EV Digest 4536
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Calrify Peukert effect
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Calrify Peukert effect
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: CUSHMAN ZEV Truck scoop
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Installing Heater Elements VW Rabbit/Cabriolet
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Wanted Albright/Curtis 200A-16 Contactor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re:Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Large Sealed Batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re:Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 15V Supplies for Battery Charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BadFishRacing)
15) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Newby: that EV grin
by Chris & Patrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Wanted Albright/Curtis 200A-16 Contactor.
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Newby: that EV grin
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Free One-Day Conversion Workshop
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Portland, OR visit
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) More tube questions for Lee and others...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee, this is very interesting idea. Since I have
graphics display, I can easily implement 2D readout.
Yes, I have read Mark's clever gadget, but voltage x current
is not quite the same as speed x range.
The problem is, even with this model, the range will
"breathe" back and forth depending on how you drive.
One must recognize, that in general *it is not possible*
to determine range ahead of time period. It is only
possible if you strictly stick to the driving pattern, and
other conditions like: 48.6mph, no accelerations, 0% incline,
18'C 1 year old battery.
BTW, also the gas consumption by ICE depends 9to the less degree)
on the driving pattern and conditions: if you hook the
trailer to your 20 mpg car and go on vacation, you *know*
your range is less, but you don't know how far you can go on
a tank now. We accept this because we don't care as long as we
can reach the next gas station.
I think to make an EV convenient and worry free, you really
need to know that you get to your destination no problem.
If you always do and can plug in there, it makes the interest
exactly how many Ah are left academic (for casual user, not
tech heads).
Back to the Peukert - I think I will store default Peukert
numbers for common batteries and allow a user to alter it
based on how well actual results agree with predictions.
There will be instructions how the numbers impact readouts,
and by how much to change them to make the best average match.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Batt gurus, I need a clearer understanding of this to be able
to quantify effect in the software - it was requested to adapt
a BMS for VRLA lead batteries as accurate as possible.
With Peukert and other equations, we have a reasonably good mathematical
description of a battery. The problem is, what do you want to *do* with
the data?
Due to the nature of a battery, you can't describe its state of charge
with a single number. It's multi-dimensional, and affected by many
things. At the very least, you need to two numbers; power and energy.
How much total energy does the battery contain, and at what rate can you
extract it? Time is a third number, because it affects both the power
and energy available.
I've struggled with this problem myself. What sort of "fuel gauge"
indicator should an EV have so even the casual non-technical driver can
understand it? I think it needs to display at least two parameters:
1. Energy remaining
Indicates something proportional to the remaining energy stored in the
battery; watthours, percent state of charge, pack voltage, amphours,
etc.
2. Power available
Indicates something proportional to the amount of power the battery
could deliver if asked to; watts, amps, horsepower, etc. Time is
strongly involved; the peak power available for 1 second is much more
than the power available for 1 minute, for example.
Display
The crossed-meter is about the simplest 2-dimensional display I know of.
Two analog meters, mounted so their pointers overlap. You "read" the
point where the pointers cross. The scale behind them has colors or
other indications of good/fair/bad for that combination of the two
variables. Mark Bruggeman posted a good description of this type of
display at http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
Or, you can simulate such a display with an X-Y array of LEDs. Suppose
you used a 5x7 matrix LED display, for example. The 5 vertical dots
could represent energy remaining (say 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% SOC).
The 7 horizontal dots represent power (say 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and
500 battery amps).
Your controller lights a number of LEDs to define a graph of the
available power and energy at the battery's present state of charge.
Labelling the axes "Range" and "Speed" provides a rough indication of
what it means to a non-technical driver. The more LEDs lit, the more
range and speed are available. The top right corner is dark because the
faster you drive, the less range you will get.
---------
R | oooo | Display with a full charge. Range drops a little
A | oooooo | with speed.
N | ooooooo |
G | ooooooo |
E | ooooooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | oo | As you drive, the top right corner grows.
A | oooo | This indicates that your range at high speeds
N | oooooo | is dropping, but you still have lots of range
G | ooooooo | at low speeds.
E | ooooooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Remaining range is now falling, no matter how
A | oo | slow you drive. Top speed is still not limited.
