EV Digest 4537
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1965 Datsun Truck - Future Electric Vehicle
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summary
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 15V Supplies for Battery Charging
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Insight battery pic / Thunder Sky question
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 3 wheel EV's trike pick up, and CUSHMAN Truck
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summary
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 3 wheel EV's trike pick up, and CUSHMAN Truck
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) AC Inverter question
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: AC Inverter question
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Newby: that EV grin
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Listserver error or a problem on my end?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Installing Heater Elements VW Rabbit/Cabriolet
by Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: More tube questions for Lee and others...
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 15V Supplies for Battery Charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BadFishRacing)
18) Microcars & recumbent cycle designs. Very obscure.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: More tube questions for Lee and others...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC Inverter question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Newby: that EV grin
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) New Battery Question
by "Jeff Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) DC Current Controller
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) What're they worth?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: New Battery Question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> After looking at this for over 5 years, I finally found the truck I
> would like to convert. 1965 Datsun N320 Pickup.
Does it still run? On gas? Or is it already a glider?
How about going primarily for performance, I'm thinking since it's
a rear drive truck, splice the motor into the rear drive shaft.
Install the smallest battery pack that gets you the performance.
Try for a regenning controller and leave the engine installed.
Might be able to fit it all under a re-hinged bed for easy access.
Now you don't have to worry about range and can use gas for that.
But you can shut it down, put it in neutral, and show off some
of the EV performance, or run the engine and motor for some serious
tractor pulling type power levels from the small Datsun package.
Anyway, that's just my thoughts, not sure how practical it would
be of if it's even technically possible. But I'm gonna keep
tossing that out there till someone either proves me wrong or right.
L8r
Ryan
ps. What a nice truck! Shucks, convert the ICE to burn H2 and call
it a Hydrogen Electric Hybrid, maybe get some Gov funding! <Grin>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> Hello Felix and Ron,
>
> Your work is exciting and vital to our environmental/energy needs. It's
> very much appreciated.
>
> Toshiba made an announcement of a LiIon battery coming onto the market in
> 2006 with the capability of being recharged to 80% of capacity in one minute
> and loss of 1% of capacity after 1,000 cycles. To be able to recharge that
> much energy into a battery tends to say that Toshiba has found a way around
> major thermal runaway issues as well as longevity issues. Any thoughts on
> how this will benefit a PRIUS+ ?
Ron's post was a great read, and he intentionally avoided these new
Toshibas and Sony High Rate Lithium... Untill they become available.
But that's doesn't stop me from commenting on them! Basically they
would deliver recharge capabilities several times greater than any
grid connection you could find, but dump packs could get you an 80%
1 minute charge with a full chanrg in 5 to 10 minute, irregardless
of your capacity, 40 miles to 300 miles.
Their high rate means that unlike ACPs T-Zero which required 300
miles of range for descent performance, with these you could use
a tiny little 30 mile pack with the same level of power!
And with 20,000 cycle life, ok, ok, 50% of that, 10,000 cycle life!
Just do the math! 300 mile range exclusively BEV use is 3,000,000
miles of life till 80%. A 30 mile pack, still used exclusively
in EV mode with no Hybrid Help would deliver 300,000 miles till 80%!
And that's all at 50% their clamed ratings....
Anyway it's all due primarily to a nano-process anode construction.
So it's a better design at the atomic level, more surface area and
more uniform, such new processes could be used along side the things
that Valence is doing with their less "Volitile" Saphion cells slury.
L8r
Ryan
ps. I'm in agreeance with Jerry on further downsizing the ICE in
Hybrids. I mean if my 3 cyl 1 Liter Insight can maintain 110mph
for a full tank of gas there's no reason a 1 cyl 0.3 Liter version
couldn't maintain 65mph, or a 2 cylinder 0.6 liter maintain 90mph.
If it's primarily a Performance BEV, then the ICE isn't required
for accelleration at all, it's mearly there for steady state use.
ps. Got a new 05 Prius, 40mpg at 80mph, 50mpg at 60mph with AC on.
