EV Digest 4565
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zebra Batteries - Update
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) No More A/C motor problems... Yee Haw!!
by "Jeff Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AGM Batteries @low cost
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Thunder-Sky Straps
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: AGM Batteries @low cost
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Enthusiastic newby looking for good advice
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AGM Batteries @low cost
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Meter Questions --> Results
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: No More A/C motor problems... Congrat's
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: AGM Batteries @low cost
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: John's GT-6
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: No More A/C motor problems... Yee Haw!!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Enthusiastic newby looking for good advice
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Enthusiastic newby looking for good advice
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Enthusiastic newby looking for good advice
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Enthusiastic newby looking for good advice
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: No More A/C motor problems... Yee Haw!!
by "Jeff Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Personal Interest (now with more hybrid truck talk!)
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: E-Meter Questions --> Results
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just thinking out of the box here. The problem seems to be in keeping
them at their operating temp of 270C and need 14% of its energy to do this.
Why not have a small propane system to keep the batteries hot? Energy
density in propane, when you only need simple heat energy, is far far
greater than batteries and the cost of the capacity is so much lower.
Danny
Don Cameron wrote:
Google "Zebra Battery" will tell all...
http://www.mpoweruk.com/zebra.htm
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ITS ALIVE! ITS ALIVE! IT LIVES!!!!
Finally!!!
OK, first off let me thank my sponsors... Victor Tikhonov, Jim Husted, David
Roden, and anyone else out there that I may have missed... for all your
help!
I started off the evening playing with the phase wires that many suggested I
do. After switching them several different ways, all I could get was
backward! It ran well backward too. Let me tell you, it was smooth as a
baby's backside and quiet as a mouse... well almost. But it was backwards!
I finally decided to take off the cover plate from the controllers and the
motors to see exactly how this thing was wired. You may remember I said
that the wires had single Anderson type connectors in red, white and blue...
so patriotic. :-) Anyway, when I looked at the way they were wired I
immediately figured out the problem... problems. The wire connections are
listed as R, S and T. I started following wires and realized that none of
them were connected properly. Who ever put the colors together didn't put
them in right. So, I hooked them up in order but the motors shuddered
again. Now, the manual for the AMC 300 series controllers says that if the
motors don't run smoothly, then switch the R and S wires and if it then runs
smoothly but backward change the phase direction switch (or something like
that). After several attempts, IT WORKED!!!
Now two most interesting things happened after that. When the motors were
not running right and I initially got them running backward, the speedometer
was working just fine. Now, however, when I switch the key on the
speedometer jumps up to 20mph and just sits there. It doesn't matter if I'm
in forward or reverse, it just sits there at 20mph. The other interesting
thing is that the odometer works just fine. Hmmmm.
Anyone out there with an E-10 or anyone that can help with this little
dilemma, please chime in here.
I want to again thank everyone for your help. I'm so glad it works now (so
is my wife).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I just found some for sale on ebay. The exact ones for $225.00 each. If
anybody out there is interested, they are available in Santa Maria, CA. They
have about 200 of them available. I'll find out if they come with factory
warranty, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Apollonio<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: AGM Batteries @low cost
whaaa? That's too good to be true...or at least too good to be good,
if you take my meaning.
I've never heard of Marathon batteries before, but $45 for 155Ahr @ 12V
is insanely cheap. By comparison, a 6V Trojan GC battery at 225Ah is
something like $70, and the Orbital/Optima 55Ah 12V AGM's are typically
around $125.
So if the batteries are any good, then yes, it's a good deal. In fact,
I want some, I think. Otherwise, someone's playing nasty tricks on
vulnerable, ignorant consumers.
-Ben
On Aug 9, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Gabriel Alarcon wrote:
> Can anybody tell me if $45.00 for a Marathon M12V155FT battery is a
> good deal? They are 12v, 155ahr AGM batteries and they are going
> for $45.00 ea @ 10+qty, brand new. They were going into a cell site
> but they cancelled the project.
>
> Gabe
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/5/05, Bill Dennis wrote:
> When I received my TS cells, the endplates came with long all-threads
> holding them together. But I've noticed that other people have received
> plates held together with metal straps. I think I'd like to switch to the
> straps. Are they just something that I can pick up at a hardware store? Is
> there anything special I need to ask for?
Would these work?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92515
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=92516
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this the Exide battery?
http://networkpower.exide.com/products/product_detail.asp?part_number=NA
MF120155VM0FA&range=M_FT&lng=en
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gabriel Alarcon
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM Batteries @low cost
Yeah, I just found some for sale on ebay. The exact ones for $225.00
each. If anybody out there is interested, they are available in Santa
Maria, CA. They have about 200 of them available. I'll find out if
they come with factory warranty, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Apollonio<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: AGM Batteries @low cost
whaaa? That's too good to be true...or at least too good to be good,
if you take my meaning.
