EV Digest 4503
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) SLA pack on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Air conditioner etc
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Air conditioner etc
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: SLA pack on eBay
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: SLA pack on eBay
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: SLA pack on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Tach sensor stuff (was: Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor cycle for electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor cycle for electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Stupid questions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New EM pictures
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: DC/DC
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: how many amps?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) How about these for Arcane/high fuel economy.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Thermocouple position, was: Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Newbie - Need Charging Help
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Tach sensor stuff (was: Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Dymaxion, etc.
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff and Donald/dbuckshot spam
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Slow Launch
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Dymaxion, etc.
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Slow Launch
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: New EM pictures
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
One point I noticed that seems to not have been commented on:
At 03:30 PM 13/07/05 -0700, Paul "neon" G wrote:
I agree with most of what you wrote but not your result. Let me set the
stage using my Buggy -
<snip>
So the worst case I can come up with is about 12% range loss. However,
that is not totally accurate because anytime I was stopping I could still
get power from the alternator without any pack power used (some of the
time is "free".)
And then whilst you are stopped, the alternator is drawing 4 amps into the
field, negating any gains?
Or did you do something / select a particular alternator that prevents this
from occurring?
Many alternators (or more precicely the regulator) power the field even
when stopped. It has been a few years since I was intimate with
alternators, so the situation may have changed. But it does need to be
considered. If the alternator is powering its field all the time, around 50
watts being lost that if your commute is a lot of stop-and-go may add up to
a significant amount of energy.
James
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--- Begin Message ---
> Hell Jeff,
>
> This will give you some ideal of what energy it takes to run a A/C.
>
> The A/C unit is a smaller FACE MOUNTING UNIT, not the large old units that
weigh over 50 lbs.
>
> I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from
192 volts at 4 amps to run the A/C while driving the others under no load.
>
> This is with the A/C full on, while Power Steering and Alternator is not
running.
>
> The wattage would be 188 x 4 = 752 watts or close to 1 hp. If you try to run
a 12 volt motor to run the A/C than the ampere would be about 752/12 = 62
amps!! which would be a too much.
>
> You either run small drive motors off the DC battery pack or used a very large
DC/DC or DC/AC inverter of the battery pack.
>
> I could not used a large DC/AC inverter in my already large car which is jam
pack and have no more room. I would have to have a bigger car. The DC/AC
inverter to run all my accessories, is about 18 inches long by 12 inches high
and 12 inches deep which has a output of 125/250 VAC 60 Hz at 6000 watts. Which
would weigh over 100 lbs.
>
> Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot shaft
of the main motor, like a engine does. It works great. Used standard units
that you can get at any auto parts store.
>
> When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these units
fire up, the alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in
1st gear or reverse.
>
> I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I can
run these units for maintenance and testing.
>
> When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still running,
while the amp meters are reading O amps!! This is like a mechanical REGEN.
>
> In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on close to
3000 watts of heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on. This
mechanical REGEN slows me down going down a steep hill like a ICE compression
of a engine in first gear.
>
> When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any brakes,
the Mech.REGEN slows me down to a stop while generating power to the
accessories at 0 amps on battery pack!
>
> Roland
You wouldn't want your AC to be dependent on braking if you have freeway driving
in hot areas. Not that it's very efficient, but if you have a dc-dc that can
supply 70A, a PMG 070 motor (German version of a small Lynch) can handle that
much continuously (much more for short peaks). Then, if there is a way to "save
up" pressurized AC fluid (this can be done with a vacuum canister for the brakes
and an accumulator for steering fluid pressure), you wouldn't be so dependent on
braking regen to power these units.
