EV Digest 4506
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Slow Launch
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Conversion Van
by "Randy Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Air conditioning from the past. TONS OF a/c EXPLAINED.
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Air conditioner etc
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Conversion Van
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Conversion Van
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Singer project car. Looks very light.
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) BB600's , FF and New EM pictures and a newbee question.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Singer project car. Looks very light.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Dymaxion movie of it turning on a dime!
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New EM pictures
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Singer project car. Looks very light.
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Air conditioning from the past. TONS OF a/c EXPLAINED.
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Air conditioning from the past.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough. Will this help with SCR controller
efficiency?
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Motor cycle for electric
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Air conditioner etc
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Plasma Boy Racing website up and running
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Fundamentals of electricity (Re: ICCU Ultracap Breakthrough...)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
by BR Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A bit late, but but some comments are inserted
Roger Stockton wrote:
I think there are 3 possibilities:
- the controller is in current limit (i.e. the *motor* current is at its
maximum, but RPM is low, so motor voltage and therefore power is low).
Can you monitor the motor current with SIADIS, or just the battery
current? If the battery current is less than your battery current limit
and the accelerator is floored, that is usually a sign that the
controller is in output current limit.
Yes, this is exactly what happen.
- the controller has some lame acelerator/throttle ramp programmed that
causes it to respond slowly to sudden/large throttle commands. If there
is a throttle ramp or delay parameter, you can probably configure it
with SIADIS.
There is programmable ramp, but it is set to milliseconds.
Don's launch lasts seconds. I'm not even sure if one can
set this ramp time for so long.
- the motor simply doesn't produce that much torque at extremely low
RPM, even with max motor current supplied. Have to check the torque
curve/map for this.
The torque is identical and linear up to some high RPM.
On the low side, the RPM can be as low as negative number,
(rolling backwards) still the same forward torque.
If I'm on too steep hill and floor it, the car slows down,
and then start rolling backwards down hill (negative RPM)
but the motor still makes the same torque trying to move
it forward. The field rotation just leads the rotor bu fixed
slip and slip is watched for by a sensor, whatever actual
RPM is. If you mechanically force the motor to run backwards,
the field also start rotate backwards, still maintaining
forward slip, that's all.
DC motors if stalled, will damage commutator in the
instant, so don't try it with DC. For AC, 0RPM is no
magic number, it is the same as any other RPM number.
When I say the torque is linear, say, from 0 to 6000 RPM,
the real correct statement is - it is linear from
-6000 to +6000 RPM all the way through, tapering on
both ends, (mirror around 0RPM Y axis).
If its any consolation, Al Godfrey also found that his AC Porsche 928
does not have the neck-snapping off-the-line performance as his DC 914
had, even though it does accelerate smartly once rolling.
If you're at the motor current limit, the only way to snap
the neck (if that's the goal) is to use lower gear at launch.
I don't believe though that snapping the neck was Al's goal
when he purchased this setup, there are plenty of cheaper
ways to do it :-)
With more and more torque (much more than original ICE's) you
likely brake either gear teeth, or CV joint, or your neck,
or slip the clutch, or loose traction - whatever weakest
link is. I know, it is favorite activity of many listers,
but Al for sure isn't one of them...
Cheers,
Roger.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:35 PM +0000 on 7/14/05, Alex Smith wrote:
As I'm new at this, is $10 per 1.2v 34a/h cell a good price?
Hey, Alex, fancy seeing you here! Heh. Yeah, 10 bucks a cell is quite
a good price. These are the kind of batteries that can outlast not
just the vehicle they were originally mounted in, but 3 or 4 more
after that. Very robust and reliable. I wish I could afford about
four hundred for my car conversion.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about using a PFC20 as a 300 volt motor controller?
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But wouldn't it be easier to get a 1-1/2 to 2hp treadmill motor from Burden
or
AmSci&Surplus? These are usually spec'd for 100-120vdc, so you could run it
directly from the pack, connect it to all 3 units (power steering and
brakes,
A/C), and forgo complicated controls except an off circuit to cut power when
none of the 3 are in use. Don't know the mechanical setup, but maybe a
serpentine belt or even a chain and gears?
