EV Digest 4554
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Woodburn event.
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fuel cell bike
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Thoughts on Range
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: My maybe Datson project
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Buy Solectria or convert???
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: E-Meter Questions (woes)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: PWM Controller for motor and charging?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Segway?
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) 96v Voltsrabbit vs 26 Exides or Optimas for a Wayout Rabbit.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Is the timatable as NEDRS site says. I need to reserve my tickets so I
would like to have right dates to be there :)
-Jukka
fevt.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> How many people wouldn't change to hydrogen electric if it were
> possible?
>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0802_050802_fuelcellcycle_2.html
The long term problem with the system in the above link is they plan
on making the hydrogen from biodiesel and ethanol. I don't think
enough can ever be made to run all the existing vehicles. The supply
won't be able to meet the demand.
The ultimate method seems to be making it from water. Any
enviromental drawbacks?
>OK, right now hydrogen is a little hard to come by,
There will soon be a "hydrogen generator" on the market to make it
from water. How much it costs though remains unknown..
Pics / info:
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/
----
Also, I have seen 5000, 7500, and 10,000(23,000psi burst rating) psi
hydrogen gas tanks. How much do they cost, how long do they last
and/or, how often do they have to be inspected? Something about the
hydrogen working it's way through the tank and causing the material to
start to flake off?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Danny Miller wrote:
It's generally not the controller that makes the noise but the motors.
True, but only the funky Curtis models 1221C and 1231C 'generate' the
offending audible whine that makes the motor act like a speaker...get a
good high frequency controller, no noise. Use a Curtis model 1221C or
1231C and end up with an irritating whining motor in your otherwise
silent and pleasant EV.
magnetic field variations physically shake the structure of the
stator, rotor, and housing.
Correction...you just described the parts of an AC motor. When talking
about DC motor controllers, then we're also talking about DC motors, not
AC. Thus, it's ' magnetic field variations physically shake the
structure of the field coils and pole shoes, armature, and housing'.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You should get some anvantage with reduced weight but it is about the 5
Ah you use less... Performance should be better @ lower SOC.
137 cells... will be interesting set ;) have fun.
My experience was from 450 kg lead acid to 125 kg lion, 180 ah (20h) vs
190 ah (1h), 72 V vs 75,6 V.
Range pretty much doubled. In acceleration with 350 A 72 V had troubles
to keep rear tires not spinnig. Original suspension was stiff and made
car like santacaluses sledge to sit in.
-Jukka
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
I'm going to try running my Sparrow on BB600 NiCd cells. 137 of them to
be exact.
So the pack will be:
NiCd Optima YT
164V 156V (nominal)
452 lbs 558 lbs
~40AH ~45AH (? at 65A)
The NiCd's are a lot stiffer than the YT's. Their voltage stays up
pretty well until the very end. They also don't suffer from Cold
weather nearly as much.
I think I'll get more useable range, since you REALLY don't want to take
the YT's down to 80 or 90% DOD, and the NiCd's don't really care. (Just
don't reverse them.)
(Note that this is a non-trivial conversion, as I'll have to modify the
under-seat battery box.)
Any comments or ideas?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone
Its been awhile since my last post. As most of you know I finally completed
the Siamese 8s for John and was for the most part happy with the out come of
the project. As this was my first attempt to Siaminize (as Bob put it) a pair
of motors it was a real learning experience and there are a couple of issues
that I am eager to see tested as Im sure John is also. On other notes Doug
Weathers will be getting a variable timing brush ring retrofit to his 8 ADC as
we are scheduled to pull his motor out tomorrow in Bend. I also located 5
advance 9 inch pump motors from forklifts that take the same armature and
fields that are used in the EV version #FB1-4001 I believe. I ordered the
drive motor type shaft and drive end plate and will be converting it to a drive
motor with variable timing. I believe I can shave 2 inches off the housing to
make the motor 15 inches long down from 17. Im currently working with Jay
Donnaway who will be hopefully using it to power one of his Ca!
rmengia
conversions. We will be shaving 2 inches off the housing to hopefully allow
him to install the motor without having to cut out anything from the body from
his prized convertible.
I also might be getting my feet wet by obtaining a 1972 Datson 1200 fastback as
a racer for a Hi-Torque flag car. As I have just located several very nice 9
ADCs I want to shave a pair down to mated 31-32 inches total length. I believe
this would be a good power train for a very fast Datson. Right now everything
is still in dream phase but I find myself already excited to start the project.