I've never heard of Marathon batteries before, but $45 for 155Ahr @
12V
is insanely cheap. By comparison, a 6V Trojan GC battery at 225Ah is
something like $70, and the Orbital/Optima 55Ah 12V AGM's are
typically
around $125.
So if the batteries are any good, then yes, it's a good deal. In
fact,
I want some, I think. Otherwise, someone's playing nasty tricks on
vulnerable, ignorant consumers.
-Ben
On Aug 9, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Gabriel Alarcon wrote:
> Can anybody tell me if $45.00 for a Marathon M12V155FT battery is a
> good deal? They are 12v, 155ahr AGM batteries and they are going
> for $45.00 ea @ 10+qty, brand new. They were going into a cell site
> but they cancelled the project.
>
> Gabe
>
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged
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recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep in mind that an combustion '92 Civvy is worth
2700. Mine, loaded with batts, charger, controller,
etc. is worth $9K. I drive mine only at a normal,
sane way, because I have it on a stated value
insurance policy. If it gets totaled, I walk off with
8500. Hence, performance is only likely to get me in
trouble.... (;-p
--- Chip Sandy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> First, I'd like to thank all who responded. Now let
> me answer a few of your
> questions. I don't necessarily need a 7-8 sec 0-60
> time but I want good off
> the line acceleration. I could handle it being as
> slow as my current car. (a
> '98 sunfire 2.2 w/5spd) but would like it to be at
> least a little bit
> quicker. Range is my biggest concern, but I do
> enjoy a semi sporty drive
> and just don't feel I could enjoy driving a car with
> no pick up. Another
> thing to keep in mind is that a vast majority of NJ
> drivers are quite
> aggressive and tend to take advantage of slower
> cars. I am constantly cut
> off by people who drive faster cars than me simply
> because I just can't keep
> up. This, to me, is dangerous and very agravating as
> well, so I need a car
> that can keep up in stop and go traffic as well as
> at highway speeds. 0-60
> in 15-20 seconds (or more) just isn't feasable in my
> area. Now that my
> motivations are, perhaps, a bit more clear, anything
> on my other Q's?
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They appear to be exides...can't be all bad. After all, they made the
batteries for the very first EVs!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: AGM Batteries @low cost
whaaa? That's too good to be true...or at least too good to be good, if
you take my meaning.
I've never heard of Marathon batteries before, but $45 for 155Ahr @ 12V is
insanely cheap. By comparison, a 6V Trojan GC battery at 225Ah is
something like $70, and the Orbital/Optima 55Ah 12V AGM's are typically
around $125.
So if the batteries are any good, then yes, it's a good deal. In fact, I
want some, I think. Otherwise, someone's playing nasty tricks on
vulnerable, ignorant consumers.
-Ben
On Aug 9, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Gabriel Alarcon wrote:
Can anybody tell me if $45.00 for a Marathon M12V155FT battery is a good
deal? They are 12v, 155ahr AGM batteries and they are going for $45.00
ea @ 10+qty, brand new. They were going into a cell site but they
cancelled the project.
Gabe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm happy to report that I had no trouble getting my E-meter working
today. The only thing I need to do now is get an isolated DC/DC for it.
Today I powered it from one of the 12-volt Ni-Cad batteries my cordless
drill uses... definitely not a solution but it worked for now.
I was playing with the settings on the E-meter and have some questions:
1) Trojan T-875s are supposed to be 170AH, but the E-meter only lets me
set Amp-Hour capacity in increments of 20. So, is it better to set the
E-meter to 160AH or 180AH ?
2) I haven't changed the Peukert exponent setting. Anyone know the
Peukert value for T-875s? I think I remember it being 1.3 or something
like that?
I guess that's it for now. I did get a chance to fully charge my Jeep,
reset the E-meter to 0 AH/kWh, then take a short trip this evening to
watch it work. I turned function F04 "on" so the meter would read kWh
instead of AH. After driving the 2.4 miles, the E-meter read -0.99 kWh.
That would indicate my efficiency was 412.5 watt-hours per mile which,
if accurate, indicates to me that my Jeep's efficiency has improved
quite a bit...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congrats! And your wife was giving you all those nasty looks, shame on her for
doubting.
Good luck with the rest of the project.
Jim
Jeff Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ITS ALIVE! ITS ALIVE! IT LIVES!!!!
Finally!!!