I'm getting 55 - 60 mpg durring commutes, durring the break in period.
Got the EV-button installed and it's an entirely different vehicle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BadFishRacing wrote:
"I use a bad boy to bring my pack up. Then hook up the 15V Toshiba
laptop power supplies. I've got 2 boxes with 4 PS to a box, with 3A
ammeters. So I can plug all 8 batteries in and see who's pulling the
least/most current. I'll shut down the ones that get full first.
Also got a low range, 14.3V (1 diode) in case the batts are trying to
pull more than the supply wants to deliver."
Do you do that everyday? Is it all hooked up all the time and you
just plug it in and go to bed and it's charged by morning? Or do you
have to stay there with it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the Thunder Sky battery built using this method?
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/511/insight1eq.jpg
Wouldn't it be cheaper to make it more conventionally then using all
those smaller batteries?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom and All,
--- Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've had experience driving a Cushman three-wheeled
> metermaidmobile.
> It could indeed make an interesting electric vehicle
> conversion for short
> runs at moderate speeds. Its main shortcoming in my
> never so humble
> opinion is that it only has three wheels. I won't
A 3wh ICE and an EV version are 2 completely
different animals.
While you are correct about high CG 3wh vehicles,
an EV version has a CG about 1' lower!! Thus giving
much better handling. In the E woody and my future 3wh
EV the CG is about 13-14", les tham most sportscars so
if it is place correctly 1/3 inside the 2 wheels, a
3wh EV can handle really well.
If it is a 2f1r 3wh EV designed correctly, can
even outhandle the best sportscars!
But designed wrong with high and not equal weight
on each wheel, can kill!!
So it's not if it has 3wheels, but how well it's
designed!
Because of the ability of the battery pack weight
to greatly lower, correctly place the CG, 3wheels and
EV's are made for each other making each other better.
The batts improve handling and 3wheels keeps it
light!!
Make sure you get a title before buying one of
these as in most states it's almost impossible to get
one if it doesn't come with it.
> get into the three wheels
> versus four wheels debate which has been beaten to
> death here before.
> I'll just say that I hate 3- wheeled vehicles; two
> wheels and four wheels
> are great but not three.
>
> The metermaidmobiles I'm familiar with have a
> two-cylinder air-cooled
> engine and 3-speed manual transmission under the
> seat. Removing the
> infernal combustion engine and coupling an electric
> motor to the
> transmission should be rather straightforward.
Or just pop in a high powered GC transaxle like
the one used in 8-12 pass CG's, Citi-cars, Commuta
Vans as it will bolt right in!! These are the most
reliable EV drives available!!
Maybe get one with a little more width or offset
rims to get better cornering, stability.
While I wouldn't think the Cushman was ideal, as
an EV it can be a nice, safe, inexpensive errand
runner. I'd love to have one.
In fact I just built a trike pickup similar except
it doesn't have a roof. An article about building
inexpensive EV's of which it is the first, will be
published shortly in ESSN newsletter online in the
next issue.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
> I have seen several Cushman 4-wheel electric
> scooters. They are indeed
> completely different than the 3-wheelers. I've
> never driven a 4-wheeler
> electric Cushman but I expect they would perform
> much like the golf
> carts they resemble.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:43 AM
> Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
>
>
> >I found a roadworthy Cushman police vehicle at
> lunch at a Cushman parts
> > place suitable for a lightweight conversion. It
> turns out the *3-wheel*
> > versions made for meter maids had *much bigger*
> brakes, tires and a decent
> > suspension. The 4-wheels are glorified golf carts
> with a max legal speed
> > of
> > 20mph, (teeny brakes, poor suspension, king-pin
> go-cart steering).
> > Cushman
> > apparently went back to selling just golf cart
> stuff 5 years ago they said
> > due to liability reasons but the roadworthy 45mph
> police vehicles looked
> > like a possibility and the DMV lady said it was in
> her system to get a
> > tag.
