EV Digest 4589
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: open source-ness of Solectria E10?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Alltrax Controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Review My Plans?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: LA Times front page article on EVs today
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Review My Plans?
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Review My Plans?
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Review My Plans?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Project ideas (long)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Review My Plans?
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Review My Plans?
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Alltrax Controller
by Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Review My Plans?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Alltrax Controller
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Review My Plans?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Time for new batteries soon
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Time for new batteries soon
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Review My Plans?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Putting breaker under the radio
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Hudson wrote:
All the systems are separate -- You could trash the controllers and AC
motors and put in a DC drive system.
You don't really mean to suggest that, do you? Usually people is
dreaming about doing it other way around - trash a DC system
and put AC system in.
Or dump the charger and put in one of the PFC units.
Same goes here. If you'll ever want to "dump" an NLG412
in a favor of a PFC, let's exchange - I'll give you PFC
and may be pay some.
All I can say is, this is the finest conversion I have ever seen.
Exactly. So I'd advise - don't touch it. If you dump anything
and put in something yourself, I'm afraid it will look as you
described:
chunks of plywood held together with duct tape here!
-Tom
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gravity be damned I'm going to mount the Breaker somhow either above or
below the floor of my car. Locations that it will fit: On or under the
hump in the back seat feet area. On the floor
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/418f.jpg you can see to lines of white next
to the stick shift. That installation did have the wires comming up for
about an inch in four places. Next to that under the shifter but in the
hump and protected from scraping. I would have to construct a box to
protect it from splash. What do you guys think? Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Putting breaker under the radio
On 17 Aug 2005 at 14:49, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
I mounted my breaker on the control board under the hood ...
The problem with that is that it exposes the breaker to road spray and
dirt,
unless it's encased in a box or something. I'm concerned about this.
Also,
what if the cable breaks in an emergency?
I like to mount the main breaker under the seat and bring the hv wiring up
through the floorpan. That's not really a good strategy because it still
puts the hv wiring inside the passenger compartment, even if it's just a
couple of feet.
I don't have a good answer for this, but I definitely don't like under the
hood and I'm uneasy about mechanical cable connections. Other thoughts?
Anybody?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a matter of taste, there is no "right" or "wrong" here.
Different people likes different cars, just like different
colors of cars.
Noel P. Luneau wrote:
Make it Big, make it Sexy, make it an EV and put in a loudspeaker to
make it rumble!
The way you described, I probably won't want to sit in it,
EV or not. But I'm sure it will appeal to some.
It's like wonderful Tango - really outstanding (spec wise)
vehicle which I won't consider having even for free because
it is butt ugly looking (to me). The fact that it may one day
do 0-60 in less than one second or its stereo's power blows out
owner's and passengers' brails is totally irrelevant - if I don't
drive it, why do I care?
But many get a kick out of it, and there is nothing wrong with
this - just a matter of taste.
I wish Rick and Jerry luck - the more EVs on the road -
the better off we all are.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would 6 U.S. EV-145's work? They are designed to be used in EV's They may
be taller and shorter. Not sure they would fit but they should last longer
and work better than the Trojan Marine batteries. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:24 PM
Subject: Alltrax Controller
HI all,
Just in the process of converting my Fiat 126 into electric drive. I
really really want to use the Alltrax 7245 controller, 72 volts at 450
amps because its got an rs232 port to monitor and data log the parameters.
I am doing my thesis on it. I know its cheap, i would like anyones
thoughts on it. Also i'll give my specs of the car i am converting. It
will weigh 750 kg all up, using Trojan SCS25 12 volts batteries, Uses a
6.7 inch advanced dc motor the K series, and running a 4 speed box with no
clutch.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless peltiers have changed substantially, that's a major power as well
as effectiveness issue. The pumping efficiency of Peltiers are only a
fraction of an HCFC system. Plus there's not a great deal of output
here per device and heatsink area.
Danny
Sam Harper wrote:
So I've put some thoughts on paper as to what I want in my conversion
- this is what I have so far:
-Homebuilt peltier A/C
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
What on earth are you talking about? What planet are you on? Did you even
read the article??? It sounds like NOT because your comments are a complete
disconnect from the article itself. The main character and protagonist of
that article, Dave Raboy, is a meat-eating, gun-toting rancher who drives a
pickup truck (albeit an electric one) and was a head-banging tight-end in
college. Is that not All-American and "Joe-everybody" enough for you? Or
does the guy actually have to mount his shotgun on a rack in the rear window
of his pickup truck, plaster a confederate flag on the truck, and live in
trailer in order to pass muster with you? Only a fool would call a big
bruiser like that a "fruitcake". You're just lucky you live far enough away
that he doesn't come and kick your sorry behind!
Charles
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:00:22 -0700, "Lawrence
> Rhodes"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Copy and paste into your browser: or click on if
> you are feeling lucky.
>
>http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ev15aug15,0,5131192.story?coll=la-home-headlines
>
> Damn, I hate that kind of article. It perpetuates
> the myth that all
> EV drivers are eco-fruitcakes. It un-does all the
> work us un-True
> Believers do to disassociate EVs and ourselves from
> the fruitcakes.
> I'm still waiting, in vane, it appears, for an
> article that shows
> Joe-everybodies driving EVs because they're fun and
> because they're
> cheap and convenient to operate.
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor and All,
Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sorry to say this Jerry, but Joe Average will never even consider
driving something you're designing (3 wheeler).
- First why did you bring this up? I never even mentioned my EV project.
- Second, You don't know what you are talking about. My most
enthusiastic customers are joe and amazingly jane sixpacks!!! They love my E
woody too even though it's a 10 yr old, weather beaten mistake!! All the
women at my bank that have seen my E woody and pics of what the Freedom EV will
be want one.