OK, first off let me thank my sponsors... Victor Tikhonov, Jim Husted, David
Roden, and anyone else out there that I may have missed... for all your
help!
I started off the evening playing with the phase wires that many suggested I
do. After switching them several different ways, all I could get was
backward! It ran well backward too. Let me tell you, it was smooth as a
baby's backside and quiet as a mouse... well almost. But it was backwards!
I finally decided to take off the cover plate from the controllers and the
motors to see exactly how this thing was wired. You may remember I said
that the wires had single Anderson type connectors in red, white and blue...
so patriotic. :-) Anyway, when I looked at the way they were wired I
immediately figured out the problem... problems. The wire connections are
listed as R, S and T. I started following wires and realized that none of
them were connected properly. Who ever put the colors together didn't put
them in right. So, I hooked them up in order but the motors shuddered
again. Now, the manual for the AMC 300 series controllers says that if the
motors don't run smoothly, then switch the R and S wires and if it then runs
smoothly but backward change the phase direction switch (or something like
that). After several attempts, IT WORKED!!!
Now two most interesting things happened after that. When the motors were
not running right and I initially got them running backward, the speedometer
was working just fine. Now, however, when I switch the key on the
speedometer jumps up to 20mph and just sits there. It doesn't matter if I'm
in forward or reverse, it just sits there at 20mph. The other interesting
thing is that the odometer works just fine. Hmmmm.
Anyone out there with an E-10 or anyone that can help with this little
dilemma, please chime in here.
I want to again thank everyone for your help. I'm so glad it works now (so
is my wife).
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, the price is good, and the brand could be excellent also, but my
question is- what are they designed for? Back-up batteries for a Cell
installation could be different from a deep cycle design. This is where I
turn it back to you folks who are now doing the detective work on these
specific units.
-----Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ben Apollonio
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM Batteries @low cost
whaaa? That's too good to be true...or at least too good to be good,
if you take my meaning.
I've never heard of Marathon batteries before, but $45 for 155Ahr @ 12V
is insanely cheap. By comparison, a 6V Trojan GC battery at 225Ah is
something like $70, and the Orbital/Optima 55Ah 12V AGM's are typically
around $125.
So if the batteries are any good, then yes, it's a good deal. In fact,
I want some, I think. Otherwise, someone's playing nasty tricks on
vulnerable, ignorant consumers.
-Ben
On Aug 9, 2005, at 8:56 PM, Gabriel Alarcon wrote:
> Can anybody tell me if $45.00 for a Marathon M12V155FT battery is a
> good deal? They are 12v, 155ahr AGM batteries and they are going
> for $45.00 ea @ 10+qty, brand new. They were going into a cell site
> but they cancelled the project.
>
> Gabe
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
>That car is Silent Thunder. It had 4 eight inch motors
>and 28 Optimas. It was lightened and had an air dam. I
>forget what the owner said exactly, but think he
>thought the batteries were less than 1/2 way
>discharged after a run. The car officially ran 133
>mph. It was classed as a lightweight streamliner --
>unfortunately there is not an official class for
>conversion cars.
Four 8'' motors? It was probably sucking a steady 1,200 or
so amps from the battery pack(assuming it was a string of 28
Optimas) the entire time accelerating up to that speed!
Ouch. That'll cut range a bit.
I've tried to find more information on this car but have
been unsucessful. I've always wondered what its range was at
60 mph or so, how much it weighed, and what the drag
coefficient was lowered to. I've never seen pictures of this
car anywhere on the web, and believe me, I've looked
everywhere! I think this car may be a great example of speed
and range combined done right, but I've never been able to
find pictures or even specs other than its top speed. Wonder
what its 0-60 and 1/4 mile time was. I do know at one point
it held a NEDRA record from combing through the archives
from the late 90s, but I don't know what that record was.
>I'd guess your high speed range estimates are a bit
>optimistic, for my sims I get a mile or two of range,
>and then the car coasts for the rest of the distance.
Optimistic may not be the correct term. Flawed would be
better.
I will admit, my simulation did not count the energy
expended in getting the car up to its top speed at full
throttle. I have little doubt that just that alone could
easily consume more than 1/3 of what is stored in the
batteries. Maybe even all of it in the case of 150 mph. I
have yet to model a simulation that accounts for energy
consumed during acceleration up to speed, I've only modelled
acceleration times to various speeds given shift points
input into the sim and constant speed/constant surface range
per charge.
IIRC, Otmar's Porsche 914 to make a 1/4 mile run at full
throttle and 2,000 amps uses about 1/4 of the energy stored
in its battery pack! Mine will probably be a little better
off given more stored energy, less weight, and better aero.
