EV Digest 4548
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Segway
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Racing 3wheels, Re: 3 wheel EV's trike pick up, and CUSHMAN Tr...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Best use of 500 pounds of battery budget?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Solar charging project
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) PWM Controller for motor and charging?
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: E-Meter Questions
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PWM Controller for motor and charging?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) blowing fuses: HV lines next to LV
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: E-Meter Questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Cost of using wide tires
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: blowing fuses: HV lines next to LV
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Buy Solectria or convert???
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: blowing fuses: LV lines next to controller case and PCB
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Buy Solectria or convert???
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: E-Meter Questions
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Racing 3wheels,Comments ideas
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: E-Meter Questions
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Solectria S-10 conversion on ebay
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: E-Meter Questions
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Deka dominato. Now: Are they as good as Optima or Exide? What would
the racers use?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Real eff hybrids, Re: CalCars plug in hybrids
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) OEVA EV awareness day is August 20, Pioneer Square, Portland
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Buy Solectria or convert???
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Is that really such an issue?
What is the "that" that you are referring to?
It referred to not having multiple batteries in similar conditions
available to "double blind" it. Since I have a worn-out battery that
can be demonstrated as unimprovable, I don't see the need.
Like the worn out SLA here, I can try to charge it and it's not
going to get additional capacity.
If a battery has been sitting a long time, its capacity will always
improve when you start cycling it properly. "Properly" just means not
discharging it too fast or too deeply, and charging it with a reasonably
good charger that shuts off when it is full.
This SLA hasn't been sitting really, it's just been through like 100 or
more deep discharges and is more than 5 yrs old. Worn out.
So my plan here is:
Note battery temp.
Put it on my power supply until it floats to 14.8v and is down to a few
mA of draw. It's an adjustable voltage with current limit.
Discharge it through maybe a 5 amp load until it gets down to 10.5v.
That will probably need to be a headlight, which is sadly not a constant
current device but should be a fair test as long as we always use it as
the load. Note time.
Recharge on power supply again.
Put it on my pinging circuit for a day or two. Recharge on power supply.
Repeat discharge test, same procedure.
Recharge, come back in a couple of weeks (maybe put it back into
service?). Put back on charger, repeat discharge test.
Sound credible? Anything else you'd want to see?
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SBaker wrote:
> No, I don't remember any hype for it. Ever. Period.
Some articles from 2001:
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1001263,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660,00.html
http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=4528
http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1042
Lots of links:
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/11604/
This sums it up well:
Tuesday, January 16, 2001
"The IT hype seems to have been overdone a bit (you think?) "
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/11713/
It was originally called and referred to as "IT" and later called
"Ginger" so maybe that's why you don't recall hearing the name Segway
back then?
It was hyped at the time to be the "next best thing" and was going to
"change the world"..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
3-wheelers have significant stability issues. Basically the wheel base
width- a fundamental component of its resistance to rollover- is now
twice the distance from the CG to the imaginary line between a front
wheel and the rear, moving laterally. If your CG is between the 2
wheels, it's not so bad, if it's nearer the rear wheel, it is very bad.
Now actual stability is somewhat more complicated and tilting wheels,
stabilizing aerodynamics, etc can certainly compensate and I couldn't
rule out making an acceptable or superior vehicle out of it in the end.
But the 3 wheels DO create rollover risks.
On the legality side, something came to mind:
http://motorcyclecity.com/Concept/Dodge_Tomahawk.htm
Tomahawk motorcycle couldn't be registered as a motorcycle because of
its dual front and rear wheels technically make it a car. So I'm
thinking the same effect could be used to your advantage, adding a dual
rear wheel could get it 4-wheel status while preserving the design.
Danny
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Another is widely differing state laws on three wheelers. The federal
covernement considers threewheeled vehicles to be motorcycles, not cars.
While the laws that apply to cars are fairly standard from state to state,
they can differ widely on motorcycles and especially threewheeled
motorcycles. In most states you need a motorcycle license. Many states
have restrictions on how threewheelers can be built, I.e. must have two
rear wheels, or must have a saddle that the rider straddles. Finally some
states won't even allow you to register threewheelers for driving on the
road.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 2, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Stu or Jan wrote:
500-600 pounds is your limit.
Which Lead/acid batteries would you choose to give you the most bang
for
the buck?
