EV Digest 4560
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Iota as DC/DC for 144v and higher.
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AGM life
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: soldering nicads?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Iota as DC/DC for 144v and higher.
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Prius Conversion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: If you want motorcycle range this is what you have to do.
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 92 TRACKER going on e-bay
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Prius Conversion?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Prius Conversion?
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: What to do with excess regen power
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Prius Conversion?
by "Brad Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Prius Conversion?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Prius Conversion?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Echo conversion (was RE: Prius Conversion?)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: John's GT-6
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Patent disclosure? (was: RE: If you want motorcycle range...)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have installed one in my 144V truck, but
haven't turned it on yet. I should be getting the last
few bits I need this afternoon. I'll let you know what
happens when I energize it. I have it connecting
through a relay so it's only active when I'm driving
and it doesn't see the 182V finishing charge my pack
sees.
TiM
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--- Begin Message ---
The 13 Exide Orbitals on my Sparrow lasted 16,000
miles. At which point, 5 went bad (<20Ah) under the
seat due mainly to high temperature. The 5 were
replaced with some used one. The pack now has past
20,000 miles. It is now 4 years old.
Of course, I have AIR Lab voltage regulators (my own
design) on each of battery. And, I rarely used more
than 20Ah or less than 5Ah before recharging.
Ed Ang
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Recently I've been playing around with ideas for a
> station car. Batteries
> are of course a critical issue.
>
> I believe one requirement of federal crash testing
> is that there be no
> hazardous fluid leakage caused by the crash. This
> requirement and the
> low-maintenance nature of AGMs makes them very
> attractive.
>
> Until you look at cost. Based on anecdotal
> evidence, battery replacement
> cost alone looks like around double the cost of gas.
> (This does not include
> electricity cost.) Depending on the size of your
> pack, AGMs would have to
> last way past 20,000 miles to match gasoline at 25
> mpg and $2.50/gal (again,
> not including electricity). Has anyone done it? (I
> know NiCds can also
> have a low cost/mile, but the initial investment is
> pretty big.)
>
> I know AGMs have lots of advantages in certain
> applications, and I've heard
> some have squeezed more life out of them than is
> typical. I'm hoping that
> someone out there uses their AGM-powered EV as a
> daily driver, keeps a good
> log, can tell me *exactly* how many miles *their*
> last AGM pack lived and
> *why* it lived that long. Miles, not years.
>
> Anyone? I don't recommend using this info as a
> general rule of thumb, but
> one person's experience with a specific description
> of conditions could be
> very valuable.
>
> If no one can point to an example of long-life AGMs,
> I think the best
> approach for this application is to package GC
> batteries so they ride
> through a crash well. In a station car the high
> power capability of AGMs
> isn't really needed, and the cost savings would go a
> long way toward a
> watering/vent system, heaters, insulation, a good
> monitoring/management
> system, etc.
>
> So, who is the AGM life champion?
>
> TIA,
> Chris
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You already mentioned what I was going to suggest. Use a high-wattage
iron. In the end, you'll end up having _less_ heat go into the battery
if you're quick.
Duncan Orthner wrote:
Hello all,
I have a chance to aquire some nicad cells (new) but they've
been built into somewhat odd ball pack configurations. I'd like to
rearrange them into something more space efficient for a scooter. I
realize the tabs are usually done using a spot welder. . . I've
soldered tabs directly to cells before - but not on this scale. Is
there any reason it's not a good idea to solder the tabs on? I'm very
good at hand soldering - I do it quickly and use a very powerful iron
- I've never <knowingly> damaged a cell this way.
All input appreciated, Duncan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you get the 110 or 220 vac input model? I was originally hoping to run 192
volts, but just couldn't find room for those last 4 batteries in the
conversion. In the mean time I bought a 220 volt version so now I'm woundering
if it will work or not.
TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I have installed one in my 144V truck, but
haven't turned it on yet. I should be getting the last
few bits I need this afternoon. I'll let you know what
happens when I energize it. I have it connecting
through a relay so it's only active when I'm driving
and it doesn't see the 182V finishing charge my pack
sees.