But wouldn't it be easier to get a 1-1/2 to 2hp treadmill motor from Burden or
AmSci&Surplus? These are usually spec'd for 100-120vdc, so you could run it
directly from the pack, connect it to all 3 units (power steering and brakes,
A/C), and forgo complicated controls except an off circuit to cut power when
none of the 3 are in use. Don't know the mechanical setup, but maybe a
serpentine belt or even a chain and gears?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Buyer pays shipping? ;)
On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:47:38PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, that place is only about 10 miles away. Cool place. All sorts
of industrial liquidations. Maybe I need to drop down and take a
look.
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 21:20:47 -0700, Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Buyer pays shipping? ;)
>
>On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:47:38PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<Buyer pays shipping? ;)
On Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 08:47:38PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 144V/100Ah pack for $1K, anyone?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561892969
>>>
The listing states: We will ship this by common carrier or local pickup is free.
Email us to get a quote.
Needs a comma after the word "carrier"! Only thing free is local pickup.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Roger Stockton wrote:
Nick Viera wrote:
I have a hall-effect sensor here that should work, but have yet to
find a safe, yet affordable way to hold two magnets to my motor's
tail shaft?
Affordable is entirely subjective, but I don't know of a slicker way
than this (it is what I am using on my ADC 8"):
<http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
568>
You're right I should have defined "affordable." I agree that that
magnet collar looks like a good easy solution, I guess I just can't
believe that this has to be a $35+ solution.
Yet I can't find anyone else who sells magnet collars/holders like
this... I guess they aren't a very common item?? Though, I'm still
thinking there's got to be a way I can make a holder similar to that out
of all the leftovers parts, things, and junk in my garage...
Another thing I was looking for was a ring magnet like the kind used
with the speed sensor Otmar sells. It seems like that would work just as
good (it is a 4-pole magnet, right?), but again I can't seem to find
them sold anywhere?
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>> Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter,
>> will drop your range by %20. Big losses for simple reasons...
Paul G. wrote:
> I agree with most of what you wrote but not your result. Let me
> set the stage using my Buggy
> - 1 hour run time
> - 10 Optimas
> - Alternator with belt drive is 36% efficient (60% alternator
> and belt drive)
A v-belt is more like 90% efficient at design load. Thus a loss of 60
watts when delivering 600 watts of power. However, the loss stays fairly
constant despite load changes; so it is using up 60 watts even with no
load on the alternator.
An automotive alternator is around 60% efficient at full load. Its
efficiency is fairly constant over wide range, like most motors.
> - 14 volt output
> - 20 amp load
Ok; so you're using 14v x 20a = 280 watts out
A 60a alternator will still be 50% efficient at 20a output, so it needs
280/0.5 = 560 watts of mechanical power. Belt losses will add another 60
watts (roughly constant despite load). So with an alternator and belt
you need 560+60 = 620 watts mechanical power from the traction motor.
Now, the traction motor and controller total about 80% efficient; so you
need 620w/0.8 = 775 watts from the propulsion pack. Doing this for your
1-hour driving time uses 775wh/120v = 6.45 amphours.
> Todd DC>DC:
> - the same except I will assume that Todd is 90% efficient
> = result of 2.6 Ah used (about 8% of range)
Actually, I measured my Todd PC30 at 86% best-case efficiency, and 75%
with my 132v pack and a 25amp load (what my EV requires). 280w/0.75 =
373w in; in 1 hour it uses 373wh/120v = 3.11 amphours.
> So the worst case I can come up with is about 12% range loss.
The alternator setup uses twice the power (6.45ah vs 3.11ah). However,
this is tiny compared to the power you're using for the traction motor.
Suppose your EV is very efficient at 200 watthours/mile, and you only
drove 30 miles in that hour (30 mph); you've used 200*30 = 6000
watthours. 6000wh/120v = 50 amphours. The alternator setup reduces your
range about 13%, and the Todd DC/DC about 6% -- only a 5% difference.
And, this is an exceptionally low power consumption rate. Most EVs have
a lot larger pack, which makes the power used by the 12v system
correspondingly less.
