EV Digest 4502
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Motor cycle for electric
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Motor cycle for electric
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Stupid questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Motor cycle for electric
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) New EM pictures
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) AVS Service information
by "David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Plastic welder
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: battery temperature measurement
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) how many amps?
by Iron Mountain Films <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New EM pictures
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Small AC motor question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Easy aero MC improvements, Re: New EM pictures
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Motorcycle rear and swing axle.
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Bearings for clutch motors, Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing
Motor?)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: DC/DC
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Bearings for clutch motors, Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing
Motor?)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
That said, I still have an image of John soaking in energy
from LiIon cells (made in my garage). John may decide to
include it to his site :-)
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/li-ion_plasma-1a.jpg
Victor
Ralph Merwin wrote:
John,
I like your web pages. Nice and clean, without the use of busy flashing,
dancing, distracting web widgets. That said, your Plasma Boy picture needs
an animated GIF that has the lightning in the plasma ball moving around...
Also, you need some pictures and stories of stuff you've blown up! You don't
to use the phrase "...we blow things up, so you don't have to" without some
proof! ;-) That blob of fused batteries laying next to the driveway comes
to mind.
Ralph
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris, does this motor has its model# stamped on it?
Christopher Zach wrote:
The AC in the Prizm pulls about 4amps at 300 volts running. Or about
1,200 watts. The payoff is a car that's cool in about a minute or so;
it's very hyperactive.
The motor is a 1hp, 300 volt brushless DC motor direct coupled to a
sanden compressor on one end and direct to pack on the other.
Chris
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon Henry wrote:
> >I hope you give this a try. So far no one to my knowledge has made an EM
> >with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use. (Though
> some
> >have come close, and could get there easily). Someone needs to. Chris
> >
> >
>
> If this is what you hope to see, then suggesting he use lead for batteries
> makes no sense. The only thing available that has a shot of getting true
> motorcycle like performance are some big Kokam LiPolys. Sure he can slap
> a
> bunch of Hawkers on there and make it out accelerate a car, but the batts
> will be pooped out after the second or third stop light.
Hi Damon,
I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of credit for
experience. But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm thinking
of. I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be legitimate,
but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're starting
with a performance bike. What I've described would be a 600 lb. bike with
well over 100 horsepower. Not a record-setter, but certainly respectable.
I don't know why you think it will have poor range. In a car, 50% of your
weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range. Obviously the weight of
the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
aerodynamics really stink at highway speed. But still, it should have at
least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that. Unfortunately we don't have
a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.
> Besides if you
> have ever seen these gasser sports bikes at the drag strip compared to
> Nedra
> motorcycles, the performance is not even close. I believe it was Brian
> Hall
> that I saw break into the 100mph club at Woodburn. I regularly see sports
> bikes running in the 8's and 9's and close to 140mph on the nights I go
> see
> Wayland race at PIR. They run at these speeds all night long, then the
> owners ride them home.
I'm not talking about tweaked drag bikes and street racers. I'm talking
about a bone stock sport bike beating all but the top handful of NEDRA
competitors, car or motorcycle. Most people have no idea how fast current
sport bikes are. Their first experience is usually a *severe* sensory
overload. To a knowledgeable sport bike rider, an EM is likely to be a real
letdown unless some effort is made to retain some genuine grunt.
> I have put a couple of thousand miles on my EM and couldn't be happier
> that
> I built it. It accelerates about the same as an average car, tops out ot
> 60mph, and gives me a good 15 to 20 mile range. It still looks like a
> real
> motorcycle, and I can give my kids or wife a ride.
I think that's absolutely fabulous. As an older standard motorcycle it has
no pretensions of performance. It's a great errand runner,
knock-around-towner and conversation starter. Thanks for building it.
Beyond the enjoyment you get from it, we all benefit.
Maybe I've been warped. My motorcycle involvement was in southern
California where the intensity of the sport bike crowd ran pretty high. I
still think that any vehicle, car or motorcycle, that starts out with a
performance reputation had better keep its dignity after being converted to
an EV. Otherwise we aren't doing the cause any good.
> I have never met a
> motorcycle guy who didn't think it was cool, especially when they take it
> for a ride.