TiM
__________________________________________________
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Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I were you having $15k for conversion budget, and no running
Prius, I'd probably get it fixed. At least with demand so high,
you could sell it then.
120 mile range and overnight recharge is doable, but the car will not
handle as Prius does. If you still want to convert and use lead,
make sure suspension can handle 120 miles range (e.g so much lead weight).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Nick Austin wrote:
Hello,
I have a 2001 Prius that has had a total engine failure at 80,000 Miles. The
body is in good shape. Seems like an ideal EV conversion candidate!
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This part is interesting:
"The Brusa controller gives control of current rather than voltage and
is set up so that twisting the throttle in the reverse direction gives
regeneration."
Wonder where he found a potentiometer handgrip that does reverse?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.futureenergies.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=212
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
How much would you be looking at for a straight sale?
Thanks,
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ohnojoe
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:42 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: 92 TRACKER going on e-bay
>
> I'm going to put my 92 tracker on e-bay. Here is the ad I
> going to use.
> Please let me know if you have any comments.
>
>
>
> You are bidding on a running, fully functional 1992 Geo
> Tracker EV! This EV has 4,500+ miles. .It is a two door two
> seater-with tilt wheel, power steering, power brakes, hard
> top, cloth seats and AM/FM radio. There is room in the rear
> for groceries luggage etc. The car was purchased from G.M.
> and converted with zero miles on it. This EV was built by an
> Electric Utility along with local students in Reading MA.
> This EV was then given to the U.S. Park Service in Boston and
> was used as a park ranger's car until I purchased it earlier
> this year. This is the second EV I have, the other is a
> pick-up which I am keeping. I love driving an EV.
>
>
>
> This is a conversion kit provided by ev-america and every
> part is available from several EV sources. I bought it and
> put a new flooded lead acid battery pack in it and replaced
> the windshield, the dc-dc converter, the plug, 30 amp RV
> charger plug (included is an adaptor for any 110 receptacle
> however you will need to reset the charger which is a turn or
> two of some knobs on the onboard charger) and some wires. I
> have all the manuals that show wiring components ect. I have
> used this car as my commuter car and driven it around town to
> the mall on the highway etc. It is fun to drive and peppy;
> top speed I have driven is 75 mph. The range is 30-50 miles.
> I get the lower end in range but I have a lead (pun intended)
> foot so you might get the higher range.
>
>
>
> The car works perfectly, no rot, a tiny bit of surface rust,
> the interior is better than good, good rubber all around, the
> hard top doesn't leak and is removable, all lights work and
> paint on the under carriage is still bright.
> There are some dings and chips in the paint There is a dent
> by the passenger head light. (I can send pictures). The
> battery pack was bought in February.
>
>
>
>
> This EV is unique yet very practical. This is NOT a hybrid,
> it is a 100% electric vehicle. It uses NO GASOLINE, it runs
> on pure electricity. Because this EV is a conversion this EV
> is simple to maintain, all parts are available and when you
> (not some nonexistent professional) replace the batteries
> down the road it is not going to cost you two or three times
> the cost of the car.
>
>
>
> I am not an ebayer nor am I a car dealer nor I am expert in
> EVs. I bought this EV more or less by accident from a
> government auction I really like it but I have another one.
> It is a good car. Email me [EMAIL PROTECTED] and I will
> answer any questions and send pictures. I am only interested
> in getting my money back plus in the words of Bill Murray in
> CaddyShack "a little something for the effort."
>
>
>
>
> Base Vehicle:
>
> 1992 Geo Tracker
>
>
> Motor:
>
> Advanced DC, FB1-4001A, 19HP, 9.1"D, double shaft
>
>
> Drivetrain:
>
> 5 Speed Manual Transmission Clutchless
>
>
> Controller:
>
> Curtis 1231C-8601, 96-144VDC, 500A
>
>
> Batteries:
>
> 10 x 12 volts , 8 rear, 2 front
>
>
> System Voltage:
>
> 120 Volts
>
>
> Charger:
>
> a) K&W BC-20 120V 30Amp on-board with LB-20 Line Booster
>
>
> Heater:
>
> 120 VDC
>
>
> DC/DC Converter:
>
> Vicor120V Max Input
>
>
> Instrumentation:
>
> a) Curtis LED BAR State of Charge Meter
> b) 0-400Amp Meter
>
> c) -150-+150 volt meter
>
> d) vacuum gage
>
>
> Power Steering
>
> Power steering in run off the second motor shaft
>
>
> Power brakes
>
> The vacuum pump for the power brakes is run off the 12 volt battery
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is the legal stuff, terms and conditions that others
> post. So I should post them too.