Frankly, if I only had ten Optimas in my EV, I'd use a separate 12v
battery to power the 12v system, with *no* DC/DC or alternator. A
battery to supply that 12v 20a load for 1 hour is smaller, lighter,
cheaper, and simpler.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
toltec wrote:
> may I ask a bone-head question?:
> how is it, exactly, that the capacitors intercept/contain/filter
> out the ripple current?
Back to the good old electricity-as-water analogy. :-)
The controller is drawing current in pulses, like a water valve that is
cycling rapidly fullyopen/fullyclosed/fullyopen/fullyclosed etc. The
water in the pipe moves in jerks. This creates what plumbers call "water
hammer", which sounds like someone hammering on your pipes.
My home sprinker system does this. The sprinker heads oscillate,
producing that characteristic cha-cha-cha sound, repetitively
interrupting the spray with a little diverter to scatter the water more
evenly. But you can also hear and feel these pulsations on every pipe in
the house.
Now, water hammer is bad. Besides the noise, the pressure pulsations
stress the pipes, and can cause leaks. In bad cases, it can actually
break joints or the pipe itself! So, plumbers add a little container
with an air pocket in it. For example, a vertical length of pipe with a
cap on top, so it traps a column of air. The pressure pulses from the
water hammer now alternately compress the air in this container. So, the
flow in can be pulsating, but the flow out can be smooth. This container
is called an "accumulator", and is the water equivalent of an electrical
capacitor.
A capacitor smooths out the voltage spikes that would have resulted from
a pulsating current flow. Like an accumulator, it doesn't create or
destroy charge; it merely absorbs it during the peaks, and releases it
during the valleys.
Does that help?
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if Scott Cronk is ghosting this list but the Lectra with 4
Optimas was claimed at 20 miles. Many people complained of less. I suspect
if you kept it at a steady 25 with no stops it might be possible. That's
168 pounds of lead aprox.
300 pounds is double that or about 1/3 the vehicle weight with a 300 pound
rider to be on the heavy side. An EV with 1/3 battery weight aught to do at
least 40 miles. A motorcycle shouldn't be much different unless you exceed
45mph. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:07 PM
Subject: RE: Motor cycle for electric
Damon Henry wrote:
>I hope you give this a try. So far no one to my knowledge has made an
>EM
>with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use. (Though
some
>have come close, and could get there easily). Someone needs to. Chris
>
>
If this is what you hope to see, then suggesting he use lead for
batteries
makes no sense. The only thing available that has a shot of getting true
motorcycle like performance are some big Kokam LiPolys. Sure he can slap
a
bunch of Hawkers on there and make it out accelerate a car, but the batts
will be pooped out after the second or third stop light.
Hi Damon,
I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of credit for
experience. But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm
thinking
of. I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be legitimate,
but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're starting
with a performance bike. What I've described would be a 600 lb. bike with
well over 100 horsepower. Not a record-setter, but certainly respectable.
I don't know why you think it will have poor range. In a car, 50% of your
weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range. Obviously the weight of
the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
aerodynamics really stink at highway speed. But still, it should have at
least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that. Unfortunately we don't
have
a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.
Besides if you
have ever seen these gasser sports bikes at the drag strip compared to
Nedra
motorcycles, the performance is not even close. I believe it was Brian
Hall
that I saw break into the 100mph club at Woodburn. I regularly see
sports
bikes running in the 8's and 9's and close to 140mph on the nights I go
see
Wayland race at PIR. They run at these speeds all night long, then the
owners ride them home.
I'm not talking about tweaked drag bikes and street racers. I'm talking
about a bone stock sport bike beating all but the top handful of NEDRA
competitors, car or motorcycle. Most people have no idea how fast current
sport bikes are. Their first experience is usually a *severe* sensory
overload. To a knowledgeable sport bike rider, an EM is likely to be a
real
letdown unless some effort is made to retain some genuine grunt.