> > He wanted $8k for his but now I know what tolook
> for with a lunched
> > engine.
> > Not as cool as a Smart car but it's here,
> lightweight and would be energy
> > efficient (now that my electric rates went up 58%
> last month, 8c to 12.66c
> > per kWh.
> > Mark
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > Howdy Folk's
> >> >
> >> > I was curious if anyone has converted a Cushman
> truck and was able to
> > get
> >> > 45mph with good handling and brakes. Looking
> at some photos of one on
> >> > http://www.laidbackracing.com/files/try.jpg it
> looks awfully like a
> >> > Citi-Car which had terrible handling from a
> golf cart. Are there
> >> > aftermarket modifications that can be done to
> widen the wheel base?
> >> Bigger
> >> > wheels? Better brakes? Front end stability?
> >> >
> >> > How are the brakes, are they 4-wheel drum or
> just a tranny pincher?
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > To: <[email protected]>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:18 AM
> >> > Subject: CUSHMAN tags
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > I think they might make an ideal EV if I
> could get it street legal.
> >> > Thanks, Mark
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fortunat and All,
--- Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> You are right, I looked back at my notes from the
> SAE
> meeting and the sizing case wasn't a 10% grade, but
> a
> 6% one. None the less, a pretty steep hill.
>
> I was dubious, but there are a number of mountain
> passes (not just in the alps) that have > 10% grade
> in
> long stretches and > 6 % grade for an hour or so
> (effectively continuously).
No, it's not effectively cont. At 70mph at steady
6% grade, how many feet will you rise in 1 hr? Could
you or someone calculate it?
I'll bet it's higher than the highest Alps from
sea level.
>
> Jerry, maybe your 15 hp, large battery hybrid can
Again, it is not 15hp. I said 5-7hp/1000lbs which
would be 20-28hp in general and specificly said
25-30hp for the Prius so will easily handle this grade
for much longer than it can be phyically done.
> maintain speed up this hill with battery assist
*if*
> the battery happens to be fully charged when you
> start
> up it. But that won't always be the case (especially
> if you set up your engine controls to maximize the
> use
> of EV mode). So then what do you do ?
In real life you will hit stretches of flatter,
slower traffic, or even downhill in your rise to the
top.
With the 25-30hp engine capable of handling most
of the power needed up grade then when it slacks off
as it must if you don't want to get above Mt Everest,
will recharge the batts.
>
> I agree that it seems like such a waste to haul
> around
> all that motor all the time for this rare case, but
> if
> your customer demands a 'fully functional' car, what
> else can you do ?
It is a fully functioning EV dominated hybrid when
the Prius is done this way! And with my Freedom EV be
able to do the same with an 11hp generator series
hybrid because of it's lightweight, aerodynamics.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
> ~fortunat
>
>
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Finally, when sizing the IC engine for a hybrid,
> > you
> > > can't consider the average highway drive
> > condition.
> > > You need to consider the maximum sustained load
> > > requirement (not max transient, but max load
> > expected
> > > semi-continuously). Most of the time, this is
> > > something like a 10% grade at 120 km/hr (at 40
> deg
> > C
> > > and 2500 m, against the wind).
> >
> > Hmm, while I agree with most of what you
> > said...where on earth is there a
> > 10% grade that lasts for any length of
> > time/distance? Climbing the Alps
> > maybe?
> >
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
> these new
> Toshiba and Sony High Rate Lithium... Until they become available.
And these will be out when, and cost how much, and what will their amp hours be?
With current lithium battery packs costing ~$20,000 - $30,000+, that's
only part of it. What about a general purpose, universal, low cost
BMS? How much is one of those?
Do lithium's have what it takes to get into the "100 mph club" and beyond?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
> If it is a 2f1r 3wh EV designed correctly, can
> even outhandle the best sportscars!