Cool as in interesting, enlightening, unusual, surprising? Certainly. Or
cool as in I want one? Probably not. Face it, performance is a much bigger
factor for motorcyclists than it is for car drivers. All I'm suggesting is
to consider your audience.
Chris
BTW, one EM that I think is almost up to motorcycle-appropriate performance
is the good Reverend Gadget's EMW. Twenty-four 12 V Hawkers, but running at
only 72 V. Great lunge at the bottom that fizzles out to zip on the
highway. Rev, when are you going to rewire that thing for 144 V and stick
in a matching Curtis? Inquiring speed junkies want to know! ;^)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Damon,
I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of credit for
experience. But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm thinking
of. I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be legitimate,
but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're starting
with a performance bike. What I've described would be a 600 lb. bike with
well over 100 horsepower. Not a record-setter, but certainly respectable.
I don't know why you think it will have poor range. In a car, 50% of your
weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range. Obviously the weight of
the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
aerodynamics really stink at highway speed. But still, it should have at
least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that. Unfortunately we don't
have
a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.
That range sounds about right on a warm day when you are taking it easy. I
guess the point that I was trying to make, is that with an EM the classic do
you want range, or speed, or handling paradox is even more exagerated. Due
to Puekerts effect, cold weather penalties, and weight and placement issues,
lead is the worst choice for batteries on an EM that is trying to be
something close to what the original motorcycle was.
I totally agree with you on keeping a sports bike sporty, however. You just
said that you wouldn't do it unless it could be done right and that no one
has quite gotten it right yet. I don't think you can get it right without
some very nice batteries, and the only available choice right now that seems
to fit the bill are the Kokams.
I finally gave up on having it all on my motorcycle and decided to make it
as useable and nice as I could until I can splurge on the right batteries.
It's unlikely that I will be spending $7000 dollars on batteries anytime
soon however. For now I am taking care of everything else and enjoying it
for what it is.
In general I think EM's feel faster then they really are. This is because
there is only one powerband, and you are always in it. You can always feel
the motor pulling, and just a slight twist of the wrist makes it pull even
harder. I think this plus the unusual quite is what makes motorcycle people
really enjoy riding mine even if it is not as quick as a normal motorcycle.
Of course mine only started out as a 250, so performance wise there is
probably not that huge of a difference from stock. It barely ran when I
first bought it, so I don't have anything to compare it to.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Question 2: How do you foresee things working in the future, when
>> most everyone has an electric or a hybrid? Do you foresee lots
>> of electric traction motors needing lots of servicing, rebuilding,
>> etc?
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Consider what's inside the motor. DC: Replace the brushes when they
> wear out. The 2 bearings on the shaft should last a very, very long
> time. Not a big deal to replace anyways. AC: no brushes, just 2
> bearings..
You're right; lots of consumer products have electric motors that can
run for years without maintenance. If/when they do need service, it is
relatively easy to fix them. Though most people don't bother, because
it's also cheap to replace them.
But Detroit has proven to be amazingly adept at building cheap motors
that quickly wear out, and are expensive and difficult to fix. There are
already a dozen or more electric motors in a modern car; starter,
alternator, radiator fan, heater blower, windshield wiper, fuel pump,
power windows, mirrors, seats and other gadgets, etc. It is common for
one or more of them to fail before the ICE needs rebuilding.
So, my gloomy side says they will find a way to make electric motors
just as unreliable and expensive to fix.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I have a 120v 20 battery pack. Weighs 1400 pounds. Lee recommended
> 1000uf and check again. What is the problem of putting in a few
> thousand?
No direct harm; the more, the merrier.
However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With
perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all
the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not
the batteries.
However, real capacitors also have resistance, called ESR on the data
sheets (Equivalent Series Resistance). Capacitor ESR diverts ripple
current back to the batteries. ESR also produces heat, making the
capacitors get hot. It ultimately determines the maximum ripple current
that the capacitor can stand without overheating.
So, your goal is a capacitor with:
a. At least 1000uF of capacitance.
b. An ESR at least as low as your batteries ESR.
For example, an Optima has an ESR of about 0.003 ohms.
A pack of 10 has a total ESR of 10x0.003 = 0.03 ohms.