>
> * A test drive is available to anyone who can make it to
> Springfield
> Illinois. No warranty is expressed nor implied. Vehicle is
> sold AS-IS, no returns or exchange.
> * Winning bidder must contact the seller within 48 hours.
> * 10% non-refundable deposit due within 4 calendar days
> via Express
> Mail.
> * Full payment must be made in cash, wire transfer, money order or
> cashier's check within 10 calendar days of auction close. If
> payment is not received within the alloted time or no
> communication or other arrangements"
> are made, the 10% deposit will be forfeited and vehicle will
> be sold to the next higher bidder at the winning price or
> relisted at my discretion.
> * A Bill of Sale, clear title will be issued and vehicle will be
> released when funds are transferred or when the check clears.
> * Buyer is responsible to arrange for pickup and for all shipping
> charges, FOB Springfield Illinois. I will help the trucker
> on pick-up day.
> I also suggest getting a good transport company if you are
> shipping the car.
>
> * Vehicle must be picked up within 14 business days of
> auction close.
> If an extension is required, storage fees may apply.
>
> GOOD LUCK! DUMP THE PUMP!! GO EVING!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm.... not sure where you got the 4100 lb weight for the Gen1 Prius,
but my quick web search comes up with more like 2760 lb.
cheers,
Andrew
Bob Bath wrote:
Like everything else, "it depends". If you're going
to replace the NiMH batts. with lead, then you've got
a heavy glider to do it with. The original Prius was
4300 lbs. I'll grant it will go down w/o ICE, and w/
the Nickel batts. removed, but still...
Do you want cargo space? The Ni are behind the
rear seat. So have you checked out the amount of
space for lead?
If you retain the Nickel MH, be aware that they are
a special NiMH designed for shall0w/cycle, not deep
cycle. Do you have access to a battery management
system that will keep them healthy?
It's of course very aerodynamic, but is your goal
range, or speed?
Are you going to retain the transmission? It's a CVT
with additional complexities because of an
interplanetary gearing or somesuch. How do you intend
to work around that issue?
These are just a few points to start with...
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,
I have a 2001 Prius that has had a total engine
failure at 80,000 Miles. The
body is in good shape. Seems like an ideal EV
conversion candidate!
Has anybody ever converted a Prius?
So now I'm trying to decide if I should have it
fixed, or convert it to a
complete EV. If I do convert it and use it as a
replacement for
its original mission, I'll need at least 120 mile
range and overnight recharge.
Is this doable? I would like to spend less then
$15000 on the conversion if
possible.
Or I could forget my pipe dream, sell this guy and
buy a $2K gas car. But that
would be such a bummer. :(
What should I do?!
Thanks!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will work well if done right.
You will need to separate both for charging and connect
together for driving. When separated, trickle charge ultracaps.
See my setup:
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/battery.htm
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm
Victor
Peter Perkins wrote:
Dear group members
What are the issues with this.
I have 30x200ah TS cells.
I was thinking of building up a supercapacitor bank and putting it in
parallel with cells.
I am happy about the inter cell and inter capacitor balancing issues, but
what about the two packs working together?
I realise I would only be using a fraction of the capcitors capacity by
mirroring the TS cells, but would it help with heavy loads and regen?
Comments.
Regards Peter
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Prius Conversion?
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 22:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Like everything else, "it depends". If you're going
to replace the NiMH batts. with lead, then you've got
a heavy glider to do it with. The original Prius was
4300 lbs. I'll grant it will go down w/o ICE, and w/
the Nickel batts. removed, but still...
Where did you get 4300 lbs? Is that the gross vehicle weight?
The original Prius curb weight ( according to Cars/com) was 2765 lbs.
That is about what I would expect, since it was a slightly stretched Echo (
curb wt 2050) with the same ICE block, but extra weight for the motor,
batteres, etc.