I have put a couple of thousand miles on my EM and couldn't be happier
that
I built it. It accelerates about the same as an average car, tops out ot
60mph, and gives me a good 15 to 20 mile range. It still looks like a
real
motorcycle, and I can give my kids or wife a ride.
I think that's absolutely fabulous. As an older standard motorcycle it
has
no pretensions of performance. It's a great errand runner,
knock-around-towner and conversation starter. Thanks for building it.
Beyond the enjoyment you get from it, we all benefit.
Maybe I've been warped. My motorcycle involvement was in southern
California where the intensity of the sport bike crowd ran pretty high. I
still think that any vehicle, car or motorcycle, that starts out with a
performance reputation had better keep its dignity after being converted
to
an EV. Otherwise we aren't doing the cause any good.
I have never met a
motorcycle guy who didn't think it was cool, especially when they take it
for a ride.
Cool as in interesting, enlightening, unusual, surprising? Certainly. Or
cool as in I want one? Probably not. Face it, performance is a much
bigger
factor for motorcyclists than it is for car drivers. All I'm suggesting
is
to consider your audience.
Chris
BTW, one EM that I think is almost up to motorcycle-appropriate
performance
is the good Reverend Gadget's EMW. Twenty-four 12 V Hawkers, but running
at
only 72 V. Great lunge at the bottom that fizzles out to zip on the
highway. Rev, when are you going to rewire that thing for 144 V and stick
in a matching Curtis? Inquiring speed junkies want to know! ;^)
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm thinking of putting in my Zilla just to see what
she will do before I take it apart to build a new
frame. I'm building a new frame from the ground up,
more of a custom, very low chopper.
What's going to happen to the frame and associated parts(battery boxes/cover
etc..)? I really liked what you did with the EMW. Seemed to work well for
what it was. Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> But Detroit has proven to be amazingly adept at building cheap motors
> that quickly wear out, and are expensive and difficult to fix.
>There are already a dozen or more electric motors in a modern car;
Each one of them is an odd case.
>starter,
On the Ford ones at least, I think there is a component to it that I
can't recall the name of that wears out and is not so much the actual
"electric motor" part of it that wears out.
> alternator,
Same case with this. Seems a diode or a rectifier fails in it. Also
when V belts were more common, the absurd amount of side loading belt
tension that was placed on it. Not so much of a problem anymore with
the serpentine belt.
>radiator fan
>heater blower
>power windows, mirrors, seats and other gadgets
>windshield wiper
I'm not sure what causes these to stop working, but they eventually do.
>fuel pump,
This one is very prone to going out and I'm not sure why...
>It is common for one or more of them to fail before the ICE needs rebuilding.
It's unreal the ICE can last as long as they do all things
considered.. The "bearings" are more like bushings and the amount of
contact and friction the rings have and the pistons essentially coming
to a complete stop at the top and bottom of the stroke..
> So, my gloomy side says they will find a way to make electric motors
> just as unreliable and expensive to fix.
When I look at the Electric Ranger motor I think, could they have made
it any more bizarre and proprietary? It's so unconventional looking..
http://www.mavin.com/PPD.asp?offset=20&ProductID=132
At least on the outside anyways. Very non standard and specialized.
Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors?
How much potential might that motor have if the equivalent of a 2,000
amp Zilla was available for AC?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have the
chain figured out too. LR........
I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them to
my webpage.
http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> My point is keep you're DC/DC converter running all the time if
> you can... so you can avoid having a weak 12-volt system that you always
> have to worry about.
What if you did away with the 12V accessory battery and only ran the
DC/DC to power your 12V accessories?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'84%20SEVA%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (32 megs)
On this one, when Bill Clarke gets in the car, someone says "burn it
out John". Is it Bill Clarke who then says "Don't burn it out..."?
LOL!