N | oooo |
G | oooooo |
E | ooooooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Half your charge is used up. You could still
A | | turn around and drive all the way home, but at
N | oo | very low speed. Top speed is also now being
G | oooo | reduced because batteries can no longer supply
E | oooooo | a sustained high current.
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Batteries nearly dead. You're down to half speed
A | | and most of your range is used up.
N | |
G | oo |
E | oooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Dead! The only way you can keep driving is at
A | | very low speed.
N | |
G | |
E | o |
---------
SPEED
The "slope" of the cut-off corner is going to change depending on the
battery type, condition, and temperature. With cold lead-acids, the
slope would be much steeper, like this:
---------
R | o | Plenty of range, but very limited speed due to
A | oo | cold batteries with lots of internal resistance.
N | ooo |
G | oooo |
E | ooooo |
---------
SPEED
I suppose you could use a 2-color LED, or blink them for additional
warning, or even to spell out messages. But the basic idea is a display
that even a novice could get the general idea of what it means by trial
and error.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:06 PM
Subject: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
>
>
> I should note that there is limited data on an "interrupted"
style
> CC finish charge that showed some promise. This is another story in
itself.
>
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
Quite so Bill ..
I find that the15 minutes is all it takes .....most of the time, to taper
back to less than two amps.
In fact I have seen the full current to less than 2 amps take about 5
minutes. Any more and you are waisting time.
And.... I only take about 1 to 1.5 Kw out of my pack on the quick juants
that are my habit.
Keep in mind I am looking for a VERY fast complete charge. Getting that
last couple of percent... takes time I don't have...or won't let have.
If I do a deep stroke... I have to reset the timer a few times... or dial it
up to about 30 minutes.
The minimum time from peak current to off, has paid off in the years of
cycle life and 1000s of cycles short , long, abused.... ETC.
Clearly when I am in recovery mode... I set the timer to longer times, or
just reset the charger acouple of times as I walk by. This helps.... not
hurts.
Also the Regs, as I have them setup... keep the charger from timing out....
until I get 15 minutes of clear...no Reg interupted full voltage time. This
is kind of hard to define.. but it seams to work rather well.
When the Regs pause the charger...it resets the timer....Well the old ones
on my PFC30 do. The newer ones should not.
When you and John Olson have 2500 Plus cycles on your Yts... Let me know how
many times they have been recycled.....
But I totally agree with your micro details of charging Yts... It just is
not that hard to get the rest of the watts on board.
On my Old YTs, I am not sure that there is "%8" left once they hit full V
and 2 amps of taper... they just about don't take a thing. Most of the Watts
end up on the regs.....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rich
No, you don't drill holes in the belt. You drill holes in the
bottom of each grove of the pulleys to let the air escape as the belt
fills it up.
Later
John Emde
---------------------------------------------
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:10:09 -0700 "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Why on Earth would we Want to get rid of that killer sound?????
> Oh save wasted watts, and keep it quite.
>
> I doubt that anybody is going to let us drill holes in those
> belts....
>
> But good idea... Thanks
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart"
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: Calrify Peukert effect
> The crossed-meter is about the simplest 2-dimensional display I know of.
> Two analog meters, mounted so their pointers overlap. You "read" the
> point where the pointers cross. The scale behind them has colors or
> other indications of good/fair/bad for that combination of the two
> variables. Mark Bruggeman posted a good description of this type of
> display at http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
This is one of the meters I was planning to build. The meter itself is from
http://www.mfjenterprises.com or call 1-800-647-8324. The new part number is:
400-0084A, $17.25 each plus $7 minimum s/h. It is a 3 inch cross-needle meter
that is used for 949e, 969, 989c antenna tuners and others.