Ok, I'm on board with not using an alternator and I have a nice new treadmill
motor sitting in my
basement. Now how do I control the motor? I will have a high voltage traction
pack, over 300
volts. And I'd like to be able to vary the speed of the motor, slower on the
highway, faster at
slow speeds for the power steering.
Dave Cover
300V might would create too high of rpms directly, so a motor controller is best
for your application anyway. You'd probably only need 10A of current, but where
are you going to find a HV/LC controller?! I've seen a Solectria controller
like that on eBay (not now) and I'm sure if you have the money you can find
one, but maybe one of the EVDL gurus can make one? I see these 24V/10A
controller kits on the web, but I doubt you can easily upgrade the voltage just
by swapping out a few parts!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
Randy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BoyntonStu wrote:
>If you froze 38/8.3 = 4.57 gallons of water during the night and put it in
>your car with a fan over it, you would be carrying a 5,500 BTU A/C unit.
I want to be sure I understand your numbers. Are you sayig that a small
room A/C is rated at 5,500 BTUs per hour (i.e., about 1/2 ton)? If so, then
what you'd be carrying with 4.57 gallons of frozen water is not a 5,500 BTU
A/C unit, but rather one hour's worth of a 5,500 BTU A/C unit--is that
correct or have I misunderstood?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> How about using a PFC20 as a 300 volt motor controller?
>
> Chris
>
Wow, that's a cool idea! You'd have to make some remote adjustment circuits to
control output from the driver's seat, and wire up a 300VDC AC wall plug...but
just plug into the pack when you unplug from the mains! You'd also have to
idiot-proof the voltage adjustment setting so "driving" outputs are
differentiated from "charging" outputs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy Bush wrote:
> Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
I've never seen one converted. Though it would make for an easy
conversion since there is plenty of space for the batteries. Not to
mention, a real frame to work with vs's unibody construction...
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ford.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< Has anyone converted a Ford E150 van?
Randy >>>
Someone was talking about a classic van conversion on the list a few months ago,
but no updates since then. Is yours a new van or a really old one (i.e. - a
"classic")? One thing about the old ones is the much lower empty weight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Lawrence
But with a name like Singer, you would run the risk of
having people insulting your car by saying it sounds
like a sewing machine...
http://www.singerco.com/products/
that used to be the ultimate putdown for motor bikes
around here!
1st,2nd,3rd
zzzzzzzt,...zzzzzzzt,...zzzzzzt
Tom
------snip------
Subject: Singer project car. Looks very light.
This car would make a great EV. LR.........In Oakland
CA
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4561012932&category=6314&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Christopher, Alex and All,
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Compared to their original price, yes. However, you
> will likely be able to
> find them for much less.
At $400 a cell to the gov, yes, they were pricy!!
>
> I, for example, have a dozen unopened cases of them
> (38 cells per case)
> that I'll be selling one way or another, at a couple
> bucks each to recover
> my original costs (which included a substantial
> freight charge). I've
> verified they're very good cells and they work well,
> but don't give quite
> enough current for my purposes.
These would be good units for Alex's FF bike. 2
strings of 48vdc or one of 72-96 would be good for him
giving both good range and power.
Alex, these ni-cads give more than rated power +
a stiffer voltage and can be discharged lower and left
without charging without harming them. Add to that a
20+ yr life and they are a bargain at these low
surplus prices.
>
> I've talked to Noel at SG Photo (linked below) and
> most of the cells she
> sells are Marathons, which are reported to deliver
> much higher currents
> than what I've been able to get out of the Safts.
> If you want/need much
> more than 1000A, they may be worth the money. I'm
> considering that avenue,
> but at the moment I think I'll go back to planning
> on Orbitals.
You must need a lot of amps!!! Too go for so much
less useable cap, more weight, cost of the Orbitals.
But many have planned on using 2-300 of these
cells and that's just to big a pain to water so I
expect a bunch of these will be back on the market.
Which is great as I'd really like some too for my
smaller EV bikes/trikes. 34+ amphrs at 24-48vdc is
just right for them.