Optimas or Exide Orbitals, 12 to 15 of them in a series string. The
range with so little battery weight isn't going to be great (unless you
can afford Lithium batteries.) Quality AGMs will make the most of it
because they have more of their capacity available at the 1 hour rate.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This SLA hasn't been sitting really, it's just been through like 100 or
more deep discharges and is more than 5 yrs old. Worn out.
So my plan here is:
Note battery temp.
Put it on my power supply until it floats to 14.8v and is down to a few mA
of draw. It's an adjustable voltage with current limit.
Discharge it through maybe a 5 amp load until it gets down to 10.5v. That
will probably need to be a headlight, which is sadly not a constant current
device but should be a fair test as long as we always use it as the load.
Note time.
Recharge on power supply again.
Put it on my pinging circuit for a day or two. Recharge on power supply.
Repeat discharge test, same procedure.
Recharge, come back in a couple of weeks (maybe put it back into service?).
Put back on charger, repeat discharge test.
Sound credible? Anything else you'd want to see?
Danny
If the battery gets " better", it won't prove a thing, since recharging
alone might have had the same results. That's why Lee recommended using
several batteries, so you could have a control group - that's the only way
it would be a valid test.
There is no test you can do on a single battery that will demonstrate
anything about the effectiveness of a desulfator. Using a single battery is
like testing a anti-cold drug on a single individual. It will certainly
work, since all colds will improve with time - with or without the drug. In
this case, all batteries will improve with charging.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a good reason why you want it to be off grid?
If not, you're better off making it a grid connected system to take advantage
of :
1) Rebates to pay for you renewable system. Your going to need more power than
you show.
2) 120 or 240v ac voltage that all your chargers can plug into and not affect
battery soc.
----- Original Message -----
From: James Jarrett<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: Solar charging project
It's me again.
Several months ago I mentioned that I wanted to build an off grid
charging station for my elec-trak. Well my fleet of electrics has
seriously grown (don't they just) and now this is more of a necessity
than a "would be nice".
The early version will be grid powered as I'm not ready for off grid,
but in the interim, take a look at:
http://time.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/Plan/<http://time.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/Plan/>
Any input would be appreciated as to wiring, design, safety componets,
you name it.
Thanks in advance.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-08-02, Chuck Hays wrote:
>
> New to the list, and it seems like the time when all
> the bikers are checkin' in. So count me in the mix,
> too. This morning, as I was out in the shop putting
> a new back-half wiring harness on the old Harley
> bobber, I was turning over the EV motorcycle idea
> in my head.
G'day Chuck! I'm new here myself ... hope you don't
mind being seen with a BMW rider :-).
> 2. A motorcycle that can go into town and recharge for
> the homeward leg within six hours. 70 km/h for 50 km.
Pretty similar to my requirements ... I'm in the suburbs,
but it's pretty hilly out here and the traffic won't
slow down for anyone without blue lights and a gun!
> So -- I can build a motorcycle. Outside of thinking
> that an Etek would be a good motor for it, I really
> don't have a clue as to controllers, batteries, and
> an onboard charger. I also don't have a feeling for
> whether Thompson Rivers University can be talked
> into providing a charging opportunity, but that seems
> like a socially responsible thing to do.
So far the Etek motor looks good for me too ... I'm
thinking a small (250ish) full-faired bike, with
a somewhat sporty riding position but reasonably
narrow tyres ... a (Ninja 250 / EX250 / GPX250) or
a Suzuki GSXF250 Across or similar, for example.
Assuming I can fit enough batteries into it, anyway.
Full-faired because I think the batteries are kind
of ugly, and for streamlining.
Anyway, good luck and let us know how it goes!
-----sharks
--
"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright red, hunchback,
warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them -- but I want one anyway, and on
some days I actually believe I need one. That is why they are dangerous."
-- Hunter S Thompson, "Song of the Sausage Creature"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day again all,
Just a quick question this time: are the controllers for
driving permanent-magnet motors (like the Etek) just MOSFET PWM
controllers? What kind of switching frequency do they use?
Also, when recharging batteries at constant current,
is it okay to PWM or do they need more looking after than that?
I'm wondering if the same MOSFET could be asked to do
both jobs ...
-----sharks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Compromise and give up one of the two (or both a little)
Well, I *was* blue-skying a little. Getting
in one way and then recharging would be ideal.
