EV Digest 4547
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 1971 Electra King 2 Door Electric Car - $2500 and King Midget EV's
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Best use of 500 pounds of battery budget?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) The Trihawk (was Re: Racing 3wheels, ...)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: N-wheel vehicle stability
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Rubber mount motor and transmission
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: N-wheel vehicle stability
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DCP T-Rex and DC/DC in closed space?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Best use of 500 pounds of battery budget?
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Segway?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Modeling the Freedom EV,
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: The Trihawk (was Re: Racing 3wheels, ...) 1995 Porche 911
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Solar charging project
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Bi-directional charging
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) 3 Wheel tilting videos
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: What would you do with 19 million amps?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: The Trihawk (was Re: Racing 3wheels, ...) 1995 Porche 911
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Power requirement for "faster than an electric car" performance
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) DC/DC in closed space? - airflow
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: 4 wheel tilting
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) E-Meter Questions
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Deka dominato. Now: Are they as good as Optima or Exide? What would
the racers use?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James and All,
--- James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 11:00, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/car/88239269.html
> Seen on Craigs List.
>
>
> I like it. Does anyone know anything about these
I like it too! And it is probably worth $2500 if
in good shape, running and titled. How many enclosed
MC's are out there?
> beasties?
> Specifically, real-world speed/range numbers. I
As GC's get 60-100 mile range I'd exspect this to
get at least 30, maybe 60 miles depending on the batt
pack, speed it goes.
Looking at it you should at least get 30mph and
could be hopped up easily by upping the voltage to
45mph or so if the brakes could handle it and care was
taken to slow before turning.
I'd also keep it so you could return it to stock
as it's likely to become a collector's item and go up
in value.
For those who like little EV cars, a guy is making
noises about building King Midget's again in EV. He
already builds replacement parts for them.
There is a King Midget group on the web. Could
this unit be made by the the same old factory?
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
> think it would be great
> for running into town for a few groceries and
> general ampabout. (about
> 15 miles round trip).
>
> James
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
>
> I see. I just know this is being done, and thought an idea has
> perfect merit. One example (sorry, longish URL):
>
> http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7182-1-390021-1-0-0-348452-0-0-135-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-1,00.html
>
> Scroll down to multimedia (right bottom) Tokyo Motor Show
> and watch the movie in action how this is being done.
>
> Tilting outside (to the turn) wheels on which is almost
> all the weight during cornering, is done, but he tires shown
> aren't rounded as for motorcycles. Apparently it is not a
> requirement - I bet these Germans know very well what they are doing.
Hmm, interesting link, thanks.
However, notice that while these tires don't have a rounded cross section,
they ARE specially designed for this application, and the wheels don't
tilt as mush as many tilting three wheelers.
>
>> The reason you see leaning 3wh is because they often have a design
>> constraint that can lead to roll overs. For example: limited width, or
>> high center of gravity.
>
> Yes, F-300 is a good example of this.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
500-600 pounds is your limit.
Which Lead/acid batteries would you choose to give you the most bang for
the buck?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An idea: Instead of tilting, put the battery pack on sliders, and
move it to the inside of the turn.
You can design a 4 wheel car to lean into the turns. I'd read it
gives the driver less feedback as to what the car is doing, so the
car is harder to keep at the limits. The extra weight would slow
acceleration a bit, too.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Peter, in light of this discussion,
>
> I'm far from being a racing head, so may be you can tell
> why tilting during cornering (changing caster angle) isn't
> used for 4 wheel race cars. Jsut because of complexity?
>
> This appears to offer far supperior cornering support.
____________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
>> Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Road and Track test drivers, drove
>> and
>> reviewed the Trihawk. Not a theoretical discussion, several road
>> tests with
>> stop watches, 4th wheels, and other instruments..