Add 20 connections at 0.001 ohm each = 0.05 ohms total.
So you want a capacitor with an ESR of 0.05 ohms or less.
c. A ripple current rating of at least 1/4th your motor current.
400 amp motor current means the controller is switching between
0 and 400, which is +/-200 amps peak AC ripple, which is about
100 amps RMS.
What you'll find is that its easy to find a 1000uF electrolytic
capacitor; but its ESR will be 1 ohm and its ripple current rating is
only 5 amps. Just one provides the capacitance, but you'd need 20 of
them in parallel to satisfy the ESR and ripple current requirements.
This is what you see in many controllers; a large number of cheaper
electrolytics, with far more capacitance than needed just to get the
ripple and ESR ratings.
Or, oil-filled paper or polypropylene film capacitors can easily meet
the ESR and ripple current requirements; but their capacitance is low. A
big metal can oil-filled capacitor can have 20uF of capacitance, 0.1 ohm
ESR, and a 25-amp ripple current rating. You'd need only 4 of them for
ESR and ripple, but 50 to get the capacitance. These capacitors would be
a lot larger and more expensive than electrolytics. So what you see in
some controllers are a smaller number of electrolytics (just to get the
capacitance), in parallel with a smaller number of oil or film
capacitors (to get the ESR and ripple ratings).
That's why I suggested that you experiment.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> BTW, one EM that I think is almost up to
> motorcycle-appropriate performance
> is the good Reverend Gadget's EMW. Twenty-four 12 V
> Hawkers, but running at
> only 72 V. Great lunge at the bottom that fizzles
> out to zip on the
> highway. Rev, when are you going to rewire that
> thing for 144 V and stick
> in a matching Curtis? Inquiring speed junkies want
> to know! ;^)
I'm thinking of putting in my Zilla just to see what
she will do before I take it apart to build a new
frame. I'm building a new frame from the ground up,
more of a custom, very low chopper.
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20. It's the DC
fuse holder and I need the fuse also. Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them to
my webpage.
http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone on the list know where to get service manuals-information on
the hybrid-electric buses manufactured by AVS in Chattanooga, Tn???
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 13, 2005, at 10:33 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter, will
drop
your range by %20.
Big losses for simple reasons...
I agree with most of what you wrote but not your result. Let me set the
stage using my Buggy -
alternator:
1 hour run time (pretty long for a 20 mile 100% DOD range)
10 Optimas (not to many watts hours on board)
Alternator with belt drive is 36% efficient (60% alternator and belt
drive)
14 volt output (used for both the Todd and Alternator numbers)
Full 20 amps for the hour (unlikely the Todd could do this)
= result of 6.5 Ah used (about 20% of range)
Todd DC>DC:
Everything above the same except I will assume that Todd is 90%
efficient
= result of 2.6 Ah used (about 8% of range)
So the worst case I can come up with is about 12% range loss. However,
that is not totally accurate because anytime I was stopping I could
still get power from the alternator without any pack power used (some
of the time is "free".) In practice I can't realistically using more
than 15 amps continuously and that is at night (headlights on.) That
takes the range loss down to 9%. Of course most cars can use more amps
(a lot more), but most are also taking it out of a considerably larger
capacity pack. Anyway, that v belt drive gets more efficient at higher
power levels (they have a rather steep no load power demand.) Another
consideration is to switch to a modern serpentine belt system saving
some of that power. To go with the modern belt drive I would suggest a
modern alternator - they put out more more is a smaller package so they
had better be more efficient (they tend to be poorly air cooled after
all.)
I considered a belt driven alternator in the EV Buggy. But the Todd
DC>DC converters where widely available back then and I found a
Pretolite motor with a real pretty end bell (and no tail shaft.) I was
going to set it up with the alternator strait above the motor and use a
chrome plated louvered VW Beetle (aftermarket) fan belt cover.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
However, the goal here is to reduce the battery ripple current. With
perfect zero-resistance capacitors, 1000uF is plenty because almost all
the controller's ripple current will then flow in the capacitors, not
the batteries.
may I ask a bone-head question?:
how is it, exactly, that the capacitors intercept/contain/filter out the
ripple current? what is happening with the electrons/holes, etc?
