending to put kevlar wrapping around the edges of the commutator.
What epoxy is reccommended to bed kevlar in? Is super-strength Araldite OK?
(I suspect it isn't since I expect 120 degrees C or more on the faces of
the comm).
Is there likely to be benefit from increasing the diameter of the motor
connections? (is 5/16" now).
I'm going to look for insulation improvements where possible, without
touching the windings theselves. I think 10 degrees or so of timing advance
(once I've worked out the neutral position) would be OK.
Jim, I went to the eis web site you listed previously (eis-inc.com) and
looked for fusa-fab you mentioned - search of their site doesn't find it. I
guess you'd be happy to supply some, but the problem I have is not being in
the US. Are you able to take a VISA card?
All comments welcome.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
1978 Daihatsu 1300kg cab/chassis truck under conversion.
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--- Begin Message ---
Yes a nice system but it's so light you might as well make flaps and put
your feet down like the Cedrick Lynch vehicle. The Ecomobile uses wheels
with a simular system. I can see that the problem is getting out and
putting up the kick stand. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: Check this out!
This is a neat idea. Look at the movie.
http://www.rosscodesigns.com/prototype.htm
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/10/05, James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All, but especially Jim Husted (hint)
> The nameplate on the motor is series/divided, 45V, 4.5hp, 2200RPM, 1 hour,
> made by Ransomes in the UK.
Hi James,
Ransomes is a lawnmower / garden machinery company. I've never
heard of a Ransomes motor before, so perhaps the one you have is
rebadged. What did it come out of, I maybe missed that?
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your friend is a bit late. Thats how the mixture control on some
ultralight aircraft engines work.
Any aircooled aircraft engine monitors cylinder head temps as
well as using exhaust gas temps. Both gauges tell you things about
the mechanical condition of the engine as well as how its running.
Dave
> My friend thought of this idea about 20 years ago. He modified
> his car and
> it worked. He monitored cylinder head temp as the leaner mixture
> raised it.
>
> Here's the idea:
>
> A vented carb has 1 atmosphere above the gas in the float bowl. It is the
> suction caused by the engine vacuum and the 1 atm. Pressure that
> caused the
> gas to be drawn into the cylinder.
>
> All he did was to take a tube to the carb float bowl and connect it to
> engine vacuum.
>
> In between he placed a needle valve. With the valve closed,
> normal. As you
> open the valve the pressure differential between the carb float bowl and
> engine vacuum is reduced and the mixture becomes leaner.
>
> BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit. It
has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
charger. The car has an analog SOC gauge and that is
it. Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
help in determining how to best charge my pack.
What steps should I take to make sure I am getting the
most from my batteries.
1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the pack
after driving (check the voltage)??
2) What are the steps in charging? I know of bulk and
finish but not sure what it all means.
3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger. I
see there is a Current setting and a Voltage setting.
How do they relate to each other?
I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger off.
I sure could use some help. I know that these are the
most basic of EV questions but I really want to
understand the process involved in properly charging
flooded batteries.
Thanks,
Joel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dallas semiconductor (acquired by maxim) made an interesting
temperature sensor. It has a single wire interface, powered by it's
data line. Furthermore, each device has a unique address so that you
can hang multiple devices off of the same line. There is also an
alarm function that I believe allows you to quickly id which device
(s) on the bus have exceeded a user define temperature limit. Here's
a link to information on the device.
http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2815/ln/en
Cheers,
David Murphy
On Jul 9, 2005, at 2:59 PM, Bob Siebert wrote:
Hello:
I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am
wondering what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or
protection. For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature
sensor on each battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their
temperature commonality could be designed in). This would work best
during charging and could simple result in opening the charging
circuit. For temperature monitoring during discharge, I was
thinking about semiconductor sensors on some sort of bus.
Comments are very welcome.