My Echo was down to 1575 lbs with all ICE equipment removed, so I would
guess a stripped Prius would be about 1700 or so. If the Prius classic
max gross weight was 4300, you could put in a LOT of battery weight before
exceeding the max gross.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The way you describe it, it sounds like bad programming.
I can make my inverter behave exactly the same
(sudden loss of regen when the battery get to "full"
theshold), but I can also gradually reduce regen
as the battery approach full, with programmable headroom.
Is your own civic behaves like that, or all civics do?
Talk to Honda service, test drive new one and compare.
May be they can reprogram your controller.
Victor
Chuck Hays wrote:
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Provided you have traditional non-regen pad brakes combined with regen,
the obvious solution is to simply disable the regen, but this may
produce changes in braking behaviour at unpredictable times.
Man, that's the one thing I really hate about the
Civic Hybrid (I'd hate it about any other vehicle,
but I *drive* a Civic). Yer goin' down a long hill,
regen pumpin' up the battery pack you drained
to get over the hump. That sucker hits "Full"
and *bam!* it's like somebody mashed the go-
pedal -- no regen braking and all of a sudden the
car in front of you is getting bigger fast. So then
I'm on the mechanical brakes all the rest of the
way.
I've wished many times for a nice resistive load
in a ducted enclosure under the car, where the
regen could dump excess coulombs. I realise in
the best of worlds the car is an urban vehicle,
and theoretically it'd always be somewhere
between full charge and dead empty and so it
wouldn't be a "problem."
The one thing that can catch you by surprise
is when you're coming up to a stop. Our car is
a manual trans -- hitting the brakes lightly with
the clutch engaged kicks in full regen, which is
a pretty substantial braking force. Once you've
slowed down, though, the regen kicks off and
there you are, coasting along with the mechanical
brakes essentially not engaged yet. If you know
it's coming it's no big deal, but the first time your
reaction is to suddenly jam on the brakes, with
interesting results.
The thing decelerates like it has a 7.3 litre diesel
under the hood until the regen goes off, then
it's just a regular little car.
Chuck
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi I am a newbie. I can't get the archives to show up (mozilla issue?) so
excuse me if I repeat. I am just going to jump right in.
If you have a Prius to convert to all electric, isn't that what the Prius+
project is all about? (http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html) Plus there
are lot of Prius engines that I have seen come up on E-bay. They are going
for fairly cheap. I just saw a whole 2003 drive train go for a little more
than $600
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-Toyota-Prius-Hybrid-Drive-Train_W0QQcmdZ
ViewItemQQcategoryZ6783QQitemZ7990291267QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
-- Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Clevenger
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Prius Conversion?
Hi Nick,
Without the hybrid wizardry, the 2001 Prius is essentially an Echo.
I think
your goal would be unrealistic with lead-acid in that car unless you
really
loaded it down with lead, and it's unknown if the car could handle
the weight.
I think the only way to get enough lead-acid to go 120 miles would be to
use a pickup chassis. Even then, you wouldn't get many 120 mile
cycles at
that discharge level.
Tim
On Aug 8, 2005, at 3:00 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: August 5, 2005 5:29:53 PM PDT
> To: EVList <[email protected]>
> Subject: Prius Conversion?
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have a 2001 Prius that has had a total engine failure at 80,000
> Miles. The
> body is in good shape. Seems like an ideal EV conversion candidate!
>
> Has anybody ever converted a Prius?
>
> So now I'm trying to decide if I should have it fixed, or convert
> it to a
> complete EV. If I do convert it and use it as a replacement for
> its original mission, I'll need at least 120 mile range and
> overnight recharge.
>
> Is this doable? I would like to spend less then $15000 on the
> conversion if
> possible.
>
> Or I could forget my pipe dream, sell this guy and buy a $2K gas
> car. But that
> would be such a bummer. :(
>
> What should I do?!
>
> Thanks!
>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 01:11:08PM -0400, Philip Marino wrote:
<..snip..>
> My Echo was down to 1575 lbs with all ICE equipment removed, so I would
> guess a stripped Prius would be about 1700 or so.
You've done an Echo conversion? Did it work out?