...somehow, after a couple decades of hammering my head against it, I
have still failed to gain an intuitive understanding of how electronic
work at the fundamental component level...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey wrote:
> A few of us may recall some idiot at the Power of DC running a 3/8"
> drill bit up through the bottom of a baby Hawker... Well, that idiot
> repaired the battery (no internal damage, thankfully) by stealing
> some plastic from the case of an old battery and melting into a pool
> in the hole of the baby Hawker, using of all things, a soldering
> iron. It smoked and stunk. But, it worked.
We are using Hawker SBS60 sealed lead-acids for our kid's BEST EVs (see
www.bestoutreach.org). The students and mentors have done some amazing
worst-case testing. For instance:
One of the batteries was dropped 3-4 feet onto a concrete floor. The
case split open along the entire length of one vertical edge, with
several pieces broken completely out at the corner. The battery didn't
leak, and worked anyway, delivering normal capacity.
Instead of recharging it, they let it sit around a couple months. When I
got it back, it was about 6 ounces lighter than normal. I added 6 ounces
of distilled water to the dried-out cell, and glued the case back shut
with plumber's ABS plastic pipe glue. It was still mostly dead, so I
recharged it. The charge cycle proceeded normally, except that I had to
restrain the broken end of the case with a metal plate and fiberglass
tape as it pressurized at full charge.
Results: It survived. Amphour capacity is down to 30ah at 25amps, where
normal ones from this batch are more like 40ah at 25amps.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I used uChip's linear temp sensor (TC1047A if I recall) if you
> don't want to linearize in software. In general, silicon PTC
> sensors are my preferred choice.
I agree. PTC sensors are basically just resistors that change their
value with temperature. It's very hard to hurt them environmentally,
mess them up due to noise.
PTCs have such a large resistance change with temperature that you can
often just connect a long string of them in series, and if any one gets
hot, it opens the circuit much like a bimetal switch.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
On the BC-20 that I have, the previous own just replaced that fuse with a
rectangular fuse that he tucked inside the case. Seems to work fine. Let
me know if you'd like to see a picture.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist
Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20. It's the DC
fuse holder and I need the fuse also. Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bill-
If by "rectangular fuse" you mean the bladed (ATC?) automotive type
fuse, then this is NOT fine. These fuses are rated for only 32VDC and
will arc and melt and potentially catch fire if used at typical EV
traction pack voltages. My mother's EV suffered from just such a fire
because the previous owner had used these bladed fuses for the low
power/high voltage fuse box!
I strongly recommended that you get high-voltage rated fuses!
Be safe.
cheers,
Andrew
Bill Dennis wrote:
Lawrence,
On the BC-20 that I have, the previous own just replaced that fuse with a
rectangular fuse that he tucked inside the case. Seems to work fine. Let
me know if you'd like to see a picture.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 2:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist
Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20. It's the DC
fuse holder and I need the fuse also. Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> ;
Zappylist<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:44 PM
Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20. It's the DC
fuse holder and I need the fuse also. Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
415-821-3519
Go to Radioshack.com . This is a commercial division of which you can get
more of a heavy duty items than from Radio Shack in your town.
Or if you have a industrial electrical supply house, they have heavy duty 600
volt rating fuse holders, panel mounted or track mount like a terminal strip.
I have those with a fuse indicator that lites up when blown.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]> ;
Zappylist<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:44 PM
Subject: K & W BC 20 broke DC fuse holder
Where can I get that nifty pop out fuse holder for the BC 20. It's the DC
fuse holder and I need the fuse also. Thanks.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
That said, I still have an image of John soaking in energy
from LiIon cells (made in my garage). John may decide to
include it to his site :-)
Not to disparage your retouching skills.. but can we get the original image?
Thanks
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many amps at 120 volts can a stock adc 8" motor take?
I know the ratings for 5 minutes, 1hour and constant, but what about 5 or 10
seconds at a time. Does voltage sag from batteries jack up the amperage that a
motor sees? I currently have a 96v civic 16) x 6v It has a curtis 1231c 7701
that has overheated (heat sink fan failed) and it popped its endcap. It still
works fairly well but I seem to lose power after it heats up. I am trying to
choose a new controller and am leaning toward a 1K zilla LV. Is this
controller overkill? I am looking for range and decent performance less than
or equal to stock gas civic.