As Im tired of waiting for John to test my motors I guess Ill have to get
out there and do it myself, hehehe.
As to other topics Ill respond to the following:
Ø Try and get some pics of one of those mythical 15" monsters...
Do two 9s equal an 18? hehehe
> I'll look around<g>!
Ø Also see if they have anything even more fierce that could be put in a
EV...
You and I could be scarry together Ryan just what would you do with a monster
motor lets say triple 9s?
> I only want the most fiercest motor in all the land... ;)
You know I say this too.
I say this too!
Ø I'll ASK around, how deep are your pockets??
Yeah how deep are your pockets?? LMAO
> Might have to see what one of these 13" motors is good for... ( I suspect the
> 15" might not have much rpm potential?)
> Just what is the absolute upper amp limit of the 13" motor anyways?
Well hopefully John will have some input on a 13 inch interpoled unit if and
when he stops playing around, and as a newbie here I too am curious.
Howbout a killer Jim Husted siamonise setup like Wayland has?
See that at Woodburn, seeya there?
Bob
Thanks Bob, I look forward to meeting you at Woodburn
Anyway Im out of here
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:17 PM 8/2/05 -0700, you wrote:
I've been planning to covert an S10 when I can find a
good donor. The small truck would suit my mission to a
tee. Now there is an S10 Solectria for sale on Ebay.
What to do?
First, I don't know much about Solectria, so what are
the opinions out there. Are they good? Are they
expensive to rebattery?
About $3k to replace the East Penn/Sonnenschein/Dekas.
How about ongoing maintenance?
Like any EV, no real "maintenance" except tire pressures, checking battery
connections, etc. No watering with these batteries.
Current or past owners, please chime in.
Second, it seems to require 220v to charge. That means
additional wiring at my home and eliminates the
possibility of opportunity charging at my work sites
(I'm a home rehabber). Is there a good way to charge
from 110v?
No. With a high voltage pack, charging off 110VAC would take
FOREVER. (Ok, not quite, but it would feel like it.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to wonder though what the limitations of the type used in the
Solectria are though. I bet it wouldn't be to hard to cause it to
fail catastrophically...
I rather doubt this, since these vehicles were designed for and sold to
fleets (utilities and such). If they were fragile, Solectria wouldn't have
been able to sell many.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive wrote:
> I rather doubt this, since these vehicles were designed for and sold to
> fleets (utilities and such). If they were fragile, Solectria wouldn't have
> been able to sell many.
Sorry I should have been more clear. I was subtly inferring about
it's use in Chris's situation with his 13" motor...
http://ohmbre.org/blog/
How well would that rear or that style hold up with a lot of motor?
(and being abused in a drag race type environment! ;) )
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
I downloaded and read the manuel for the BCM
One thing that really caught my attention, on page 8, was -
"The BCM also is suitable for galvanic deposition application where deposition
rate of expensive material has to be monitored for the cost control."
How does that figure with EV's? Can the BCM be used for sputtering metals?
I think the ability to install it in a more confined space by cutting the
display board is pretty neat.
So could the BCM be used in another battery system, such as PV or Boat systems
like where the Emeter, link 10, link 1000 etc was originally designed for?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: E-Meter Questions (woes)
> Nick, the prices are on the web site, and haven't changed
> from day one (just fluctuate with currency exchange rate).
>
> David, I think Lee was referring to only Link 10 e-meter, not
> "an" emeter in general.
>
> Yes, BRUSA Ah counter *is* designed for EV from ground up.
> It is totally isolated from the pack, the shunt can be installed
> anywhere without damage, need a few mA of house 12V to operate,
> consumes 1-2mA from the pack to run conversion circuit.
> No prescalers (covers 6...500V in one shot), no DC-DC converters.
> Has half-pack tap input (if you want to take advantage of it)
> so allows to detect the difference between both halves (e.g.
> any battery problem), Etc, etc.
>
> Yes, because of all this + Swiss made (not in China) it cost couple
> of hundred more - no one expects it to cost the same. Yet, how many
> people here care? Convinced people is stubborn, you know :-)
> They will come up with unbelievable solution to save a buck *now*.
>
> Just re-read this Steve's passage:
> ============
> I;ve done this but only becuse I didn;t have a dc to dc converter handy,
> I would have to charge the meter battery once a week and it seemed to
> die when I needed it most. all in all best get a dc to dc converter ,...
