EV Digest 4525
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Sepex Motor controller
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: UQM Motor for Ford e150
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Intro and questions
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: UQM Motor for Ford e150
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV Vehicle choice, RE: UQM Motor for Ford e150
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor cooling
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor cooling
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor cooling
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Thermocouple position, was: Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) sepex motor controller
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) And you thought diamonds are only a girls best friend
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Thermocouple position, was: Re: 120v 6.7" ADC?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor cooling
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor cooling
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle - 5.5 MPG costwise
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Of Peukert and Desulfators
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle - 5.5 MPG costwise
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) (no subject)
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Ouch! Fuel prices!
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: sepex motor controller
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Ouch! Fuel prices!
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Sepex Motor controller
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: diy outrunner project
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Motor cooling (longish)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
If you want to full featured controller for a sepex and zilla like
performance you may have a hard time. I'm not aware of such a beast.
What I had in mind would not use any extra heavy gauge wire (the
armature will still need heavy wiring but the field will only need
light wiring.) You would need about a 20 amp controller for the field,
set the pot box up so that minimum throttle is maximum controller
output and pressing the throttle reduces the controller output
(reduces field strength.) The armature could easily exceed 1000 amps
if your right foot gets heavy (provided the motor and batteries could
take it.)
This simple system lacks the full feature set and the price tag, but
you will have lots of power and regen. There is an example of this
type of EV drive system in the EV album at
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/091.html> The owner has a page on
the vehicle at
<http://www.mrsharkey.com/rabbit.htm>
Paul "neon" G.
What would the armature current be at full field strength in such a motor?
Do you start off by turning on the field then just dropping in a
contactor for the armature?
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you think the 47 hp "hi tor" motor would be enough for a 89 ford e150
cargo van with a hightop?
Randy Bush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
> Does anyone have any direct experience with UQM motors used for EVs (
> www.uqm.com ) ? I am curious to hear any feedback.
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy, I put this on a new thread as it is not answering my original
question.
As for you E150, you must describe what you mean by "enough"
- how much does you van weigh? with batteries?
- how fast do you want to go?
- what is the frontal area of your van and its' Cd?
- how hilly of terrain?
- what kind of transmission? What are the ratios?
- what range?
Once you have this info, then you can plug it into a product like
CarTest2000 and it will tell you how fast the car will go. You can also
then get an idea for the amount of energy the car uses, and determine the
amount of batteries required to meet that range.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: July 24, 2005 2:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
Do you think the 47 hp "hi tor" motor would be enough for a 89 ford e150
cargo van with a hightop?
Randy Bush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
> Does anyone have any direct experience with UQM motors used for EVs (
> www.uqm.com ) ? I am curious to hear any feedback.
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Victor,
I should get the batteries in two weeks so I'll let you know. You have
a number of quality products.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 4:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Intro and questions
Welcome to the group Noel,
BRUSA NLG5 will handle any profile you like. Info:
http://www.metricmind.com/charger.htm
One downloadable NiMH profile to get you started is on the library page:
http://www.metricmind.com/library.htm
I can get you set up with this if you end up choosing NLG5.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Noel P. Luneau wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to the group and wanted to introduce myself and ask a question
> or two.
>
> I just finished at PowerLight Commercial Solar Systems after a three
> year stint and got very enamored with Solar Power and conservation.
> Just before I left to return to college we put in a 10kW Solar system
> (www.livesolar.net) on our house and bought a Ford Escape Hybrid.
> College is expensive so we sold the Escape but not before I fell in
> love with the 0 to 35 mph silent propulsion. I'm sure I drove my wife
> nuts with "the Engine just shut off" and "Darn, it just came back on."
>
> Anyway, I just picked up some Ovonic 13.2v 85AH NiMH batteries for use
> in a "real" Electric Vehicle project. I also have the capability to
> pick up a used Solectria AC55-A and a Solectria UMOC440TF.
>
> Would any of you suggest what sort of vehicle would make a good glider
> with these components (sorry, open ended question). Is the AC-55 too
> big for a car project (convertible Mustang maybe)? Also what would be
> a good charger and BMS that have a NiMH profile. I understand that
> for California summers it is important to keep the NiMH's cool with a
> good BTMS. Any suggestions there?