It's 40 km, for which I allowed 25% extra to
deal with some hills. Mainly it's down from
here, with a sudden 200m gain in altitude at
the very last. Coming back it's a sudden 200m
loss then gradually up from there, ending up
after 40 km at a little bit higher overall.
Total up and down is more than that, but the
rest of it cancels out.
Our road is posted at 80 km/h (50 mph) until
one gets into town, then it's posted 60 km/h
(37 mph). I didn't say that earlier, but I
imagine it would help out the range/weight
equation a little.
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The problem is that motorcycles, by nature, can't hold many batteries and
have terrible aerodynamics.
I'll grant you that one, for sure. Our Civic
Hybrid gets 62 mpg on the route pretty consistently
(we brought it into Canada when we moved back, so
it's calibrated in miles). Better by up to 50% than
the bike. The hybrid is a 1.2 litre engine, the
bike is 900cc.
If you are able to build a custom frame like Amp Hog,
then that is definitely the way to go.
Frames are no real biggie -- and I know a good
welder. Lots of frames in the aftermarket. Having
said money is "chronic" I guess I mean everybody
always wants a little more. Still, I can devote
a little to such a project, amount determined by
the eventual return. One thing that really heats
up my wires is thinking about having to put the
darn thing in a trailer, hook that to a large
gas-burning pickup, and tow it somewhere to ride
it. I'm not really interested in racing it, which
is a hobby of a different stripe. Nor am I all
that interested in offroading, mainly because of
the necessity of a hauling vehicle but also
because it'd be a solitary activity for me.
I must say the sound of a rubber tire spinning
on asphalt without the thunder of an engine does
have a visceral appeal. :)=)}
If you only need 50km range at 70km, then you could go with a small car
with a 96V pack of GC batteries, umm maybe $1,000 for the battery pack.
And some such may very well be what we end up
with. Philosophically, I like the idea of using
electricity as the motive power of a fun
vehicle that gets me to where I need to go. I
guess that's my definition of "good for
something" -- I don't want to do it just to do
it, and then have to manufacture excuses to
drive it or have to haul it on a trailer to
some place where I can use it.
Are the requires in BC different from the rest of Canada?
Good question. Each province is different, as
far as I know. Here in BC, for instance, you
deal with only one agency, Insurance Corporation
of BC. They're it. You get your tags, registration
and insurance all in one document. They're not
really up to speed on EVs yet. Asking questions
has been less than productive, but I understand
there is a vast difference between registering
an EV car and an EV bike. They keep getting hung
up on the fact that it wouldn't fit under the
NEV or scooter heading, then they start asking
about cc displacement, because their computer
won't let them leave that field blank.
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. An EV truck
a small truck with a load of batteries can do quite well. For example
convert one of the mini-
pickups from the 1970's.
{or}
build your own low-tech hybrid as a short-range EV but with a
range-extending generator.
There are some interesting truck-like EVs out there.
Converting a small truck is a definite possibility.
Well. Reality rears its ugly head yet again. One
of the little drawbacks of living out in the
ginseng. When we lived in town this would have
been a far easier thing to do. Back to my muttons,
I suppose -- with additional knowledge that I
badly needed.
Thanks, gentlemen!
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick,
There are all sorts of cautions against wiring the
E-meter shunt sense to anything other than the neg.
side; as in, you'll destroy the meter and void the
warranty.
A dedicated power supply, both + and - 12V, is the
best option. As you pointed out, your solution will
cause imbalances, but it can be done. Even given a
sag under HV load, your meter will work.
Anyone else want to weigh in?
peace,
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Well, I _finally_ got an E-meter :-) Two quick
> questions:
>
> 1) Does the E-meter's shunt have to be inserted in
> the wiring to the
> negative side of the battery pack or can I insert it
> on the positive
> side of the battery pack?
>
> 2) As a very temporary solution, would it be okay to
> power the E-meter
> by tapping off 24 volts from a section of the
> traction battery pack? I
> know this could cause EQ problems in the series
> string, but my main
> concern is whether doing this will hurt the E-meter
> or not?
>
> I can't wait to get this E-meter going so I can get
> some real solid data
> regarding my Jeep's energy usage and such...