>You are too kind in calling it a 150+ car! I figure if
>a Taurus can go 133 mph, a much smaller car should be
>able to equal that. My biggest worry is will the motor
>be up to ~700 or 800 amps for about 45 to 90 seconds
>-- I'm planning to cool it with ice and chilled air.
>Per my sims and comparison to other cars I think the
>130 club is doable, and the 150 club for a mile is at
>the edge of capability, but it could briefly exceed
>150. I gotta finish building it and put the numbers to
>the test!
Ahh, I figured it would be 150+ overall top speed, not
restricted to one mile of track to accelerate on.
I can't wait for you to either get a website going or put
your car on Austinev.org. Lord knows we could use more high
performance electric Porsches to dispell abundant EV myths!
>Please do it in a safe controlled environment!
The danger of the GT6/Spitfire adds to the allure. Some
idiot side impacts you going 30 and you're a goner!
I do intend to race it on Gateway International's racetrack,
but it may not have enough road to reach its top speed.
>I lost the quote, but you mentioned using a fiberglass
>transmission tunnel. The car might use that structure
>as a "torque tube" between the front motor and rear
>axle. If you weaken that, a roll cage would need to
>replace the missing strength.
Thanks for the advice. I'll have to look into it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Aug 2005 at 22:08, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> Now, however, when I switch the key on the speedometer
> jumps up to 20mph and just sits there.
I've never tinkered with an E10, but I'd expect them to use the speedo
output from the inverter. (My Force uses the original Metro speedo, driven
from the Solectria transaxle.) The speedo output drives pin 7 of the DB25
positive, with a voltage proportional to motor speed relative to ground (pin
1).
I have no idea what might cause it to read 20 mph all the time.
The odo output is a different critter; it outputs a pulse for each 100m on
pin 22, so it could easily work fine even if the speedo output somehow got
zorched.
If the inverter's speedo output is kaputt, one possibility would be to
switch the speedo connection to the other inverter. Be careful, and make
sure your speedo itself is OK before making the connection.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Aug 2005 at 18:46, Chip Sandy wrote:
> I am constantly cut off by people who drive
> faster cars than me simply because I just can't keep up.
This is a never-ending race, and part of the reason that vehicles get more
powerful and efficiency declines every year.
I refuse to take part. I drive vehicles that have enough power and
acceleration to suit my needs (which are pretty modest). If I'm going too
slow for the hurry-up guy behind me, and he wants to roar past and cut in
front of me, fine. No, I don't like the ones who cut in too close so I have
to take evasive action, but I'd rather do that dance while going slowly than
while driving too fast.
Many people who drive modest commuter EVs eventually come to agree with this
attitude. They learn to slow down and enjoy life more. But not all: to
each his own!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome, Chip. I'm currently doing my first conversion. It's
not like I have a family and kids, so a two seat sportscar
fit my needs perfectly. It will be much easier for you to
accomplish your goals in something of that sort, as sports
cars like a Porsche 914 or Fiat X1/9 will have much better
overall aerodynamics than a midsize car or a pickup, and are
light enough to make going fast cost less money. A heavier
car will need more power to accelerate fast.
You've outlined your goals perfectly well.
Now you need to ask:
-How many people will this car need to be able to seat?
-How much trunk space do I need?
-How much am I willing to spend?
-Am I willing to alter the appearance of the car to increase
aerodynamic efficiency and thus range?
Next, scrutinize what I say. Im still doing my first
conversion. A common saying: The advice you get is worth
what you pay for it. Im a newbie myself. Even with that,
Im going to try to give you the best advice I can.
Chip Sandy wrote:
>As stated above, I am doing some research into EV's
>mainly because I am trying to determine the
>feasability (for me personally) of owning one over a
>gas car. I live in NJ were the climate varies greatly
>throughout the year and am concerned with such issues
>as driving in snow as well as high heat & humidity.
So long as you are using lead acid batteries, the upper
limit for range will be about 100-120 miles per charge at
highway speeds in a very aerodynamic EV with half its weight
in batteries in good weather conditions. Such a car could be
quite fast, but may only seat comfortably two people(eg. AC
Propulsion TZero w/lead acid batteries, GM Impact). Pickups
loaded with 3,000 pounds of batteries can also achieve this
range figure, but at a big sacrifice to performance('Red
Beastie' which is a converted Toyota Xtracab, ect.).
Further, these ranges are to full battery discharge. It is
recommended that you don't discharge your batteries more
than 80%. 80% of your maximum range is your usable range,
and that's the statistic that matters. The common figure
this percentage is expressed as is depth of discharge(DoD
for short).