I'm putting together an EV go cart this month and
they would be perfect for it amoung the others.
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> >>
> >> >From: "Alex Smith"
>> >Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee
> question.
> >> >Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
> >> >
> >> >Hi Guys.
> >> >Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am
> in the process of
> >>building
> >> >(well, gathereing the components and doing the
> design work) an electric
> >> >motorcycle.
> >> >It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung,
> semi-enclosed machine. While I
> >>am
> >> >currently designing the machine to accomodate 5
> 12volt flooded
> >> batteries,
> >> >the design would be much nicer with smaller
> batteries.
> >> >I've done a good bit of surfing but have been
> unable to find the
> >> BB600's
> >> >you have mentioned. Any leads?
> >> >Alex Smith
> >> >3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
Alex is being modest here as he has probably the
best Vortex 3wh sportscar ever built. And they are not
easy to do well. I like it because much of the
chassis/body is made of plywood/epoxy covered in
foam/fiberglass.
He also owns the Vortex3wheeler@ yahoogroups list
which is a great place for any 3 wheel vehicles,
designers, builders including EV versions and most are
built from scratch.
He has run the EVProduction list for me and been
a great help in the effort getting EV's into
production. Hopefully I rekindled an EV grin in him.
I think he'll make a great aero FF EV MC with
his talent and ability to keep on a project until
completion that will be a credit to EV's.
> >> >Glider Pilot.
> >> >Sail boat enthusiast.
> >> >EV's fit right in there, don't they?
All nice, quite and eff!! You'll find many
sailors on this list.
Glad you joined the best EV list Alex,
Jerry Dycus
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IMHO, still better than facionable roaring of
modified mufflers which rather sound like farting
heard from far away...
Tom Watson wrote:
Dear Lawrence
But with a name like Singer, you would run the risk of
having people insulting your car by saying it sounds
like a sewing machine...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/qt/cop.qt
BTW I just found out some other information.
The skin was aircraft fabric. If we made a strong roll cage, why not?
The weight was incorrectly reported by most sources a 1,100 pounds.
More likely, that was the rear wheel weight.
Os 3,300 pounds or more is more likely.
120 mph and 35 mpg is still very good with a driver and carrying 10
passengers with a Model T engine.
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The performance and range are better than the Lectra that had more weight in
batteries. Good job. LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: New EM pictures
Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: New EM pictures
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
the chain figured out too. LR........
I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added them
to my webpage.
http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I still have about 200 or so of them. I need a controller more than these
batteries. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
This list is as good a place as I know of to find them. They are usually
obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
surplus auction.
Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting
to use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application
we were hoping to use them for. Mine are working out great for me, but I
suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
the future.
Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
sizes of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build
in a space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical.
We can certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension
you really need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4
inches, but they do require occasional watering so you will need easy
access to the tops of them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used
in a vertical position.
These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
last checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
damon
From: "Alex Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
Hi Guys.
Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
building (well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an
electric motorcycle.
It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I am
currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded batteries,
the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
you have mentioned. Any leads?
Alex Smith
3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
Glider Pilot.
Sail boat enthusiast.
EV's fit right in there, don't they?
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New EM pictures
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: New EM pictures
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
the chain figured out too. LR........
I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
them to my webpage.
http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The only
downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends. They were 400 dollars new to the govt. I guess you could say
getting them for 10 each is your tax dollars at work. I still have 1800
dollars of them in my garage. I need a controller more than a set of
batteries. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
As I'm new at this, is $10 per 1.2v 34a/h cell a good price?
Alex
From: Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
Just emailed them a week ago they have a couple hundred left.
damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:This list is as good a place as
I know of to find them. They are usually
obtained as military surplus, and thanks to the efforts of one of our list
members earlier this year some of us got in on a buy stemming from a
surplus
auction.
Unfortunately for you all of us who got in on this buy are just starting
to
use our batteries and decididng whether they really fit the application we
were hoping to use them for. Mine are working out great for me, but I
suspect others will find that they don't, and be offering them for sale in
the future.