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
Just a quick question this time: are the controllers for
driving permanent-magnet motors (like the Etek) just MOSFET PWM
controllers? What kind of switching frequency do they use?
Typically 5...20 kHz carrier.
Also, when recharging batteries at constant current,
is it okay to PWM or do they need more looking after than that?
PWM is fine.
I'm wondering if the same MOSFET could be asked to do
both jobs ...
This how regen works - the same silicon moves energy both ways
(into and out of the pack).
If you feed mains power from the motor side and fool inverter
into continuous regen, you get your charger which re-uses
the same silicon (that is how t-zero is set up).
-----sharks
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys, I've got an issue. 2000 incident-free miles,
now this:
Since the tranny swap, I've been blowing the same
fuse, every time.
It's a 12V split; one goes to pin 5 of the controller,
the other to the main contactor. If the voltages
aren't comparable, the controller won't go on. It's a
5A fuse.
All I can figure is that I pulled the controller
mounting plate off to access the tranny. When I put
the controller back, it is possible that I re-routed
the lines to the controller & main contactor. Sooo,
Is it possible that in running the 12V lines closer to
the HV line that I'm inducing some sort of EM pulse
which blows the fuse?
It's a basic fix each time; just stick in a new fuse.
But it's not getting to the root cause.
Most appreciatively,
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 1) Does the E-meter's shunt have to be inserted in the wiring to the
> negative side of the battery pack or can I insert it on the positive
> side of the battery pack?
NOOOO!!! ;^> The E-Meter's shunt *MUST* be in the negative lead of the
pack, exactly as shown in the manual. You will fry the meter if you
connect it elsewhere.
> 2) As a very temporary solution, would it be okay to power
> the E-meter by tapping off 24 volts from a section of the traction
> battery pack? I know this could cause EQ problems in the series
> string, but my main concern is whether doing this will hurt the
> E-meter or not?
Yes. You could actually connect it across 12V-30V. Just make sure that
you tap off at the negative end of the string, not just any section in
the pack. The E-Meter supply ground is internally connected to the
voltage sense ground (pack -ve), so bad things are likely to happen
should you choose to tap 24V off from the positive ned of the pack. ;^>
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philip Marino [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >1) Note that there is no vehicle speed in the equation at all
> >(which surprises me), therefore the force due to RR is constant
> >throughout the vehicle speed range.
>
> I would bet, though, that there is some speed-related effect.
One speed-related effect is that aerodynamic downforce (or lift, as the
case may be) causes the weight on each tire to vary with speed, and that
does cause rolling resistance to vary.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
Is it possible that in running the 12V lines closer to
the HV line that I'm inducing some sort of EM pulse
which blows the fuse?
No, in short, it is not possible in your EV. The root cause
is different. It will take mega-amps and perhaps a mile of
wire to induce the current in adjacent isolated conductor
to blow a 5A fuse (unless they are being turns of a transformer,
which they aren't in your case).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been planning to covert an S10 when I can find a
good donor. The small truck would suit my mission to a
tee. Now there is an S10 Solectria for sale on Ebay.
What to do?
First, I don't know much about Solectria, so what are
the opinions out there. Are they good? Are they
expensive to rebattery? How about ongoing maintenance?
Current or past owners, please chime in.
Second, it seems to require 220v to charge. That means
additional wiring at my home and eliminates the
possibility of opportunity charging at my work sites
(I'm a home rehabber). Is there a good way to charge
from 110v?
Finally, I won't get the pleasure to doing the
conversion. However, my wife would see that as a plus
because I would them accomplish other projects more to
her liking. Yeah, this is a personal problem but it
does enter the equation.
So the bottom line here is a plea for pros and cons to
the Solectria S10 pickups.
Thanks
Ken
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What if it was that the LV lines were routed too close
to the fan's permanent magnet, or the PCB of the
controller case? Something just isn't making sense
here...
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob Bath wrote:
> >
> > Is it possible that in running the 12V lines
> closer to
> > the HV line that I'm inducing some sort of EM
> pulse
> > which blows the fuse?
>
> No, in short, it is not possible in your EV. The
> root cause
> is different. It will take mega-amps and perhaps a
> mile of
> wire to induce the current in adjacent isolated
> conductor
> to blow a 5A fuse (unless they are being turns of a
> transformer,
> which they aren't in your case).