>> Read the results here:
>> http://designmassif.com/trihawk/articles/index.htm
>> Why argue facts and data? One article reported an understeered
>> skid pad
>> figure of .83 exceeded only by a Ferrari Boxer, a Lamborghini
>> Countach, BMW M1, and Porche 930 Turbo.
>
I should have read these articles earlier.
Several folks where using the Trihawk as proof that three wheelers handle
better than four. Actually they prove MY point. Go read the articles
folks, good stuff.
"The reason for its stability is it's mammoth width. With a front track
of 66 in., the Trihawk won't span the Golden Gate, but it's several inches
wider than any American-built car."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I emailed Nawaz Qureshi at US Batteries about desulfating. Here is his response
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nawaz Qureshi"
To: "Rush"
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Desulfating batteries
> Hello Rush:
>
> Thanks for contacting me. Here is my take on it, FWIW.
>
> I have been in the lead acid battery science and technology since 1967.
> I still fail to understand why people keep talking about sulfation and
> as a result desulfation of batteries. I inform everyone that sulfation
> is a pathological condition that exists only on long shelf stand (6
> months or more) batteries or operating undercharged batteries and that
> it does not exist in normal operating batteries. Forming lead sulfate
> is a normal discharge process without which the battery cannot ever work.
> So desulfation is a solution to a problem that is very rare indeed.
> People start believing in it because if you give a strong charge to a
> dead battery from a junk pile or otherwise, with or without adding
> anything to it, chances are good that it will recover some capacity (10
> to 75%) , albiet for a very few cycles, before it dies. This fools our
> garage inventors into believing in their inventions. It is unfortunate.
>
> Only pulsing during charge techniques helps the healing process when
> this rare problem is encountered as mentioned above.
>
> Most additives will do more harm than good as they get oxidized into
> harmful compounds. Compounds that dissolve lead, destroying the active
> material.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Nawaz Qureshi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apples and oranges.
None of those luxury sports cars are known for handling as evidenced
by their <1g skidpad numbers. After all, they're primarily penis
substitutes and for that, cornering at all isn't really necessary....
If you want an apples to apples comparison, compare the Trihawk to,
say, a Lotus 7. Say, the Caterham 7:
http://www.caterham.co.uk/
Similar architecture to the Trihawk except that it has 4 wheels, of
course. Even with a street suspension setup, we routinely see >1g
cornering forces on the track. Without bothering to look it up, I
believe that one of the car mags recorded about 1.25g on the skidpad
and that was without any special setup. On a practical note, this car
is a ball to drive, street or track.
Some folks will go to almost any lengths to be "different". Being of
that nature, I somewhat sympathize. But let's face it, most folks
aren't interested in odd-ball cars. Trikes are definitely odd-ball.
On a practical basis, high length/width ratio trikes have essentially
zero axial stiffness. This leads to an annoying rotation around the
center axis on bumps. This can give many people, myself included,
seasickness. Even if you don't get seasick, the ride isn't much fun.
The only advantage I can see for a trike is that it can be registered
as a motorcycle in most states.
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 17:29:28 -0400, "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Theoretical and reality.
>
>Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Road and Track test drivers, drove and
>reviewed the Trihawk. Not a theoretical discussion, several road tests with
>stop watches, 4th wheels, and other instruments..
>
>Read the results here: http://designmassif.com/trihawk/articles/index.htm
>
>Why argue facts and data? One article reported an understeered skid pad
>figure of .83 exceeded only by a Ferrari Boxer, a Lamborghini Countach, BMW
>M1, and Porche 930 Turbo.
>
>The very fact that any 3 wheeler would be compared to those 4 super handling
>cars, to me, makes the handling issue a mute point. Would any of us
>complain if our car handled on that level?
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking as Sparrow owner for 5 years, I say keep the
rubber mount. In fact, I am tempted to add rubber
mounts to my Sparrow.
Yes, electric motors do not produce any significant
vibration, but they are not perfect. Put any electric
motor on the bench and power it up, you will hear and
feel the hum on the bench. And, worse, since the
controller is PWM, the motor tends to "sing" at
different harmonic frequencies.