>
> Your help is greatly appreciated....
>
> Noel
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and
destroy any copies. Any distribution or use of this information by a
person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be
illegal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Do you think the 47 hp "hi tor" motor would be enough for a 89 ford
e150 cargo van with a hightop?
If you look at the specs, they say that 47 hp (35kW) is the _peak_
rating for this motor, with the continuous rating being 37.5 hp (23.5kW).
So while the continuous power of this UQM motor is similar to that of
the commonly used 9" Advanced DC and WarP motors, the ADC and WarP
motors have a much higher peak rating (100+ hp).
To me it seems that this UQM motor would be quite undersized for a large
and/or heavy EV conversion such as a van.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and All,
First I think we should look at exactly what
his mission is. Then figure out something that can do
it instead of trying to make a pig of a vehicle like
these kind of vans work as an EV.
If his mission is 45 mph and 70 miles or so,
maybe a much better vehicle would be an older long
wheelbase S-10 or other older very light pickup like
some of the early Toyota pickup based motorhome/camper
vehicles.
Basicly just put on a very large or as large
as nessasary shell replacing the bed as snacks are
very light but bulky.
If this shell is done aero, it can even go
much faster with good range with all the batts under
the shell with it tilting for good battery maintance.
This would give him better pick up and
much better mileage on a smaller batt pack, motor,
controller probably 1/2ing his battery, other costs
over time which as a business should be the point. And
give him even more room for cargo.
Another way could be a light EV with a
very light trailer to haul the cargo in. I don't see
why other EV's don't do this. Even my 3.5hp powered
E woody pulls a trailer to go get lumber, other large
items instead of always driving something big for the
few times I might need more space. And my 200lb
trailer only cost $139 new or the $200 one from Harbor
Freight that with an aero shell would easily hold the
400 lbs of snacks? he needs to carry.
And for all of you wanting advice, give as
good detail, mission, wants as you can in the
beginning can save much time, typing, not to mention
save you much money in the short and long term.
Try not to specify the vehicle if possible
as it leads to much higher costs in the EV drive and
poorer performance. Vehicles with good bodies, blown
engines of the correct type needed for a given mission
are a dime a dozen and much easier, less costly to do
than trying to make something into what it shouldn't
be.
In EV's with their lower energy supplies,
they need to be designed to the mission if you want
success. Trying to force a set vehicle like large,
heavy vans if not needed is asking for failure.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Randy, I put this on a new thread as it is not
> answering my original
> question.
>
> As for you E150, you must describe what you mean by
> "enough"
> - how much does you van weigh? with batteries?
> - how fast do you want to go?
> - what is the frontal area of your van and its' Cd?
> - how hilly of terrain?
> - what kind of transmission? What are the ratios?
> - what range?
>
> Once you have this info, then you can plug it into a
> product like
> CarTest2000 and it will tell you how fast the car
> will go. You can also
> then get an idea for the amount of energy the car
> uses, and determine the
> amount of batteries required to meet that range.
>
> Don
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: July 24, 2005 2:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
>
> Do you think the 47 hp "hi tor" motor would be
> enough for a 89 ford e150
> cargo van with a hightop?
> Randy Bush
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 10:42 AM
> Subject: UQM Motors (Unique Mobility)
>
>
> > Does anyone have any direct experience with UQM
> motors used for EVs (
> > www.uqm.com ) ? I am curious to hear any
> feedback.
> >
> > thanks
> > Don
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
Roland Wiench wrote:
Used a Dayton 6 inch 12 VDC @ 4 amp blower fan that is design for
motor cooling. It has a curved outlet that mounts directly to the
brush cover.
This sounds like a good solution, but after searching the Grainger site
for some time I'm not sure I see the product(s) you're talking about?
The closest I could get to what you describe was this fan:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611630889&ccitem=
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Nick,
These are the same type I used to bring outside cool air for the Zilla and PFC
chargers which are in separate enclosures.
