EV Digest 4519
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) series hybrid, why not?
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Zilla price, was 1965 Datsun truck
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Max Motor RPM
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Regen with charged batteries
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: series hybrid, why not?
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: series hybrid, why not?
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 9Electric Degreasing Advice Sought
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) A 'REVERSE' A/C clutch?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 9Electric Degreasing Advice Sought
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Of Peukert and Desulfators
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A 'REVERSE' A/C clutch?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summary
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Desulfators (desulphators?)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Dodge Neon conversion.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summary
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if anybody could offer an opinion about
why we don't see more "series"? hybrids?
The most practical car for me would be one that
had a modest battery pack, perhaps 40 miles range,
and an on-board generator. Pure EV most of the time.
Run the generator on longer trips. I would think that
15-20KW would give indefinate range on a small car.
I would even accept limited range. Perhaps a
5-10KW generator that I could leave running
while I parked at my destination.
However, I understand that most buyers would not
accept this.
I'd like a basic city car, with just enough batteries
to do what I usually do with my car.
I'm actually not very concerned with energy efficiency
when I use the generator, since I'd expect generator
use to be very rare. (ICE generated electricity
is surely a lot more expensive than off the grid)
Is this just too radical a change for people to accept?
Is my idea of a small on-board generator going to
weigh too much, or take up too much space?
I was thinking that the smaller battery pack might
make up for the space and weight of a generator.
I'd be happy with a generator trailer, but I can
see where that would be hard to market.
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to the EVDL Dennis! I think. You are new here, right?
Anyway, in case I'm right, let me say to those that don't know, dennis has been
a long time Elec-trakker and a regular
contibutor to the elec-trak list, so while he may be a newbie, he's not that
new.
Sounds like a great project!!
Others will put in there 2kwh's I'm sure, but I'm thinking a 9", a Z2K, and 30
Orbitals. Or even a Siemans AC drive.
Roughly ballparking -- 1 mile per battery in a truck, but outstanding
performance.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
> <<ATT1983995.txt>>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: 'EV Discussion Group'
> Sent: 7/22/2005 8:11 AM
> Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
>
>
> After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the
> truck I
> would like to convert.
> 1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
> Really solid and rust free.
>
> Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
>
> I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
> range.
> My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get
> young
> people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these
> vehicles
> can really do.
> Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
>
> My biggest decision is batteries.
> There seems to be so many choices.
>
> This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000#
> so
> I have a lot of options.
> I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can
> get
> the performance I would like
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
>
>
>
> <<ATT1983995.txt>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Comments below:
The next thing I would recommend is a Curtis 120 to 144 volt 500-amp
controller for around $1,000. Or you could spend $3,000 and have enough
more permance, regenerative braking, recharging with Otmar's rechargers. I
think they are called Zilla (or something like that). You're looking at a
lot of work (between 200 and 300 h ours), but you would have wonderful
knowledge and beat the high price of gasoline. Good
Luck.................Bill
Maybe there is an inflated view of what you can get a Zilla for. You
can still get a Zilla 156V 1000 amp controller for under $2000...and
it's worth every penny!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How could one determine the maximum RPM's of a large motor if that bit if
information is unknown? What happens when maximum rpm is reached? Do the
brushes arc, motor vibrate, fan blades fly off? I have ran the motor for 48
hours at 14 volts and no load and it stays right on 2400 rpm. The brushes are
about seated and comm color is good. My direct drive adapator to my Powerglide
is about finished and I need to know where to manual shift the Powerglide at an
RPM safe (but maxed) to the motor. Once the brushes are completely seated I
intend to slowy take the motor to 5000 rpm at no load. See any harm in this?
Thanks, Jack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis Pestka wrote:
> My biggest decision is batteries.
> There seems to be so many choices.
>
> This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
> I have a lot of options.
> I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
> the performance I would like
Hi Dennis,
You need to define your idea of "performance". Golf cart batteries are by
far the most economical and abuse-tolerant choice. But a golf cart battery
has a maximum power output in the neighborhood of 3 kW. By the time that
reaches the ground you have a bit over 2 kW. Let's round that off to 3 hp.
Since this battery weighs around 60 lb., your weight/power ratio is around
20. That's just for the battery, not including any chassis, body or
drivetrain. Assuming you can get a 50% battery/vehicle ratio (a challenge,
but doable), your overall weight/power ratio is 40. That's like having a
3000 lb. car with a total of only 75 hp. It would make a perfectly suitable
commuter car, but it's not my idea of performance.