On my next battery purchase I want to go to 136 volts 17) x 8v. and I am
wondering where I would set the amps limit. I read about racers dumping large
amounts of amps into these motors, but I am assuming they are modified.
Currently I have trouble just getting to freeway speeds I pull 300 350 battery
amps sometimes less trying to accelerate. Will a Zilla change that or are the
batteries the limiting factor?
Thanks
-Mike 92 honda Civic
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much weight do you have in that black box?
How did that change the handling compared to
the arraingement you had before?
Rod
P.S. Cool looking bike! My BB600's are still in the
boxes in my garage, all 248 of them (I did a
commishioning charge on 2 of them, 56 Ahr for each).
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's
> mounted and added them to
> my webpage.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>
> I am much happier with the way it looks with these
> batteries. The only
> downside is that people rarely notice that it is
> electric now :-(
>
> damon
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> What might be the min/max hz a motor could be ran at? What's the
> deal about the windings being wound for "50/60 hz" and what happens
> if other hz are used? What happens when the volts/amps going into
> the motor are adjusted? How does that effect it?
All motor nameplates just give you one operating point. If you apply
this voltage/frequency, then you will get this current/rpm/horsepower.
This one data point is usually somewhere near the "optimum" for best
efficiency and life (where "life" depends on the intended application).
But, you can apply many other voltages/frequencies, and the motor still
runs just fine. But its performance changes accordingly.
Let's assume you are talking about an ordinary consumer-grade AC
induction motor.
- Frequency is the primary determiner of speed (rpm). Halve the
frequency, and it runs half as fast; double the frequency and
it doubles the speed, etc.
- The maximum frequency is limited by the mechanical strength of
the rotor. Spin it too fast, and it flys to pieces. Normal
consumer stuff can survive to 5000-8000 rpm. If the motor is
rated (say) 3600 rpm and can survive 7200 rpm, then you can
run it at up to 60hz x 2 = 120hz.
- The maximum current is set by the winding resistance. The more
the current, the hotter the motor gets. The limit comes when the
insulation on the wire burns up and fails. If you go above rated
current, you need to increase cooling or shorten the running time.
It is common to run much higher currents, as long as you do so for
a short enough time so it doesn't have time to overheat.
- The maximum voltage is set by how good the winding insulation is.
Most consumer-grade motors are UL listed, which means a 120vac
motor must survive at least 10 times this voltage. This is done
to be sure it can survive power surges, transients, lightning
strikes, etc.
- The maximum temperature is limited by the motor's insulation
(and sometimes by the grease or oil in the bearings). Common
motor insulation is limited to 130 deg.C or 180 deg.C.
So, you pick the frequency to determine the speed. Then you pick the
voltage and frequency to actually reach that speed with the given load.
AC induction motors generally vary the voltage and frequency together.
If it is rated (say) 120vac and 60hz, then at 120hz you need to apply
240vac. The current draw at double the frequency and voltage will
basically be unchanged, and the motor won't run any hotter. The motor
might last half as long simply because its bearing will wear out twice
as fast.
If you reduce the voltage (at a given frequency), you have to reduce the
load on the motor or it will stall. If it can still maintain speed with
the reduced voltage, it will also draw less current.
If you raise the voltage (at a given frequency), it can support a
heavier load but will overheat sooner.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi Damon and All,
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's
> mounted and added them to
> my webpage.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>
> I am much happier with the way it looks with these
> batteries. The only
> downside is that people rarely notice that it is
> electric now :-(
It looks much better but lacks range it could
easily have.
I'd cut the forward lower frame tubes at the
bottom and bend them forward then put in 2 inserts to
reconnect them back should give you enough room to
double your batt cap and still keep them in the frame
and looking good.
Next is make 2- 1/2 round brackets of SS like MC
windshields do and attached to the unsprung part of
the front forks low and the handlebars high well raked
to hold a U shaped fairing with the top of the U
facing aft and just wide enough to keep your body,
bike in it's wind shadow. But better to be too wide
than too narrow!!