The one on the motor has it flange bent down and the outlet curved to fit the
brush cover. This was on the GE motor when I received this EV.
You could make a small adapter plate out of plastic or insulation board up to 1
inch thick which you can get from motor shops. Shape and fasten the adapter to
the brush cover by bolting it thru the bottom side of the brush cover and into
tap holes in the adapter.
Then drill and tap the adapter from the top side for bolting down the fan.
Could used a rubber gasket between the fan and adapter.
This was done this way on the GE motor, which has a heavy solid steel brush
cover.
On my Warp 9 motor, I will used a new fan motor that will only mount to the top
of the curved adapter. It will not be bolted down to the brush cover, because
it a thin aluminum screen. I will fasten the curved adapter to a piece of
curve steel plate that will extend flush to the front of the motor and than
weld on steel tabs that will be position over two bolt holes on the front of
the face of the motor. A rubber gasket will be place between the curved
mounting and brush cover so as to cushion it.
This will be easy to remove, when you do your brush inspection and maintenance.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Viera<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Motor cooling
Hi Roland,
Roland Wiench wrote:
> Used a Dayton 6 inch 12 VDC @ 4 amp blower fan that is design for
> motor cooling. It has a curved outlet that mounts directly to the
> brush cover.
This sounds like a good solution, but after searching the Grainger site
for some time I'm not sure I see the product(s) you're talking about?
The closest I could get to what you describe was this fan:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611630889&ccitem<http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611630889&ccitem>=
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/<http://go.driveev.com/>
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, Dayton Electric makes a number of electrical items for W.W.
Grainger, who sells to businesses at a nominal wholesale level for their own
use or to resell.
W.W. Grainger has other brand names that they offer for sale, such as Teel
for pumps.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: Motor cooling
> Used a Dayton 6 inch 12 VDC @ 4 amp blower fan that is design for motor
cooling. It has a curved outlet that mounts directly to the brush cover.
The inlet has a mount for a standard 6 inch carburetor filter or install a
mounting bar across the inlet for the threaded bolt for the chrome filter
cover. These fans are from Granger which was Dayton at one time.
>
> Used a solid state 12 VDC relay rated at 10 to 25 amps that is fuse with a
Bussman fustron or limitron fuse at 1.25 times the amp rating on the fan
lable. These are design for the interrupting starting of a motor. You can
get these relays from All Electronics or from NTE.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Danny Miller<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 9:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Motor cooling
>
>
> The "electric superchargers" are in fact nothing more than the bilge
> blowers. As in literally, they are usually the ones straight out of
> Academy and sold as a magic bolt-on upgrade. They can't compress more
> than a small fraction of a psi, nor could any small motor like that
> since such compressing takes quite a few hp.
>
> The blowers do develop high speed quite effectively through a very
> useful duct connection and should be able to improve cooling
substantially.
>
> Danny
>
> Landon Bills wrote:
>
> >I do not know how noisy they are but on ebay some people sell those
electric
> >"super chargers" for gas motors. They might be the way to go for
cooling.
> >
> >Landon <--- New to EV's =)
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> >
> >
> >
> >> I'll probably be using bilge blowers (as
> >>other EVDL members recommended) and see how they work.
> >>
> >>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:17 PM +1000 7/14/05, James Massey wrote:
Hi Otmar and all
At 10:37 AM 12/07/05 -0700, Otmar wrote:
I was taught by the engineers at ADC to drill a half inch deep hole
in the positive brush and put the thermocouple in there.
Any ideas as to why the positive brush?
Is it just an ADC in-house convention, or is there a technical reason for it?
I can theorise no reason for the positive brush to get hotter than
the negative, unless the electron flow into the brush heats it more
than the electron flow out of the negative one.
Any theories?
Sorry for the delay, I've been out of town and am just getting to
hundreds of EV list messages.
I was told the positive brush gets hotter. I can only theorize that
it has to do with electron flow.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Getting back to my dilemma; Would it be possible to power the fields
with a constant current of whatever amps and run the armature off of a
controller?
Or would it be better to install a resistor across the fields and run
the motor like a series motor?