Every Sparrow I have driven produces these harmonic
frequencies at different speeds. It is kind of cool
because it sounds pretty futuristic. But, don't try
to talk on the cell phone.
Ed Ang
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since electric motors do not produce any vibration,
> is it really required to
> rubber mount a motor and transmission?
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can't compare modern results to vehicles of 20 years ago. Tires
have come a long ways. You'd have to put some modern tires on the
trihawk, and then compare it to the 7.
Put modern race tires on virtually any car, and it'll exceed 1.0
lateral g. Put a good modern street tire on alot of sports cars and
they can still exceed 1.0 lateral g.
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Apples and oranges.
>
> None of those luxury sports cars are known for handling as
> evidenced
> by their <1g skidpad numbers. After all, they're primarily penis
> substitutes and for that, cornering at all isn't really
> necessary....
>
> If you want an apples to apples comparison, compare the Trihawk to,
> say, a Lotus 7. Say, the Caterham 7:
>
> http://www.caterham.co.uk/
>
> Similar architecture to the Trihawk except that it has 4 wheels, of
> course. Even with a street suspension setup, we routinely see >1g
> cornering forces on the track. Without bothering to look it up, I
> believe that one of the car mags recorded about 1.25g on the
> skidpad
> and that was without any special setup. On a practical note, this
> car
> is a ball to drive, street or track.
> ...
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 17:29:28 -0400, "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Theoretical and reality.
> >
> >Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Road and Track test drivers, drove
> and
> >reviewed the Trihawk. Not a theoretical discussion, several road
> tests with
> >stop watches, 4th wheels, and other instruments..
> >
> >Read the results here:
> http://designmassif.com/trihawk/articles/index.htm
> >
> >Why argue facts and data? One article reported an understeered
> skid pad
> >figure of .83 exceeded only by a Ferrari Boxer, a Lamborghini
> Countach, BMW
> >M1, and Porche 930 Turbo.
> >
> >The very fact that any 3 wheeler would be compared to those 4
> super handling
> >cars, to me, makes the handling issue a mute point. Would any of
> us
> >complain if our car handled on that level?
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--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
> 400CFM from a 120mm fan? I'm a bit skeptical...
The advertised CFM ratings for fans are mostly marketing hype. They are
just telling you the airflow under totally nonrestricted conditions;
like hanging from a string in free air.
As soon as you place the fan in any kind of box or add any kind of
screen or other restriction, the airflow drops. With propeller type
fans, it drops substantially.
If you're trying to ventilate your car, where there is always
significant wind pressure from outside and significantly restricted air
vent openings, you need to use a squirrel-cage type of fan.
To see if the fan is big enough, measure the temperature difference
between the intake air and exhaust air. The temperature rise should be
under 40 deg.F if you are moving enough air. For example, 70 deg.F air
going in, and 110 deg.F at the exhaust.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I'm far from being a racing head, so may be you can tell
> why tilting during cornering (changing caster angle) isn't
> used for 4 wheel race cars. Jsut because of complexity?
It *is* used. Turn the front wheels of your car all the way in one
direction and look; they lean the top of the wheel toward the inside of
the turn.
They don't lean the entire car like they would a motorcycle because that
would be a lot more complicated. Also, cars don't have enough ground
clearance to tilt the whole body more than a very few degrees.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to the EV list, Chuch! Yes, you do seem to have picked the time
to join us when the motorcycle fans are active.
Chuck Hays wrote:
> We're located in the Southern Interior of BC, 40 km
> from the core of Kamloops and work. This is not a flat
> 40 km, but contains hills... Our road is winding and narrow,
> infested with log trucks and deer -- so whatever I have has
> to go fast enough to avoid being run over and slow enough
> to stop for Bambi.
A tough order, but not hopeless. It will be hard to satisfy all your
needs with one vehicle. If you did, you'd have to make some big
compromises in other areas to make it work out.