I've always wondered about how 3 wheels would compare to 4 in a racing
environment. If we were to take an existing Nascar and a Formula 1
car and convert each to 3 wheels, and race them against the existing 4
wheel cars, would 3 wheels give an advantage?
How about in drag racing? Could a 3 wheel front wheel drive car have
it's weight reduced if the rear was converted to one wheel?
Rear wheel would have power transfer issues and reduced traction due
to only one tire in the rear. Just one tire in the front would
potentially have steering issues.
Imagine a Top Fuel car with just one front tire. Safer? Better?
What is a racing class that could potentially be dominated by a 3
wheel car if one was to enter a race?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there ~$30,000 worth of components in this box?
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1371/lopen6au.jpg
Is that the only way to build an inverter? Name one thing that is
more complex then the inverter in that picture.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a Siemens Simovert long inverter:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/l_open-s.gif Victor used to sell them for
a quite a bit less than $30,000, maybe $6,000?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: July 29, 2005 8:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AC Inverter question
Is there ~$30,000 worth of components in this box?
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1371/lopen6au.jpg
Is that the only way to build an inverter? Name one thing that is more
complex then the inverter in that picture.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like you have an interesting project on your hands.
You must raise the voltage. Going from 48 to 96 volts would
approximately double the motor speed and horsepower. You
might be able to go even higher like 120 or 144 volts. Have some
serious talks with people on this list who have detailed information
about your motor at higher voltage.
You do need better batteries. I'd consider a set of Optimas. Of course,
you'll need a new controller and charger and all the other things it takes
to do a modern conversion correctly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris & Patrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Newby: that EV grin
Greetings all - Newby with a big (yet modest, see below) EV grin here.
Just purchased a used conversion project (details below) through the EV
Tradin' Post, and after a small operator-ignorance-based snafu, finally
charged and successfully completed a maiden voyage along our (somewhat
modified, due to hills) commute path.
First: Boy, what a HOOT to be driving along and realize you'll never, EVER
have to put any gas in the non-existent tank! Let me repeat that: EV's are
a
HOOT! :-)
Secondly: this is definitely not the final product EV we'd been
contemplating, but rather a
get-your-feet-wet-and-make-your-mistakes-on-this
type EV. It's a cheap, tiny, cheap, underpowered (did I mention cheap?)
little rollerskate that needs to have the conversion wrapped up, cleaned
up,
tidied up and finalized (although it IS functional) - and probably
upgraded.
So that's the context - a 0-60 in 6 seconds tricked out collectible Datsun
pickup, it ain't (but just wait till our next one!).
What we've learned so far is that Seattle's hills are killers. With
ostensibly a 20 mile range, we made our 13 mile commute, but the li'l
thing
struggled to stay in the 25-30 mph range and was pretty tired by the time
we
got home. There's a relatively steep grade coming up to our house, and I
was
dropping below 10 mph in 1st gear before I crested it (luckily, a
residential street). The two uphill parts of our commute I worry most
about
have two lanes in each direction, so at least folks can pass. Yes, I know
there will be cringing at an EV performing in exactly the
negative-stereotype we'd like to avoid (I'm cringing as well, trust me),
but
the plan is to upgrade to avoid this, which brings me to the last part of
this post.
Given the specs below, what upgrade path(s) might be reasonable? Simply
installing a higher voltage controller? Something else? All at once or
several steps?
Our mission (for THIS project) is an in-town commuter. While our commute
is
typically 13 miles, we'd like to be able to run an errand or two as well -
hopefully a "real" range of 20 miles would be feasible. We'd also like to
be
able to handle grades without falling below 35 mph or so, and just not be
so
generally poky (and embarrass the rest of you). Obviously, this is a
starter
project - we'd like to save the overkill for our NEXT project.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts and/or advice anyone might care to
share.