Did the Echo have electric power steering?
Do you have pictures?
Thnks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, the Prius+ project is about beefing up Prius' battery and making it
a plug-in hybrid thus extending EV only range. All original guts
ate still there, and work as before.
Victor
Brad Jensen wrote:
Hi I am a newbie. I can't get the archives to show up (mozilla issue?) so
excuse me if I repeat. I am just going to jump right in.
If you have a Prius to convert to all electric, isn't that what the Prius+
project is all about? (http://www.calcars.org/priusplus.html) Plus there
are lot of Prius engines that I have seen come up on E-bay. They are going
for fairly cheap. I just saw a whole 2003 drive train go for a little more
than $600
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2003-Toyota-Prius-Hybrid-Drive-Train_W0QQcmdZ
ViewItemQQcategoryZ6783QQitemZ7990291267QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
-- Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Clevenger
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Prius Conversion?
Hi Nick,
Without the hybrid wizardry, the 2001 Prius is essentially an Echo.
I think
your goal would be unrealistic with lead-acid in that car unless you
really
loaded it down with lead, and it's unknown if the car could handle
the weight.
I think the only way to get enough lead-acid to go 120 miles would be to
use a pickup chassis. Even then, you wouldn't get many 120 mile
cycles at
that discharge level.
Tim
On Aug 8, 2005, at 3:00 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 5, 2005 5:29:53 PM PDT
To: EVList <[email protected]>
Subject: Prius Conversion?
Hello,
I have a 2001 Prius that has had a total engine failure at 80,000
Miles. The
body is in good shape. Seems like an ideal EV conversion candidate!
Has anybody ever converted a Prius?
So now I'm trying to decide if I should have it fixed, or convert
it to a
complete EV. If I do convert it and use it as a replacement for
its original mission, I'll need at least 120 mile range and
overnight recharge.
Is this doable? I would like to spend less then $15000 on the
conversion if
possible.
Or I could forget my pipe dream, sell this guy and buy a $2K gas
car. But that
would be such a bummer. :(
What should I do?!
Thanks!
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You've done an Echo conversion? Did it work out?
>
> Did the Echo have electric power steering?
>
> Do you have pictures?
There are a few Echo conversions in the EV Album. Here is a link to one
done by Randy at Canadian Electric Vehicles:
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/598.html>
I notice that the description says the power steering is driven off the
traction motor, which I take to mean the Echo does not (did not?) come
with electric power steering.
Noteworthy about this conversion is that it is an automatic and that the
batteries are very cleanly installed such that it is only by looking
under the hood (or noticing the E-Meter in the dashboard) that one can
tell the car is electric. The rear seat is retained and even the trunk
remains fully stock.
My only complaint is the use of a Curtis 'C'-series controller. Since
the car has a automatic tranny, the Curtis is set up to idle the
traction motor and with a C-series Curtis this results in the annoying
whine Curtis has become known for whenever the key is on and the vehicle
is stationary.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Snippage and comments interspersed.
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Any 700 battery amp accelerations, and with a lead foot, I
> may as well cut that range in half. Or if I have some fun,
> maybe hitting 120+ mph a few times for short spurts, perhaps
> 20-30 miles range. Balls to the walls 140 mph or so kept
> constant? Maybe 5 miles or so if that, even if my simulation
> says 13 miles at that speed. This is all theory, of course.
> I don't know of any EV that has ever seen sustained speeds
> like that and actually had its range at those speeds
> measured, but it's still interesting to simulate. Maybe one
> day I'll find out.
>
> Roderick Wilde made a Ford Taurus EV which was street legal
> and could hit over 130 mph. Maybe he could share some info?
That car is Silent Thunder. It had 4 eight inch motors and 28
Optimas. It was lightened and had an air dam. I forget what the owner
said exactly, but think he thought the batteries were less than 1/2
way discharged after a run. The car officially ran 133 mph. It was
classed as a lightweight streamliner -- unfortunately there is not an
official class for conversion cars.
I'd guess your high speed range estimates are a bit optimistic, for
my sims I get a mile or two of range, and then the car coasts for the
rest of the distance.