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, here's the scoop I found out at lunch from Cushman 1-800-848-1636. The
on road car size drum brakes & suspension models 898 454 (air cooled) and
898 464 (water cooled) came in at 1370 lbs in 99'. They stopped making the
on-road vehicles in 2000 and made a ZEV 3-wheel version with 12ea T-145's, a
Curtis control and a GE motor with field weakening. Schematics, manuals can
be had from 1-800-362-8832 printers and the ZEV version is model 898 484 (to
ask for). Since only a few ZEV's were made, having both manuals (gas & EV)
would show best placement and mounting of components for conversion. the ZEV
version is rated an *honest* 40 miles per charge at 45mph (typical cruising
speed) at 72V nominal. I remember now seeing one at an EV show. The reason
they only made a 3-wheel on road version for the police (meter maids) is
it's licensed as a motorcycle and gets around the crash tests similar to
Corbin's escapades.
I found one in Miami for $25 on account of a few slight defects, it got
partially crushed on the right side. Now if I can find one that's partially
crushed on the left side I'd be in business!
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> Hi Tom,
> Thanks for the info. I found one at lunch yesterday, (the guy wanted $8k)
> but saw one in Miami junked for a few hundred. I felt the 3 drum brakes
and
> they appeared to be substantial at 8" diameter (unlike the whimpy 4-wheel
> version). He thought it would be fine at 45mph which he said it gets used
> at but probably not 55mph. Cushman said they stopped making the larger
> on-road vehicles in 2000 for liability reasons (maybe cops were tipping
over
> in hot pursuit at 45mph). It doesn't make any sense why they would make
the
> on road with bigger brakes/suspension a 3-wheel and make the 4-wheel a
> glorified golf cart. You would think that it would be the other way
around.
> Do you know the vehicle weight? I assume it would be more efficient than
a
> Metro conversion I did with 14 batts. I was thinking 10 T-105's in this
> thing under the rear bed would probably work. Under the bench seat would
be
> more centered for batteries and is usually generally better but due to the
> 3-wheel (turning, fallover problem) keeping the batteries more rearward
> would probably be more conducive to longevity.
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
> Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:18 PM
> Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
>
>
> > I've had experience driving a Cushman three-wheeled metermaidmobile.
> > It could indeed make an interesting electric vehicle conversion for
short
> > runs at moderate speeds. Its main shortcoming in my never so humble
> > opinion is that it only has three wheels. I won't get into the three
> wheels
> > versus four wheels debate which has been beaten to death here before.
> > I'll just say that I hate 3- wheeled vehicles; two wheels and four
wheels
> > are great but not three.
> >
> > The metermaidmobiles I'm familiar with have a two-cylinder air-cooled
> > engine and 3-speed manual transmission under the seat. Removing the
> > infernal combustion engine and coupling an electric motor to the
> > transmission should be rather straightforward.
> >
> > I have seen several Cushman 4-wheel electric scooters. They are indeed
> > completely different than the 3-wheelers. I've never driven a 4-wheeler
> > electric Cushman but I expect they would perform much like the golf
> > carts they resemble.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> >
> >
> > >I found a roadworthy Cushman police vehicle at lunch at a Cushman parts
> > > place suitable for a lightweight conversion. It turns out the
*3-wheel*
> > > versions made for meter maids had *much bigger* brakes, tires and a
> decent
> > > suspension. The 4-wheels are glorified golf carts with a max legal
> speed
> > > of
> > > 20mph, (teeny brakes, poor suspension, king-pin go-cart steering).
> > > Cushman
> > > apparently went back to selling just golf cart stuff 5 years ago they
> said
> > > due to liability reasons but the roadworthy 45mph police vehicles
looked
> > > like a possibility and the DMV lady said it was in her system to get a
> > > tag.
> > > He wanted $8k for his but now I know what tolook for with a lunched
> > > engine.
> > > Not as cool as a Smart car but it's here, lightweight and would be
> energy
> > > efficient (now that my electric rates went up 58% last month, 8c to
> 12.66c
> > > per kWh.
> > > Mark
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:58 AM
> > > Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Howdy Folk's
> > >> >
> > >> > I was curious if anyone has converted a Cushman truck and was able
to
> > > get
> > >> > 45mph with good handling and brakes. Looking at some photos of one
> on
> > >> > http://www.laidbackracing.com/files/try.jpg it looks awfully like
a
> > >> > Citi-Car which had terrible handling from a golf cart. Are there
> > >> > aftermarket modifications that can be done to widen the wheel base?
> > >> Bigger
> > >> > wheels? Better brakes? Front end stability?