If you use fewer golf cart batteries to lower total weight, your overall
weight/power ratio gets worse. Many people recommend a minimum of 30%
battery/vehicle weight. That gives you a weight/power ratio of around 67.
Ouch. That's like having a 3000 lb. car with only 45 hp.
For any generally-accepted definition of "performance", AGMs are the most
common solution. They are *much* more expensive. They require more
sophistication in charging control if you want them to last, which adds even
more cost. Life also seems to be more dependent on average DOD, so you
really don't want to discharge them below 50% very often. That may mean you
need more of them.
But if you use AGMs, you can have a genuine "performance" truck.
As with any kind of vehicle, speed costs money. How fast do you want to
spend?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your goal is not hard. It just costs money. With 767 pounds of batteries
you should be able to create your car. Find the voltage(156), pack
weight(767 pounds/13 large Optimas) & components(Zilla K1 156v unit)you can
afford. If this list is too expensive you can pair down. Here is how I
would do it:
Zilla k1 156v unit 1800 dollars
13 Large Optimas ?
9" or larger motor up to 1500 if new. Used could save you some.
DC/DC 200 to 400 dollars
Charger: Russco or Rudman depending again on budget.
Interconnects: Make them yourself from welding cable to save money.
I think this truck came with disc brakes. If not they should be easily
adapted. You won't need vacuum assist. All the batteries will go under the
bed if needed. If you are frugal you might be able to do it for 5 to 6k not
including the referb of the truck. It should be faster than stock. If you
want more performance use more smaller batteries(240v) and a 2500 dollar
Zilla. It'll cost another grand. Good luck. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'EV Discussion Group'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:11 AM
Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
would like to convert.
1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
Really solid and rust free.
Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
range.
My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these
vehicles
can really do.
Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
My biggest decision is batteries.
There seems to be so many choices.
This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
I have a lot of options.
I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
the performance I would like
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks;
Dennis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, this is how the diesel-electric trains work coming down Pike's Peak,
called dynamic braking. They have big toaster coils on the roof glowing red
(if at night).
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:20 PM
Subject: Regen with charged batteries
>
> I want to use regen as a "power brake" on cars without power brakes. But
> what if you start out at the top of a hill with fully charged batteries?
> As you go down with your foot on the brake, the battery voltage rises,
> the controller kicks out your power brake effect, and you suddenly feel
> you "loose your brakes".
>
> Can I just kick in a huge power resistor across the pack with a
> contactor when the pack voltage goes up too much? Anyone done this?
>
> John Foster
> VEVA Tresurer,
> Dynasty Electric Car Co Engineer/Assembler
> 1980 Dodge Omni 128V
> "Cars are for Women with Children, real men ride Bromptons"
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That 8" will work but with a truck and a zilla bigger is better. Try to get
a 9 inch or larger(ADC or Kostov). Should be able to get a used one close
to the 8: price. If performance is your game bigger is better. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Hoopes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 5:55 AM
Subject: RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
http://home.netcom.com/~slh4/conversionhints.html
Hi Dennis:
I just sold a Nissan Longbed 1982 pickup truck to a friend of mine in
Texas. He's having a ball with it. It's all electric. That truck was
originally converted as a fleet of trucks and cars in Vegas back in the
70's. I just happened to have the right sized motor ( used) if you decide
to convert that truck. It's an 8 inch, advanced DC motor, self-cooling
for
$900. One of your most expensive items.
The motor that's on the other truck is an old motor, and it has to have a
smaller motor with a fan on it to keep it cool. After you find the plate
for that standard transmission (because you'll be driving in second gear
most of the time), the motor fits on the plate, the plate fits on the
transmission. They make plates for all standard transmissions. Forget
automatics. They don't work. You install roughly 8 six-volt Trojan
batteries in the front and 12 or more batteries under the bed in the back.
that means you have to make battery boxes. I kind of cut to the chase
when
I said Trojan 6 volt batters. We tried 12 volt batteries, which makes the
vehicle lighter, but they only last half as long and go only half as far.
The batteries I recommend should give you a 60 mile range.
The next thing I would recommend is a Curtis 120 to 144 volt 500-amp
controller for around $1,000. Or you could spend $3,000 and have enough
more permance, regenerative braking, recharging with Otmar's rechargers.
I
think they are called Zilla (or something like that). You're looking at a
lot of work (between 200 and 300 h ours), but you would have wonderful
knowledge and beat the high price of gasoline. Good
Luck.................Bill
Bill & Sharon Hoopes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Original Message]
From: Pestka, Dennis J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV Discussion Group <[email protected]>
Date: 7/22/2005 5:13:25 AM
Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
would like to convert.
1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
Really solid and rust free.
Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
range.
My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these
vehicles
can really do.
Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
My biggest decision is batteries.
There seems to be so many choices.
This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
I have a lot of options.
I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
the performance I would like
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks;
Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me, whether this would work or not depends on what "longer
trips" means. If you kick on the ICE before the batteries are empty, you
might be able to get by with a generator that barely sustains going 60mph on
the flat with the battery reserves plus regen helping for acceleration and
short hill climbs. You could size the generator up a bit so that it can
sustain the 60mph on the flat and produce a bit of charge to the batteries
at the same time; then you would have a little extra power from the
batteries for the acceleration and hill climbing. But, if that becomes your
goal, wouldn't it be simpler and more effective just to buy an existing
hybrid and convert it to run on battery only?
As for having an ICE running in a parking lot - personally I don't like it -
there's enough noise and exhaust on the roads and at least (currently) the
street parking, driveways, and parking lots are relatively exhaust free.
Maybe if you super muffled it and put the exhaust up high...
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron NMLUG-EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 22 July, 2005 06:35
Subject: series hybrid, why not?
I wonder if anybody could offer an opinion about
why we don't see more "series"? hybrids?
The most practical car for me would be one that
had a modest battery pack, perhaps 40 miles range,
and an on-board generator. Pure EV most of the time.
Run the generator on longer trips. I would think that
15-20KW would give indefinate range on a small car.
I would even accept limited range. Perhaps a
5-10KW generator that I could leave running
while I parked at my destination.
However, I understand that most buyers would not
accept this.
I'd like a basic city car, with just enough batteries
to do what I usually do with my car.
I'm actually not very concerned with energy efficiency
when I use the generator, since I'd expect generator
use to be very rare. (ICE generated electricity
is surely a lot more expensive than off the grid)
Is this just too radical a change for people to accept?
Is my idea of a small on-board generator going to
weigh too much, or take up too much space?
I was thinking that the smaller battery pack might
make up for the space and weight of a generator.
I'd be happy with a generator trailer, but I can
see where that would be hard to market.
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Hello Dennis (again), it's good to see you posting to the EVDL. Dennis and I
have emailed each other over the past year, so I am familiar with his truck.
"Pestka, Dennis J" wrote:
> After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
> would like to convert.
> 1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
> Really solid and rust free.
Dennis needs to know just how rare a find he stumbled into! He sent me hi rez
photos of his Datsun minitruck a while back ...wow!!! This truck looks as if
one went back in time and found a new machine right off the showroom
floor...well, it's almost that perfect! Datsoholics would kill to get this
truck. It would be astounding to find even a '72 Datsun minitruck in this
shape, a vehicle sold in large numbers but driven hard and put away wet by most
all owners who loved their little Datsun workhorses, but finding a limited
production '65 N320 model in mint shape??? Nearly impossible. I almost fell out
of my chair when Dennis sent me his photos, then drooled a lot, then hated him
for a while because he had this cool truck and I did not :-) Anyway, I wanted
to let other EVDL members know just how near perfect and clean of a find Dennis
has, and yes, it's an ideal platform for an EV. A classic old Datsun minitruck
may not get others as excited as it does me, but trust me on this, if Dennis
were to show up at a Datsun club show and shine EVent, like the one we have
here in Oregon every early June that attracts 300+ cared for, hopped -up, and
restored classic Datsun 510s, 1200s, Z Cars, and minitrucks, with his mint
condition '65....he'd get mobbed.
OK, I'm done salivating....
> Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
> I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
> range. My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
> people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these vehicles
> can really do. Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts. My
> biggest decision is batteries.
> There seems to be so many choices.
Here's the problem, if you're on a budget and accordingly, choose lead acid
type batteries over, say a lithium type pack, you can have one or the other,
that is good range but so-so performance or good performance but so-so range,
but it's hard to end up with both. It's easy to get stunning performance from
that tough little pickup...simply drop in a set of 20 either Exide Orbitals,
Optimas, or Hawkers (choosing batteries that weigh between 40 - 45 lbs. each),
and you've got a 240V pack that weighs 800-900 lbs. and batteries that love
dishing out high currents over and over. This pack teamed up with a Zilla Z1K
controller and a nine inch DC motor would flatten you back into the seat and
smoke the rear tires at will, and absolutely blow away that stereo type of your
EV being 'a glorified golf cart'. The problem, is that even though this pack
would definitely get you 30 miles, maybe even 40 mile down the road, such a
trip is an 80-90% discharge. Deep discharges like this daily will cycle the
pack to death in a year or so. If you drove it 15 -20 miles regularly, with
occasional longer trips, then you'd have many years of good service. On the
other hand, a 1250-1300 lb. pack of 6 volt golf car batteries would give your
truck sedate performance but a range of up to 75 miles in warmer weather.