I like that part at the end when your reeling out that extension cord
out of where the fuel filler was and it switches back to that news
anchor woman. The expression on her face is priceless. Her eyes are
huge! I think that scene blew her mind. :)
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/'95%20Blue%20Meanie.MOV (65 megs)
That's one of the best EV related movies I've ever seen. Thanks for
uploading that one.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
double range at speed, WOW!
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG%20Main.html They were doing
what Jerry recommends and more in the 80's. Getting close to 500 mpg. or
about 5 times the gas mileage possible then. Wonder how that will compare
for us. Also. We don't need as much air flow as a gas powered bike. Our
designs can be more air tight. LR........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well over 2000 amps for a few seconds.
Madman
Iron Mountain Films wrote:
> How many amps at 120 volts can a stock adc 8" motor take?
> I know the ratings for 5 minutes, 1hour and constant, but what about 5 or 10
> seconds at a time. Does voltage sag from batteries jack up the amperage that
> a motor sees? I currently have a 96v civic 16) x 6v It has a curtis 1231c
> 7701 that has overheated (heat sink fan failed) and it popped its endcap. It
> still works fairly well but I seem to lose power after it heats up. I am
> trying to choose a new controller and am leaning toward a 1K zilla LV. Is
> this controller overkill? I am looking for range and decent performance less
> than or equal to stock gas civic.
>
> On my next battery purchase I want to go to 136 volts 17) x 8v. and I am
> wondering where I would set the amps limit. I read about racers dumping large
> amounts of amps into these motors, but I am assuming they are modified.
> Currently I have trouble just getting to freeway speeds I pull 300 350
> battery amps sometimes less trying to accelerate. Will a Zilla change that
> or are the batteries the limiting factor?
> Thanks
> -Mike 92 honda Civic
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
how is it, exactly, that the capacitors intercept/contain/filter
out the ripple current?
A capacitor smooths out the voltage spikes that would have resulted from
a pulsating current flow. Like an accumulator, it doesn't create or
destroy charge; it merely absorbs it during the peaks, and releases it
during the valleys.
Does that help?
well, the analogies are all fine and good, and they provide a
generalized overview of the FUNCTION the components are providing, but I
guess the problem for me is that they don't seem explicit enough about
the actual electron movements to have "locked it in" for me, so to
speak, etc...
I guess, in practical terms, there really doesn't need to be anything
more than the idea of what the FUNCTION is and then the formulas to work
of the component vales, etc, for proper circuit design... I mean, is it
REALLY just a simple matter of there being a certain amount of internal
"pressure" inside the cap, and that the electrons will preferentially go
and store themselves inside the cap when the "pressure" in the rest of
the cicruit becomes greater than the "pressure" in the cap? ...and then
the electrons migrate back out of the cap when the "pressure" in the
rest of the circuit becomes lower than the "pressure" in the cap
again?... are the caps in series or in parallel to the rest of the circuit?
thnx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/1981%20Fuel%20Economy.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Otmar and all
At 10:37 AM 12/07/05 -0700, Otmar wrote:
I was taught by the engineers at ADC to drill a half inch deep hole in the
positive brush and put the thermocouple in there.
Any ideas as to why the positive brush?
Is it just an ADC in-house convention, or is there a technical reason for it?
I can theorise no reason for the positive brush to get hotter than the
negative, unless the electron flow into the brush heats it more than the
electron flow out of the negative one.
Any theories?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel, I have a manual for your charger. Also K&W folks are very very cool
and helpful. You can call them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Silverman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:22 AM
To: EV List
Subject: Newbie - Need Charging Help
Excuse the basic questions but I could use some help
in figuring out the charging on my Volts Rabbit. It
has a 96V (6Vx16) US 125 Battery pack and a K&W 20
charger. The car has an analog SOC gauge and that is
it. Since this is a "dumb" charger, I really need
help in determining how to best charge my pack.
What steps should I take to make sure I am getting the
most from my batteries.
1)How do I determine how much was pulled from the pack
after driving (check the voltage)??