Or would it be better to rewire the fields in parallel with the armature
with a current limiting resistor?
Or would it be better to rewire the fields internally inside the motor
in parallel?
I realize the best option might be to use another motor but I do not
have that option right now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Synthetics drive revolution in diamond technology
For centuries diamonds have lured women up the aisle; in future they may
drive them to work as engineers find a use for the precious stones in
electric cars and other applications.
>From ultra-durable drill bits to semiconductors and optical instruments,
industry officials say the uses for diamonds are multiplying and
advances in synthetic production have opened the floodgates to ever more
innovative applications. "Diamond as a material is like what steel was
in the 1850s and what silicone was in the 1980s. There will be lots of
uses for it in the next 50 years but there is not enough of it in the
ground," said Bryant Linares, president and CEO of Massachusetts-based
synthetic producer Apollo Diamond.
"We have the potential to make semiconductors which can be faster, and
better, than any of the existing available semiconductors," said
Linares' father Robert, chairman of the family-controlled business,
speaking in a joint call to Reuters.
The durability of diamonds at high temperatures may revolutionize
high-performance processors and could help make the electric car a
reality for consumers around the world, he said. "A lot of the problem
with electric cars, power grids and even the computers of the future is
dealing with the heat. The use of diamond rather than silicone can
reduce the amount of circuitry by up to 80 percent," he said. One of the
major advances in synthetic diamond technology is chemical vapor
deposition (CVD), which forms diamonds through a chemical reaction
between gases. CVD can be manipulated to make particular shapes of
diamond much more effectively than the older "high pressure, high
temperature" (HPHT) method. reuters
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any
distribution or use of this information by a person other than the intended
recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The positive brush gets MUCH hotter.
As Otmar says, it is because of the electron flow.
The electrons "evaporate" from the negative brush and "condense"
on the positive brush.
If you have ever welded with a DC source, you learn quickly that
whatever is connected to the positive lead gets much hotter than what is
connected to the negative lead. The plasma puts a lot more heat into the
electrode is you connect it to the positive lead.
At 06:54 PM 7/24/2005, you wrote:
At 9:17 PM +1000 7/14/05, James Massey wrote:
Hi Otmar and all
At 10:37 AM 12/07/05 -0700, Otmar wrote:
I was taught by the engineers at ADC to drill a half inch deep hole in
the positive brush and put the thermocouple in there.
Any ideas as to why the positive brush?
Is it just an ADC in-house convention, or is there a technical reason for it?
I can theorise no reason for the positive brush to get hotter than the
negative, unless the electron flow into the brush heats it more than the
electron flow out of the negative one.
Any theories?
Sorry for the delay, I've been out of town and am just getting to hundreds
of EV list messages.
I was told the positive brush gets hotter. I can only theorize that it has
to do with electron flow.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Roland Wiench wrote:
The one on the motor has it flange bent down and the outlet curved
to fit the brush cover. This was on the GE motor when I received
this EV.
How many electric fans were used? If you didn't use 4 fans, did you have
some sort of cover installed around the brush housing such that the air
blown in by the fans is forced to travel through the motor case and out
the front (as it does with the internal mechanical fan)?
Or do your electric fans only blow air in on one end of the brush
housing, across the brushes and commutator, and then out the opposite
end of the brush housing?
Just curious because it seems to me that it'd be best if the fans are
forcing air through the whole motor instead of just through the brush
housing?
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Viera<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Motor cooling
Hi,
Roland Wiench wrote:
> The one on the motor has it flange bent down and the outlet curved
> to fit the brush cover. This was on the GE motor when I received
> this EV.
How many electric fans were used? If you didn't use 4 fans, did you have
some sort of cover installed around the brush housing such that the air
blown in by the fans is forced to travel through the motor case and out
the front (as it does with the internal mechanical fan)?
Or do your electric fans only blow air in on one end of the brush
housing, across the brushes and commutator, and then out the opposite
end of the brush housing?
Just curious because it seems to me that it'd be best if the fans are
forcing air through the whole motor instead of just through the brush
housing?