Driven easily, as in keeping max battery amps to the 250-400 amp side of
things, this pack might last you 5-7 years. The Zilla controller will allow you
to dial up 1000 amps of current into the motor, while you can still limit the
battery pack's current to 400 - 500 amps. This setup works well to wring out
the most performance from a heavy, low voltage (120V) wet cell pack, in that it
will make the 0-30 mph performance as strong as it can be...after that, the
current limit imposed on the pack will come and bite you with 30-60 mph coming
in at a slower rate of acceleration.
You can have a shorter range but very high performing EV with a high voltage
light weight pack of 12V AGMs, or you can have a longer range but lower
performing EV with the standard fare of a lower voltage heavier pack of 6V wet
cells. Each version will give you years of trouble free driving, as long as you
stay within the restrictions of both designs. The high voltage light weight AGM
pack will allow you to blatantly have acceleration fun as long as you don't try
to get longer range while doing so, and the lower voltage heavier wet cell pack
will allow you to drive longer distances as long as you don't try to pull BIG
amps and accelerate well while doing so.
Downsides for the AGM pack are much higher initial cost, the absolute need for
a smart charger and BMS, and shorter range mostly due to the lower pack volume
and weight when compared to the wet cell pack. Positives are super clean,
corrosion free, and maintenance free batteries, the ability to place them
anywhere and even sideways or upside down, and damage free high amperage power
delivery that with 1000 amps @ 240V for high hp figures, will continually give
you that BIG EV grin.
Downsides for the wet cell pack are gassing and venting that cause corrosion
and require watering and cleaning maintenance, the requirement of having to
place them in locations where they are accessible, the heavy weight that a 120V
pack brings, the absolute need to keep their amp draws to 500 amps and lower,
and the lower hp figures that come with 500 @ only 120V. Positives are much
lower initial cost, the ability to use an inexpensive charger and no need for a
BMS, very good range per charge that comes with a 1250-1300 pack, and long
cycle life if the pack is set up to restrict current draws. This setup can also
return a BIG EV grin in terms of flying by gas stations and having enough range
to satisfy most of your driving needs.
Hope this helps a little.
See Ya....John Wayland
PS: Thanks Dennis, for that awesome 4/0 orange power cable!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is what I have done with my '94 Skoda pickup. It has a 14kW generator
using a Honda GX670 V-twin engine and eCycle MG3-38 BLDC motor/generator and
3-phase bridge for about 14KW output, under the back of this unit-body
mini-pickup. This generator is used on occasion to for long trips only as
the the 300 A-Hr 26 cell lithium ion pack (with 7 12V 33 A-Hr DCS-33
batteries for extra current for peaks - a hybrid battery pack as well as
hybrid energy sources) is plenty for all usual driving. I didn't have time
to finish a proper liquid cooling system yet, so this morning I am strapping
on some pieces of aluminum (0.5 X 3 X 0.125" channel) for temporary cooling
and driving about 120 KM up to the family's cottage for the 3 days left of
my vacation.
Note: a plug-in Prius would be a lot nicer to drive and about an ideal
vehicle and a lot less work to make. Our standard Prius would also be
efficient for this trip (just back from an excellent1800 km vacation trip to
Solarfest in Vermont and eCycle near Reading PA), but my wife is using it
now that we are back home from the family vacation (it is not plug-in
converted yet).
To do over, I would instead put "not that much more money considering the
expected lifetime" in a new Prius and a conversion of it to plug-in. I am
"putting my (borrowed) money where my mouth is", as I have ordered a second
Prius for my wife and sold the Subaru Legacy she was driving. (Once she
tried the Prius, she didn't want to drive anything else, and wants to get
100% use of one so much she will be paying for the equivalent of 1 Prius.)
I will be able to get back the "old" one (2005 model) for my use and
eventual conversion to plug-in when the 2006 arrives in October . So I got
to try things both ways since I started in EVs before the 2004+ Prius
existed. I believe the heavy investment of time and money will be proven
worthwhile as the world heads into "energy descent" in the next few years.
Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron NMLUG-EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: series hybrid, why not?
I wonder if anybody could offer an opinion about
why we don't see more "series"? hybrids?
The most practical car for me would be one that
had a modest battery pack, perhaps 40 miles range,
and an on-board generator. Pure EV most of the time.
Run the generator on longer trips. I would think that
15-20KW would give indefinate range on a small car.
snip
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> Is there a miracle degreaser out there?