> David Dymaxion is currently building a 150+ mph electric
> Porsche 911 to race on the Bonneville Salt Flats. That
> should be interesting.
You are too kind in calling it a 150+ car! I figure if a Taurus can
go 133 mph, a much smaller car should be able to equal that. My
biggest worry is will the motor be up to ~700 or 800 amps for about
45 to 90 seconds -- I'm planning to cool it with ice and chilled air.
Per my sims and comparison to other cars I think the 130 club is
doable, and the 150 club for a mile is at the edge of capability, but
it could briefly exceed 150. I gotta finish building it and put the
numbers to the test!
> Not having Salt Flats where I live, I'm probably dumb enough
> to try that on a highway when no traffic(or cops) are
> around. Who knows. Maybe I'll get such an endeavor on tape.
> EVs have never really been the fetish object of speed hungry
> kids seeking to satiate their egos, so maybe I'll prove that
> they can do such and get all the tuners riled up.
Please do it in a safe controlled environment!
I lost the quote, but you mentioned using a fiberglass transmission
tunnel. The car might use that structure as a "torque tube" between
the front motor and rear axle. If you weaken that, a roll cage would
need to replace the missing strength.
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Wow! Those caps are amazing!
Those caps may no longer be available, but that might be because they
have much better stuff now:
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/large_cell.html
That 2.7kF 2.7v cap is a 166mm x 57mm cylinder pkg, 470g, 0.40 mOhm.
That one's not currently up for online sale. The smaller 350F one is,
it's expensive, but supposedly they're aiming to get the price way way down.
Regarding the 2700F cap:
"At the same time, the cell continues the company's efforts to reduce
ultracapacitor cost, which is the critical barrier to ultracapitor use
in many potential applications. The new cell is being introduced at $27
per unit in annual volumes of one million cells, which translates to
roughly a penny per Farad. Maxwell Technologies plans to cut this cost
in half within five years."
Well if you wanted 160 ultracaps in series that would be $2160 at their
predicted volume price. Not like we'd ever see the volume price
though. But also that would be 432v, which is a pretty high voltage
system. Using only enough cells to meet your max system voltage is not
only cheaper but the capacitance and thus the current delivery endurance
would be higher.
The problem with caps is their current capacity is evenly distributed
over 0v to full charge voltage. If you want voltage to be delivered
from 200v to 180v you've only got a fraction of the cap's capacity
available. Somehow seems a shame to me.
There is potentially a better configuration where caps are charged as a
few parallel strings (each capable of the full system voltage) and as
the voltage drops below a useful level they can be rearranged into a
series stack to boost their voltage allowing more of their charge to be
used. Lots of high current switches and separate caps involved here though.
Let's see- at 16F for a series stack at 75A would see its voltage
decrease at 4.7v/sec which seems useful for a high voltage system.
Actually, that's not so bad but it can't really be put in parallel with
the battery because the battery's got a mostly fixed voltage. This
would mean more high current switching elements.
I could see it make sense. On regen, the main battery disconnects and
the caps are engaged. Once the caps reach max voltage it switches back
to charging the battery, if the battery is full it needs to switch to
dissipation mode.
Caps have such a crazy high cycle efficiency, it makes sense.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
It will work well if done right.
You will need to separate both for charging and connect
together for driving. When separated, trickle charge ultracaps.
See my setup:
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/battery.htm
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/ultracaps.htm
Victor
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Danny Miller wrote:
>Let's see- at 16F for a series stack at 75A would see its voltage decrease
>at 4.7v/sec which seems useful for a high voltage system.
>Actually, that's not so bad but it can't really be put in parallel with the
>battery because the battery's got a mostly fixed voltage. This would mean
>more high current switching elements.
I'm sure it's more complicated than this so folks here on the EVDL can tell
me why this wouldn't work, but I've often wondered if it would be possible
to build a simple controller using your battery pack, a series string of
capacitors, a voltage comparator and either a contactor or a MOSFET.
Using the resistance of the potbox, the comparator would try to keep the
voltage of the capacitor string within some small voltage range. If the
capacitor voltage fell below the bottom of the range, the contactor/MOSFET
would close momentarily for a high pulse of energy from the battery pack,
bringing the capacitors up to the top of the range.