/Bob (eesolar) Siebert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally have my Zilla in hand and am ready to
do the install. I also picked up an Iota DLS-55 DC/DC
converter. It has an AC input rating of 132V, *1.33 =
175.5V DC rating. My new pack voltage is going to be
144V (24X6 US145s). With a 2.53V per cell final
charging voltage this works out to 182V. Based on
these numbers I decided to only have the DC/DC run
when the truck is "on".
My original plan was to put it on the controller
side of the main contactor. Reading the Zilla manual,
this is a no go. I am going to have a contactor on the
negative leg as well. The negative contactor will turn
on with the key, before the Hairball gets it's "start"
signal to turn on the positive contactor. Is here any
problem leaving the DC/DC connected to the + side of
the pack and use the contactor in the negative side of
the pack to turn it on and off? If not, what kind of
contactor can I get that will switch 160V dc at about
15 amps?
Thanks in advance for the info, I need to get my
electric back on the road, $58 to fill the ice, and
that's every 9 to 10 days. When I'm commuting with the
electric it goes to $58 every 45 to 60 days!
TiM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations - Eureka!!!
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:50:32 -0700
On Jul 8, 2005, at 12:13 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
No. 1^n = 1 true enough, but not so for the units:
(1 amp)^n = 1 amp^n
(If this is not obvious, consider 1ft x 1ft = (1ft)^2 = 1 ft^2.)
Hence the issue with Cp *not* having units of Ah for any value of n
other than 1.
Get OVER the parenthesis, notice the formula without any (I^n * Ti = Cp).
Someone else made a typo, or didn't understand math conventions. I didn't
understand the math level of everyone listening the first time I posted so
I wrote it out longhand with brackets around each term. We have to work
with these limitations (including sometimes differing international
standards of expression.) The worst part is that even this math is not all
that accurate - it fails to properly describe lead acid batteries
accurately at very high and very low amp discharge rates.
Paul "neon" G.
The parentheses don't matter. The units don't match- whether you use
parentheses or not around the current term.
That's because the he parentheses were only around a single term, anyway.
I^n is exactly the same as (I)^n.
In either case, the units ( which are part of the variable) are also raised
to the n power.
So, if I has units of amps, then I^n does not have units of amps, unless
n=1. ( Just as Roger explained above)
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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--- Begin Message ---
Is it possible to suck LPG or CNG etc into the intake of an idling CI
engine so as to then have a combined fuel engine? If you think there is
a likelihood of success I would give it a go with one of my CI vehicles
as an experiment. I know that a straight SI LPG engine has much higher
CR than an engine that can run on petrol or LPG.
David Sharpe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have very serious concerns about the amount of overhang on that
shaft. I would expect vibration and short bearing life. If at all
possible, I'd put a bearing on the far end of the shaft, one way or
another. I can't find a spec for the ETEK shaft side loading force
but I'd bet a burger your setup will exceed it.
I also suspect that you'll need to regear the ETEK from that of the
gas engine. The ETEK is happiest at high voltage, low current; that
is, high RPM and low torque. Especially if you keep that shaft setup,
I'd want to spin the motor as fast as I could to minimize the dynamic
side loading on the shaft.
John
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT), Mark Hastings
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted up to my craftmans tractor.
>I only had to drill one hole and it's pretty much all good to go all lined up
>and everything with existing holes.
>Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty good crawling speed
>considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
>http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/index.html
>I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and try them out after I repaint
>the mower deck.
>Mark Hastings
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 10:13:11 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Looking at your prototype and John's Ghia, I'll bet you $100 that HE has
>the lower total drag. Not only does the Ghia look like it has a smaller
>frontal area, but I also think it's has a lower Cd.
>I'll grant you that your fiberglass body looks like it has a lower Cd than
>the E-woody, but I think your .24 figure is more than a little optimistic.
>
>> For your bloated EV conversions, then yes, you
>> will need more as I've always said, about
>> 5-7kw/1,000lbs of EV depending on it's eff.
>
>I agree that lighter more aero EVs are defintely desireable (and doable).
>
>And you are definitely winning kudos for lightweight. I just don't buy
>your guestimates on Cd, but it looks like you are getting closer to
>proving it one way or the other.