Try this stuff:
http://www.driveupusa.com/
It smells like a strong detergent, but it really does work. At least
on the driveway..
Could also rent a power washer and blast it. Or see if there is some
place that has a steam cleaner.
Or try this stuff:
http://www.simplegreen.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If we could have a clutch that was engaged until power was applied, we could
disengage our regen motor for coasting.
Press the button, coast. Release, and power as before.
Has anyone knowledge of such a beast?
stU
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But alas, there is another barrier. That transmission is just too
ugly to bolt that beautiful electric motor to it!
Scrub and power wash the tranny to remove any loose rust and all of the
grease. Castrol Engine Degreaser (comes in a purple 1 gallon bottle,
available at most Auto parts places) works well here. Don't get any on
your skin, it burns.
Once the tranny is clean enough, do what the hotrod crowd does... paint
it. Mask off the shaft openings and set the tranny standing up on the
bell housing. On the MR2 we used a three coat color changing metallic
paint but nearly anything spray paint will work. The high temp paints
made for engines are best but not really required. Once painted and dry
wrap in plastic and foam to protect the paint job during installation.
For best results you are supposed to use a aluminum compatible primer.
We found acetone based "etching" automotive primer worked pretty well
too. Use in a _very_ well ventilated area.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Sharon Hoopes wrote:
> I just happened to have the right sized motor ( used) if you decide
> to convert that truck. It's an 8 inch, advanced DC motor, self-cooling for
> $900. One of your most expensive items.
Yes, the 8 inch ADC motor would work well in Dennis' truck.
> I kind of cut to the chase when
> I said Trojan 6 volt batters. We tried 12 volt batteries, which makes the
> vehicle lighter, but they only last half as long and go only half as far.
If Sharon is talking about 12V wet cell type batteries, then I agree
with her take on this. Yes, if the 12V pack was lighter than the 6
volt one she replaced it with, of course there's more range per charge
from a heavier pack. Two same weight packs though, one with 12V wet
cells and the other with 6V wet cells will give you the same range,
but the 6V batteries will give better cycle life than the 12V models.
Not true, though, if talking about 12V AGM batteries like Optimas,
Hawkers, or Orbitals. The same weight pack of these types of powerful
and reliable 12V batteries will give only slightly less range per
charge at lower average currents, but, will actually give more range
per charge at higher average currents.
> The next thing I would recommend is a Curtis 120 to 144 volt 500-amp
> controller for around $1,000.
Argghhh!! The last controller on earth I'd recommend, is a low performing
Curtis that absolutely ruins the EV experience with that awful squeal
it makes through the drive motor! A new Curtis 1231C is a bit more
than $1400, not $1000. With a Zilla Z1K LV model available at about
$500 more than a new Curtis, there is absolutely no reason to put up
with half the power, a fraction of the reliability, and a controller
that makes your EV squeal and annoy everyone. By today's EV standards,
500 amps is nowhere high enough to give even average gas car
performance if teamed up with a lower voltage 120-144V pack. Curtis
makes a lot of fine controllers and they're in use in everything from
forklifts to pallet jacks, to on road EVs, and most all deliver silent
reliable operation. The Curtis model 1221C and 1231C controllers don't
come close to matching other more advanced controllers.
> Or you could spend $3,000 and have enough
> more permance, regenerative braking, recharging with Otmar's rechargers. I
> think they are called Zilla (or something like that).
Correction...Otmar's Zilla Z1K LV with the Hairball interface, the
model one should compare to the Curtis 1231C, is just under $2000, not $3000.
None of the Zilla line of controllers offer regen.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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--- Begin Message ---
1. Peukert:
The equation is C=i^n x t where C and n are constants that characterize
a battery and t and I are time and current respectively.
To determine this equation for a specific battery, you need to run
discharges at two different rates, plug the currents and times
(t1,t2,i1,i2) into this equation and mathematically solve for C and n.
Again, the C here is not the capacity but a constant for the particular
battery. You need to know some math to figure this out since it involves
log functions to solve the equations.
Years ago, I wrote a simple program in basic language to calculate these
values for any battery, based on the discharge data. Once the constants
are determined, you can calculate the estimated capacity at other rates
of discharge using the equation thus generated.
The capacity declines with increasing average current draw, and this
equation gives a good estimate of how a battery will perform at a
certain current within reasonable limits, i.e. if you calculate the
capacity for 1000 hours, it will be wrong as for it will be for 2 seconds.
The values for US2200 are: C= 398.4953 and i=1.236161
The capacity is lower at higher current draws because of the acid ions'
diffusion rate limitations into the plate pores and water exit from the
same.