> along these lines , I have though that if you have a few things that
> need a isolated supply one could use a inverter to step up the voltage
> and then a transformer to bring it back down and isolate it and use some
> of the inverted 120ac to run a small fountan pump that people use to
> cool there zilla's.
> ============
> (Don't get me wrong Steve, my hat's off to the geniuses of creativity.
> It is good, but just so amateurish).
>
> To me frankly it's sad but also funny to read about blown e-meters.
> BRUSA counters were (and are) made for a long time and IMHO there is
> no better instrument for an EV, but I stopped promoting it (or any
> top notch hardware for that matter) on EVDL.
>
> Normally I guess it would takes 2-3 blown e-meters to start
> looking for something else, but it is natural inertia like
> with ADC motors. e-meter has been used de-facto for long time
> by everyone thus must be so good that common impression is that
> nothing else worth considering. Or people just dislike Euro stuff
> for no real reason (is it "made not here syndrome?), I can't
> explain it. I'm happy with my Ah counter.
> Since anyone has this option, honestly, I don't care; if people don't
> use it, they must have their reasons. All I can see is that many are
> just missing out and could be far better of with AH counter, but just
> talking about it again and again changes nothing.
>
> Victor
>
>
> Nick Austin wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 02:05:47AM -0400, David Roden wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 Aug 2005 at 22:56, Lee Hart wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> You have to understand that the E-meter wasn't designed for EVs.
>>>
>>> But the Brusa meters are not as cheap as the E-meter, so ...
>>
>>
>> Do you know how much they are?
>>
>> Perhaps Victor sells them?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=33&t=1938&s=8316d5164c870bc630a5f6267117bb34
This is Logisystem's phone number. They don't have a website yet.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We're talking about the Curtis squeel. LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
It's generally not the controller that makes the noise but the motors.
The magnetic field variations physically shake the structure of the
stator, rotor, and housing.
Hmm, meethinks he's putting in a 200v IRFB260N... just a guess. Now the
biggest n-channel mosfet I could find in 200v is a 580 amps IXYS module,
it costs a lot more than 10 of those. But the mounting is far, far
easier and having 10x fewer transistors tends to make it 10x less prone
to failure. IXYS looks like something they put a lot of quality
control into too. IXYS makes some rocking stuff- that huge module has a
ceramic insulated backing so there's no issues with insulator failure
and little issue with insulator thermal resistance. They put cable
screw terminals on the component itself so you don't have the big issues
associated with running hundreds of amps through a PCB trace either.
Danny
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I don't know but he said the controller will now be silent. Lawrence
Rhodes..............
----- Original Message ----- From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
Cool, what part number fet is going into it? What switching freq is
it using?
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunately, (or not, depending on perspective), that money has already
been spent. I haven't updated the site to show it yet (something about
these all-nighters at the office, etc) but I have a Strange nodular center
section with Lenco billet locker, 35-spline axles and a Chris Alston
fabricated housing waiting to go under the truck.
Waiting until I figure out how to modify the rear frame to mount the
4-link suspension, that is.
Pictures, soon, I promise. :o)
--chris
Ryan Stotts said:
> Electro Automotive wrote:
>
>> I rather doubt this, since these vehicles were designed for and sold to
>> fleets (utilities and such). If they were fragile, Solectria wouldn't
>> have
>> been able to sell many.
>
> Sorry I should have been more clear. I was subtly inferring about
> it's use in Chris's situation with his 13" motor...
>
> http://ohmbre.org/blog/
>
> How well would that rear or that style hold up with a lot of motor?
> (and being abused in a drag race type environment! ;) )
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=33&t=1938&s=8316d5164c870bc630a5f6267117bb34
You can read some of the comments from some of the guys that have had 1000
amp modifications. LR.......
I believe they are just replacing the existing
old FET's with new ones having a lower Rds on (that is
the conduction losses are much lower). They may also
change the gate resistor for faster switching times (I
don't really know what they are changing).
I guess the real question is how much current can the
existing PCB traces can actually handle.
I wonder if they have conducted any thermal tests to
see if it can handle higher currents (my guess is no,
they are making an educated guess based on copper area
that connects to the existing traces).
Since they are swapping out TO-220 devices the case
for IXYS modules or anything else is a moot point, you
can't redesign the circuit board easily to handle a
module.