I had that same concern but didn't want to sound like I was piling on
:-)
Jerry, why don't you spend some time with a scale model in a homemade
wind tunnel before you go to molds? I have some experience in ad-hoc
wind tunnel testing if you need some help. There are some good
articles in the SciAm Amateur Scientist CD regarding building and
operating small wind tunnels on a very small budget. Or maybe there
is someone on the list who could get you into a real wind tunnel. Now
is the time to do it before you spend $$$ on tooling.
>I just don't think being overly optimistic is a good way to solve this
>problem. I think being realistic is a better way to build a bussiness for
>the long term.
>This time next year I'll have enough money saved up that I won't have to
>work for a while and can devote a couple years to doing nothing but
>working on my ideas. That's when I'll start building my hybrid.
>If yours works out, I'll definitely be picking your brains for ideas.
>Especially on molds and so forth.
I strongly second that notion. IMHO, THE major problem EVs have with
the general public is that they've always promised far more than they
can deliver. Why did the GoBig guy have to claim the scooter I bought
would do over 45mph? It can't turn the wheel fast enough for that
speed sitting on a crate with the wheel freewheeling! An accurate
claim of 35 to 38 would have still made it the fastest production unit
available....
For a unique change, why not UNDERstate your car's capability so that
reviewers can brag about how much it exceeds specs?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and All,
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4560637182&rd=1
>
> Three passenger front seat. Car nuts would be
> appaled at us converting but
> it is a very unique car. Make a great glider. Way
> ahead of it's time.
Cool car!!
But no need to convert it as it would be dead
simple to copy it in wood/epoxy by most anyone who has
worked in wood or even just handy from a series of
photographs, dimensions of it.
While it may look weird in wood, before 1935, most
cars were made just like this with metal/tin tacked on
to protect the wood!! Even until the early 50's,
MGTC's and Jags XK140's and earlier ones were made
that way. The Morgan until the 70's!!
And as a well designed wood/epoxy car is so light,
strong, makes them even better than metal ones for
EV's.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 10:35:11 -0700, "Roy LeMeur"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This reversing contactor is our Special of the Week-
>http://cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1215250&PRID=1525364
>
You must have read my mind!!! I need to replace the reversing
contactor on my Citi.
Do you have any experience with this contactor operating overloaded?
I thought I might parallel 2 and see how they hold up at 400 amps
peak.
Are the contacts mechanically interlocked like the stock Citi
contactor?
Do you have the blowout coils available?
TIA,
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The GM EV-1 was leased under the Saturn brand. I'd be downright
shocked if they released another, given what they did to that :(
Probably the hybrid, as Ryan said. People often refer to hybrids as
being "electric." If only they knew what an insult that was to real
EV's...
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you can't afford a Tango. Here is an idea.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6472&item=4559729357&rd=1
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Hastings
I put up some pictures of my Tennant Etek mounted up to my craftmans
tractor. I only had to drill one hole and it's pretty much all good
to go all lined up and everything with existing holes.
Charging up the U1 battery did get me some pretty good crawling speed
considering it is a single 12v U1 battery.
http://geocities.com/evblazer/SearsCraftsmanTractorConversion/index.html
I may commision charge 10 or 20 of my BB600's and try them out after
I repaint the mower deck.
Mark Hastings
==================
Hi Mark,
I put some pict of mine too. It can give you some ideas.
This was a Craftsman II 12HP 38" Deck.
Now:
48V ETEK brush PM
Curtis 1204Z 36-48V 275A
This is my second summer of mowing with it and I just love it.
The following link is around 800K (5 pict):
http://www3.telebecinternet.com/toujc/E-Tracteur/etracteur.html
Go for it!