FWIW, this equation is useful in estimating the capacity of a battery at
a given current draw, or at a given time to discharge. At its best, it
has at least a 5% margin of error. I am not clear on how this equation
can or is used for recharge. I get calls on "what is the Peukert number
or Peukert exponent for such a such battery so that I can set my
charger". I am happy to provide this number, but am blank on how this
is related to recharge.
A true determination of discharge is by measuring the Ampere Hours with
Ah meter. It integrates the current with time. Then by difference, you
can calculate the state of charge.
2. Desulfators: It distresses me to hear this whole concept. The so
called sulfation is not a problem in normal properly used and charged
batteries. If you did not form lead sulfate during discharge, you will
not have battery.
So what problem are you solving with desulfators?
Sulfation is a pathological condition that occurs with long shelf stand,
or operating batteries in undercharged condition. Under these
conditions, large lead sulfate crystals are formed, creating
electronically isolated areas, and since lead sulfate is an electronic
insulator, the current does not go through to carry out the charge
electrochemical reaction. If the crystals are not extremely large, then
the battery can be healed by pulse charging or trickle charging. Other
than that, the so called desulfators are a scam.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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--- Begin Message ---
When My EV the 1977 El Camino Electro was a series hybred using a V-6 engine
driving thru the EV motor. It had a standard clutch that couple a shaft to the
EV motor.
There was another clutch behind the motor to a transmission. A double clutch
car.
While the unit was off and engine is off, a electric activator, like a
hydraulic cylinder, would release the engine clutch. The accelerator pedal
only operate the pot box for the motor controller would start up the main motor
and starts up the engine.
When the engine vacuum got above 15 in.hg. the electric activator would
operated the clutch like a in and out clutch system. The motor would then
remain at idle and the EV motor would run the car.
Anytime the ampere of the motor would go above 100 amps, and the vacuum of the
engine is at or above 15 in.hg. then a current relay would activated a 12 volt
circuit that also went through normally close contacts on a adjustable
industrial vacuum switch which would than operated the clutch electrical
activator.
Any time the the engine was engaged to the motor and the ampere was over 100
amps, the engine would stay engage even if the vacuum drop below 15 in.hg. The
control of the engine speed was done by a accelerator rod that would electrical
lock into the position it was in driving the accelerator EV pot.
When this unit would coast down hill, than the load was less, by either the
engine above 15 in.hg. and the motor at 0 amps, than the engine would
disconnected from the motor if I have it in automatic mode. If the hill is wet
and icy, than I would keep the engine connected to provide some compression
braking.
These electric activators are built by DODGE or BROWNING power drive systems.
They are normally available at a place that sells bearings, coupling, bushings,
v-drives, sprockets and etc.
This system work great if you was going over 30 mph and more than 50 miles
drive distance. For city driving, under 30 mph, the cost per mile was more
when gas was 75 cents a gallon.
I even ran this engine on hydrogen and oxygen, so I would not have to have GAS
in a EV!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Stu or Jan<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 9:12 AM
Subject: A 'REVERSE' A/C clutch?
If we could have a clutch that was engaged until power was applied, we could
disengage our regen motor for coasting.
Press the button, coast. Release, and power as before.
Has anyone knowledge of such a beast?
stU
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:02:04 -0700 (PDT), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Felix and All,
> Thanks for this interesting report.
> One wonders though if Toyota would cut it's
>4cyl engine down to 1 cyl and use that weight, cost
>savings to double the E motor power and the battery
>pack size to 40 mile range, just how much more the gas
>mileage on the fewer times gas was actually needed,
>would be?
At least a couple of reasons right off the top of my head. One would
be NVH (noise, vibration and harshness.) Very difficult to impossible
to balance a single cylinder engine on all axes, even with a balance
shaft.
Another would be emissions. It's much more difficult to make a sub 4
cylinder engine emission compliant. The reason is that below 4
cylinders, the exhaust flow is in discrete pulses. Neither catalysts
nor sensors work well with impulse flow. This is the main reason you
don't see sub-4 cylinder engines in the US very much. I know an
engineer that worked on the Geo Metro engine. They had a b*tch of a
time with emissions even though the engine is tiny.
Yet another reason is customer acceptance. Very few people will
accept the typically rather sluggish performance of an EV. People
want performance AND economy. The parallel hybrid provides just that.
Yet another reason is that Toyota, responding to their customer base
that they probably understand better than any car company, doesn't
want to sell an EV. A PEV is perceived by most non-zealots as a
complicated hassle. Extension cords, limited range and so on. Again,
as above, people want economy in a familiar environment. Sticking a
gas nozzle in a tank opening is familiar. Arranging to plug in isn't.