It should be as low as the frame is and as high as
your forehead and rounded from side to side over the
top like most bike windsheilds are and round the
bottom the same way.
It could be made from 1/16-3/32 clear lexan so
not to change the looks of the bike much as you'd like
it not too.
This is quite simple and should give you quite
good range of about 50% better at speed for the front
fairing and possibly 2x more than that for the second
battery string if used.
Or one could go for more voltage single string
for better power and still keep most of the range if
you don't go faster but there when you want it.
You asked for easy and increased range without
changing the looks much so here is a way to do just
that.
If both are done, you could go to Wayland's house
and back without charging and many other places
making your EV MC much more useful and comfortable in
those NW rains, cold and easier to hold on at your new
higher speeds!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
BTW, keep the batts out of the sun as sunlight will
eat the cases up!!
>
> damon
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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Sure - just take out "a" at the end of URL:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/li-ion_plasma-1.jpg
Victor
Mark Farver wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
That said, I still have an image of John soaking in energy
from LiIon cells (made in my garage). John may decide to
include it to his site :-)
Not to disparage your retouching skills.. but can we get the original
image?
Thanks
Mark Farver
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Motorcycle rear and swing axle for a 2F1R (Jerry)?
I visualize a motor on one side and an ICE on the other with variable pulley
drives, no brakes.
Would this be feasible as far as being able to fit it in between the swing
arms?
BoyntonStu
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Hi all,
I've been out of town for a while and just catching up around here...
David Roden Wrote (7/5/2005):
I've often wondered whether the industrial and forklift DC motors we
usually use in conversions are really up to handling the considerable
thrust exerted parallel to the motor shaft when an automotive clutch
is disengaged.
Paul Compton Wrote (7/5/2005):
Not this old chestnut again! The motors we use have single row deep
groove bearings at both ends of the armature. These are quite capable
of taking thrust loads although the comm end bearing is usually able
to 'float' in its housing to accomodate thermal expansion.
Interesting stuff to know. It never occurred to me that the force from
the clutch throwout bearing might negatively affect the life of the
motor bearings. Oh well, I'm just going to cross my fingers that the new
bearings I installed will last a long time (because there's no way in
hell I'm taking all that apart again anytime soon) :-)
jerry dycus wrote:
> And a great reason not to use a clutch since you will be rarely
> shifting gears anyways, though Nick would need more shifting in his
> rather heavy EV.
For me having the clutch is a must. Thanks to the Zilla's high power, I
can start out it 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) gear if I want. However, by
doing so I heat up my motor and Zilla _really_ quick... so I don't do
it. I always start in 1st gear and work my way up (while trying to
maintain high motor speed for efficiency). Of course, now that I have my
new transmission installed, my Jeep behaves differently (different shift
points, etc..), so I'm trying to learn the best way to drive it again.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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Thanks to all, this is starting to take shape
First of all it looked like Garret Maki's 84 Yamaha FJ1100 "piggy" It
sounds like the ADC 6.7 volt is a good fit or the pair of eteks.
I am not light, so undersizing the motors would be an error.
Jerry said fairing double range at speed, WOW!
I do like the idea of series/parallel, do 2 eteks in series (electrical)
have more torque than a 6.7?
The batteries in the saddle bags is an awsome idea, it looks right and
gives me 2 more batteries.
Thanks Jerry, I wasn't thinking about the different windings for the
6.7, good point.
It seeems like getting enough batteries on board for decent range is the
real challenge.
Hey rich, do you have BLDC motors and controllers that would do nicely
on a MC?
I will have to do some calculations on just how much torque I need.
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Hi,
Tim M Wrote:
I also picked up an Iota DLS-55 DC/DC converter. -snip- Based on these
numbers I decided to only have the DC/DC run when the truck is "on".
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I *had* my Iota DC/DC converters switched on by these relays: I say
> "had" the Iota connected using relays because I have recently changed
> that. I got tired of wearing down my 12V SLI, and my pack during
> charging only goes up to about 172V - right about at the limit that
> the Iota likes to see, but not exceeding it.