> > >> >
> > >> > How are the brakes, are they 4-wheel drum or just a tranny
pincher?
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> > To: <[email protected]>
> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:18 AM
> > >> > Subject: CUSHMAN tags
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > I think they might make an ideal EV if I could get it street
> legal.
> > >> > Thanks, Mark
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 29, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Joel Silverman wrote:
I thought I would be proactive and I would like to
replace the Russco heater in my VW Cabriolet with
ceramic heaters while it is still summer. How do I
set this up? I can get the stock heater core out so
that is easy. How do I wire up the heaters?
This is easy, I did it in a Rabbit Pickup I built. First, I recommend 2
heaters unless you live in a mild climate. You need a sheet metal shop
to make a small box without a top the size of the heater core. You can
cut out the bottom to locate the heaters. You just take the little
square element with its frame out of the ceramic heaters.
I then routed the wires (use high temp wire) out where the coolant
tubes used to go. A little block off plate with 2 holes and grommets in
the firewall let the wires into the engine compartment. I would guess
you already have a stout DC rated relay to turn on the Russco element
so that part is covered. You want to hook up your new heaters to the
pack voltage circuit that was for the Russco element. This circuit
needs to be able to handle 30 amps for 2 heaters. Power for this relay
coil needs to be redirected however. You do not want the ceramic
heaters on unless the fan is on. The way I did this was to tap into the
fan low speed wire to power the relay and let the heater on-switch
ground the relay. The heater dropping resistor is about 2 ohms so there
is no problem pulling in the relay if the fan is on high. If the fan is
off now the heaters can't be on but if you turn off the fan with the
heater on you will notice the relay drops out slow. Never seemed to be
a problem in my experience but I didn't make doing that a habit (but I
forgot and did that plenty of times.)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 29, 2005, at 10:10 AM, Rich Rudman wrote:
I doubt that anybody is going to let us drill holes in those belts....
The idea is to drill little holes in pulley, right where the bottom of
the belt teeth sit, so air can get out when a tooth moves in. Of course
if those pulleys are solid...
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK two contactors. I guess the reason for series is if one fails the other
might work and the circuit will be broken. If in parallel one might weld
and game over. Thanks........LR..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The coil voltage is ok. I am only concerned with what will work
& what is safe. If I have to upgrade what is the best value in a
contactor? Kilovac?
Ok, if you want my opinion... One Albright SW200 will not safely switch
a 144v pack. If you have a 144v pack, use at least two SW200's in
series, both switched at the same time.
Or you can use a single Kilovac; the EV200 is cheaper, but weaker (won't
handle as much current as the Albright SW200). The EV250 has better
current ratings, but costs more than two Albright SW200's. Also, the
Kilovacs do not have replaceable contacts.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looking for a Contactor or a pair that will handle 144v.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not the belts the cogs. LR>..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:10 AM
Subject: Re:Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
Why on Earth would we Want to get rid of that killer sound?????
Oh save wasted watts, and keep it quite.
I doubt that anybody is going to let us drill holes in those belts....
But good idea... Thanks
RACE MODE ON!!!
Oh yea John's trusted Mac hickuped... and he wanted me to tell the
list that it's all ON for tonight.
I have the Drag radials, and I will be leaving for Portland as soon as I
get off this Damn PC.
We will be at the Woodburn drag strip for the Fridaynight Drags . Gates
open
at 3pm, If we are lucky we might be on site by 6 pm.
I have 250 miles to run, and I have to Gas up the Ranger... and load the
equipment.
Jim Coate will be there, Plasma Boy Tim and Jim, and Me(Madman).
We have some shake down tuning... and Raptor adjustments to make... We
should have a good time...
Lets not break something.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
In Madman Race Mode.... Helping others.. while my toys sit....unbroken.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
East Penn gives the big talk but I am skeptical as to real performance.
Their Scrubber batteries also list wet and bone dry. Does that mean you add
electrolyte upon delivery or????? Very confusing. Has anyone used the new
Deka batteries with success? Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:56 AM
Subject: RE: Large Sealed Batteries
I just recently (yesterday) got a quote from a local Deka distributor. The
8G24M is $102.45 with turn in and the 8G27M is $123 with turn in. That
works out to only $1.38 per amp hour on the group 24 and $1.43 for the
group
27 batteries. For a long life gel cell these are pretty cost effective
aren't they?