I don't know how unsmooth this would make the ride, and you'd certainly need
batteries that could handle quick high-current pulses.
If you suddenly took your foot off the pedal completely, this could close a
microswitch which redirected the energy in the capacitors to charge your 12V
accessory battery, either directly or by turning an alternator.
Well, go ahead and shoot holes in it. Thanks in advance.
Bill Dennis
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Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.futureenergies.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&;
sid=212
Cedric is a very inventive guy. While his ebike is rather cobby looking, it
is undeniably quite an elegant vehicle. I was particularly interested in
the caption for the second-to-last photo, "... twisting the throttle in the
reverse direction gives regeneration."
This is an idea I had as well. It wasn't like a lightning bolt of
creativity or anything. It seems such a perfectly natural thing to do with
an electric drive system and should be very easy to implement. I even
suggested it on this list for use with an accelerator pedal on an electric
car. So I was very peeved when I saw Vectrix making a big freakin' deal
about their patent for it, insisting only they can use it.
Maybe it's just me, but I really get my shorts in a knot when someone
patents something so intuitively obvious. My guess is that Cedric (maybe
others) did this way before Vectrix. If anything was published about
Cedric's bike that shows this concept before Vectrix patented it, the patent
is invalid.
Can anyone point to a prior disclosure?
Chris
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What, just to replace the controller?
No, that makes no sense electrically for many different reasons. PWM
works extremely well on inductive loads like the motor and is quite
simple and its effectiveness is close to ideal.
The caps come into play because they've got such a high cycle efficiency
and can be charged and discharged at ridiculously high rates. This
makes them potentially quite useful as a regen reservoir.
One thought I had was the controller can always lower the voltage
through PWM, but can't realistically raise it, though it can adjust the
field coil on the motor. To tell the truth I'm rusty on how that field
coil interacts with the motor in terms of current, voltage, and speed.
Anyways, one thought here is if you have a 144v battery but build a cap
string that goes up to 200v and have a controller that handles up to
200v, during braking the motor is hooked up only to the caps and the
field coil might be adjusted to charge the caps up to 200v. Then the
controller can get at least the performance of the 144v battery entirely
from the caps over a 56v discharge.
Whether such an "overcharge" strategy is used or not, the caps can
actually be drained below 144v if the duty cycle needed to meet the
pedal's demand remains below 100%. For example if the pedal is only
pressed so that the PWM would put out 75% of a 144v source, the caps can
deliver the same result down to 108v. And note all the power need not
be delivered just for the acceleration! Assuming he lets off the pedal
30 sec later to 25%, the motor can then switch off the battery and run
entirely off the cap bank until it discharges down to 36v.
The key here is to make the most of a bank, you want to discharge it as
deeply as possible to maximize its usefulness. It will then have more
capacity available to efficiently absorb as much as possible of the next
braking cycle. Remember the cap bank is not harmed by deep discharge in
any way whatsoever.
Here's another concept. A DC/DC boost converter can potentially supply
some of the current needed for driving off the cap bank down to 0v.
These are not 100% efficient however, and making one capable of
supplying 75 amps would be quite huge. Rather, I can picture one
supplementing the cruising current with perhaps 10 amps that don't need
to come from the battery. That would perhaps be half the volume of a
shoebox or so. We do not want to use it to charge the battery because
something like 10%-30% of the energy is lost in that process. The
converter would be at best 90%+ efficient, though 85% might be more
realistic. So then it's a matter of a mathematical evaluation- how much
is efficiency is gained by using the boost converter to increase the
effective capacity of the caps versus just dumping the extra regen power
into the batteries to begin with? Or would getting a bigger cap bank be
more cost/efficiency effective?
Well, the controller becomes quite a bit more complicated. The allure
of being able to store power in a 99% efficient reservoir is quite
powerful though.
Danny
Bill Dennis wrote:
I'm sure it's more complicated than this so folks here on the EVDL can tell
me why this wouldn't work, but I've often wondered if it would be possible
to build a simple controller using your battery pack, a series string of
capacitors, a voltage comparator and either a contactor or a MOSFET.