> 1. A motorcycle that can go into town and back home
> on one charge. Tall order. 70 km/h, for at least 100 km.
The only way to get long range is with lots of batteries. Specifically,
with a large percentage of the total vehicle weight in batteries. To do
this on a motorcycle leads to either a very heavy custom-built bike; or
an ultra-efficient bicycle-like vehicle with high-tech batteries. You'd
need something like Cedric Lynch's feet-forward motorcycle.
> 2. A motorcycle that can go into town and recharge for
> the homeward leg within six hours. 70 km/h for 50 km.
That's not too bad. 6 hours is plenty long enough to recharge any
battery with the right charger. But, even 50km at 70km/h takes a lot of
batteries in an efficient vehicle. Normal motorcycles ain't built that
way!
> 3. A motorcycle that stays pretty close to home. Our
> nearest store is 25 km away
Now you're getting into the range of something that can be built by
converting an existing motorcycle.
> 4. Let's get off the pavement. Something that has the power and
> traction to get say up to 30 km round trip
If your speed is low, and you have good high-flotation tires, then an EV
can do it. Something like a ElekTrak garden tractor, or converted
3-wheeler or 4-wheeler. Again, you biggest challenge is getting it to
carry the battery weight.
> 5. An EV truck
This is probably the easiest to build. When you start with a larger
vehicle, your weight (and whatever cargo you want to carry) is a smaller
percentage of the total. Trucks are also built to carry weight. So a
small truck with a load of batteries can do quite well. For example
convert one of the mini-pickups from the 1970's.
> 6. All else failing, if my life just wouldn't be complete
> without an EV of some kind, I'd convert a small
> tractor to electric and use it to plow snow.
So another possibility is to convert an old jeep, or perhaps a dune
buggy. The jeep can plow snow; the dune buggy is mainly summer fun, but
could push a snow blower in the winter. Both of these vehicles can be
light enough and strong enough for a good-sized battery pack.
Finally, you may want to think about a hybrid. If not a Toyota or Honda,
build your own low-tech hybrid as a short-range EV but with a
range-extending generator.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
500-600 pounds is your limit.
Which Lead/acid batteries would you choose to give you the most bang for
the buck?
That's kind of like saying " what's the best car for the money?" It depends
if you're racing or taking the kids to soccer practice.
You have a chance of getting a meaningful answer for your question if you
better define "bang".
For example, are you looking for:
1. The most instantaneous power?
2. The most power you can draw for a minute?
3. The most power that won't damage the batteries if drawn regularly?
4. The most range under light power draw?
5. The most range under heavy power draw?
6. The most lifetime range ( this would be the cheapest lifetime cost)?
And, so on.
Phil
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--- Begin Message ---
They're not terribly practical in the real world. A friend of mine
has one. We've done fairly extensive comparisons both to my Currie
dual motor phat flyer and my Gobig scooter. In just about every
circumstance, the conventional 2 wheel scooter is more practical.
Two Segways cannot pass on our sidewalks because the Segway is so wide
and the steering so imprecise. That pretty much rules out its use on
any significant scale.
It is slow (10mph max on his) and to me, quite tiring to ride compared
to a conventional scooter. It is intuitive to make small course
changes with body english and change speeds manually. The Segway is
exactly the opposite. One has to think explicitly both to change
speed and to steer. I have a number of hours on one and I still
haven't gotten used to it.
Even moving around in tight crowds is easier on a conventional
scooter. Even though the Segway can theoretically turn in its own
footprint, in practice that doesn't gain one much. We've ridden side
by side in downtown block party crowds and it was evident he was
working a LOT harder than I was.
Then, of course, there is the matter of getting home when the battery
runs down. If all else fails, I can push my conventional scooter
home. A segway is a dead weight when the battery calls it quits.