I just wanted to comment that I feel the same way as Ryan regarding this
issue. Back when all was good and I was using my DCP DC/DC converter
(before it zorched itself --multiple times), I had my Jeep wired so the
DC/DC was always on. Although my DC/DC's output was typically maxed out
while driving (thanks to my constantly running MR2 pump), things worked
okay because my little 12-volt battery would get charged up fully when
the Jeep was sitting.
With my DCP unit out of commission, I ended up buying a Todd DC/DC as a
temporary (now looking like a permanent) replacement. The converter
works about as good as the DCP unit when the car is on, being that
they're both rated at 30-amps. However, right now I've got the Todd
wired so it's on only when my Jeep is on, to avoid blowing it up while
charging my pack at 194-207 volts. This arrangement leaves a lot to be
desired, as my 12-volt system never seems to be as perky as it was
before, especially when the Jeep is off. To avoid murdering my 12-volt
AGM battery, I find myself having to charge the 12-volt battery with a
stand-alone 12-volt charger after every five or six trips.... which is a
pain. My point is keep you're DC/DC converter running all the time if
you can... so you can avoid having a weak 12-volt system that you always
have to worry about.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> For me having the clutch is a must. Thanks to the Zilla's high power, I
> can start out it 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) gear if I want. However, by
> doing so I heat up my motor and Zilla _really_ quick... so I don't do
> it. I always start in 1st gear and work my way up (while trying to
> maintain high motor speed for efficiency). Of course, now that I have my
> new transmission installed, my Jeep behaves differently (different shift
> points, etc..), so I'm trying to learn the best way to drive it again.
>
Another minor point to add to this discussion. I recently replaced the bearings
in my 9" ADC with
a new set of sealed NTN bearings, $42 from a local motor shop. There was
nothing wrong, I just
felt it was worth doing before installing the motor. Prior to replacement the
bearings, the motor
running on the bench with no load would draw around 35 amps from my 12volt
NiCad pack. After
replacement the motor was only drawing 20 amps. Seems like an improvement to
me.
Dave Cover
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Hello to All,
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> At 09:33 AM 7/11/2005, you wrote:
> >Hell to All,
>
> I know the feeling. :^)
First, my apologies for the 'Hell to All' bit...damn, I've done that before,
too :-(
>
>
> I was hoping to see a picture of the Purple Phase, but, alas, just
> a white box with a red x. <sigh>
Don't give up hope, Bill. I found out just yesterday, that I've received full
sponsorship
for bodywork and paint for Purple Phaze...yes! It might be a few weeks, heck,
maybe even a
month, but the truck 'will' be cherried out, and there will be a picture of the
purple
beauty when that happens. All the other pieces are pretty much in place, so the
drag truck
will be together in no time once we have it back from the body shop.
>
>
> I was amused to see that the longest section was "Wayland's Words".
You aint seen noth'n yet :-) Right now, it's just a filler type blog. I've got
bigger
plans to make that section fun, entertaining, and hopefully, informative, but
that will
have to wait until I get my high speed cable connected in a couple more weeks.
I've got
internet writings dating back to around late '94...to the present, that's
nearly 11 years
worth!!
The 'Reviews' section is pretty much none existent right now, but it will
consist mostly
of writings by others who have experienced my EVs and EV craziness in person.
Care to send
me the write up you wrote so many years ago that covered your first ever trip
to the
Wayland EV laboratory, Bill?
Anyone else, too, is invited to send me copies of their emails about visits
here, but only
if you don't mind having them displayed at the 'Reviews' section.
More video clips are being added all the time, so keep checking in every once
in a while
to see if there's something new to watch. We hope to have the fully completed
Zombie vs
300+ hp Mustang race video ready late next week, the one that will have
spectator comments
and the interview with the Mustang driver, but we'll probably put up the
current one
that's set to AC/DC music in the next day or so. Though many of these clips are
large and
will need to be downloaded via a fast connection of some sorts, and even though
I'm
finally coming out of the dark ages with a cable modem setup soon, I'll always
remember
there are many who have dial-up slower speeds. I'll always have smaller video
clips that
won't take too much longer than 7-10 minutes per clip, for those with dial-up
accounts to
enjoy. It's really weird that right now, Tim with his DSL account is sending up
videos
that I can't possibly download without locking up my computer on the telephone
line for
hours on end.
See Ya.......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
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