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/<http://go.driveev.com/>
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
Only one fan is use on the motor. The brush cover is a solid steel cover on
the GE motor with no screens. There is a screen grill at the rear bottom of
the motor. So it blow air across the whole motor.
On my Warp 9 motor which I am still setting up to install, I will test out
the blower fan motor on the existing aluminum brush cover to see how much air
flow goes out the rear screen covers.
Then I will test it out with a solid clear Lexan brush cover with the blower
fan attach to it. The clear Lexan would be used, so the brush and commentator
conditions can be inspected.
Another reason to used a solid brush cover with a filter fan on it, is to
prevent dust and water from getting into it.
I have run my GE motor for 30 years, and its very clean inside. The inside
of the motor has a very smooth enamel surface to it so no brush dust clings to
anything.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis J. Pestka wrote:
>Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
>I would like this thing to have good performance with
>~ 30 mile range. My wife is a school teacher, and I
>feel the best way to get young people interested in
>electric is to give them a taste of what these
>vehicles
>can really do.
-WarP 9'' series DC motor x1 $1,395
-Exide Orbital XCD30 battery x32 $3,136
-Cafe Electric Zilla Controller w/ Hall effect pedal
sensor(72-300V DC, 2,000 amp max) x1 $4,455
-Manzanita Micro PFC 20 Charger w/ buck enhancement x1
$1,800
-Todd DC-DC converter x1 $400
-Steel for battery racks $100
-Battery Cable $100
-EV200AAANA contactors x1 $75
-Feraz Shawmut A50QS600-4 fuse x2 $220
-E-Meter x1 $235
-Solid-State Ceramic Heater Core x1 $75
-Steel Adaptor Plate $50
-Miscallaneous components(Heat shrink tubing, tools, ect.)
$1,000
-Rudman Battery Regulators x16 $704
Basically a $15,000 conversion.
With a battery pack that large in that truck, you'd go about
50 miles per charge to 80% depth of discharge under
relatively normal driving, more if you go easy on the
acceleration.
I missed the "mission" requirements for this vehicle, but I sure hope it
isn't intended to be a daily driver.
I've read that sealed lead acid batteries are good for about 250 cycles to
80% DOD ( Is this about right?).
If so, a set of SLA batteries ( $3136) will take you only 7500 miles ( 50
miles x 250 cycles) and the cost per mile- for batteries alone - would be
about $.42. With gas about $2.30/gal, that's equivalent (cost-wise) to
about 5.5 MPG. And, that doesn't even include the electricity cost.
Now, if this vehicle is intended as a show ( or race car), I guess that
might be OK. But, as a demo vehicle, it wouldn't really ( in my mind) act
as a believable example of the kind of electric vehicle that people would
want to own and drive every day. ( except maybe Jay Leno).
Another way to look at it is that 15k miles/year means about $6K
dollars/year for new batteries alone.
I've always wondered about the high cost/mile with SLAs. The owners of EVs
with these batteries either don't drive them very much or spend an awful lot
of money on batteries.
Phrugal Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:57:03 -0700, Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
> Years ago, I wrote a simple program in basic language to calculate these
> values for any battery, based on the discharge data. Once the constants
> are determined, you can calculate the estimated capacity at other rates
> of discharge using the equation thus generated.
You can find calculators here:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html
http://www.gizmology.net/batteries.htm
Emil
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Philip Marino wrote:
>I missed the "mission" requirements for this vehicle,
>but I sure hope it
>isn't intended to be a daily driver.
>
>I've read that sealed lead acid batteries are good for
>about 250 cycles to 80% DOD ( Is this about right?).
>If so, a set of SLA batteries ( $3136) will take you
>only 7500 miles ( 50
>miles x 250 cycles) and the cost per mile- for
>batteries alone - would be
>about $.42. With gas about $2.30/gal, that's
>equivalent (cost-wise) to
>about 5.5 MPG. And, that doesn't even include the
>electricity cost.
>
>Now, if this vehicle is intended as a show ( or race
>car), I guess that
>might be OK. But, as a demo vehicle, it wouldn't
>really ( in my mind) act
>as a believable example of the kind of electric
>vehicle that people would
>want to own and drive every day. ( except maybe Jay
>Leno).