My opinion is that this hybrid thing is going to be a flash in the pan
until and unless some revolutionary energy storage technology appears.
People will acclimate to the current gas prices just like they did in
the 70s. Mfrs can't continue to subsidize the cost of batteries and
when customers suddenly have to fork out kilobucks after not so many
miles, the "economy" of a hybrid will quickly vaporize.
It's ALL about customer perception. I have a friend who headed up the
engineering team back in the mid 90s at Ford to develop a CVT. That
they did. He said that they had it ready for production but it was
nixed because customers did not like the constant engine RPM sound and
feel. They modified the control algorithm to vary the engine speed at
some expense to efficiency but that still wasn't enough. Focus groups
still didn't like it enough that management would risk the investment
to go to production.
He says that the CVT with an optimal control algorithm would achieve
everything today's hybrids are doing in efficiency, perhaps more. The
fuel economy numbers he's quoted to me certainly make the case.
> You guys keep up the good work holding the
>Auto companies feet to the fire. Few things are better
>for the eviroment, ecomonic and national security than
>what you are doing.
You've got to be kidding. Holding their feet to the fire? All
they're doing is providing some job security for a few publicity
flaks.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you say they didn't work, what kind of experiment did you try? Did
you start with a sulfated battery or one otherwise regarded as having
some sort of damage other than a shorted cell?
I don't usually see the claims for desulfators include being part of a
charge regimen, just as a fix for old/sulfated batteries. I don't know
if they would be able to make batteries in good condition work
"better". So I'd be interested to know what context you tried it in.
I'm certainly willing to accept that they could be snake oil. There are
also a huge amount of other variables- battery type, temp, age, exact
nature of the plate problem, desulfating electronics used, many
variables in the process used- which could give radically different
results. So I'm unsure what they do, what I am sure of is there's a
lack of scientific data and a detailed understanding of the principles
involved.
I've got at least one 17ah SLA general purpose battery that holds only
about 20% of the charge it is supposed to, I've got a quality gel cell
motorcycle starting battery that can still start the engine but has a
low open circuit voltage even after trying to charge it (and it doesn't
accept much charge), a flooded plate lawn tractor starting battery which
has been sitting in the garage for years, and a car starting battery
that has been sitting discharged for years. All seem ripe for
experimentation. They're all pretty abused with verifiable problems so
if it helps the result should be pretty clear.
Danny
Mark Hanson wrote:
Howdy,
When I developed a charger with Trojan for GE-EV (US Patent no. 6,218,812
www.uspto.gov ) and Jim Drizos who was an engineer at Trojan, I was told
that pulsators, desulfators etc. were *junk science* and had no useful
effect on the battery. Experiments I did there didn't show any measurable
useful benefit. Follow the IEI dv/dt=0 standard charge regime and that's
the best life you can get out of your batteries. Just another way to
separate you from your wallet.
have a nice day, Mark
www.solectrol.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
240 and a Z2K
Randy...
Come play with us at Woodburn!!!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "canev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: Dodge Neon conversion.
> We are just starting a 1999 Dodge Neon conversion and wondered if anyone
> else had done one?
> I have a ADC 9" for it so far but have not decided on voltage or
> batteries. Just was curios if anyone had figured out what worked the best.
>
> Thanks
> Randy
>
> --
> Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
> PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
> Errington, British Columbia,
> Canada, V0R 1V0
> Phone: (250) 954-2230
> Fax: (250) 954-2235
> Website: http://www.canev.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
> EV conversion Kits and components
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:02:04 -0700 (PDT), jerry
> dycus
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Felix and All,
> > Thanks for this interesting report.
> > One wonders though if Toyota would cut
> it's
> >4cyl engine down to 1 cyl and use that weight, cost
> >savings to double the E motor power and the battery
> >pack size to 40 mile range, just how much more the
> gas
> >mileage on the fewer times gas was actually needed,
> >would be?
>
> At least a couple of reasons right off the top of my
> head. One would
> be NVH (noise, vibration and harshness.) Very
> difficult to impossible
> to balance a single cylinder engine on all axes,
> even with a balance
> shaft.
I have seen very smooth single cyl motors and use
a 650cc Suzuki MC one right now though others are even
less vibrating, quieter. It's just a matter of
cottectly balancing it even if you need to put in a
counter balance shaft, isolating and muffling.
They can even modulate the E output to cut
vibration if needed as now done some places I've
heard.