2) What are the steps in charging? I know of bulk and
finish but not sure what it all means.
3) How do I figure out how to set up the charger. I
see there is a Current setting and a Voltage setting.
How do they relate to each other?
I have a timer set up at home to turn the charger off.
I sure could use some help. I know that these are the
most basic of EV questions but I really want to
understand the process involved in properly charging
flooded batteries.
Thanks,
Joel
__________________________________________________
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Nick Viera writes:
>
> > Affordable is entirely subjective, but I don't know of a slicker way
> > than this (it is what I am using on my ADC 8"):
> > <http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=444&product_id=1
> > 568>
>
> You're right I should have defined "affordable." I agree that that
> magnet collar looks like a good easy solution, I guess I just can't
> believe that this has to be a $35+ solution.
Nick,
How much is your time worth? Will it take you more than an hour to design
and build a suitable alternative?
Ralph
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I am 'building' a 2F1R hybrid in my imagination.
Batteries up front. 75/25 ratio.
A front end from a Triumph or an MG donor. Make/years/sources?
A swing axle from a motorcycle rear. No rear mechanical brake. Regen
braking. How to fit wheel and pulleys? Suggestions for a donor rear?
A 10Kw to 15KW engine with variable pulleys to one side of the rear wheel.
A 10KW motor with variable pulleys to the other side of the rear wheel.
Source of pulleys?
Weight of engine/motor beyond rear for traction and for exhaust.
A roll cage frame. Tear drop aero. Light weight covering using flat panels
like a stealth bomber. Suggestions as to design and tubing dimensions.
Suggestions of how to enter/exit.
DC motor driven A/C.
Anyone else interested in this project? I sure would enjoy some company.
Car to be built in Fort Pierce, FL.
BTW Buckmister Fuller's Dymaxion (2F1R) weighed 1,000 pounds and it carried
10 passengers. Built in 1933!
"For those that haven't heard of it, the Dymaxion Car was a teardrop-shaped
(least air resistance), 3-wheeled, rear-wheel (single) steering, 20 foot
long, Aluminum bodied auto, designed by Buckminster Fuller in 1933 to
achieve maximum output and service with minimum material input. It was
about 6 feet tall (kinda like a big van), seated the driver and 10
passengers, weighed less than 1000 lbs., went 120 miles/hr on a 90
horsepower engine, and got between 30-50 miles to the gallon of gas. Fuller
referred to it as the "Dymaxion Car", "Dymaxion Vehicle", and "Omni-Medium
Transport" since it was ultimately intended to go by land, water, or sky.
Only three were ever built."
Can we do better today?
BoyntonStu
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Hi Jeff and All,
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks to all, this is starting to take shape
> First of all it looked like Garret Maki's 84 Yamaha
> FJ1100 "piggy" It
> sounds like the ADC 6.7 volt is a good fit or the
> pair of eteks.
> I am not light, so undersizing the motors would be
> an error.
> Jerry said fairing double range at speed, WOW!
That depends!!! ;-))
Mostly on just how it's done and used and can very
a lot. Most of the saving is for at speed. Rolling
resistance/aero on an unfaired MC crosses over at
about 30mph or less vs a reg car at about 40-45mph.
So under 30 mph the fairing will do little good.
But over 45mph al the difference in the world as air
drag goes up the cube of speed!!
YMMV
But as Lawrence's posts show on Vetter's aero bike
work, things can be quite good eff, thus range, speed
wise.
>
> I do like the idea of series/parallel, do 2 eteks in
> series (electrical)
> have more torque than a 6.7?
NO!!!!!! Nor will the handle long term loads as
well compared to 1- 6.7. Also the 6.7 can go to
5500rpm easily all day long vs 4000 for the Etek so
you can use better gearing for even more torque in the
series motors. Other PM's can go higher rpm but the E
tek doesn't
>
> The batteries in the saddle bags is an awsome idea,
> it looks right and
> gives me 2 more batteries.