JCT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 8:35 PM -0400 on 7/9/05, Stu or Jan wrote:
This is a neat idea. Look at the movie.
http://www.rosscodesigns.com/prototype.htm
As I understand it the Corlena is now somewhat advanced from that
stage. Ross Cowie is on another list I'm on, and posts pretty
regularly there (the Feet Forward group on Yahoo). If you try
emailing him and get no response, don't worry. He's in China until
later in the month.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 7:03 PM -0700 on 7/9/05, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Yes a nice system but it's so light you might as well make flaps and
put your feet down like the Cedrick Lynch vehicle. The Ecomobile
uses wheels with a simular system. I can see that the problem is
getting out and putting up the kick stand. LR.........
Personally, I'm not much of an outrigger fan myself, but I have to
say there are some important differences between the Eco and the
Corlena outrigger solutions. The Eco uses fully powered arms with
wheels to maintain upright position up to about 10 or 15 MPH, mostly
because the machine is enormously heavy. The Corlena's outriggers are
manually operated and not meant to hold the vehicle for as long. They
also don't alter the width of the vehicle as the Eco's do.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cp = (10^1.25)A x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: State of Charge calculations
> > C = 200 Ahr N = 1.25
> > I20 = 200 Ahr / 20 hr = 10 A
> > Cp = (10 A)^1.25 x 20 hr = 355.6 Ahr
> >
> > This last equation is wrong. The units on both sides of an equation
> > MUST be the same, for the equation to be correct. Here, we have Ah
> > on the right side, and (A) ^1.25-h on the left.
>
> Look, guys: Puekert's equation is empirical; it just fits an equation to
> the curve you get when you actually discharge lead-acid batteries at
> different currents. It's not defining some deep law of physics.
>
> > No engineer would even write out an "equation " like that.
>
> Of course we do. Engineers use "rule of thumb" equations all the time.
> Almost all simple equations are just approximations that work "good
> enough" for most cases. We only include the minor terms when precision
> is needed, or when the conditions are far out of the ordinary.
> --
> *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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Thanks, GT:
You're right about the wiring issues and keeping a bad sensor (one
that reads hot when its not) from interrupting charging. Physical
layout is important as is the ability to compare one battery with
another. Still thinking.
Thanks.
/Bob
On Jul 9, 2005, at 6:35 PM, acid_lead wrote:
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello:
I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am
wondering what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or
protection. For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature
sensor on each battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their
temperature commonality could be designed in). This would work best
during charging and could simple result in opening the charging
circuit. For temperature monitoring during discharge, I was
thinking
about semiconductor sensors on some sort of bus.
Comments are very welcome.
/Bob (eesolar) Siebert
I'm using Pb-acid, so a completely differrent thermal design. But...
A large number of thermostats in series makes for a lot of wiring, and
failure of any one can prevent you from charging. If your battery
layout is symmetrical left/right, you can probably assume at the very
least that the one on the left is the same temp as its twin on the
right. For the non-symmetrical ones, you can either use brute force
and put a sensor on each one, or monitor them for a while to see where
they fit in thermally with the rest of the pack.
You might want to reduce charging amps rather than shut down, since it
may take QUITE a while for the battery temps to fall enough for a
mechanical t'stat to reset.
For temperature monitoring, I will have 2 analog gauges; 1 outside air
temp, and 1 representative batt temp (VDO 397154 "Vision" Series, -10
to 120F). This would only be to gauge whether to turn the battery
heaters on or not. Remember, this is lead so I have a completely
different problem.
During development, I expect to have a thermocouple on 1/2 of the
batteries (+ 2 asymmetrical ones) to see what the temperature profile
and spread actually is. Then I'll know how many heating zones I'll
need. After that, there won't be a need to monitor much of anything.
Though it would be nice to have a warning light come on if a heater or
thermostat fails. Any ideas for that?
-GT
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On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 10:39:43 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I prefer having the ICE mounted in/on the vehicle though for convienence.
>You don't always know when you head off to work if you'll need to make a
>long trip in the middle of the day. Going home for the trailer might not
>be practical.
>That's why I want to test my idea to see home much difference it makes to
>the daily power requirements to lug around the ICE.