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Large Sealed Batteries
Lawrence, does it need to be AGM? Can Gel do? If so, check out the Deka
batteries. I think they may also have an aggresively priced AGM too.
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: July 27, 2005 4:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Large Sealed Batteries
Does there exist a Group 31 Sealed Lead Acid battery which is the equal of
Exides or Optimas. I have seen some Trojans. Is there a Hawker that
doesn't
cost an arm and a leg? Looking for around 60 pounds. Optimas(60 pound
group 31) don't seem to be a good option. What's left?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Were are on for Woodburn tonight! As Madman pointed out, we are
hoping to be at the track and ready to rock by 6:00pm... fingers crossed. All
local EVers are welcome to come by and cheer us on. Bring video cameras if
you've got them.
Jeffery Bywater will be driving the Silver Bullet and will be hoping to set
a new world record for the 156V street legal class. Hope to see you all there!
See Ya...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You don't drill holes in the belts, you drill holes in the cogs (pullies,
whatever). .
With enough patience,
you can milk a porcupine
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 10:10 AM
Subject: Re:Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
Why on Earth would we Want to get rid of that killer sound?????
Oh save wasted watts, and keep it quite.
I doubt that anybody is going to let us drill holes in those belts....
But good idea... Thanks
RACE MODE ON!!!
Oh yea John's trusted Mac hickuped... and he wanted me to tell the
list that it's all ON for tonight.
I have the Drag radials, and I will be leaving for Portland as soon as I
get off this Damn PC.
We will be at the Woodburn drag strip for the Fridaynight Drags . Gates
open
at 3pm, If we are lucky we might be on site by 6 pm.
I have 250 miles to run, and I have to Gas up the Ranger... and load the
equipment.
Jim Coate will be there, Plasma Boy Tim and Jim, and Me(Madman).
We have some shake down tuning... and Raptor adjustments to make... We
should have a good time...
Lets not break something.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
In Madman Race Mode.... Helping others.. while my toys sit....unbroken.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rex,
I use a bad boy to bring my pack up. Then hook up the 15V toshiba laptop power
supplies. I've got 2 boxes with 4 PS to a box, with 3A ammeters. So I can
plug all 8 batteries in and see who's pullling the least/most current. I'll
shut down the ones that get full first. Also got a low range, 14.3V (1 diode)
in case the batts are trying to pull more than the supply wants to deliver.
Works for me.
Darin
-------------- Original message from Rex Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
--------------
> Has anyone used individual 15V power supplies for
> charging AGMs or Flooded batteries? What are the
> disadvantages? It seems that balancers and a bulk
> charger is the most common method? If this is an old
> thread could someone point me two this previous
> discussion?
> Thanks,
> Rex
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
--- Marc Michon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Myles or Shawn
> I want to put cooling fan on my etek in motorcycle
> forced air 4.72" dia fan at brush cover end of
> perferated
> cap
First take a hole saw or other and cut out all but
the border of the cover to actually get some air
moving thru it.
> will work as well sucking air out?
No, much less eff that way.
> would suck air through motor out brush cap would
> work as well as blowin in
> through brush cap and out slots on outside dia. of
> motor?
No. It is designed so the air is sucked in the cap
so with your little fan would completely stop any air
movement if you tried to suck it out. So blow to add
the fan's air to the designed airflow.
If you are in a enviroment that needs it, use a
screen bag like on the fan.
A blower squirrel cage type fan has more pressure
and would work better than a box fan will if you need
more cooling.
> a 88cfm or 130 cfm enough air?
Put a temp gauge on it and find out.
> or need more powerfull fan?
> runing in this 108 degree tempature i can use all
> the cooling i can get
Yes you do depending on how you are loading it. So
help the air flow as it was designed and open the cap
or whatever you do won't help.