For the type of commute you described, < 8 or 10 miles round trip,
it's hard to beat the good old Currie. I noticed PeP boys selling the
700 watt version of the Schwinn/Currie for just a tad over $300 last
weekend. Hard to beat that price/performance ratio.
John
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:17:06 -0700 (PDT), [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>I think they would be good transportation for short trips. At Earth Day
>this year there were a couple being demonstrated and I got to try one.
>They are very easy to manoeuver but I found it a bit difficult to get used
>to stopping without squeezing the handles, as I am accustomed to doing on
>my bike. You have to lean back to stop. I lost control at one point and
>ran into a flower bed but did not tip over. This probably would not have
>happened had I not been wearing my ice skates and a cumbersome bird
>costume I had on for the Earth day show we were doing on some plastic ice.
>If I had not been within months of retiring I would have considered buying
>one for my 2.73 mile commute to work. In Nevada they are recognized as
>equal to pedestrians so can be ridden on the sidewalk. I need to find out
>if that rule applies to taking them on the bus. That might be difficult
>to do since they would be too heavy to lift and I don't think they can
>climb steps.
>
>Gail
>
>On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Met a guy last night that is supposedly the largest Segway dealer in the US
>> (met him in Thailand of all places).
>>
>> Anybody know anything about these things? What's your opinion?
>>
>> S.
>>
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and All,
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry a few more things needed:
>
> 1) is the weight distribution of 66-34 front/rear?
Yes
>
> 2) do you have an *actual* motor torque curve?
> Without it I cannot do
> much. I do not know how to figure out a torque
> curve based on motor type
> and voltage.
Use the A89 by ADC curves which should be on the
web. Anyone know where?
>
> 3) is this a fixed gear 4.3:1?
Yes
>
> 4) what is the width of the tires?
6" tread
>
> 5) I will program in the CG
Cool, it's 12" off the ground
>
> 6) what is the ground clearance?
4" to 10" variable. For racing 4", fording
streams, 10" ;-)), regular about 6-7"
>
> 7) is there a clutch?
No
>
> There is no software, that I know of, that will
> model a 3 wheel aero trike,
> so I will have to make it either a car or
> motorcycle. Since it does not
> lean like a motorcycle, the suspension will be more
> like a car.
I'll be interested in the results,
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of jerry dycus
> Sent: August 1, 2005 8:24 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Modeling the Freedom EV,
>
>
> Hi Don and All,
>
> --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Jerry, I am interested to model the performance of
> the Freedom EV, if
> > can you supply me with the specs, I will run it
> against a variety of
> > cars and report back on its relative performance.
>
> Don't you need more info than the below? What
> type of performance sim
> are you going to do?
> What about CG- 12" high as most cars are 16-24"
> high, Tire type, brand, ect make hugh differences?
> Can it do 3wh vs 4?
> Tire RR .008 for econo,range, stock - .012 for
> race
> Would really like power required at various
> speeds with the low drag
> tires.
> While I can see you doing power required well,
> handling isn't going to
> be easy, accurate without much more data.
> >
> > - weight
>
> Reg 1400lbs Race 1000lbs
> 12 T105s 6 Orbitals or more with bigger
> controller
> > - weight distribution
>
> 66-34
>
>
> > - is front or rear wheel drive?
>
> Rear
>
>
> > - motor torque curve
>
> D+D, the former ADC owners, 2- ES22's
> series/parallel equal to 2- 6.7
> A89 type type wound for 72vdc, 5,000rpm at 125 amps
> Altrax 7245 controller Race, bypass
> contactor
>
> > - gear ratios and final gear ratio
>
> 4.3-1
>
> > - Cd
>
> .23
>
> > - height and width
>
> 4'x 4.5" average max width, upper 4' wide and
> lower 5' wide max so 18sq'
> frontal area.
>
> > - tire size
>
> 23" dia, 14" rims
>
> >
> >
> > Don
> >
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> Is that really such an issue?
What is the "that" that you are referring to?