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunat Mueller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > No, it's not effectively cont. At 70mph at steady
> > 6% grade, how many feet will you rise in 1 hr?
>
> 22000 ft.....
> not quite everest, but your point is well taken.
>
> i am not defending this particular method for sizing
> the IC engine (or fuel cell) in a hybrid, but I am
> reporting that this is how it is currently done by
> the automakers.
FWIW, this doesn't seem like such an unreasonable method to me. I just
got back from a weekend trip across the southern interior of BC and
encountered numerous long steep grades. Like 8% for 8km (5mi) in one
instance. No, you aren't doing 70mph up this grade, and it doesn't take
1hr to ascend; probably more like 10 minutes or so.
However, climbing a grade takes a significant amount of power and the
vehicle must be able to sustain that output level for the required
amount of time. Playing a bit with Uve's EV calculator can be
informative. Selecting "aerodynamic small car, FWD" (Cd=0.3, A=18 ft^2)
and juggling the conversion component weights so the final weight is
2834lbs:
grade 50mph 70mph
0% 6.9HP 16.5HP
6% 31.8HP 51.3HP
8% 40.0HP 62.8HP
10% 48.2HP 74.3HP
At 2890lbs, it appears that if a 2005 Prius had just 5-7HP/1000lbs
(20.2HP total) it would be incapable of achieving 70mph on level ground
in still air. Even with 30HP it would be unable to maintain 50mph up a
6% grade (even in still air). And this assumes none of the engine
output power is consumed by accessories such as A/C, etc.
I suspect that the hybrid designers must assume that in the worst case
the electric traction system may be unavailable to assist the ICE while
ascending a long grade, and size the ICE accordingly. This is exactly
the same situation that designers of a pure-EV find themselves in; i.e.
they must size the traction system such that it can satisfy the demands
of a prolonged hillclimb without burning up. It is not sufficient to
size the motor and controller based on operation on flat and level
ground and assume/hope that if/when someone attempts to climb a hill the
hill will end before the motor melts down or the controller overheats
and leaves the EV stuck on the shoulder.
I think the 8% grade for 5mi is a pretty good worst case scenario for
North American drivers. My anemic old Aerostar manages to maintain at
least 40mph up this grade without flogging it too hard, and would
certainly hold 50mph if pushed; I wouldn't think this an unreasonable
minimum performance goal for an EV. There are certainly steeper grades
to be found, but typically at lower speeds and shorter in length.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 05:17:02PM -0700, Ken Albright wrote:
> The small truck would suit my mission to a
> tee. Now there is an S10 Solectria for sale on Ebay.
> What to do?
>
One thing to consider, if you convert a truck, you are increasing the number
of EV's on the road.
This may or may not matter to you at all, but in the bigger scheme of things,
you will be doing more good by converting your own.
Just a though.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hays [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Here in BC, for instance, you
> deal with only one agency, Insurance Corporation
> of BC. They're it. You get your tags, registration
> and insurance all in one document. They're not
> really up to speed on EVs yet. Asking questions
> has been less than productive, but I understand
> there is a vast difference between registering
> an EV car and an EV bike. They keep getting hung
> up on the fact that it wouldn't fit under the
> NEV or scooter heading, then they start asking
> about cc displacement, because their computer
> won't let them leave that field blank.
Hello from Vancouver, Chuck!
The fellow from VEVA (are you a member yet?) who registered his
e-motorbike is noteworthy because his was a ground-up electric trike
(2F1R), not a motorcycle conversion (last I heard, it was for sale; it
would easily satisfy your speed requirements, but I'm not sure about the
range). I think the main thing he had to do "extra" was to take it to a
certified garage to have it inspected.
Randy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> at Canadian Electric Vehicles on Vancouver
Island has converted motorcycles and they are on the road, so it
certainly is possible to find an ICBC office that knows how to do it.
You might want to give him a call or email and ask about his latest
motorcycle conversion (72V, sep-ex). He was quite impressed with its
performance.
Good luck!
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick, a couple of points of caution:
1. wiring the EMeter shunt to the positive side will blow up the E-Meter.
This has been proven by experiment.
2. tapping into the pack at 24V has also caused at least two EMeters to blow
up. Even though the manual says it will work, it is a real pain to have to
ship the EMeter off for repair. EMeters are **not** user repairable.
Purchase a small DC-DC and connect it to the cars 12V supply.