Keeping the rotor and brushes cool is the
important part.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> Marco
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 1:34 PM
> Subject: RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK
> motors
>
>
> > Shawn suggested:
> >
> > > Not just forced air, but good air flow around
> the motor is also very
> > > important. Keeping the motor more exposed to
> allow the ambient heat to
> > > dissipate quickly helps.
> >
> > Noone can argue that keeping the shell cool is a
> good idea, but forcing
> air
> > THRU the motor is essential if it's drawing more
> than 50amps steady. And
> > cooling the external case will do little to keep
> the ETEK from thermal
> > runaway if you're in the 100amp+ range. Even if
> you blow air at the case
> > slits, the air will go around the motor before it
> goes thru it. So sure,
> > you may cool the case, but the armature and
> commutator overheat and the
> > motor fries. Force cooling air thru the armature
> where the heat gets
> > generated (easy to do with the ETEK) and the heat
> never gets to the case
> in
> > the first place---I can run my ETEK at 36v with
> 150amps continuous with
> the
> > case only barely getting warm inside an outboard
> motor cowling on my boat.
> > Meanwhile, the cooling exhaust temperature is a
> nice hand-warming
> > temperature. Only thing I can do better is to
> replace the non-perforated
> > brush cap with the perforated one to help keep
> them cool.
> >
> > Here's a question: which way is it best to blow
> the air thru the ETEK?
> From
> > the brush end or TO the brush end? With my
> outboard boat motor
> > installation, air flow was initially from
> top-bottom (i.e. from the brush
> > end down). Later I changed the airflow direction
> to blow axially up thru
> > the motor towards the brushes. This ensured
> pulling cooler air from the
> > bottom of the outboard, up thru the motor, thru
> the fan and up towards the
> > cowling exhaust port. But there was nothing
> ensuring the air would
> exhaust
> > thru that port, and instead was allowed to
> recirculate in my motor cowling
> > (which slowly got warmer and warmer). This led to
> the addition of an
> > exhaust plenum at the top of the motor cowling
> above the fan----motor and
> > motor case then stayed cool.
> >
> > -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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--- Begin Message ---
Greetings all - Newby with a big (yet modest, see below) EV grin here.
Just purchased a used conversion project (details below) through the EV
Tradin' Post, and after a small operator-ignorance-based snafu, finally
charged and successfully completed a maiden voyage along our (somewhat
modified, due to hills) commute path.
First: Boy, what a HOOT to be driving along and realize you'll never, EVER
have to put any gas in the non-existent tank! Let me repeat that: EV's are a
HOOT! :-)
Secondly: this is definitely not the final product EV we'd been
contemplating, but rather a get-your-feet-wet-and-make-your-mistakes-on-this
type EV. It's a cheap, tiny, cheap, underpowered (did I mention cheap?)
little rollerskate that needs to have the conversion wrapped up, cleaned up,
tidied up and finalized (although it IS functional) - and probably upgraded.
So that's the context - a 0-60 in 6 seconds tricked out collectible Datsun
pickup, it ain't (but just wait till our next one!).
What we've learned so far is that Seattle's hills are killers. With
ostensibly a 20 mile range, we made our 13 mile commute, but the li'l thing
struggled to stay in the 25-30 mph range and was pretty tired by the time we
got home. There's a relatively steep grade coming up to our house, and I was
dropping below 10 mph in 1st gear before I crested it (luckily, a
residential street). The two uphill parts of our commute I worry most about
have two lanes in each direction, so at least folks can pass. Yes, I know
there will be cringing at an EV performing in exactly the
negative-stereotype we'd like to avoid (I'm cringing as well, trust me), but
the plan is to upgrade to avoid this, which brings me to the last part of
this post.
Given the specs below, what upgrade path(s) might be reasonable? Simply
installing a higher voltage controller? Something else? All at once or
several steps?
Our mission (for THIS project) is an in-town commuter. While our commute is
typically 13 miles, we'd like to be able to run an errand or two as well -
hopefully a "real" range of 20 miles would be feasible. We'd also like to be
able to handle grades without falling below 35 mph or so, and just not be so
generally poky (and embarrass the rest of you). Obviously, this is a starter
project - we'd like to save the overkill for our NEXT project.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts and/or advice anyone might care to share.