- Patrick & Chris Clarke
Specs:
1991 Geo Metro, 5 speed
Batteries: Twelve (three banks of four) Group 24 12V Deep Cycles,
replacing
rear seat
Motor: Prestolite 4001, rated at 48V continuous (but according to prev.
owner can run up to 96V, and will do over 70 mph - at 60V, did 55 mph)
Controller: AllTrax 48V controller on heatsink (reads "0-5K ohm throttle"
on
side)
Vacuum pump powered brakes
Range: 20 mph
Top Speed: 35 mph
Upgrades: According to previous owner, 72 volt would be best and would
require a new controller and the batts to be reconfigured to 2 banks of 6
(still 12 total)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> No, it's not effectively cont. At 70mph at
> steady
> 6% grade, how many feet will you rise in 1 hr?
> Could
> you or someone calculate it?
22000 ft.....
not quite everest, but your point is well taken.
i am not defending this particular method for sizing
the IC engine (or fuel cell) in a hybrid, but I am
reporting that this is how it is currently done by the
automakers.
> Again, it is not 15hp. I said 5-7hp/1000lbs
> which
> would be 20-28hp in general and specificly said
> 25-30hp for the Prius so will easily handle this
> grade
> for much longer than it can be phyically done.
oh, well 30 hp sounds like a much more reasonable size
for an IC engine in a full size hybrid. If the prius
were mine to design, I think i would keep the same
overall power level (~120 hp) but invert the
ic/electric ratio so the electric is 70hp and the IC
is 50. Of course, i would also triple the capacity of
the battery...
unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the way the
hybrids are going now. As far as I can tell, they are
all moving up-market and becoming just another way for
the american car buyer to get his 250 hp fix in a
family sedan.
but i digress.
~fortunat
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can Contactors of different ratings be mixed? Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
Andrew Letton wrote:
If two SW200's are used, do they have to be immediately adjacent
to each other electrically to have the 2x voltage capacity, or
could one be at the "top" of the pack and the second one be
located mid-pack (at the 72V point) with the same effect?
As long as they are in series, it won't matter where they are. You could
put one in the pack+ and one in the pack- legs, for example (that's
where I have mine). When the contactors are off, the pack is completely
disconnected.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
I haven't received any digests (or anything for that matter) in the last
few days. I checked the archives to see if others were having problems,
and didn't see any complaints. I tried re-subscribing, and still nothing.
Is anyone else having any problems? Does anyone have any suggestions?
Please send e-mail direct to me as I might not otherwise see it.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and Netgain WarP motors at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Paul ,
I just purchased that little white Rabbit Pickup and brought it from
Joplin Missouri to Kansas City last Thursday. I'm sure I will have some
questions for you when I get better acquainted with this beautiful
little truck.
What a nice job of conversion. It is very interesting to see all the
receipts for parts and materials.
Nameste'
Don Buckshot
913-789-0889
Paul G. wrote:
On Jul 29, 2005, at 8:30 AM, Joel Silverman wrote:
I thought I would be proactive and I would like to
replace the Russco heater in my VW Cabriolet with
ceramic heaters while it is still summer. How do I
set this up? I can get the stock heater core out so
that is easy. How do I wire up the heaters?
This is easy, I did it in a Rabbit Pickup I built. First, I recommend
2 heaters unless you live in a mild climate. You need a sheet metal
shop to make a small box without a top the size of the heater core.
You can cut out the bottom to locate the heaters. You just take the
little square element with its frame out of the ceramic heaters.