Can work but when done right and some metal work,
enough batts can be put where the ICE motor, gas tank
was.
>
> Thanks Jerry, I wasn't thinking about the different
> windings for the
> 6.7, good point.
I'm still deciding just what rpm, winding set up I
want on the 2 motor Freedom EV set up to get the best
combo of top speed, low end torque and eff.
I'm tending towards slower motor rpm with more
torque/amp so the final drive can be cheaper, less
unsprung weight and lower amps eff range.
I'd like to avoid a jack shaft if possible. This
can be done by making the fields stronger.
>
> It seeems like getting enough batteries on board for
> decent range is the
> real challenge.
Much easier, cheaper, lighter is lowering drag as
in most any EV.
>
> Hey rich, do you have BLDC motors and controllers
> that would do nicely
> on a MC?
I'd love a good, cost effective, regen, eff BLDC
motor/controller for the Freedom EV!!! It would
increase my range by 10-25% depending on use,
terrain!!
This is the best thing going for the E teks too
but they are just not big enough even with 2 of them.
And they cost the same OEM as the 6.7's do.
>
> I will have to do some calculations on just how much
> torque I need.
>
There are many calulators out there but I just
take the motor's torque from their curves x the drive
ratio x the radius of the wheel in ft and compare to
know vehicles.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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Hi Philippe and All,
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:33 PM
> Subject: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle
> for electric
>
>
> > > fun commuter
> > > etek
> > > 72V450A Alltrax
> > > 72V 40Ah kokam
> >
> > You really need 2 Etek's if you want to do any
> > kind of power or speed over 50mph or good hill
> > climbing ability. Series/parallel them and you
> need
> > 1/2 less controller for the same power. And you
> could
> > add a bypass contactor for better top end power.
> > Also while we would love Kokam's, this size
> pack
> > would be $8-10K?
>
> $3200 :^)
That's $1100kwhr!!
No thanks as my whole EV Mc would cost under
$1k!!!
Good lead costs under $100kwhr. Even new Ni-cads
cost under $550kwhr and surplus under 100$kwhr when
you can find them.
Much better is to get spee,range thru drag
reduction and use cheaper batts.
>
> note i don't choose etek for lots of power but to
> have more range >>>fun
> (light and 72V) COMMUTER
It would have to be under 600lbs toatl with
driver, ect and under 50 mph on flat terrain to use
just 1 e-tek reliably. Any kind of hills, higher speed
you would need 2.
Donald, stop spamming me with spamarrest spam. If
you don't want my posts, fine, but stop the auto
return posts which are just another form of spam.. I
don't click on anything like that as you never know
where it's from. If these don't stop we should ban you
from the list.
Jerry Dycus
>
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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On the new Beetle, I use a Siemens system at 312V with a 5133WS18 motor and
Simovert controller - max torque of 175Nm/129ft-lbs
I modified SIADIS so that it can take up to 250amps current. I use to have
it limited to 100amps.
I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice when I
stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but gently
tapers up the acceleration. Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the acceleration is
quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.
I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80 amps, then
as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum current of 250
amps.
Is this slow launch a factor of the control software? Maybe it is the
maximum torque of the motor? Is the launch a factor of torque or power?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
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The teardrop shape is not necessarily the best aerodynamic shape for an
automobile. You must take into consideration ground effects. You may want
to pick up a couple of newer books on vehicle aerodynamics if you really
want to make it aerodynamic.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stu or Jan
Sent: July 14, 2005 6:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Dymaxion, etc.
I am 'building' a 2F1R hybrid in my imagination.
Batteries up front. 75/25 ratio.
A front end from a Triumph or an MG donor. Make/years/sources?
A swing axle from a motorcycle rear. No rear mechanical brake. Regen
braking. How to fit wheel and pulleys? Suggestions for a donor rear?