Since you are still in the design stage I would suggest looking at the
sizes
of some of the more commonly used batteries and make sure you build in a
space that will accomodate as many of these choices as is practical. We
can
certainly get you dimensions. With the BB600 the only dimension you really
need to worry about is the height which is approx. 9 1/4 inches, but they
do
require occasional watering so you will need easy access to the tops of
them. Also they are flooded so they need to be used in a vertical
position.
These people used to sell them, but it's been well over a year since I
last
checked with them. Still you can see a photo and the dimensions.
http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm
damon
>From: "Alex Smith"
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: New EM pictures and a newbee question.
>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:33:21 +0000
>
>Hi Guys.
>Just joined at the advice of Jerry Dycus as I am in the process of
building
>(well, gathereing the components and doing the design work) an electric
>motorcycle.
>It is to be a 'feet forward', low slung, semi-enclosed machine. While I
am
>currently designing the machine to accomodate 5 12volt flooded
>batteries,
>the design would be much nicer with smaller batteries.
>I've done a good bit of surfing but have been unable to find the BB600's
>you have mentioned. Any leads?
>Alex Smith
>3 wheeled vehicle enthusiast.
>Glider Pilot.
>Sail boat enthusiast.
>EV's fit right in there, don't they?
>
>
>
>
>>From: "damon henry"
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: [email protected]
>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:22:09 +0000
>>
>>Actually 44 cells and 150lbs.
>>
>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
>>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>>To:
>>>Subject: Re: New EM pictures
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:59:04 -0700
>>>
>>>So 60 batteries about 200 pounds? 17 miles. Great. If you can do any
>>>Freeway that is great. The bike is so much cleaner now. Seems you have
>>>the chain figured out too. LR........
>>>
>>>
>>>>I snapped a few shots of my bike with the BB600's mounted and added
them
>>>>to my webpage.
>>>>
>>>>http://home.comcast.net/~damonhenry/ebike.htm
>>>>
>>>>I am much happier with the way it looks with these batteries. The
>>>>only
>>>>downside is that people rarely notice that it is electric now :-(
>>>>
>>>>damon
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Future 72 Super Beetle conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov said:
> IMHO, still better than facionable roaring of
> modified mufflers which rather sound like farting
> heard from far away...
What's odd is that while volunteering at the Dell-Winston Solar Car
Challenge a week ago, I noticed a couple cars using large hub motors --
the cogging on these motors was so bad that when running they sounded very
much like flatulent sport mufflers. And they were LOUD. I've heard
tricked out Hondas that were quieter than those motors.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Air conditioning from the past. TONS OF a/c EXPLAINED.
BoyntonStu wrote:
>If you froze 38/8.3 = 4.57 gallons of water during the night and put it in
>your car with a fan over it, you would be carrying a 5,500 BTU A/C unit.
I want to be sure I understand your numbers. Are you sayig that a small
room A/C is rated at 5,500 BTUs per hour (i.e., about 1/2 ton)? If so, then
what you'd be carrying with 4.57 gallons of frozen water is not a 5,500 BTU
A/C unit, but rather one hour's worth of a 5,500 BTU A/C unit--is that
correct or have I misunderstood?
You are correct.
A 5,500 BTU/hr air conditioner can in a single hour cool 5,500 BTU.
The next hour, it will cool another 5,500 BTU's.
4.57 gallons of ice can only melt once and cool 5,500 BTU's.
The next hour zero.
I hope that I have made it clear.
BoyntonStu
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just some info on ice storage systems
a BTU is the energy to raise 1 lb of water 1 degree farenheight so a
tank of water at 90 degrees takes 58 BTUs per lb to bring to freezing
and another 144 BTUs /lb to convert it to ICE.
If we consider 1 ton = 12,000 btu's /hr(smallest auto AC) ( ironically
based on the amount of heat needed to melt 1 ton of ice in 24 hours)
and we want 1 hr of 72 degree max air
72-32 = 40BTU's/lb + 144 = 184 btu's/lb so 12,000/184 = 65 Lbs of ICE.