Maybe Lawrence can report back on how this new control
handles the amps!
Rod
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It's generally not the controller that makes the
noise but the motors.
The magnetic field variations physically shake the
structure of the
stator, rotor, and housing.
Hmm, meethinks he's putting in a 200v IRFB260N...
just a guess. Now the
biggest n-channel mosfet I could find in 200v is a
580 amps IXYS module,
it costs a lot more than 10 of those. But the
mounting is far, far
easier and having 10x fewer transistors tends to
make it 10x less prone
to failure. IXYS looks like something they put a
lot of quality
control into too. IXYS makes some rocking stuff-
that huge module has a
ceramic insulated backing so there's no issues with
insulator failure
and little issue with insulator thermal resistance.
They put cable
screw terminals on the component itself so you don't
have the big issues
associated with running hundreds of amps through a
PCB trace either.
Danny
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I don't know but he said the controller will now
be silent. Lawrence
> Rhodes..............
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Danny Miller"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Cc: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:48 AM
> Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by
Logisystems
>
>
>> Cool, what part number fet is going into it?
What switching freq is
>> it using?
>>
>> Danny
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
>> Cool, what part number fet is going into it? What switching freq
>> is it using?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I don't know but he said the controller will now be silent.
The Curtis 1221B controllers all switch at 15 KHz. It was silent before,
and should be silent after.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-08-03, Danny Miller wrote:
>
> Hmm, meethinks he's putting in a 200v IRFB260N... just a guess. Now the
> biggest n-channel mosfet I could find in 200v is a 580 amps IXYS module,
> it costs a lot more than 10 of those. But the mounting is far, far
> easier and having 10x fewer transistors tends to make it 10x less prone
> to failure. IXYS looks like something they put a lot of quality
> control into too. IXYS makes some rocking stuff- that huge module has a
> ceramic insulated backing so there's no issues with insulator failure
> and little issue with insulator thermal resistance. They put cable
> screw terminals on the component itself so you don't have the big issues
> associated with running hundreds of amps through a PCB trace either.
<http://www.ixys.com/Appasp/pdmmod02.asp>
Those do look real nice ... anyone got the faintest idea how much
they're worth, and where they can be obtained?
-----sharks
--
"The question of whether computers can think is like the question of
whether submarines can swim" -- E. W. Dijkstra
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> If you could use the same silicon for motoring and regeneration,
>> or even just for regeneration and recharging, that'd save you a
>> bit of money off the total cost.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> It depends. In general sort of yes, but it's like buying a TV with
> integrated VCR and DVD player in it. It may cost less than all 3
> separate units combined, but
>
> 1 - you can't upgrade any one of them
> 2 - if any fails, most likely everything quit working and you got
> to replace whole unit (like PS died or such).
>
> For this reasons people prefer to have separate units.
> For the same reason Siemens doesn't integrate chargers
> into inverters and in fact quit integrating DC-DC either.
Combining functions into one box makes the most sense when
a. the functions are always used together
b. they share a lot of expensive parts
In general, motor controllers and generator controllers are so much
alike that it makes sense to combine them into a single unit that does
both motoring and regen.
But, an EV's DC/DC converter and battery charger are significantly
different functions from a motor controller. So it's rare for them to
share parts, and so rare to find them both in the same case.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Short bursts of high power for a scooter are no
problem for this control. My concern was high current
draws on a heavier vehicle that would stress the PCB
connections to the MOSFET's on this control that was
designed for much lower current limit. I think you
are installing this in a much heavier vehicle than the
link listed below. The scooter may draw high current
for a very short period of time during acceleration,
but continuous current will be quite low even for this
control.
Rod
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=33&t=1938&s=8316d5164c870bc630a5f6267117bb34
>
> You can read some of the comments from some of the
> guys that have had 1000
> amp modifications. LR.......
>
> >I believe they are just replacing the existing
> > old FET's with new ones having a lower Rds on
> (that is
> > the conduction losses are much lower). They may
> also
> > change the gate resistor for faster switching
> times (I
> > don't really know what they are changing).
> > I guess the real question is how much current can
> the
> > existing PCB traces can actually handle.
> > I wonder if they have conducted any thermal tests
> to
> > see if it can handle higher currents (my guess is
> no,
> > they are making an educated guess based on copper
> area
> > that connects to the existing traces).