- Patrick & Chris Clarke
Specs:
1991 Geo Metro, 5 speed
Batteries: Twelve (three banks of four) Group 24 12V Deep Cycles, replacing
rear seat
Motor: Prestolite 4001, rated at 48V continuous (but according to prev.
owner can run up to 96V, and will do over 70 mph - at 60V, did 55 mph)
Controller: AllTrax 48V controller on heatsink (reads "0-5K ohm throttle" on
side)
Vacuum pump powered brakes
Range: 20 mph
Top Speed: 35 mph
Upgrades: According to previous owner, 72 volt would be best and would
require a new controller and the batts to be reconfigured to 2 banks of 6
(still 12 total)
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes writes:
>
> Looking for a Contactor or a pair that will handle 144v.
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=831&product_id=1617
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch. You may have mortally wounded your batteries by running them down so
far on the first trip. Join the club. <g>
You will get about as many opinions as posters here, so I'll weigh in with
the one that some people will probably trash. <g>
Given what you're doing, I think your PO may be on the right track.
To put it bluntly, 12 volt flooded marine batteries such as you have now are
not really suitable for road EVs. They will never give you a good service
life.
I would think about twelve 6-volt golf car batteries, T-125 type. This
would increase battery weight from ~660 lb to around ~780 lb. That's a fair
bit for that little car, but the increase is no worse than a (somewhat
substantial) extra passenger. You will be a bit over GVWR, but Metros have
taken more than that. Seems to me that the folks at EVsNW used to build
Metros with 72 volt golf car packs, but I might be remembering wrong.
This would give you roughly 1/3 of your total weight in lead, so a 40 mile
max range would be quite possible.
Golf car batteries are forgiving of the errors that all of us make when new,
and aren't so horribly expensive when you murder your first pack (which
almost everybody does). In fact they are the cheapest per mile of service,
hands down. They don't deliver the raw power that AGM batteries such as
Optimas do, and they do need regular maintenance and cleaning, but they're
MUCH cheaper and can use a MUCH cheaper charging system.
Try to move at least some of the batteries under the hood for better
balance. Having them all behind the seats makes a car feel like riding a
light bicycle with a 30 lb backpack on - kind of teetery.
Another option would be to use 8 volt golf car batteries. This would get
you 96 volts, for brisker accelration and higher top speed, at the cost of
somewhat shorter battery life. Again, I'd stay away from 12 volt flooded
marine batteries.
That motor (sounds like an old US Electricar Lectric Leopard motor) should
do OK on 72 volts. Keep an eye on it for overheating and add a blower if it
needs it and doesn't have it. At 72v I'm guessing you should get a top
speed in the range of around 55 mph, plenty for an in-town commuter.
Accleration won't be blazing, but with a 550 or 600 amp controller should be
almost as good as the low-end Geo Metro was before conversion, at least up
to 30mph or so. Don't worry about embarassing anybody; you're the one who
is driving it, so satisfy yourself. Think about defeating EV stereotypes on
your ^next^ project if you must.
You do know to hold the trans in lower gears as long as possible, right?
Don't upshift too early. Stay in lower gears for lower motor heat and
better range, upshift if you run out of steam and/or need faster
acceleration. Yes, UPSHIFT for more acceleration!
Controller:
A lot of folks like the Zilla controllers. The Z1K would make your car
perform fairly briskly. The current would be a tad rough on golf car
batteries if you had trouble controlling your right foot, but you could turn
down the current limit to 600 amps or so. At full current, you'd get 72kw
output, more than enough for a light car IMO; at 600 amps, 43kw. (Actually
all kw ratings are a bit less than I write here, since I'm ignoring battery
voltage sag.) I haven't used a Zilla but I hear they're very nice
controllers, quite flexible, but a Z1K might be a bit pricey for your goals
at around $2k.
In the 72 volt range you can stay with Alltrax brand. The Axe 7245 is
^quite^ reasonably priced at about $650. However, if you now have the 4865,
this will not be much of an improvement because both controllers provide
power in th 32kw range. If you are running a lower current Axe such as the
4834, 4844, 4845 or 4855, the 7245 will indeed send more power to the
wheels, but how much difference you'll see depends on which you have now.