Since the air outlet is a lot colder initially and most EV's are under 1
hour of range, perhaps less would do.
One system uses air accross little spheres full of water avoiding coils
and exchange fluid..
As I discussed how we might make these ourselfs, the 16.9 oz diet coke
plastic bottle in my hand gave us the idea of useing them.
How about this idea
An icebox with a blower, mounted in the car. the almost full coke
bottles in the freezer in the garage, just load them up before you
unplug and drive away.
the 16.9 oz ones weight about a lb, so an ice chest that can hold 25-30
of them would be large enough.
These are real rough calculations, anyone have some better data?
The problem I see is I need the AC on the way home from work, not to work.
Most R134 systems cannot use an acumulator like the old r12 systems
could of because the expansion valve is gone, they use O-tubes. So the
saturation of the vapor is influenced by the overall charge, It is why
you need a scale to get them charged just right, they call them "
critically charged" otherwise, regenerative AC would work well in this
town.(fresno Ca)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is that helpful? If not, just get any textbook on the subject, and you
can learn all you want on capacitors.
I guess what I'm digging for is a deeper understanding of electricity
itself... I mean, I keep thinking I've got a solid workable mechanical
model for stuff, and then there always seems to be some kind of
curveball (field effects, etc), that knock the simple mechanical
"electron as a discrete thingy" model off whack...
also, I can see this is not a particularly appropriate thread for the
list, so I'll stop now... but thnx!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
toltec wrote:
well, the analogies are all fine and good, and they provide a
generalized overview of the FUNCTION the components are providing, but I
guess the problem for me is that they don't seem explicit enough about
the actual electron movements to have "locked it in" for me, so to
speak, etc...
It's all about what Lee talked about regarding the ESR [equivalent
series resistance]
A battery may have an ESR of .03 ohms. If you draw square-wave pulses of
100 amps of current [say the battery is 12v with no load] then the
battery will actually have 12-IR volts across it when the 100 amp
current is running through it, 12-100*.03 = 9 volts. If you have a
capacitor with an ESR of .001 ohms in parallel with that battery, the
resulting ESR would be 0.00075 ohms and the voltage during a current
draw of 100 amps would be much closer to 12 volts. This isn't a hard and
fast rule though, it only works for short pulses of current unless your
capacitor is utterly gigantic.
The energy stored in a capacitor is 1/2*C*V^2 [joules] so if you have a
capacitor of 1000uF charged to 120v it would have 7.2J of energy. Not
much at all. The capacitor can dispense that energy quite fast though,
much faster than a battery.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/
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--- Begin Message ---
toltec wrote:
>
I guess what I'm digging for is a deeper understanding of electricity
itself... I mean, I keep thinking I've got a solid workable mechanical
model for stuff, and then there always seems to be some kind of
curveball (field effects, etc), that knock the simple mechanical
"electron as a discrete thingy" model off whack...
also, I can see this is not a particularly appropriate thread for the
list, so I'll stop now... but thnx!
Fun links:
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/index.htm
http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/
I think what you may be more interested in is physics. Electronics
generally stops at the electron level IMHO.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't get them - but then again, I have McAfee and Postini services.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest
> Hi,
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
> > Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account from
> > "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
> > Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also
abuse of
> > my private email address.
>
> I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
> receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
> are irritating for sure...
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All
I think I have gotten all of the rotten "SPAM Arrestor" off my system.
Again, I apologize for all inconvenience and problems.
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest
I don't get them - but then again, I have McAfee and Postini services.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: Dave and Donald - SpamArrest
Hi,
Don Cameron wrote:
> Everytime I post to the EV Mailing list I get a email to my account
> from
> "Dave" and or "Donald" about registering for their spam arrest.
> Please turn this off - it is just another form of spam - it is also
abuse of
> my private email address.