Winter weather will cut your usable range in half from what
you'd normally have in good weather. Using a battery heater
can counter act this effect somewhat, and with use of a
heater, you may get about 80-90% of your typical range in
good weather.
I leave out other battery chemistries on purpose. Lithium
ion batteries, Nickel Metal Hydride batteries, Nickel Zinc,
and others, could easily give you 150+ miles range at
highway speeds. However, for various reasons, these
batteries aren't produced in volume needed to be viable for
EVs and thus their price is prohibitively expensive. If you
want a pack of lithium ion batteries and are willing to pay
$30k+ for a hand-assembled battery pack, you could have 200+
miles range. Nickel Metal Hydride batteries for EVs aren't
available for reasons that could be called political(oil
company owns the patent), although ECD chairman Robert
Stemple presented a slide claiming that in volume for 20,000
cars a year, NiMH batteries could go for $150/kWh, or a 30
kWh pack for 150+ miles range would cost $4,500. Nickel Zinc
are simply unavailable due to financial difficulties of the
company that makes thebattery, and later designs of their
battery apparantly suffered serious flaws. John Pullen has a
set of Evertroll NiZn batteries in his electric Honda Accord
and they offered him 120 miles range. At one time, a NiZn
battery that offered nearly 1 kWh of storage was selling for
$250. Or $5k for a 100 mile range pack in a somewhat
efficient car. For whatever the reasons, even though these
chemistries are viable, with both their strengths and
weaknesses, we don't have them available to us for a price
that can be afforded by your common person.
>My other main concern is keeping up with relatively
>fast paced traffic, as I live in an area were you're
>likely to get run off the road at speeds lower than 70
>MPH. If I were to go the EV route, I would need
>something that could accelerate quickly (preferrably
>0-60 in 7-8 seconds) and be able to hit a top speed of
>75-80 MPH.
This is more than doable. There are people on this list
driving EVs that can make Dodge Vipers and Corvettes wimper
away with their tails between their legs.
Check the following topic I made on a messageboard if you
want to see just what EVs can do performance wise:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8987.html
Videos, images, and every claim made referenced pertaining
to EV performance. It should at least be entertaining to
look at. If anyone wants to comment on that forum, feel
free.
0-60 mph in 7-8 seconds would be doable with about an $8k
budget in a small car(if you do all your own work), but $8k
will not get you both this performance AND good range(Above
40 miles). The less weight, the less power and less money
you need to meet this goal.
In order to do 0-60 in 7-8 seconds in a small car will
necessitate sealed lead acid batteries if you use lead acid.
Flooded lead aid batteries simply won't provide you the
power to do this. You're going to want at least 80 kW of
power on tap(110 horsepower). Sealed lead acid batteries
need a charger that can maintain them and regulators,
otherwise their pack is more vulnerable and susceptible to
not lasting as long as it should.
80 mph top speed is no problem, even with flooded lead acid
batteries. Really, you could easily do 100+ mph with the
right parts.
>It would also have to make my 13 mile (one way) daily
>commute with some power to spare for lunch breaks and
>running errands after work. I mostly stay local, but
>every now and then make a trip to my hometown which is
>about 50 miles away, While I would more than likely
>keep my current gas car for these trips, I'd like
>to know if it's possible for an EV !
13 miles is pretty much possible with about 99% of on-road
EVs. 50 miles tends to be within the average range of the
figures you'll see for on road EVs, although they may not
get that range at 70 mph(more like 40-50 mph in good
weather).
If that trip is 50 miles away, you don't want that 50 miles
to discharge your batteries below 80%. So you're looking at
more like 65 miles max range. That is certainly doable at 50
mph with a good vehicle choice, but you'll only do it at 70
mph with a high amount of vehicle weight in batteries(at
least 40%) AND very careful attention paid to aerodynamics
in an inherently efficient vehicle. I leave out the pickup
truck option because having a 5,000 pound pickup with 2,500
pounds in batteries and poor aerodynamics will make 0-60 in
7-8 seconds a bit expensive, while a sports car that weighs
maybe 3,000 pounds post conversion and has 1,200 pounds in
batteries will be much more able to meet your goal for less
money with careful attention paid to aerodynamics.
There exist plenty of EVs that do at least a 60 mile range,
but those range figures aren't usually at 70 mph speeds.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
See that link above? Look around. Over 400 electric cars to
look at to get an idea of what is doable with lead acid
batteries as far as range and performance are concerned.
If you want both 0-60 < 8 seconds AND to make that 50 mile
trip at 70 mph, you're going to want something that is
light, aerodynamic, and has enough battery room to fit all
your batteries. Most any vehicle above 2,500 pounds as a gas
car you can cross off the list. Any car with an initial Cd*A
of > 7.0 you can cross off that list. You can cross off most
convertibles as well. To get this range, you're likely going
to need some extensive body modifications to cut the
coefficient of drag along with low rolling resistance tires.