> Like the worn out SLA here, I can try to charge it and it's not
> going to get additional capacity.
If a battery has been sitting a long time, its capacity will always
improve when you start cycling it properly. "Properly" just means not
discharging it too fast or too deeply, and charging it with a reasonably
good charger that shuts off when it is full.
If the capacity doesn't improve during these first few cycles, then the
battery is not sulfated, and there's something else wrong with it. For
instance, it could have a bad cell, or be out of water, or your charger
isn't fully charging it, or your load is too high a current, or the
battery is too hot or cold -- or it is just plain worn out from too many
charge/discharge cycles.
> As far as I know there is no known good procedure for reviving it.
Well, there are effective proceedures to revive abused batteries if they
aren't actually bad. We've published them many times on the EV list, and
there are lots of books and internet articles on them.
That's what I've described in my previous emails.
- If the battery was totally dead (under 12v no load on a 12v battery),
charge it for a very long time at very low current; like 24v thru a
car tail light for a few days or until the voltage stops falling.
Then charge normally.
- If the battery has normal voltage and normal voltage sag under
load, but low amphour capacity, give in an equalizing charge;
charge it at about 2% to 4% of its rated amphour capacity until
the voltage stops rising. It should reach about 15v at 2-4 amps
on a 12v 100amphour battery.
- If the battery has normal voltage and normal amphours at low
currents, but low amphours at high current (excessive internal
resistance), it is probably low on water or has suffered from
grid corrosion for chronic overcharging. You can add water (even
to a sealed battery, by prying out the vent caps or drilling
holes). For a flooded battery, also check the specific gravity.
If it is low even when fully charged, add a bit more acid (it's
either been lost from fizzing and spills, or tied up in the sludge
in the bottom).
> I could try those first and see if they change anything. So any
> observation of additional capacity following the pulser use should
> be a positive result, provided the capacity persists over time.
Correct.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Exterior
Length: 168 in. Width: 68.3 in.
Height: 51 in. Wheel Base: 89.4 in.
Ground Clearance: 4.7 in. Curb Weight: 3064 lbs.
Interior
Maximum Seating: 4
So....? The Trihawk is 66".
BoyntonStu
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Trihawk (was Re: Racing 3wheels, ...)
>> Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Road and Track test drivers, drove
>> and
>> reviewed the Trihawk. Not a theoretical discussion, several road
>> tests with
>> stop watches, 4th wheels, and other instruments..
>> Read the results here:
>> http://designmassif.com/trihawk/articles/index.htm
>> Why argue facts and data? One article reported an understeered
>> skid pad
>> figure of .83 exceeded only by a Ferrari Boxer, a Lamborghini
>> Countach, BMW M1, and Porche 930 Turbo.
>
I should have read these articles earlier.
Several folks where using the Trihawk as proof that three wheelers handle
better than four. Actually they prove MY point. Go read the articles
folks, good stuff.
"The reason for its stability is it's mammoth width. With a front track
of 66 in., the Trihawk won't span the Golden Gate, but it's several inches
wider than any American-built car."
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It's me again.
Several months ago I mentioned that I wanted to build an off grid
charging station for my elec-trak. Well my fleet of electrics has
seriously grown (don't they just) and now this is more of a necessity
than a "would be nice".
The early version will be grid powered as I'm not ready for off grid,
but in the interim, take a look at:
http://time.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/Plan/
Any input would be appreciated as to wiring, design, safety componets,
you name it.
Thanks in advance.
James
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
Does anyone know of a bi-directional charger (other than AC Propulsion)
that one can use to supply power from your EV to the house in the event
of a power outage? We also have Solar power to use in charging the EV.
AC Propulsion's AC-150 Gen 2 is a little expensive for my budget.
Thanks,
Noel
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If you would like to see what tilting 3 wheelers can do, I suggest that you
see the videos in the links below.
http://www.troisroues.com/troisroues.com.m1v
This one is of a radio controlled model, 1F1T.