> > Since they are swapping out TO-220 devices the
> case
> > for IXYS modules or anything else is a moot point,
> you
> > can't redesign the circuit board easily to handle
> a
> > module.
> > Maybe Lawrence can report back on how this new
> control
> > handles the amps!
> > Rod
> >
> > --- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> It's generally not the controller that makes the
> >> noise but the motors.
> >> The magnetic field variations physically shake
> the
> >> structure of the
> >> stator, rotor, and housing.
> >>
> >> Hmm, meethinks he's putting in a 200v IRFB260N...
> >> just a guess. Now the
> >> biggest n-channel mosfet I could find in 200v is
> a
> >> 580 amps IXYS module,
> >> it costs a lot more than 10 of those. But the
> >> mounting is far, far
> >> easier and having 10x fewer transistors tends to
> >> make it 10x less prone
> >> to failure. IXYS looks like something they put
> a
> >> lot of quality
> >> control into too. IXYS makes some rocking stuff-
> >> that huge module has a
> >> ceramic insulated backing so there's no issues
> with
> >> insulator failure
> >> and little issue with insulator thermal
> resistance.
> >> They put cable
> >> screw terminals on the component itself so you
> don't
> >> have the big issues
> >> associated with running hundreds of amps through
> a
> >> PCB trace either.
> >>
> >> Danny
> >>
> >> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >>
> >> > I don't know but he said the controller will
> now
> >> be silent. Lawrence
> >> > Rhodes..............
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Danny
> Miller"
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > To: <[email protected]>
> >> > Cc: "Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:48 AM
> >> > Subject: Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by
> >> Logisystems
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Cool, what part number fet is going into it?
> >> What switching freq is
> >> >> it using?
> >> >>
> >> >> Danny
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
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Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
>On 2005-08-03, Danny Miller wrote:
>
>
>>Hmm, meethinks he's putting in a 200v IRFB260N... just a guess. Now the
>>biggest n-channel mosfet I could find in 200v is a 580 amps IXYS module,
>>it costs a lot more than 10 of those. But the mounting is far, far
>>easier and having 10x fewer transistors tends to make it 10x less prone
>>to failure. IXYS looks like something they put a lot of quality
>>control into too. IXYS makes some rocking stuff- that huge module has a
>>ceramic insulated backing so there's no issues with insulator failure
>>and little issue with insulator thermal resistance. They put cable
>>screw terminals on the component itself so you don't have the big issues
>>associated with running hundreds of amps through a PCB trace either.
>>
>>
>
><http://www.ixys.com/Appasp/pdmmod02.asp>
>
>Those do look real nice ... anyone got the faintest idea how much
>they're worth, and where they can be obtained?
>
>-----sharks
>
>
I can't find the exact modules you're looking at, but one comment would
be that you would likely want to use a IGBT that would have lower
overall losses at the voltages used in an EV. The modules are quite
expensive but they are IMO worth the money depending on the application.
Internation Rectifier makes a few "SOT-227" package [a module with screw
terminals] IGBTs. The biggest one I see at Digi-Key is 600v 100A and
costs $50. You can buy 10 for $41.60 a piece. Not a bad price for a 60kW
device.
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://wwia.org/
http://nnytech.net/
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Christopher Robison wrote:
> Waiting until I figure out how to modify the rear frame to mount the
> 4-link suspension, that is.
Check out an issue of this magazine at the store. Seems like if I
remember right, lots of various 4 link setups for sale:
http://www.truckinweb.com/
Or do you already have the 4 link?
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On 2005-08-03, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>
> I can't find the exact modules you're looking at, but one comment would
> be that you would likely want to use a IGBT that would have lower
> overall losses at the voltages used in an EV.
Ah, I should have mentioned: I'm one of those motorbicyclist types,
so probably looking at 48-72V systems (4-6 Lead Acid batteries)
running at up to 300A (briefly).
You're right though, I should do the numbers on IGBT vs. MOSFET
once I've worked out the likely amount of time at various loads ...
it might be that there's a grey area.
-----sharks
--
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <http://zoic.org/sharkey/>
"There is no rule of law until the Mafia needs lawyers." -- Stephen Holmes
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I already have it. it's from Chris Alston Chassisworks (same as the rear
end housing). The rear link mounts are on the housing, just need to be
positioned and welded on.