I then routed the wires (use high temp wire) out where the coolant
tubes used to go. A little block off plate with 2 holes and grommets
in the firewall let the wires into the engine compartment. I would
guess you already have a stout DC rated relay to turn on the Russco
element so that part is covered. You want to hook up your new heaters
to the pack voltage circuit that was for the Russco element. This
circuit needs to be able to handle 30 amps for 2 heaters. Power for
this relay coil needs to be redirected however. You do not want the
ceramic heaters on unless the fan is on. The way I did this was to tap
into the fan low speed wire to power the relay and let the heater
on-switch ground the relay. The heater dropping resistor is about 2
ohms so there is no problem pulling in the relay if the fan is on
high. If the fan is off now the heaters can't be on but if you turn
off the fan with the heater on you will notice the relay drops out
slow. Never seemed to be a problem in my experience but I didn't make
doing that a habit (but I forgot and did that plenty of times.)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>More tube questions, if you don't mind:
>
>What would you say would be the advantages/disadvantages of tubes over
>current transistor technology, with respect to motor control? I suppose I
>could
>list a few to start:
>
>1) Tubes are less efficient (and generate more heat)
>2) Tubes are bigger
>3) Victor says there is a potential for filaments to be unreliable in a
>vibration environment (although I know there are military spec tubes available
>which are supposed to mitigate this at least somewhat)
>4) Availability? (They probably don't make many anymore, if at all)
>
>Could you list more? For instance...
>
>1) Are tubes typically cheaper?
>
>
No, they are harder to make than a silicon device
>2) Do they typically handle more power?
>
>
Yes, but this gap is closing rapidly. You have to ask power per ____
which is usually something like weight .. silicon wins for sure then.
>3) Are they easier to work with, easier to design circuits with?
>
>
They are fairly easy to design with IMO, I have never designed anything
with them but they have transistor equivalents most of the time. There
are some configurations unique to tubes but there's a reason everyone
[95%] has switched to silicon.
>4) Are they "tougher" or harder to hurt?
>
>
They are easier to damage. Devices that would handle the power level in
an EV are delicate [or expensive enough to be considered delicate!]
Triggered mercury arc rectifiers need to be kept relatively level I
would imagine, seeing as though they have a pool of mercury in the bottom.
>5) Are they more maintainable? I can imagine opening up a controller,
>pulling a blown tube, and chunking in a new one quite easily. You can't do
>that
>with transistors I figure, at least as easily.
>
>
Transistors could be made to be switched quite easily, the thing is that
when they blow they usually take a bunch of other stuff with them. And
really, how often do transistors just fail unless you are abusing them?
Tubes fail over time just because they operate at high temps and may be
subject to high thermal cycle stresses etc.
>6) Etc.
>
>Another question. Under what basic model do tubes operate, anyway? I know
>the ultra-basic model for a transistor - it's a switch. Throw the switch =
>power on max. Unthrow the switch = power off. Throw it on and off real fast,
>at
>some ratio of on time to off time, and you get power somewhere between 0 and
>max. But tubes aren't like this. So what do they do to get a variable
>current (or voltage)? Note that I am not asking for some super-detailed,
>highly
>technical explanation about emitters, screens, grids, etc. That would make my
>eyes glaze over. I just want to know what the damn thing is, and what it
>does,
>i.e. "It's a switch, and you just turn it on and off real fast" or some such
>basic explanation.
>
>Thanks.
>Sam
>
>
>
Well, it's "basically" the same idea as a transistor if you aren't
interested in details. I know that some TV stations still use large
tubes for their transmitters which are usually many kW. Some "hi-fi" and
instrument amplifiers still use vacuum tubes [EL84, 6L6 come to mind for
the power section] but they are usually <100W. The link I posted a few
days ago talks about high-power mercury rectifier tubes, thyratrons and
the like. They have a voltage drop of about 30-40 IIRC. Which is a huge
waste if you're only running at 250v or less. They are/were used for
electric train rectifiers of all sorts running at 600v.
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
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This is for my drag bike. Got to watch the bad boy pretty closely. Crank up
the voltage until its at 30 amps. Keep cranking up the voltage to maintain 30
amps. Then back off the voltage once the voltage comes up.
Then disconnect the bad boy, plug in the 15V contant voltage. Mostly I just
balance the batteries for 1/2 hour or so, or until I'm ready to race again.
Back home I'll leave the 15V on for 12-24 hours.