Quite amazing!
http://www.troisroues.com/videosttw.html
BoyntonStu
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
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> >From Slashdot
> http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/01/1040217&tid=14
> On July 27, scientists at the National Nuclear Security
> Administration's Nevada Test Site said they generated a current equal to
> about four times all the electrical current on Earth. During the few
> millionths of a second that it operated, the 650-ton Atlas pulsed-power
> generator discharged about 19 million amps of current through an
> aluminum cylindrical shell about the size of a tuna can. Official news
> release is available from the DOE
Some comments that are below the article:
"Um....unless things have changed in the 25+ years since I took a
college physics class, we measure POWER in WATTS, and CURRENT in AMPS.
So the number you quoted in AMPS that you claims is equal to four
times the POWER in amps doesn't make any sense. Of course, that never
stopped our /. Editors before!"
"My home electric stove+oven has 2x 50A circuit breakers; my electric
water heater, 2x 40A; my electric clothes dryer, 2x 30A (all 230V
service in US). There are at least 15 million houses in the US with
similar electrical service. Some industrial plating baths use 6000
Amperes at less than 3V. So 19 million amps is a serious underestimate
of the current being used in the world."
"Seriously, people. Is there anyone on the /. editorial staff who can
do basic math?
There are easily 19 million electrical service drops in the U.S.
alone, counting homes and businesses and such, and I'll bet each and
every single one of them uses more than one ampere ALL THE TIME.
Who lets this crap through, anyway?"
"From later in TFA: "During the few millionths of a second that it
operates, Atlas generates electrical energy roughly four times the
Earth's entire energy production."
This is almost technically right except for "Atlas generates"... Atlas
is only a huge capacitor bank, it does not magically "generate"
energy, it only stores existing energy.
Now, if worldwide production is something like 25GW and the pulse
lasts 10us, we have 25GW * 4 * 10us = 1MJ, a believable finite
quantity."
And yes, I have it set to only show (Score:4 or 5, and Informative or
Insightful)
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I'm far from being a racing head, so may be you can tell
why tilting during cornering (changing caster angle) isn't
used for 4 wheel race cars. Jsut because of complexity?
No, because it would be slow (and it would be camber, not caster).
A racing motorcycle is usually slower through a corner than a racing car of
similar power to weight. They just rely on their huge acceleration. In fact
a 125 race bike often has a higher corner apex speed than a full blown GP or
Superbike. The tyre contact patch of a banking machine is much smaller than
that of a conventional car and so there is much less grip. The advantage of
a banking machine has to do with stability of a narrow track. The track of a
motorcycle is so narrow it couldn't corner at all if it didn't bank.
The Tango has a narrow track, but it's very low centre of gravity means that
it will slide long before it will roll. However, if you were to clip a curb
with an inside wheel whilst cornering hard, you would be very likely to
roll. Before anyone refutes this, I've seen it done with a Formula Ford
Zetec, which probably has a better ratio of track to CofG height than the
Tango.
Free tilting suspension isn't particularly complicated, but the transition
from free mode to locked (for speeds below self balancing) is hard to
automate smoothly and/or cheaply.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
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Stu or Jan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Exterior
> Length: 168 in. Width: 68.3 in.
> Height: 51 in. Wheel Base: 89.4 in.
> Ground Clearance: 4.7 in. Curb Weight: 3064 lbs.
>
> So....? The Trihawk is 66".
"Width" is not the relevant specification; "track" is.
From
<http://www.internetautoguide.com/car-specifications/09-int/1995/porsche
/911/>:
- External dimensions: overall length (mm): 4,260, overall width (mm):
1,735, overall height (mm): 1,316, wheelbase (mm): 2,271, front track
(mm): 1,405, rear track (mm): 1,445 and curb to curb turning circle
(mm): 11,735
1405mm = 55.3" front track
1445mm = 56.9" rear track
So, the Trihawk has about a 10" advantage over the 1995 Porsche 911 in
terms of track. That is certainly not insignificant.