Any front wheel drive cars arent recommended either,
since they will have trouble keeping traction in hard
accelerations and thus result in slower acceleration(0-60
mph in 9-10 seconds is doable with front wheel drive, but
you'll be smoking your tires getting there, clawing for
traction!).
You need lightweight and aerodynamic.
Depending on the car, you also may need to sacrifice trunk
space for battery room. To get 50 miles to 80% DoD at 70 mph
AND good performance is not easy, but doable(outside
conditions such as temperature, wind speed, and weather
permitting). Consequently, few conversions accomplish this
range at 70 mph speeds. A conversion that could do 50 miles
range at 70 mph to 80% DoD will do about 80 miles range at
50 mph to 80% DoD.
Personally, if I were you, wanted 0-60 in < 8 seconds, and
50 miles range without killing batteries(Or 60-65 miles
range total to full discharge), I'd look into the following
cars for conversion, all of them rear wheel drive:
-VW Karmen Ghia (1,786 pounds, seats 4, aerodynamic)
-Porsche 914 (1,985 pounds, 2205 pounds for 1975 model, lots
of battery room)
-Triumph GT6 (1,793 pounds, lots of internal combustion
related stuff to remove, aerodynamic)
-Datsun 1200 coupe/sedan (1,613 pounds, seats 4,
aerodynamic)
-Fiat 850 coupe (1,480 pounds, seats 4)
-VW Type 3 Fastback (2,000 pounds)
-MGB GT (2,505 pounds)
-Fiat X1/9 (2,375 pounds, convertible, but plenty of battery
room still)
-Opel GT (2,000 pounds)
-VW based kitcars(Sterling, Manta Montage, Aztec, Kelmark
GT, fiberfab Avenger, ect. Many are below 1,700 pounds)
I think your best choices would be either a VW Karmen Ghia
or a Datsun 1200. They both seat 4, have good battery room,
are very light, and very aerodynamic. Im doing a Triumph
GT6 myself, and I might get 100 miles range at 65 mph,
maybe, performance goal 0-60 mph in 6 seconds.
The following table lists the coefficient drag and frontal
areas of various vehicles:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041118043051/http://www.teknett.com/pwp/drmayf/tbls.htm
Look around. Enter the names of the cars into an image
search and see if you like the look.
With any of those small cars, you're looking at a 1,000
pound battery pack or more. At least.
Further, you will need to do every drag reduction in the
book to get that 50 miles range at 70 mph to 80% DoD. The
main types of drag you are concerned with, most important
listed first, are aerodynamic drag, rolling drag,
transmission drag, and brake/steering/alignment drag.
-Aerodynamic Drag: You will need to reduce aerodynamic drag
first and foremost. At 70 mph, this will eat up most of your
energy. The goal is to reduce drag by reducing turbulence.
This means you will want to look into a bellypan or a full
underbelly to cut underside projections, sealing the grille
of the car off, using more aerodynamic mirrors or remove the
passenger side mirror if doable, installing shaved door
handles, covering the rear wheel wells, taping up any and
all seams, installing side skirts, installing front air dam,
using a file to round off any square edges, and lowering the
car closer to the ground.
To get an idea of the significance of reducing aerodynamic
drag to improve efficiency, you may want to note Phil
Knoxs Toyota T100 pickup. He saw his fuel economy
increase 30% simply by reducing aerodynamic drag, at 70 mph
from 25 mpg to 32 mpg. No other form of drag was addressed.
You can read more about that in the following link:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870
-Rolling Drag: Rolling drag can be reduced by reducing both
the weight of the conversion and by using a more efficient
tire. For most simple estimates, rolling drag is
proportional to weight or your vehicle and coefficient of
rolling resistance of your tires. Youre going to want to
install low rolling resistance tires such as Invitica GLRs
or such. A typical tire has a coefficient of rolling
resistance of about .01, while a low rolling resistance tire
will have a coefficient of rolling resistance of .006 or
below. Switching to a low rolling resistance tire could have
more than a 20% impact on your range. Reducing weight
through using fiberglass parts or through heavily stripping
out the cars interior can also help. A few hundred pounds
of weight reduced could mean 5% more range, and greatly
increased acceleration performance.
-Transmission Drag: Not much you can do here, but using a
synthetic transmission oil may increase your efficiency
1-2%, and thus range by 1-2%.