One downside with the Axe is that if you decided later to try higher
voltage, you'd be out of luck; 72v is max with this box.
A Curtis 1231C-7701, a 72-120 volt 550 amp controller, is a possible middle
ground. It would give you nearly 40kw for around $1400, and the chance to
experiment with higher voltages, if you were so inclined later. Some folks
here diss this controller because it makes a whine at very low pedal
positions, but with that motor IMO it won't be objectionable. This box is a
workhorse. A lot have been sold in past years, and you may be able to find
one used for $700 - $1000.
You might need a new charger too - you don't say what you have now, so I
don't know whether it could be modified for 72 volts.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could your car be converted to run on batteries instead of gas? Would it
provide the speed and range you need? How hard is it to convert? What does
it cost to convert and operate an electric car? These questions and others
will be answered in a free one-day workshop sponsored by the Electric Auto
Association.
The early portion of the talk will cover general information about
conversions - cost, performance, environmental issues, etc. Then speaker
Mike Brown will get into the nuts and bolts, from choosing a suitable
chassis, stripping it, installing the components and wiring, to charging,
maintenance, and driving techniques. The public is encouraged to attend,
and questions are welcome. Several electric cars will be on hand for
examination during breaks.
Make an EV weekend of it, and come for the Silicon Valley EAA EV Rally the
day before. For rally info, go to http://www.eaasv.org
Presenters: Mike Brown & Shari Prange of Electro Automotive
Date: Sunday, Sept. 25, 2005
Time: 10:00 am - 5:00 pm
Place: Hewlett Packard Bldg. #48, 19483 Pruneridge Ave., Cupertino, CA,
Oak Room Auditorium.
Cost: Free
Lunch: There will be a one-hour break for lunch. Bring a bag lunch.
More Info: Call Electro Automotive at 831-429-1989.
Space is limited. Advance registration is requested. There is no cost for
the workshop, and no obligation. Please register by phone, or on our web
site at http://www.electroauto.com/workshop.shtml
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andrew Letton wrote:
> If two SW200's are used, do they have to be immediately adjacent
> to each other electrically to have the 2x voltage capacity, or
> could one be at the "top" of the pack and the second one be
> located mid-pack (at the 72V point) with the same effect?
As long as they are in series, it won't matter where they are. You could
put one in the pack+ and one in the pack- legs, for example (that's
where I have mine). When the contactors are off, the pack is completely
disconnected.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I talked to John W. briefly this evening as he is preparing for the
Woodburn drag strip run... and an Italian EV dinner is in the works for
Saturday evening after Mark's plane lands.
And I'm hoping to catch a few minutes of the drag strip tonight as I'm
in the area!
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More tube questions, if you don't mind:
What would you say would be the advantages/disadvantages of tubes over
current transistor technology, with respect to motor control? I suppose I
could
list a few to start:
1) Tubes are less efficient (and generate more heat)
2) Tubes are bigger
3) Victor says there is a potential for filaments to be unreliable in a
vibration environment (although I know there are military spec tubes available
which are supposed to mitigate this at least somewhat)
4) Availability? (They probably don't make many anymore, if at all)
Could you list more? For instance...
1) Are tubes typically cheaper?
2) Do they typically handle more power?
3) Are they easier to work with, easier to design circuits with?
4) Are they "tougher" or harder to hurt?
5) Are they more maintainable? I can imagine opening up a controller,
pulling a blown tube, and chunking in a new one quite easily. You can't do
that
with transistors I figure, at least as easily.
6) Etc.
Another question. Under what basic model do tubes operate, anyway? I know
the ultra-basic model for a transistor - it's a switch. Throw the switch =
power on max. Unthrow the switch = power off. Throw it on and off real fast,
at
some ratio of on time to off time, and you get power somewhere between 0 and
max. But tubes aren't like this. So what do they do to get a variable
current (or voltage)? Note that I am not asking for some super-detailed,
highly
technical explanation about emitters, screens, grids, etc. That would make my
eyes glaze over. I just want to know what the damn thing is, and what it does,
i.e. "It's a switch, and you just turn it on and off real fast" or some such
basic explanation.
Thanks.
Sam
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