>
>Another way to look at it is that 15k miles/year means
>about $6K
>dollars/year for new batteries alone.
>
>I've always wondered about the high cost/mile with
>SLAs. The owners of EVs
>with these batteries either don't drive them very much
>or spend an awful lot
>of money on batteries.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did state he only needed 30
miles range. The 50 miles to 80% DoD would be reserved for
showing off or the rare longer trip. 30 miles would only
discharge those batteries to 45-50% DoD or so.
I'm not sure about the Orbitals, but the Optimas at 50% DoD
are quoted by Commuter Cars of having 1,200 cycles. Or a
36,000 mile pack life in the case of this hypothetical truck
assuming shelf life doesn't become the limiting factor.
Further, if there are times he can charge at his
destination(thus cutting his discharge accordingly), he can
get even more cycles. If he also improves his efficiency
with a bellypan, machined brakes, lower friction wheel
bearings, and the rest, he may even extend his max range by
20% cutting discharges even more and getting better cycle
life.
Commuter cars lists the cycles for the Optima as follows:
10% DoD- 4,600 cycles
20%- 4,250
30%- 4,000
40%- 3,400
50%- 2,100
60%- 1,200
70%- 600
80%- 400
90%- 250
100%- 200
I have heard(but not verified) that the Orbitals have better
cycle life. Apparantly, with Optimas, John Wayland and John
Bryan have also had exceptional shelf life with them(7+
years). And even after they only reach 80% of usable rated
capacity through hundreds of discharges, that doesn't mean
the battery isn't still usable, either.
Cut the commute to say 15 miles, by using opportunity
charging at point of destination, and that could potentially
be a 60,000 mile pack life, or 4,000 cycles. That battery
cost you mention gets cut by a factor of 8, at least in
theory.
If I had a pack that large, I'd be more worried about
screwing up the charging and toasting the battery pack. I
hear everybody does this to their first pack, and when I
have my 25 Optima 300V or 28 Orbital 336V pack in my
Triumph, I expect to do the same and have to do a very
costly replacement. But that's all part of learning of EVs.
With proper care, it appears to me that the larger your
pack, the longer it lasts due to shallower discharges for
your normal use. But I could be wrong. There are many who
have not achieved more than 10,000 miles on their pack of
Optimas, but that tends to be in short range cars that see
deep discharges. Perhaps pulling heavy currents for
durations of time in excess of 5 seconds on a regular basis
plays a large role as well.
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--- Begin Message ---
Correction,
Commuter cars lists the cycles for the Optima as follows:
10% DoD- 4,600 cycles
20%- 4,250
30%- 3,400
40%- 2,100
50%- 1,200
60%- 600
70%- 400
80%- 250
100%- 200
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/CPMOptima.pdf
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--- Begin Message ---
I filled up my diesel truck today, I have a 40 gal aux tank and 2 built in
tanks of 18 gal and 15 gal for a total of 73 gal in all. I had about 5 gal left
and put in $150 or 60 gal and it still wasn't full...
I realized that the $150 represents 2.5 trojan batteries. I fill it all up
about every 2 weeks so in about 6 months I will have spent my 30 trojan battery
pack...
Fuel prices are just absurd.
I gotta finish my EV!!!!!
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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At 10:18 PM 24/07/05 -0400, Mike G wrote:
Getting back to my dilemma; Would it be possible to power the fields with
a constant current of whatever amps and run the armature off of a controller?
Yes, but the fields will only take 48V average, if your battery was 120V
and you used resistors to limit the field current, you'd be wasting a lot
of power in the field control. A PWM control that is good for 120V @ 20A or
so would be the solution, but getting such a beast may be interesting.
Or would it be better to install a resistor across the fields and run the
motor like a series motor?
Not sure what you mean by "across the fields", when you mention powering
the fields normally (for a shunt motor) above, and parallel to the armature
below, unless you mean a resistor as above.
Or would it be better to rewire the fields in parallel with the armature
with a current limiting resistor?