The problem is the front mounts, which when positioned properly forward of
the axle, don't end up in the right spot relative to the frame. This is
true even if I were to use the crossmember that came with the kit; it
wouldn't intersect with the frame correctly. At any rate I hope to avoid
using that crossmember because it goes where the middle battery boxes need
to be.
What I need is for the frame to go straight back from the cab and then
bend sharply upward at the right distance from the axle. At the rear of
that bend would be the front 4-link mount. What I have instead is a frame
that gradually curves up and over the axle.
With that, and figuring out how to locate the center without a panhard bar
(a watts link sounds like the right idea) I anticipate some interesting
metalwork in my future.
That is, if I ever get to have a life again outside this office...
Incidentally, I won't go into my personal opinion about Truckin magazine
(or its sibling Mini-truckin, which would be more appropriate for this
project) but there's something important about many of the suspension
products that you see advertised in these sorts of publications that isn't
immediately apparent to someone not already familiar with that part of the
aftermarket. You probably already know this Ryan, but for the automotive
neophytes like myself:
There is a huge difference between a true adjustable 4-link hotrod
suspension and the light-duty parallel 4-link setups you often see in
these magazines. The latter are developed for style -- typically for
lowering a truck, and are neither capable of handling high torque nor
providing a proper, configurable and predictable response to a hard
launch.
To do that, you need the adjustability of a real 4-link ... and a bit of
math.
--chris
Ryan Stotts said:
> Christopher Robison wrote:
>
>> Waiting until I figure out how to modify the rear frame to mount the
>> 4-link suspension, that is.
>
> Check out an issue of this magazine at the store. Seems like if I
> remember right, lots of various 4 link setups for sale:
>
> http://www.truckinweb.com/
>
> Or do you already have the 4 link?
>
>
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On 2005-08-02, Neon John wrote:
>
> Two Segways cannot pass on our sidewalks because the Segway is so wide
> and the steering so imprecise. That pretty much rules out its use on
> any significant scale.
That's what annoys me about them ... if you took the two wheels
and put them one in front of the other, you'd have a scooter
which did everything the Segway does but without all the
complexity of that dynamic balance thingo.
But anyway. I have to admit, it's terribly tempting to buy a
"powered wheel" and a couple of gel cells and try it :-).
-----sharks
--
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
-- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.
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Digikey has them for $261, but they list 6 as a minimum quantity.
Danny
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
<http://www.ixys.com/Appasp/pdmmod02.asp>
Those do look real nice ... anyone got the faintest idea how much
they're worth, and where they can be obtained?
-----sharks
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I'm assuming you're looking at the GA200SA60U 100A 600V IGBT:
At 100 amps this device has a forward voltage of 1.625v, so it will
dissipate 162.5 watts of power.
That 580A FET module driven to 100 amps will have a forward voltage of
only 38mV, and dissipates only 38 watts.
OK, this is sort of an apples-to-oranges problem. But here it is:
IGBTs, no matter what their size, have to drop about 1v at light
currents, and up to around 2.5v at their max rated current. That can
mean a lot of power dropout. MOSFETs do not have a minimum voltage
dropout but instead a simple resistance. That can potentially make the
voltage drop and heat generation extremely small.
MOSFETs can be run in parallel without much issue. IGBTs, like all
bipolar technology, don't! To understand why, look at the VCE-ICE
graph. As the junction warms up, it drops less voltage than a colder
junction provided you are on the left-hand side of where those Tj=25C
and Tj=125C cross. That means more current flows through the warm
device and less in the cold device, further increasing the temp and
current imbalance. This can be compensated with adding more resistance
on each leg before they get tied back together. Unfortunately that
resistance is a further heat generation issue and unless made fairly
large then it will only reduce the imbalance, not eliminate it. For
example, just looking at the span on the graph, something like 0.5mOhm
to 2.5mOhm (WAG) would be needed to share the current. Based on the
worst case of that WAG, that's 25 watts of heat generation to deal with
per 100 amps of current. So you want 600 amps capacity, you get 6
modules, you will need to burn 150 watts. In truth, it's a bit better
than that- if we use copper to make up the resistance, copper resistance
increases as it heats up which would further stabilize the current sharing.
Actually IGBT technology is quite useful, there is no "bad" technology.