BadFishRacing
-------------- Original message from Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
--------------
> BadFishRacing wrote:
>
> "I use a bad boy to bring my pack up. Then hook up the 15V Toshiba
> laptop power supplies. I've got 2 boxes with 4 PS to a box, with 3A
> ammeters. So I can plug all 8 batteries in and see who's pulling the
> least/most current. I'll shut down the ones that get full first.
> Also got a low range, 14.3V (1 diode) in case the batts are trying to
> pull more than the supply wants to deliver."
>
> Do you do that everyday? Is it all hooked up all the time and you
> just plug it in and go to bed and it's charged by morning? Or do you
> have to stay there with it?
>
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Here are some cars that if you see one grab it. Just for the collectable
value. Many of these would make great EV's. Two, three & four wheel
vehicles. All very small.
http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/reyonnah-blue.html
http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/inter.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What would you say would be the advantages/disadvantages of tubes
> over current transistor technology, with respect to motor control?
>
> 1) Tubes are less efficient (and generate more heat)
True
> 2) Tubes are bigger
True
> 3) a potential for filaments to be unreliable
True; however, the ones designed for vehicles didn't have this problem.
> 4) Availability? (They probably don't make many anymore, if at all)
Correct! The tubes that are still available are either old stock, or
highly specialized types for which there are still few modern
replacements.
> Could you list more? For instance...
>
> 1) Are tubes typically cheaper?
They were manufactured at a lower level of technology, but much more
labor intensive. You can almost make them yourself. There are lots of
hazardous materials and dangerous equipment involved. It's kind of like
smelting your own iron ore -- straightforward but messy.
> 2) Do they typically handle more power?
Tubes originally came in all sizes, but the low power ones were the
first to get replaced by transistors. Today, only the very largest tubes
are left (ones that switch megawatts).
> 3) Are they easier to work with, easier to design circuits with?
Yes, in some respects. Tube circuits generally use far fewer parts, but
the parts have much larger voltage and current ratings.
> 4) Are they "tougher" or harder to hurt?
Generally yes. Tubes can survive short-term overloads very well. If you
exceed their voltage rating, they arc over but are usually not
permanently damaged. If you exceed their current rating they get red
hot, but that only slightly shortens their life.
> 5) Are they more maintainable?
Tubes have a definite wear-out mechanism. Like a light bulb, they
typically work for a certain number of hours, then need replacement.
That's why they are almost always socketed.
> I can imagine opening up a controller, pulling a blown tube,
> and chunking in a new one quite easily.
Yes, for small-signal tubes. But the large high-power ones could easily
be very difficult to change.
We *could* make transistors each to change; but we don't. Fixing things
isn't fashionable any more.
> Another question. Under what basic model do tubes operate, anyway?
The traditional vacuum tube (glass bottle with a high vacuum inside) is
a low-current, high-voltage, linear device. The gate voltage controls
the cathode-to-plate resistance.
The power switching tubes used in motor and welding controllers are
high-pressure gas-filled devices, often in metal or ceramic packages.
They basically operate as a switch; strictly on or off. A pulse on the
grid ionizes the gas between cathode and anode, and you have basically
struck an arc between them which continues even with the grid voltage
removed. A reverse pulse momentarily shifts the arc in such a way as to
switch it off.
> I know the ultra-basic model for a transistor - it's a switch...
> But tubes aren't like this.
The gas-filled tubes are like this. They switch on/off, with no
in-between state. They behave very much like a solid-state SCR, except
that the on-state voltage is much higher.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> Is there ~$30,000 worth of components in this box?
>
> http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1371/lopen6au.jpg
>
> Is that the only way to build an inverter? Name one thing that is
> more complex then the inverter in that picture.
That looks about right. It's a Siemens, but doesn't look much different
than the GM EV1, or any other IGBT inverter built in the 1990's.
The parts don't cost $30,000, but the labor to design, test, and built
them in small quantities did!
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Sounds like a great set of EV "training wheels"!