I got some of those as well, though I wasn't sure if anyone else was
receiving them or not as they appear to be going around off list? They
are irritating for sure...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
I have to agree with Chris. Try to pick a donor that fits with the goal
of your EM. If you're looking for a utilitarian EM, go with a standard
or touring bike donor. If you're looking for a performer, go with a
sportbike donor. If you want trendy or futuristic, go with a scooter
donor. If you want cool, use a cruiser donor and chrome your motor and
controller. :-)
On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:42 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 13, 2005 1:36:29 PM PDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Motor cycle for electric
Hi Damon,
I have never built an EM and you have, so I give you a lot of
credit for
experience. But I don't think you have experience with the EM I'm
thinking
of. I'm not saying you need to have killer performance to be
legitimate,
but I think it's reasonable to expect good performance if you're
starting
with a performance bike. What I've described would be a 600 lb.
bike with
well over 100 horsepower. Not a record-setter, but certainly
respectable.
I don't know why you think it will have poor range. In a car, 50%
of your
weight in lead gets you around a 100 mile range. Obviously the
weight of
the rider is a much greater proportion of a motorcycle's weight, and
aerodynamics really stink at highway speed. But still, it should
have at
least your 15-20 mile range, maybe double that. Unfortunately we
don't have
a lot of data on EMs so that's a guess.
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--- Begin Message ---
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
another way of looking at how much the Air Conditioning uses , is how many
MPH slower you need to drive to use the same amps ,. I found that in the
Mazda 1 driving 2 or 3 miles slower (at 50 /48 ) would make up for the extra
amps used .
)
steve clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
A GOOD POINT!
2-3 MPH loss out of 50 is 4% to 6%.
BoyntonStu
Going up to Ft. Pierce today.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 9:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
another way of looking at how much the Air Conditioning uses , is how many
MPH slower you need to drive to use the same amps ,. I found that in the
Mazda 1 driving 2 or 3 miles slower (at 50 /48 ) would make up for the extra
amps used .
>)
>
steve clunn
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
OK...saw the little item you added to the page...good humor. Two
things....could you
correct the spelling from 'beem' to 'been' and, make a link where others can
upload
pictures for us to sort through?
See Ya....John
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--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
300V might would create too high of rpms directly, so a motor controller is best
for your application anyway. You'd probably only need 10A of current, but where
are you going to find a HV/LC controller?! I've seen a Solectria controller
like that on eBay (not now) and I'm sure if you have the money you can find
one, but maybe one of the EVDL gurus can make one? I see these 24V/10A
controller kits on the web, but I doubt you can easily upgrade the voltage just
by swapping out a few parts!
Open-loop bottom-side control would be quite easy. A 500v MOSFET and an
MCU or a quad opamp + shunt for overcurrent control and you could
probably make it work. You'd need an inductor on that PM motor because
it inherently has a small inductance which would mean quite large
current spikes.
It can be done but I wouldn't want someone to try it without some
previous experience in electronics.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/
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--- Begin Message ---
This is reasonable for practical electronics approach -
assume that electrons are actually infinitely small
particles carrying electrical charge that are plentiful
in metals, absent in good insulators (thus they are insulators!)
and there are some in semiconductors which makes their
conductivity somewhere in between (thus the name) but also
very unstable in terms of being far more sensitive to dopings
of different kinds and temperature.
"Voltage" and "current" are easily measurable "after effects"
of electric an magnetic at work, they are always there accompanying
fields and they are proportional to the fields strength so can be
(and are) used as their equivalents in calculations and practical
measurements. A voltage or current (as primary matter, not derivatives)
does not exist in nature, only electric and magnetic fields. Fields
just cause effects we can explain by voltage and current concepts.
A fair analogy can be measuring a water flow ("field") by measuring
an RPM of a propeller placed in a flow (current"). A flow will
always create proportional RPM output so you create a gadget
to measure RPM (ammeter) and claim that you measure the flow
itself (field). But "RPM" does not exist in nature, it's
a man made gadget's property reflecting secondary effect of the
flow, thus conveniently used, but not really a *flow* measurement.
It is RPM measurement. Same with current and voltage.