Search the archive, there were a few postings a few months back about these
two specific issues.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Viera
Sent: August 2, 2005 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: E-Meter Questions
Hi everyone,
Well, I _finally_ got an E-meter :-) Two quick questions:
1) Does the E-meter's shunt have to be inserted in the wiring to the
negative side of the battery pack or can I insert it on the positive side of
the battery pack?
2) As a very temporary solution, would it be okay to power the E-meter by
tapping off 24 volts from a section of the traction battery pack? I know
this could cause EQ problems in the series string, but my main concern is
whether doing this will hurt the E-meter or not?
I can't wait to get this E-meter going so I can get some real solid data
regarding my Jeep's energy usage and such...
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> I can see, EVentually a 13k or so Freedom EV in alotta guyz driveways, in
> a few years. EVers first, Joe Sixpack, down the road when he sees the EVer
> driving it every day, and fed up with gas prices.
If I buy a Freedom EV in the future, I want AGM's, a 2K Zilla, PFC
charger, and a 13" motor in it. How many AGM's can you fit in it?
How wide and tall of a back tire can it take, and what method are you
using to drive that back wheel? Is it direct drive, or will it have a
transmission? How much power can the drive transfer handle?
Pic of the Sparrow setup:
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3531/2001corbinsparrow032kn.jpg
Tango setup:
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3502/tangomotors4mf.jpg
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roger, Bob,
Roger Stockton wrote:
NOOOO!!! ;^> The E-Meter's shunt *MUST* be in the negative lead of
the pack, exactly as shown in the manual. You will fry the meter if
you connect it elsewhere.
Bob Bath wrote:
There are all sorts of cautions against wiring the E-meter shunt
sense to anything other than the neg. side; as in, you'll destroy the
meter and void the warranty.
Well that's not cool. This means that I've got to figure out how to
either A) mount the shunt in the small space where the negative
contactor is installed in my Jeep's rear battery box or B) move the
negative contactor into the motor compartment. Oh well, I guess by now
I'm pretty used to going back and re-doing/modifying/adding things when
it comes to this conversion...
Roger Stockton wrote:
Yes. You could actually connect it across 12V-30V. Just make sure
that you tap off at the negative end of the string, not just any
section in the pack. The E-Meter supply ground is internally
connected to the voltage sense ground (pack -ve), so bad things are
likely to happen should you choose to tap 24V off from the positive
ned of the pack. ;^>
Bob Bath wrote:
A dedicated power supply, both + and - 12V, is the best option. As
you pointed out, your solution will cause imbalances, but it can be
done. Even given a sag under HV load, your meter will work.
Good to know. I guess I'll have to setup an isolated DC/DC for this
purpose... like the little one sitting unused in my zorched DCP
DC/DC converter.
Thanks,
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4566310584
I'd like to see a pic of the bed tilted up. Or does that bed not tilt up?
Heres some pics from some other truck to see what I'm talking about...
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1531/608e3jk.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2555/608f6em.jpg
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1203/608d1gw.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
Don Cameron wrote:
2. tapping into the pack at 24V has also caused at least two EMeters to blow
up. Even though the manual says it will work, it is a real pain to have to
ship the EMeter off for repair. EMeters are **not** user repairable.
Thanks for the info... I guess I won't be attempting this then.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
If you're locked into 156 volts, how about Optima G31s at 72 lb each? That
would give you about 940 lb of lead.
I would have thought they would be ideal but I have been warned that these
batteries do not perform as well as their smaller counterparts. If that
isn't true what can I expect from those batteries? Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-08-02, Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> However, climbing a grade takes a significant amount of power and the
> vehicle must be able to sustain that output level for the required
> amount of time. Playing a bit with Uve's EV calculator can be
> informative.
Hey, that thing is great. Any idea if it can be made to work for
motorcycles?
I tried plugging in Cd=0.6, F.A.=6sqft, and told it I had 130/80-17
tyres (halving the coefficient because there's only two of them)
and made up a bunch of stuff in the other fields and it seems to
come out with something vaguely realistic in terms of HP per
top speed ... and indicates that'd I'd better keep away from
hills.
Anyone know what the various motor factors (a,b,c,d,k,n) are for
an Etek motor?