Using the resistance of the potbox, the comparator would try to keep the
voltage of the capacitor string within some small voltage range. If the
capacitor voltage fell below the bottom of the range, the contactor/MOSFET
would close momentarily for a high pulse of energy from the battery pack,
bringing the capacitors up to the top of the range.
I don't know how unsmooth this would make the ride, and you'd certainly need
batteries that could handle quick high-current pulses.
If you suddenly took your foot off the pedal completely, this could close a
microswitch which redirected the energy in the capacitors to charge your 12V
accessory battery, either directly or by turning an alternator.
Well, go ahead and shoot holes in it. Thanks in advance.
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Here's another concept. A DC/DC boost converter can potentially supply
some of the current needed for driving off the cap bank down to 0v.
These are not 100% efficient however, and making one capable of
supplying 75 amps would be quite huge.
BDC412:
150A bi-directional buck/boost converter has been made for quite a while
specifically for that purpose; Efficiency - 97%...99%. (Darn close
to 100%) http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_bdc412347.htm
Well, the controller becomes quite a bit more complicated. The allure
of being able to store power in a 99% efficient reservoir is quite
powerful though.
Danny
The caps are about 100 efficient; the converter can be
about 98% efficient as well. Granted you pay for these
uncompromized parameters of the converter, so it is not
the thing for projects where the cost is priority one.
I just wanted to mention they do exist and available.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Wow, that's a nice one. Gotta be pricey too. And they water-cooled it?
I wonder if they've been doing any kind of fudging here. These numbers
look too good to be true, but technology can surprise you.
That could even replace your motor controller. Apparently that puts out
DC too, I'm not totally sure what that would mean for a motor but I
think it would help a lot. Just looking at the DC resistances in the
motor and interconnects for example, say there's 10mOhms in the system.
If you put 50 amps through it at 100% duty you dissipate 25 watts, if
you put 100 amps at 50% into it the system dissipates 100 watts while ON
for a total average dissipation of 50 watts. These are however
equivalent power settings.
And it's bidirectional, so it could handle regen, charge caps,
whatever. The only caveat is the source voltage has to be over 100v
apparently.
Sweet- but I bet it cost a bundle. Maybe one will show up on eBay.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
BDC412:
150A bi-directional buck/boost converter has been made for quite a while
specifically for that purpose; Efficiency - 97%...99%. (Darn close
to 100%) http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_bdc412347.htm
The caps are about 100 efficient; the converter can be
about 98% efficient as well. Granted you pay for these
uncompromized parameters of the converter, so it is not
the thing for projects where the cost is priority one.
I just wanted to mention they do exist and available.
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Danny Miller wrote:
Wow, that's a nice one. Gotta be pricey too. And they water-cooled it?
You can see fittings right above power connectors. But, there is not
that much to cool - at 98% average efficiency with 100V 100A (10kW)
output 2% losses are only 200W.
I wonder if they've been doing any kind of fudging here. These numbers
look too good to be true, but technology can surprise you.
This is not China and BRUSA normally deliver more than conservative
advertisement - been proven. For instance my 3.3KW rated NLG513-WA
charger delivers 3.6kW - almost 10% more. For any decent company not to
meet published spec is unthinkable.
That could even replace your motor controller. Apparently that puts out
DC too,
It puts out *only* DC (it is dc-dc converter, not DC-AC inverter).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Any idea on the price? Most of their stuff has price listed, not this
monster.
-Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 1:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Super Capacitors and Li-Ion pack in parallel
Danny Miller wrote:
> Wow, that's a nice one. Gotta be pricey too. And they water-cooled
it?
You can see fittings right above power connectors. But, there is not
that much to cool - at 98% average efficiency with 100V 100A (10kW)
output 2% losses are only 200W.
> I wonder if they've been doing any kind of fudging here. These
numbers
> look too good to be true, but technology can surprise you.
This is not China and BRUSA normally deliver more than conservative
advertisement - been proven. For instance my 3.3KW rated NLG513-WA
charger delivers 3.6kW - almost 10% more. For any decent company not to
meet published spec is unthinkable.
> That could even replace your motor controller. Apparently that puts
out
> DC too,
It puts out *only* DC (it is dc-dc converter, not DC-AC inverter).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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