A 10Kw to 15KW engine with variable pulleys to one side of the rear wheel.
A 10KW motor with variable pulleys to the other side of the rear wheel.
Source of pulleys?
Weight of engine/motor beyond rear for traction and for exhaust.
A roll cage frame. Tear drop aero. Light weight covering using flat panels
like a stealth bomber. Suggestions as to design and tubing dimensions.
Suggestions of how to enter/exit.
DC motor driven A/C.
Anyone else interested in this project? I sure would enjoy some company.
Car to be built in Fort Pierce, FL.
BTW Buckmister Fuller's Dymaxion (2F1R) weighed 1,000 pounds and it carried
10 passengers. Built in 1933!
"For those that haven't heard of it, the Dymaxion Car was a teardrop-shaped
(least air resistance), 3-wheeled, rear-wheel (single) steering, 20 foot
long, Aluminum bodied auto, designed by Buckminster Fuller in 1933 to
achieve maximum output and service with minimum material input. It was
about 6 feet tall (kinda like a big van), seated the driver and 10
passengers, weighed less than 1000 lbs., went 120 miles/hr on a 90
horsepower engine, and got between 30-50 miles to the gallon of gas. Fuller
referred to it as the "Dymaxion Car", "Dymaxion Vehicle", and "Omni-Medium
Transport" since it was ultimately intended to go by land, water, or sky.
Only three were ever built."
Can we do better today?
BoyntonStu
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Might be life with vector control AC motors. I noticed that the Prizm
tends to be a bit slow up to 10mph; it's certainly not pulling it's max
of 50kw ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Once you get beyond that though it accelerates
quickly and keeps on rocking up to about 100mph.
This is a single speed car that weighs a bit more than your car. That
said, is your motor and controller rated to 50+kw? (250amps at what
voltage?)
Chris
Don Cameron wrote:
I start off in second gear (an overall ratio of about 8:1) and notice when I
stomp on the throttle, the car does not have a quick launch but gently
tapers up the acceleration. Once it reaches 2500 RPM, the acceleration is
quick, but off the line it is unexpectedly slow.
I notice on the ammeter that at launch it is only taking in 50-80 amps, then
as the RPMS rise to 2500 rpm, the amps rise to the maximum current of 250
amps.
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75lbs (22 cells) in the box, and it feels much better than when I had the
Saft modules on. I can't even really tell these are back there. Plus it
makes a nice back rest for a passenger. I have had more weight back there
while experimenting with different battery arraingements, and it gets to the
point where the bike develops a strange feeling wobble. I've also had the
batteries between my knees protrude out of the frame more and didn't like
it. Of course I'm not racing around corners with my knee dragging, but for
the kind of riding I do it feels great.
As far as look and feel of the bike I am really happy with this current
arraingement. A few years ago when I started this project I was hoping to
have something I could ride to work. I knew back then that it was a long
shot, and I still haven't met that goal (I did do it once with the saft
modules, but it was more of an adventure than I am willing to persue every
day.) My problem is that work is 26 miles one way, mostly freeway, with
some monster hills.
I still have a chance. With some good aero work I may be able to make it,
or I may be able to find some business or individual at the halfway point
that could host a battery swap station for me. With a few minor
adjustments, my current battery arraingement could be less than a 5 minute
swap.
Any Portlander's know anyone around the St John's bridge area that might be
interested in helping me out?
damon
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New EM pictures
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:19:24 -0700 (PDT)
How much weight do you have in that black box?
How did that change the handling compared to
the arraingement you had before?
Rod
P.S. Cool looking bike! My BB600's are still in the
boxes in my garage, all 248 of them (I did a
commishioning charge on 2 of them, 56 Ahr for each).
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's
> mounted and added them to
> my webpage.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>
> I am much happier with the way it looks with these
> batteries. The only
> downside is that people rarely notice that it is
> electric now :-(
>
> damon
>
>
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