-----sharks
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--- Begin Message ---
In most race cars including the Electric Imp and, I think, in most street
cars, this is already being done to a lesser extend with building camber
gain or loss into the suspension. The chassis still tilts the wrong way but
the tires can tilt into the curve like a motorcycle.
For straight-line braking or accelerating having the tire flat to the
pavement should be optimum.
The bottom of the tire should sit like this _
Turning left, viewed from the back,
with the force of the axle pushing out (-->) above
and the tire friction resisting at the ground (<--)
the outside tire wants to go like this /_/ and the bottom of the tire will
end up tipping out like this \
Instead the suspension pivots in such a way that as the suspension
compresses for the outside wheel (since the car body is rolling this
way -->) the tire gains camber tilting the top of the tire in \_\ which
combined with the forces making the tire tilt out /_/ gives us a nice flat
contact patch to the road surface |_|.
You try and set up the suspension to lose camber on the inside wheel but
this is has less effect.
The reason you do not see radical amounts of camber gain and loss in a race
car's suspension is that the suspension also compresses in the front and
extends in the rear under braking. Too much camber gain or loss would mean
your front tire bottoms would rest on their inside edges and look like this:
\ /
and the rear tire bottoms would rest on their outside edges and look like
this:
/ \
This would make braking interesting.
The design of the tire is probably the most important factor on what camber
will work best. Sidewall stiffness, grip and radial belts vs. bias ply's. We
run somewhere like -3.5 degrees of static camber at ride height and gain
another .25 degrees at full bump.
<I see. I just know this is being done, and thought an idea has
perfect merit. One example (sorry, longish URL):
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7182-1-390021-1-0-0-348452-0-0-135-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-1,00.html
>
Wow, they are using 20 degrees " in combination with the newly developed
tires "
They say: " All four wheels of the research car can be instantly cambered
during emergency braking, which shortens the braking distance from 100 km/h
by a good five metres."
I do not see how cambering the tires help unless it is because "They tilt to
the side and ride on a specially optimized area of the tyre tread which has
a particularly high coefficient of friction".
Maybe the tire rests on another section which is low rolling resistance when
perfectly vertical?
<Scroll down to multimedia (right bottom) Tokyo Motor Show
and watch the movie in action how this is being done.>
Opps, they only offer Real Player and I do not want another player on this
computer.
<Tilting outside (to the turn) wheels on which is almost
all the weight during cornering, is done, but he tires shown
aren't rounded as for motorcycles. Apparently it is not a
requirement - I bet these Germans know very well what they are doing.>
I hopes so because I can't figure it out<G>.
In the still picture the outside edge of the bottom of the outer front tire
is not touching the ground. It looks like they are not using the whole
surface of the bottom of the tire. Might there be two types of surfaces
sharing the bottom of the tire? Do they want the car not to ride on the
"specially optimized area of the tyre tread which has a particularly high
coefficient of friction" during normal driving to save wear and then they
radically camber the car in the turns? Does it look different in the video?
The car sure looks cool but what's with the funky caps?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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--- Begin Message ---
The OEVA will hold our annual EV-awareness day at Pioneer Courthouse
Square, 6th and Yamhill Streets, in Portland Oregon. The date is
Saturday Aug. 20, 9am to 5pm.
As usual, all NW folks are invited to bring EV's. We'll continue the
tradition of providing dinner afterwards for out-of-town folks who bring
their EV's. We have 4 20A circuits for 120V charging on site, and the
PGE charging nearby can provide 240V for before/after charging.
We are still working on trailer parking, but expect to have that closed
soon.
Gary Graunke
Co-chairman, OEVA www.oeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Solectria's conversions, particularly those after the first generation, were
very, very clean. I would even go so far as to call them beautiful. They
almost looked like factory EVs. Very impressive.
The E10 used two motors mounted directly to the rear axle, flipped so the
motors were behind it. Batteries were under the bed; controllers, too, I
believe.
IIRC, as fitted they used either 24 or 36 (I forget which) Deka Dominator
gel batteries. Others could be fitted, probably at lower cost, but the
Dekas are very reliable and long lived. Battery changes would mean the need
to reprofile or change the charger.
The E10s weren't tire burners, but they went OK. Reliability was and is
quite good on these EV components, except for some periodic charger problems
(mostly blown fuses, occasionally worse than that). They were built to be
driven by ordinary power company employees.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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