-Misc. Drag- Cutting wheel bearing drag is as simple as
replacing your wheel bearings with lower friction bearings
or with a smaller bore. Other gains can be made by using
lighter wheels and by reducing vehicle weight, which will
cut down on the bearing load and lighter wheels and/or
wheels of smaller diameter will cut down on inertia losses.
Adjust your alignment to zero degrees camber to cut steering
drag. Machine your brake pistons to be perfectly round to
cut brake drag. All of these things combined could impact
your range by 5% or more.
Top of the line EVs like AC Propulsions TZero( or GMs
Impact make use of most or all of these drag reductions, and
thus achieve about 100 miles range at 70 mph off of a 1,200
pound pack of lead acid batteries. Few hobbyist conversions
have made use of ALL of these principals, but those that
have perform nicely.
Take for instance, Solar Bolt, an electric Fiat X1/9 built
by some high school kids. It achieved a 140 mile range on
flooded lead acid batteries. I do not know the speed at
which it achieved that range, but it was probably around 50
mph. This is but one example to aspire to, copy, and improve
upon to meet your goals. The car had 1,450 pounds of
batteries and weighed 2,900 pounds. HALF its weight in
batteries!
Read about the car Solar Bolt here:
http://www.foveal.com/ATdS_Report_2000.html#Report43
Images of the car here:
http://images.google.com/images?q="Solar
Bolt"&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wi
Would it use the same weight of sealed lead acid batteries
and a high voltage 1,000 amp Zilla controller? It would have
no problem doing 0-60 mph in 8 seconds while maintaining
that 140 miles range at the speed it achieved it. Cost would
probably be about $12-15k or so. Depending on gearing, top
speed could be in excess of 120 mph.
Another car to aspire to is John Bryans electric Kharmen
Ghia. His car was very efficient, and only consumed 100
wh/mile in mixed city and highway driving. He could do 45
miles per charge at 60 mph speeds or so, with a 700 pound
pack of Optima batteries. This, according to a statement
Wayland made that I found when searching through the
archives about a year ago(This statement was from back in
the 1990s!). John Bryan did every drag reduction trick in
the book, and his car is a good example for you to follow.
Finally, if I were you, Id consider the following setup,
cost breakdown included, to meet your goal.
If you want 50 miles usable range(50 miles to 80% DoD) at 70
mph and 0-60 mph in about 8 seconds or less, for a
conversion that weighs less than or about 2,800 pounds:
-WarP 9'' series DC motor x1 $1,395
-Exide Orbital XCD30 deep cycle battery x26 $2,548
-Cafe Electric Zilla Controller w/ Hall effect pedal
sensor(72-156V DC, 1,000 amp max) x1 $1,980
-Manzanita Micro PFC 20 Charger w/ buck enhancement x1
$1,800
-Todd DC-DC converter x1 $400
-Steel for battery racks $100
-Battery Cable $100
-EV200AAANA contactors x1 $75
-Feraz Shawmut A50QS600-4 fuse x2 $220
-E-Meter x1 $235
-Solid-State Ceramic Heater Core x1 $75
-Steel for Adaptor Plate $50
-Miscallaneous components(Heat shrink tubing, tools, ect.)
$1,000
-Rudman Battery Regulators x13 $572
About $10,500, not including shipping. If you have someone
else machine your adaptor plate, motor mounts, and battery
boxes for a fee, or have someone charge you money to do any
of the work, thousands could be added to the cost. The
adaptor plate alone to be machined would cost over $1k in
labor. These parts prices listed do not include shipping
costs. They also dont include the costs of any fiberglass
parts or low rolling resistance tires as well.
This pack of 32 Orbitals would be a 1,066 pound battery
pack. With this setup, youd use two strings of 156V, each
pair of batteries sharing a single regulator. If a
conversion with this setup weighed 2,800 pounds including
driver, had rear wheel drive, and had a 9 inch DC motor,
0-60 mph would be about 8-9 seconds, top speed around 100
mph. Youd get 50 miles range to 80% depth of discharge at
70 mph if and only if your conversion had attention paid to
cutting drag. You could possibly get more range with an
exceptionally efficient conversion, but you will get less
range if your car has poor aerodynamics and doesnt have
attention paid to reducing drag. An exceptionally efficient
conversion could possibly give you 80-100 miles range with
50% of its weight in batteries, as an extreme. Lower weight
also increases your acceleration. With a 9 motor and
1,000 amps on tap, this car could easily burn its tires and
dispel many myths. 0-60 in 9 seconds too slow? Upgrade the
1,000 amp controller to a higher voltage version adding a
few hundred dollars to the cost, but allowing 0-60 in 7
seconds or less assuming 2,800 pounds weight.