I think they get used a lot more often in high power distribution,
rectification, and phase control than MOSFETs. In general, they come in
higher voltage ratings than MOSFETs. Also very important, most all
MOSFETs have an intrinsic zener body diode in the package which is
inappropriate for some applications. But if you want to look into IGBTs
I might recommend shooting for doing it all with a single device to
avoid current sharing issues.
A side caveat- some transistors have listed ridiculous current
capabilities that the package can't even support. I've never figured
out how they can claim this as a power rating!
Danny
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
I can't find the exact modules you're looking at, but one comment would
be that you would likely want to use a IGBT that would have lower
overall losses at the voltages used in an EV. The modules are quite
expensive but they are IMO worth the money depending on the application.
Internation Rectifier makes a few "SOT-227" package [a module with screw
terminals] IGBTs. The biggest one I see at Digi-Key is 600v 100A and
costs $50. You can buy 10 for $41.60 a piece. Not a bad price for a 60kW
device.
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On 2005-08-03, Danny Miller wrote:
> Digikey has them for $261, but they list 6 as a minimum quantity.
So they do. Thanks!
And a quick leaf through Digikey's book find me a line
of IXYS MOSFETs which I hadn't found on IXYS's website:
<http://www.ixys.com/Appasp/pdhfet01.asp>
For example: IXFN200N07, a 70V, 200A MOSFET in a SOT-227B, which
Digikey will sell for the princely sum of US$40 for one ...
-----sharks
--
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore,
if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not
smart enough to debug it." -- Brian Kernighan
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Hmm, Digikey does also show a 600A 250V IGBT for $248. Similar to the
cost of that 580A MOSFET.
That IGBT would only dissipate 75W at 100A. The cost is there, but so
is the performance.
If I remember the IGBT has benefits over MOSFETs in terms of switching
speed. That switching behavior on both transitions is often responsible
for more heat generation than the on-state behavior. It could
conceivably run cooler than the MOSFET in the end.
Pricewise, I wouldn't take Digikey too literally. They are sometimes
pricey on specialty components. I've seen stuff on mfg sites that sell
for 2/3 - 1/2 of what Digikey wants in some cases. If I was going to
consider something like that I'd talk to the mfg about suppliers, maybe
try to talk them out of a sample.
I just wouldn't feel good about throwing a large number of cheap MOSFETs
in parallel. Failure of a single one here would be catastrophic!
Realistically you'd probably want to fuse each transistor to be safe,
which further increases the cost. That allows the vehicle to keep
running if the controller breaks, but you'd still have blown components
here.
Danny
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
<http://www.ixys.com/Appasp/pdmmod02.asp>
Those do look real nice ... anyone got the faintest idea how much
they're worth, and where they can be obtained?
-----sharks
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Yes but a 70V will not meet the needs of an electric car. Perhaps a
scooter would operate on a lower voltage like that, but not a car. I
was going through HV ones with the idea of a 144v or so battery.
Certainly if you are going with a lower voltage system, the lower
voltage one is a better choice. That's why there's no "one size fits
all" controller solution.
Danny
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
And a quick leaf through Digikey's book find me a line
of IXYS MOSFETs which I hadn't found on IXYS's website:
<http://www.ixys.com/Appasp/pdhfet01.asp>
For example: IXFN200N07, a 70V, 200A MOSFET in a SOT-227B, which
Digikey will sell for the princely sum of US$40 for one ...
-----sharks
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Danny Miller said:
> Hmm, Digikey does also show a 600A 250V IGBT for $248. Similar to the
> cost of that 580A MOSFET.
>
> That IGBT would only dissipate 75W at 100A. The cost is there, but so
> is the performance.
>
> If I remember the IGBT has benefits over MOSFETs in terms of switching
> speed. That switching behavior on both transitions is often responsible
> for more heat generation than the on-state behavior. It could
> conceivably run cooler than the MOSFET in the end.
I don't have enough knowledge to comment on much else in this thread, but
my understanding has been that it's the opposite -- MOSFETs switch much
faster, and IGBTs tend to handle more current. I dug up this article
which seems to present that view, unless I've misunderstood it:
http://www.irf.com/technical-info/whitepaper/choosewisely.pdf
--chris
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Both weigh about the same. Two strings of Optimas or Exides will give you
156v. The sealed batteries will cost more and need regulators. The 96v
Rabbit will need watering but no regulators. The 156v Rabbit will go fast.
Which one will have better range? Will it be hard to stick 26 batteries in
a Rabbit?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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