Or you could just use a 1/4 size motor with more
cyls if you wish. It just needs to be about 25-30hp is
plenty to tool along at 80mph with the electric 100hp
for peaks those few times a 40 mile range won't do.
>
> Another would be emissions. It's much more
> difficult to make a sub 4
> cylinder engine emission compliant. The reason is
> that below 4
> cylinders, the exhaust flow is in discrete pulses.
> Neither catalysts
> nor sensors work well with impulse flow. This is
> the main reason you
> don't see sub-4 cylinder engines in the US very
> much. I know an
> engineer that worked on the Geo Metro engine. They
> had a b*tch of a
> time with emissions even though the engine is tiny.
You could use a smaller 3-4cyl or even the Metro
motor at 3,000 rpm at 25-30hp to keep friction, part
load eff down by always loading the ICE motor to full
power at the rpm it's made for by recharging the batts
with any power not needed for driving, when batts are
full, run EV until 1/2 empty or so before firing it
back up.
>
> Yet another reason is customer acceptance. Very few
> people will
> accept the typically rather sluggish performance of
> an EV. People
> want performance AND economy. The parallel hybrid
> provides just that.
I expect it to be faster, not slower that a ICE
dominated hybrid.
And I didn't say series now did I? Parallel if you
have the bucks to intergate it is cool.
It's just in my low production, lightweight EV
start up, it's just not worth it with my 100 mile
range on batts.
But for a large car, company, then yes, Parallel is
the way to go.
>
> Yet another reason is that Toyota, responding to
> their customer base
> that they probably understand better than any car
> company, doesn't
> want to sell an EV. A PEV is perceived by most
Here you are just being obstanite, They can't build
enough hybrids or should I say mildbrids as they are
not ture hybrids but ICE's with a EV supercharger. No?
What I'm talking about is no more complicated than
what they already do, just more EV power and less ICE
for much greater eff.
The only real difference is a battery charger and
plug of which would allow travel at $.02/mile on
elecyricity!! Try that with your CVT which would cost
at least $.06/mile for gas!!!
> non-zealots as a
You seem to be the zealot John. You talk but
others do like Calcars and myself.
> complicated hassle. Extension cords, limited range
> and so on. Again,
> as above, people want economy in a familiar
> environment. Sticking a
> gas nozzle in a tank opening is familiar. Arranging
> to plug in isn't.
I have at least 100 serious people begging me to
contact them when my EV is ready and probably 1,000
saying they like it without any adverting.
Probably 100,000 people in Fla use GC and NEV's
for transportation everyday that would love these kind
of EV's, hybrids who have put their money down for
much less performance.
>
> My opinion is that this hybrid thing is going to be
> a flash in the pan
You know what they say about opinions ;-))
> until and unless some revolutionary energy storage
> technology appears.
> People will acclimate to the current gas prices just
> like they did in
> the 70s. Mfrs can't continue to subsidize the cost
> of batteries and
They don't subsidies battery cost. Where do you
get that? The price of the E part of the Pruis is
easily paid for in the premiums paid for them now!
Maybe the first year they might have some but not for
a while now as the price has come down on the batts
and up on the hybrids, No?
> when customers suddenly have to fork out kilobucks
> after not so many
> miles, the "economy" of a hybrid will quickly
> vaporize.
Where is this happening? I've seen no sign of it
in the last 3 yrs at all. Batts are mature now with
the price dropping as we post!! No?
>
> It's ALL about customer perception. I have a friend
> who headed up the
> engineering team back in the mid 90s at Ford to
> develop a CVT. That
> they did. He said that they had it ready for
> production but it was
> nixed because customers did not like the constant
> engine RPM sound and
Yet the Pruis is sold out for many months now.
Why?
And many cars and some SUV's now have CVT's. No?
Do they get as good mileage as hybrids?
> He says that the CVT with an optimal control
> algorithm would achieve
> everything today's hybrids are doing in efficiency,
> perhaps more. The
> fuel economy numbers he's quoted to me certainly
> make the case.
They are on the market now, where is the great
savings?
>
> > You guys keep up the good work holding
> the
> >Auto companies feet to the fire. Few things are
> better
> >for the eviroment, ecomonic and national security
> than
> >what you are doing.
>
> You've got to be kidding. Holding their feet to the
> fire? All
> they're doing is providing some job security for a
> few publicity
> flaks.
No to mention the naysayers John!! ;-))
It will be interesting watching you eat crow when
these type of plug in Hybrids start rolling off the
assembly line in a couple years to customer demand.
Your arguements hold little weight as most have
already been done with much different results than you
speak of here.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> John
>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
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