Cheers,
Roger.
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300 amps.. 600 amps... What you want is 2000 amps! Or at least the
full 1000 amps from your Z1K.
Those Deka gel batteries are expensive compared to their AGM model:
(Notice the "For AC systems only" warning..)
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml
Ouch! Price increase.... Used to be ~$88 each... Now they are $100 each.. :(
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopexd.asp?id=5448&catid=342&cat=Deka+INTIMIDATOR&subcat=474&L2=&L3=
What's up with that? China using all the lead too?
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There are 2 types of popular styles of fans
to move air.
A blower is typically used in applications that
have high pressure, like a traction motor that
has limited vents and a brush access cover with
an inlet tube.
CFM doesn't mean anything unless you consider
the back pressure.
Check out these curves for a better visialization;
http://www.ametektmd.com/pdf/lvb28-29.pdf
Axial fans are commonly used for lower back pressure,
like blowing air across fins of a heatsink.
Check out this curve for a better idea;
http://www.ametektmd.com/pdf/Fans50-51.pdf
Rod
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ben Apollonio wrote:
> > 400CFM from a 120mm fan? I'm a bit skeptical...
>
> The advertised CFM ratings for fans are mostly
> marketing hype. They are
> just telling you the airflow under totally
> nonrestricted conditions;
> like hanging from a string in free air.
>
> As soon as you place the fan in any kind of box or
> add any kind of
> screen or other restriction, the airflow drops. With
> propeller type
> fans, it drops substantially.
>
> If you're trying to ventilate your car, where there
> is always
> significant wind pressure from outside and
> significantly restricted air
> vent openings, you need to use a squirrel-cage type
> of fan.
>
> To see if the fan is big enough, measure the
> temperature difference
> between the intake air and exhaust air. The
> temperature rise should be
> under 40 deg.F if you are moving enough air. For
> example, 70 deg.F air
> going in, and 110 deg.F at the exhaust.
> --
> *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I didn't mean leaning entire car. I meant use negative camber
on outside wheels, the body is still straight.
Again, please look at this link:
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7182-1-390021-1-0-0-348452-0-0-135-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-1,00.html
Scroll down to multimedia (right bottom of the page)
"Tokyo Motor Show" and watch the movie in action how this is being done.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
Well, I _finally_ got an E-meter :-) Two quick questions:
1) Does the E-meter's shunt have to be inserted in the wiring to the
negative side of the battery pack or can I insert it on the positive
side of the battery pack?
2) As a very temporary solution, would it be okay to power the E-meter
by tapping off 24 volts from a section of the traction battery pack? I
know this could cause EQ problems in the series string, but my main
concern is whether doing this will hurt the E-meter or not?
I can't wait to get this E-meter going so I can get some real solid data
regarding my Jeep's energy usage and such...
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Isn't there anything out there that is tough as an Optima or Exide at about
> 60 pounds?
What exactly are you looking for? Flooded, AGM, Gel... Trojan or US
Battery for flooded. What's the amp limit on those? Deka, Exide,
Optima for sub $100, $100, and over $100 pricing, and those Deka gels
with an amp limit on those too.
Either go high voltage with the Deka AGMs, or buy the really large
heavy Optimas..
AGM for amps.. (Plus no watering or corrosion!)
Here is a car with pics of the Deka Intimidators:
http://www.coate.org/tom/escort/escort.html
Also back on Apr 9, 2005, Tom Coate said on this list:
"As an aside, I was just contacted the other day by the editor of the
East Penn employee newsletter who is going to do a story about my use
of the Intimidators. It'll be interesting to see what they have to
say about this application of their product."
Optima does have some 60 lb'ers if that's what you want..
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplaysubcat.asp?id=171&cat=Optima+Batteries
That page says 70 lbs.. This page says 60 lbs:
http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/product_info/commercial/technical_specs.html
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