You would lack low-end torque relative to using it as a conventional shunt
motor.
Or would it be better to rewire the fields internally inside the motor in
parallel?
That would make them 24V instead of 48V, making the inefficiency worse.
I realize the best option might be to use another motor but I do not have
that option right now.
Could you rewind the fields?
For example, if the fields are in series now, they are equivalent to 24V
continuous each. Rewind them with 5x the wire of 1/5 the
resistance-per-turn. Put them in paralell off 120V for low RPM/high torque,
in series for high RPM/lower torque. Run the armature off a Zilla.
Jim Husted may have a better idea of the practicalities of rewinding, and
may have an idea of the cost to do this.
Otmar will know if a Zilla can control the paralell/series shift and be
happy doing so.
Hope this helps
James
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Yes, that's absurd. In the UK you would have paid 89.7p per litre,
and you put in 230 litres. That would be 206UKP for a fill up, or
about $360. But in theory, people drive more fuel efficient vehicles
over here. I'm always surprised that there aren't more EVs about
though.
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
On 7/25/05, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I filled up my diesel truck today, I have a 40 gal aux tank and 2 built in
> tanks of 18 gal and 15 gal for a total of 73 gal in all. I had about 5 gal
> left and put in $150 or 60 gal and it still wasn't full...
>
> I realized that the $150 represents 2.5 trojan batteries. I fill it all up
> about every 2 weeks so in about 6 months I will have spent my 30 trojan
> battery pack...
>
> Fuel prices are just absurd.
>
> I gotta finish my EV!!!!!
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is something that should at least get you running:
PHOENIX T81 800A+80A 96V
http://www.elektrosistem.com/
I enquired about this before and if I remember correctly there's a
120V version as well.
If you really want Zilla levels of power, I think you'll need to
replace the field windings with the ones from the series-wound version
of the motor. And use a Zilla :)
On 7/23/05, M.G. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am continuing on with my EV Audi conversion And if you remember I was
> able to salvage an 11 inch GE motor from a fork truck. The problem is I
> need a controller, the motor is a separately excited motor or sometimes
> called a shunt motor. I would like to use this motor with my nicads (
> Thanks Hump ).
> Could any body point me in the right direction to a zilla like
> performance controller.
> I also have the original controller which came with this motor but it is
> only rated for 48 volts. I think the controller was available in Europe
> for 80 volt operation but I do not have that available. I would like to
> either modify this controller or purchase one with a voltage rating of
> at least 150 volts nominal.
> Any suggestions are welcome.
> Mike G.
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I already have the truck.
I am looking for advice on which set up to use and especially the batteries
and voltage.
Thanks;
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Noel P. Luneau [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 6:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
There is an NL320 for sales as well.
http://www.manxsr.com/datsun_classified.htm
Noel
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any
distribution or use of this information by a person other than the intended
recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, this is a great project, thanks Ron!
"I ran my 12mm high 36,5mm diameter 18T motor up to 400W- with good
efficiecy at point of work."
I know that BLDCs are not often used in EVs, and one of the drawbacks
is said to be poor efficiency at part load. Does anyone have more
data on that?
On 7/22/05, Ron van Sommeren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Goedendag ;-)
>
> Ralph Okon (a.k.a. www.powerditto.de is putting together a group order
> for 40mm. diameter, 18pole statorlaminations. A minimum order of 5000
> laminations is needed to start a production run. Minimum order per
> person is 50. One 0.20mm lamination (NO20 iron quality) will cost
> 0.5€. Flux ring and frontplates will probably also be available by
> then. Keep in mind, this is not a business for Ralph, he's in the
> business of curing people :-)
>
> More info
> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392627
> http://www.powerditto.de/crocodile-projectengl.html
>
> Deutsch
> http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=88112&sid=&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=&page=4
> http://www.powerditto.de/crocodile-project.html
>
> Remember, this is not a commercial thing, it's a group design project
> from the diy motor builders at
> http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/board.php?boardid=29
>
> I'll post this in several lists/forums, think it's best if we all
> discussed/asked in thread above.