Really there is no need to dig deep to make practical use
of voltage and current as equivalents of electric and
magnetic fields, the this science is very well developed
for few hundreds of years by now. Seeing electrons as little
"balls" has obvious limitations as they *have* to move at lower
than light speed and have finite mass. Yet all last century's
attempts to detect the weight difference between charged chunk
of material (with presumably many electrons crammed in it) and
discharged one failed, precisely for this reason (wrong
assumption). Electrons are half particles, half waves, depending
on what their effect you're trying to explain. And a wave weigh
nothing, but penetrate the material. Anyway, this is all
fascinating but really getting OT.
Back to Earth, a water in a pipe analogy will work for 99% of
your needs as far as wiring or constructing low freq circuits.
Some knowledge about semiconductors (on a diode/transistor level)
is enough for most practical tasks. If you design high speed
electronics, you'd need more, but there are different lists and
sources for that.
Victor
Martin K wrote:
toltec wrote:
>
I guess what I'm digging for is a deeper understanding of electricity
itself... I mean, I keep thinking I've got a solid workable mechanical
model for stuff, and then there always seems to be some kind of
curveball (field effects, etc), that knock the simple mechanical
"electron as a discrete thingy" model off whack...
also, I can see this is not a particularly appropriate thread for the
list, so I'll stop now... but thnx!
Fun links:
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/index.htm
http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/
I think what you may be more interested in is physics. Electronics
generally stops at the electron level IMHO.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Don - thanks for the reply. I found out my error. With a 12:72 teeth ratio,
I can get a peak speed of about 42 mph.
I have a spreadsheet into which I plug in my desired top speed, acceleration
and payload (and after making some assumptions about the number and types of
driving cycles), it calculates the apprx current, charge required, power and
torque based on a given voltage.
Currently here are my assumptions:
Top speed - 68 kph
Payload (including rider) - 130 kg
Acceleration - 0 to top speed in 20 sec
System voltage - 36V
Transmission ratio - 6 (12:72)
Based on these my spreadsheet is showing that my peak torque required is
about 21 Nm (Etek can produce 20 Nm at 4000 rpm) for uphill travel
Max current draw is 54 A (Curtis 1201 handles upto 100A?)
Power is about 6 kW (peak etek is 11kW)
Does this seem reasonable?
I dont have batteries yet. It looks like for the type of drive cycles I have
assumed, I would need a 20Ah setup. Any recommendations?
Thanks.
___________________________
> From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:02:17 -0700
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Message-Id: <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> For an outside diameter wheel of 24" to get a top speed of 28mph at
> 3600rpm, you will need an overall ratio of 9:1
>
> A 12:1 will get you approx 22mph at 3600rpm.
>
> There are a number of gear speed calculators on the net. One is
> http://www.kabamus.com/garage/gears.html I suggest you make absolutely
> sure
> of your speed and torque needs before purchasing your gears.
>
>
> Also, will the ETek, controller and battery combination have enough power
> to
> accelerate you and your bike to the speed desired? How about up a hill?
>
>
>
> Please post your reply messages to the list so others can learn from your
> experiences.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/ <http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of BR Deshpande
> Sent: July 11, 2005 9:39 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Please Help Newbie - ev bike transmission
>
> Hi All,
>
> I posted this query sometime back but dont know if i got any responses.
> Hence the repost.
>
> I have some questions about the choice of rear sprocket for my dirt bike
> project. The sprocket will be chain driven by a 36 V etek motor.
>
> Doing some quick and dirty calculations, i came to the conclusion that at
> the top rpm of the motor 3600, if i want reasonable top wheel speeds of
> say
> 25-30 mph i need to use a teeth ratio of 1:12.
>
> I have been unsuccesful in finding sprockets. The highest i have found so
> far is 12:72 (front:rear). I have 18" wheels (24" outer dia of the tires).
>
> The other issue is regarding freewheeling. I am not sure if my Curtis
> 1201 supports this. It looks like I may have to do it mechanically.
> Are there freewheeling sprockets available for a this kind of bike?
>
> I would like some ideas about how to achieve a top speed of 30mph (a
> jackshaft for an intermediate step down?) using my current setup and
> secondly on what would be a good way to do the freewheeling. Thanks in
> advance
>
> Regards,
> B.R. Deshpande.
>
>
> --
"The resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance."
-Bertrand Russell.
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