I would too, if it were practical. If you can live with 4kw, plus or
minus, that Generac Impulse inverter generator power head would be
very nice. It's completely self-contained and small enough to stick
over in the corner of the trunk. Without the inverter it weighs about
80 lbs. I found the built-in muffler inadequate so I added another
one on my motorhome which represented another 15 lbs or so. If you
include the inverter and muffler, the weight is still only around
120lbs. The inverter would be nice - 4kw of 120vac sine wave power
(<1% THD) on tap at any time. The output of the head is polyphase
high frequency, high voltage AC. Add some diodes and you can go
directly to your high voltage pack. Or for lower voltage packs, feed
a PFC charger.
I got a factory refurb (0.5 hours on the Hobbs) from
http://www.advrv.com a couple of years ago for about $1200 including
shipping. Very cheap $$ per kw. Heck, for that price you could get
two and mount one on each side. To balance out the weight :-)
If you develop a serious interest in this unit, I'd be happy to drag
out the test gear and scope mine out for you. I'm curious too, but so
far not enough to haul out the scope :-)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Let me first state that Jerry has really convinced me that a 2F1R is the way
to go.
Thanks, Jerry.
The 2F1R Trihawk design is our starting point.
Light weight, great handling, aero, efficient.
72/28 distribution.
What more could you ask for?
How about this?
Electric front end, engine in rear.
A 15-20 Kw setup in front, and a 10 hp rear ICE with freewheel.
A commuter car for 25 miles or even lighter if going to work and recharging
there.
Run out of juice? Start up your rear engine.
Wanna drag? Use both.
The Trihawk is about 1,300 pounds. I believe that a car designed for local
commuting with occasional max speeds of 65 could be made lighter.
BoyntonStu
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--- Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just bought one of the runaboutcycle trikes. it has
not been delivered but is in transit from mass to so
cal. when it arrives I will install the li-ion batts
and give it a test and report back to the list. at
the same time I am developing a lighter trike that
will share the li batts. eventually i will add
fairing and solar panels and go on tour so when i get
a reasonable product i will bring it arround to any
interested individuals or groups, hopefully by this
fall or next spring.
keith van sickle
619 980 2001
> I made one with a SINGLE CARB. See
> www.stulieberman.com for my 31cc Honda 4
> stroke recumbent hybrid.
>
> Boyntonstu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 6:28 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
>
> TdS Report #74: Runabout Cycles
>
> When most people think about "practical hybrid
> electric vehicles" they think
> about
> cars, trucks and maybe buses.
> There is another category where the hybrid fuel is
> carbs; the hybrid cycle.
>
> Josh Kerson came to the Tour de Sol in 2002 to show
> us his personal project,
> "The Spincycle" recumbent tricycle.
> Now he has a business in Sunderland Massachusetts
> selling its successors named RunAbout Cycles.
> Elana Hurwitz told me about the two models they were
> displaying at the Auto
> Show.
>
> When I saw the vehicle at the 2004 Tour they were
> beginning to install a
> Valance lithium ion battery-plus-charger module on
> the bike.
> "We sometimes charge that bike using solar panels."
> The electric drive provides assistance to the rider.
> The sign claims:
> 40 - 50 miles range
> 20 miles per hour
>
> "We have a thumb throttle to operate the electric
> motor. This is a very
> stable
> bike that centers the riders weight. There are disk
> brakes and a full
> suspension.
> As you pedal
> or brake you are putting charge back into the
> battery with regenerative
> braking.
>
> "Shifting gears is the same as on a traditional
> bike. The pedaling turns
> the
> rear wheels and the motor adds power to the rear
> wheels with a separate
> chain.
> Of course you can pedal alone, but using the assist
> you can climb hills,
> pull
> a lot of weight.
> You can use the motor to back up.
> The frame is made of aircraft quality 4130 chromolly
> steel tubing.
> You have meters that tell you about the level of
> your battery.
> The wheels can be changed for different types of
> terrain and surfaces."
> For instance wider tires for sandy surfaces.