Tom Shay wrote:
> You must raise the voltage. Going from 48 to 96 volts would
> approximately double the motor speed and horsepower.
I don't know if I'd say "must". At 48v with the Prestolite motor, you
are limited to its rated horsepower. That will give you NEV-like
performance; relatively weak hill-climbing and a lower top speed.
Raising the voltage allows the motor to spin faster. Its current rating
stays the same, so in effect you get more horsepower, meaning more speed
and faster hill-climbing. But it's also harder on the motor; it will
overheat quicker, and brushes wear a lot faster.
> You might be able to go even higher like 120 or 144 volts.
I don't think there is much point of going past a 96v pack with this
motor. If you do, you'd better only expect to be using it for drag
racing or other very short life purposes. At 120v, this motor would
either be thrown to pieces from excessive rpm, or burn itself up in
minutes from overheating.
> You do need better batteries.
I agree; these are poor batteries for the application. At such a low
system voltage, golf cart batteries are the obvious choice. They are
built for it.
12 8v golf cart batteries (wired as a 48v pack) will weigh slightly
more, provide considerably more range, and last at least twice as long.
For a little more speed, change it to a 72v with 12 6v golf cart
batteries. You'd have to change the charger and controller accordingly,
but would have considerably better hillclimbing and a higher top speed,
and still have the benefits of low battery cost and longer life.
> I'd consider a set of Optimas.
Optimas are a good choice if performance is much more important than
money. Personally, this is an old VW Beetle type of car; cheap, slow,
simple, reliable. It can be changed into a Porsche, but you'll be
changing the motor, controller, batteries, charger, and probably
everything else by the time you're done. Is it worth it? Save the fancy
stuff for your next conversion.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Can Contactors of different ratings be mixed?
With care. Fundamentally, they are just a switch. But you can have
problems if they are grossly mismatched, or there are big differences
between them.
For instance, you can't expect to put a 96v and a 24v contact in series
and expect them to switch 120v; there's no way to know how the voltage
will divide between them when they open. Or you can't parallel different
contacts and expect the current to divide equally between them.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I have a question to post to all of the battery experts.
I have an E-10 with AC drive so I don't need the crushing power capable from
YT or Orbitals, however, I don't really want to use floodeds either because
getting to the batteries on a regular basis in the E-10 is a pain to say the
least.
My Brusa controllers limit the amp draw so getting 1000 amps at once is
hardly possible, much less necessary. It is an E-10 after all and not a
914. :-) Just a commuter.
So, I've really been looking hard at Deka Dominators and SeaMates.
The Dominators are gel and the SeaMates are AGM.
In order to fit in my boxes, I have to use the group 24 batteries so from
the start I will have the same size.
24 batteries in 2 strings of 12 for 144 volts.
The Dominators have 73.6 AH and 140 min RC at 25 amps that gives a Peukert
of 1.12
The SeaMates have 79 ah and 140 min RC at 25 amps that gives a Peukert of
1.16
Cost wise, the SeaMates are $13 less per battery.
Given these parameters, which would be the better batter for my application?
Jeff Wilson
USA(ret)
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion Est.
2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
-- Harper's Index, April 2002
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Could this device be scaled up to drive one of our motors?
http://www.dccontrol.com/
24V, 60 amp cont, 100 amp 30 sec:
http://www.dccontrol.com/VCONTROL.PDF
2 different models: $80, and $115.
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I have a Kewet with a set of 16 SAFT 100Ah NiCds and I have someone interested
in buying everything, but, while I know the Kewet is only worth $1500-2000, I'm
not sure what the NiCds are worth on their own - I don't think they've had very
many cycles, so if any of the list were going to buy them, what would be a
typical asking price?
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Sounds like a Solectria conversion. They came originally with Deka
Dominator 8G24s. Solectria tried a LOT of batteries before they settled on
these. They made a good choice, and I recommend that unless you are going
to experiment with advanced batteries, you stick with them for replacements.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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