>
> Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
> near Nijmegen, the Netherlands
> Int. electric fly-in, Aug.28
> http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans/
>
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hump;
Good to hear from you.
I am looking for advice because I am really torn between performance and
range.
I live in a rural area and the nearest town is 9 miles and a more frequented
town is 15 miles each way.
I would hope to make the 30 mile round trip, but I would also like to have
descent performance.
My hope is to get some of the students at my wife's school interested in
Electric Vehicles.
I think that everyone will agree that the performance end of this equation
will get their attention.
Thanks;
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 8:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
Welcome to the EVDL Dennis! I think. You are new here, right?
Anyway, in case I'm right, let me say to those that don't know, dennis has
been a long time Elec-trakker and a regular contibutor to the elec-trak
list, so while he may be a newbie, he's not that new.
Sounds like a great project!!
Others will put in there 2kwh's I'm sure, but I'm thinking a 9", a Z2K, and
30 Orbitals. Or even a Siemans AC drive.
Roughly ballparking -- 1 mile per battery in a truck, but outstanding
performance.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated,
it develops into Arrogance, which is often fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address; send a request to ryan at
evsourcecom
> <<ATT1983995.txt>>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: 'EV Discussion Group'
> Sent: 7/22/2005 8:11 AM
> Subject: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
>
>
> After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
> would like to convert.
> 1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
> Really solid and rust free.
>
> Can you give me any advice on how to set it up?
>
> I would like this thing to have good performance with ~ 30 mile
> range.
> My wife is a school teacher, and I feel the best way to get young
> people interested in electric is to give them a taste of what these
> vehicles can really do.
> Everyone thinks that these are glorified golf carts.
>
> My biggest decision is batteries.
> There seems to be so many choices.
>
> This truck weighs in at 2085 lbs and has a GVW of close to 4000# so
I
> have a lot of options.
> I would although like to keep it as light as possible, so I can get
> the performance I would like
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks;
> Dennis
>
>
>
> <<ATT1983995.txt>>
>
>
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Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How many electric fans were used? If you didn't use 4 fans, did you have
some sort of cover installed around the brush housing such that the air
blown in by the fans is forced to travel through the motor case and out
the front (as it does with the internal mechanical fan)?
Or do your electric fans only blow air in on one end of the brush
housing, across the brushes and commutator, and then out the opposite
end of the brush housing?
I'm working on the same issue and have it almost worked out (on papaer.) I'm
going to use the same blower used for the heater/AC in the car. I'm buying a
second unit and mounting it above the motor in the engine compartment. It's a
single electric motor with two squirrel cage fans and a nice housing. I'm also
going to use the same switch and resistors. This will be completely seperate
from the original ventialtion system. It moves a fair amount of air and I can
easily adjust the speed if things heat up (based on the temp reading off the
thermocouple I hope to put in the positive brush.) I still have to figure out
how to make the housing to adapt to the motor. Probably will use the same
plastic I will use for the battery box liners, maybe .125" HDPE. I was thinking
of making four individual flanges to mount above the brushes and then run some
kind of duct from the fan to the inlets. Flexible hose? Rigid pipe? Not sure
yet but I'm looking for something with about a 3" diamete!
r.
I have another question about the internal fan of my ADC 9" motor. Right now it
moves air over the brushes, through the motor and out the other side. This will
provide the brushes (the hottest part?) with the most cooling. BUT, two things.
The fan is whimpy for EV applications, especially low RPM, high currrent
situations. Brush dust moves through the whole motor before exiting. Since I
should have plenty of air flow, can I remove the internal fan and reverse the
direction of air flow? I will be providing more than enough air. It will reduce
the rotational mass of the rotor. It will blow the brush dust out instead of
through the motor. It might be easier to build the inlet housing around the
opposite end of the motor. Is there any merit to this change? Does the fan
provide any spacing fo parts, such as a set for the bearing?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS Zilla is on the way!, Thanks Otmar, Ryan. Hopefully my adapter is under
construction and will be here soon. And I've almost got the heater housing out
to fabricate the electric heater replacement. EV by winter? Maybe. When will
soon be now?
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