> All the wheels are on quickly removed hubs, making
> it easy to repair tires.
> And there is a parking brake.
>
> The current bike with the lithium ion battery is
> about 265 pounds.
> Josh is working on a lighter weight frame, closer to
> bicycle frame style,
> that
> will weigh a lot less; under 100 pounds.
> Another model we have on display here has a
> stainless steel, more ergonomic
> seat design.
> That specific bike is being customized so the seat
> and handle bars will fit
> her
> body.
>
> One market for these tricycles is for handicapped
> people who rides scooters.
> The scooters are limited to 200 pounds and are not
> street legal.
> These trikes can carry more weight and are legal in
> the street, so they can
> go
> to the store, the park and get around town.
>
> Josh told me, "My customers tell me that their lives
> changed for them.
> They now have the ability to get around their
> neighborhood, get around their
> local town, ride their bike alongside the kids, even
> for a customer with
> degenerative leg muscle disease. They are getting
> exercise and socializing
> using a clean and quiet transportation." The active
> elderly and handicapped
> looks to be a strong part of their market.
>
> RunAboutCycles.com
>
> - - - -
> The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2005
> can be found at:
>
> http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005
> The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be
> found at:
>
>
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
> - - - -
> The above is Copyright 2005 by Michael H. Bianchi.
> Permission to copy is granted provided the entire
> article is presented
> without modification and this notice remains
> attached.
> For other arrangements, contact me at
> +1-973-822-2085 .
> - - - -
> For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page
> at
> http://www.TourdeSol.org
> - - - -
> Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available
> from the sponsor,
> the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
> (NESEA) at
> 413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield,
> MA 01301 , and
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be
> addressed to ...
>
> Jack Groh
> Tour de Sol Communications Director
> P.O. Box 6044
> Warwick, RI 02887-6044
>
> 401 732-1551
> 401 732-0547 fax
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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Well,
I don't agree to the last statement, why junk a good hybrid car?
Actually I drive a Prius that had comparable front-end damage
(but no back side issues) though it was the older model (02)
Still, between the air bags, bumper, hood, lights, fenders,
radiator and the body work I also spent close to $5000.
With the $6500 on the Ebay purchase, I now have a fairly new
(was 12k miles) super-efficient car under $12k that came as
close to an EV but still had the range and was the only option
that could safely move a family (Prius is 5-seater, Insight only 2).
BTW - this 2004 went for 8k+ so apparently somebody else saw the
value as well.
I had no problem insuring my car, even with me being a foreigner
(Visum situation) or the car's Salvage title.
The insurance man sure did want to see the car, but gave me a
good deal, actually even acknowledged the years of good driving
record from my Dutch insurance.
Of course the Ebay descriptions are always downplaying the issues
the car has - this one for example did not list the damaged door.
My car also had many more issues than listed (AC and all plastic
bottles broken due to the engine "jump up", cracks in windshield)
but still it was worth it - second hand they still do 17k+ and I
do not intend to sell this car ever - I may modify its electrical
system to give it more "EV" behaviour, but I will first concentrate
on my BMW conversion, then think about optimizing the Prius.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 3:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: on Ebay: 2004 Toyota Prius Wrecked Salvage
WOW!
Lightly wrecked is an understatement! The body panels for that would run in
the thousands and with it being a newer vehicle would be hard to find in a
yard. Probably better to find something with catastophic engine failure
like I did. My daughter had a Saturn that got the front end torn up like
that and it took over $5000 to fix it. After that the insurance co
cancelled her. It is obviously in the junkyard for a good reason.
IMHO
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: on Ebay: 2004 Toyota Prius Wrecked Salvage
>I just found this on Ebay, thought someone in Califoria might be
>interested.
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=798349280
7&category=6763
>
> --------------
> "This is a lightly wrecked 2004 Prius with 15,372 miles. "
> Current bid: US $10.50
> Time left: 4 days 10 hours
> Item location: Carmichael, California
>
> ---------------
>
> Michael Shipway
> Maryland, USA
>
>
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