If you wanted a 15 mile range conversion to 80% depth of
discharge, you could cut about $2k from that cost by
eliminating one of the battery strings. But it would still
have to be an exceptionally efficient car. Weight would be
cut substantially with the loss of one of the battery
strings, and if the car could weigh 2,300 pounds with a 156V
single string of Orbitals, a 156V Zilla 1k, and a 9 inch
motor, 0-60 mph could be under 7 seconds.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correction. 26 Orbitals. That's what happens at 4 in the
morning.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>
>> You'd want to use a fairly lightweight aerodynamic vehicle to start
>> with,
>> Porsche 914, Carmen Ghia, Honda CRX, etc.
>
> I'm flattered, but I hardly tend to think of my 914 as being either
> particularly aerodynamic or lightweight :)
Granted the 914's Cd sucks, however, it makes up for it by having a very
small frontal area and fairly small wetted area. The overall drag for a
914 is lower than average for a car.
I don't see how you can consider it NOT to be lightweight. The early ones
weighed less than 2000 lbs and even the porky ones were only about 2100
lbs.
The ICE and gas tank weigh over 300 lbs. With some minor weight removal
you can get the weight down to 1500-1600 lbs before you start to add the
EV components.
There very few other cars (not counting kit cars) that can do better than
that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks David,
I'll try that tonight and see what I find.
Jeff Wilson
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: No More A/C motor problems... Yee Haw!!
On 9 Aug 2005 at 22:08, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> Now, however, when I switch the key on the speedometer
> jumps up to 20mph and just sits there.
I've never tinkered with an E10, but I'd expect them to use the speedo
output from the inverter. (My Force uses the original Metro speedo, driven
from the Solectria transaxle.) The speedo output drives pin 7 of the DB25
positive, with a voltage proportional to motor speed relative to ground (pin
1).
I have no idea what might cause it to read 20 mph all the time.
The odo output is a different critter; it outputs a pulse for each 100m on
pin 22, so it could easily work fine even if the speedo output somehow got
zorched.
If the inverter's speedo output is kaputt, one possibility would be to
switch the speedo connection to the other inverter. Be careful, and make
sure your speedo itself is OK before making the connection.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> a "Flexible Fuel
> Vehicle". I know nothing about ethanol, where to get
> it, how to properly
> "run" it, etc... but it seems like something worth
> pursuing? Comments?
Nick,
your Mazda is, as i am sure you know, just a rebadged
Ford Ranger. For a number of years Ford and the other
US auto makers made these FFV becuase they qualified
them for emissions credits, even if they were never
driven on the alternative fuel.
To run on E85, you don't have to do anything other
than fuel it up and go. The vehicle just has a fuel
sensor and an alternate fuel injection map in software
that allows it to adjust for the reduced energy
content of the Ethanol.
I don't know about TX, but in IL you should be able to
find some fueling stations with an E85 pump. For a
while, i know some places in the midwest had very
cheap ethanol (like $1/gal on Tuesdays) as a promotion
to make people realize that their GM or Ford vehicle
was actually fuel flexible.
Here is a map of public stations in IL that sell E85 :
http://www.illinoisgreenfleets.org/stations/index.html
good luck. nice truck.
~fortunat
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--- Begin Message ---
I'd say to tell the meter that they're only 160 Ah,
then you have extra left in them, right?
I.22 rings a bell on the Peukert; at least that's what
we use on US Batt. 8V.
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm happy to report that I had no trouble getting my
> E-meter working
> today. The only thing I need to do now is get an
> isolated DC/DC for it.
> Today I powered it from one of the 12-volt Ni-Cad
> batteries my cordless
> drill uses... definitely not a solution but it
> worked for now.
>
> I was playing with the settings on the E-meter and
> have some questions:
>
> 1) Trojan T-875s are supposed to be 170AH, but the
> E-meter only lets me
> set Amp-Hour capacity in increments of 20. So, is it
> better to set the
> E-meter to 160AH or 180AH ?
>
> 2) I haven't changed the Peukert exponent setting.
> Anyone know the
> Peukert value for T-875s? I think I remember it
> being 1.3 or something
> like that?
>
> I guess that's it for now. I did get a chance to
> fully charge my Jeep,
> reset the E-meter to 0 AH/kWh, then take a short
> trip this evening to
> watch it work. I turned function F04 "on" so the
> meter would read kWh
> instead of AH. After driving the 2.4 miles, the
> E-meter read -0.99 kWh.
> That would indicate my efficiency was 412.5
> watt-hours per mile which,
> if accurate, indicates to me that my Jeep's
> efficiency has improved
> quite a bit...
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
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=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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