-And it will take little effort to sell them once they know it only
costs $.01/mile for fuel with the price of gas now. Once they get in and drive
it, you won't be able to keep them from buying it!!
All I'm hearing
from your posts is make it cheap cheap and then cheaper than that.
- Some hear what they want to hear instead of what's actually being said.
I use proven industral EV componants that have a low cost, high reliability,
value. Should I use overpriced compontants like yours so it's price would have
to be twice as much, about $26k vs $13k for my proven EV componants, whole EV?
Isn't that why earlier EV's have failed by being overpriced so few can afford
them?
- I get low cost, high value from good design with manufacturing in mind
using proven parts. I believe that's the only real way we will get many EV's on
the road. Or do you have another way that will work? Where is your production
EV? Where is your 100 mile range EV?
-You have spent 3 times as much on your EV, that can't get out of it's
own way, as it will take to put mine into production and mine will beat the
pants off yours in performance, range, wthr-mile easily. Why? I'd be glad to
race you for titles ;-))
I'm not saying that the cost should be ignored, but apparently it is
not the top priority for a Joe buying SUVs and Hummers left and right.
-Wasteful spending on needlessly expensive parts that do little
better at 5+ times the price is not a way to successfully produce a viable EV.
I believe your EV is a perfect example of that. No? For the price of just
your controller I could build an E woody that would put your EV to shame in
every way.
- My market is not the SUV buyer now is it? It is commuters,
colledge kids, sportscar addicts, early adopters, seniors, ect. And give me a
break, Hummers only sold because the Gov gave a tax credit for 85% of the cost.
When that went away last yr, they have stopped selling. Another example of your
exaggerations.
-The only thing I can figure out is you are jealous that someone on
much less money can build, sell an EV with a good profit that will put yours
to shame at 1/3 the price. There is a difference between cheap and good value.
Will your EV last 50 yrs as mine is designed for? How come only cars $100k and
up are built the same way mine is with all composite construction. I put my
money where it wil do the most good, in the design where it returns by far the
most bang for the buck.
-I'm using new, high quality parts that are perfect for their
purpose, why would I spend more? It's how you design, intergrate the EV, not
how much you spend. And ask anyone in sales, it's the price that makes a sale
so if EV's are to be successful, they must be reasonably priced.
So when are you going to put into production an EV? All I ever hear
from you is spend money on stuff that does little for the extra cost. When you
can come up with an EV that does 100 mile range at under $15k, you might have
something to say that's worth listening to. Until then, how about helping
people who are actually doing something to bring EV's to the masses instead of
making snide remarks, not based on facts.
Reasonable cost, high value, not cheap,
Jerry Dycus
Victor
jerry dycus wrote:
> Hi Michaela and All,
>
> Michaela Merz wrote:
>
> Hello nerds :)
>
>
> Not a great openning.
>
>
> In order to make EVs more appealing to the Joe-everybodies, we need more
> range. That means better batteries. What is the chance that some of the
> people here start a kind of co-op to be able to handle (charge, thermal
> handling) and to order i.e. lithium batteries from Saft, Valence or
> Thundersky in numbers?
>
>
> They are no good canidates for this except Ni-cads as the others have either
> cost or other problems. It is quite easy with a good lightweight, aero EV to
> get a 100 mile range.
>
> You can ven get this range with lead batts if you design the EV correctly by
> using 50% batt weight with low aero/rolling drag. Lead batts are the way to
> go because they have the lowest cost of any other types. One thing few know
> is most golf carts have a stock range of 60-100 miles!!
>
> As for joe 6 pack, what you need for them is either education just like you
> need for a reg car though it's so ingrained no one thinks of it with ICE cars
> or just make it idiot proof.
> HTH's,
>
> Jerry Dycus
> mm.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about using a Danfoss 12v DC compressor?
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/compressors/Danfoss/danfoss.asp
Sincerely,
Sam Harper
Danny Miller wrote:
Unless peltiers have changed substantially, that's a major power as
well as effectiveness issue. The pumping efficiency of Peltiers are
only a fraction of an HCFC system. Plus there's not a great deal of
output here per device and heatsink area.
Danny
Sam Harper wrote:
So I've put some thoughts on paper as to what I want in my conversion
- this is what I have so far:
-Homebuilt peltier A/C
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
Thanks for the input. You're right - they're not very effective. I'm
going to look into other options (hacking together a phase change
system, dunno yet). Any other input on other pieces? I'm starting to
look at the US-8 volt batteries for their weight per power.
-Sam
Danny Miller wrote:
Unless peltiers have changed substantially, that's a major power as
well as effectiveness issue. The pumping efficiency of Peltiers are
only a fraction of an HCFC system. Plus there's not a great deal of
output here per device and heatsink area.
Danny
Sam Harper wrote:
So I've put some thoughts on paper as to what I want in my conversion
- this is what I have so far:
-Homebuilt peltier A/C
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:30 PM 8/17/2005, Sam Harper wrote:
So I've put some thoughts on paper as to what I want in my
conversion - this is what I have so far:
-Dodge Ram 1500 or Ford F-150
I've thought about such a conversion as well, personally, I'm leaning
towards an F250 so that it still has a useful cargo capacity after
putting in 2000 lbs of GC batteries.
-Toneau cover, lowered, lightweight hood, etc (for lowering drag)
-Remove all ICE components
-Solectria AC55 bolted directly to the differential (~10:1 ratio
with custom gears)
-Solectria UMOC445 controller w/regen
Any ideas of what kind of acceleration such a setup will provide?
I've also thought about using a Z2K with dual 8" (or 9", or 11",
whatever) motors.
-PFC-30 or 50 charger
-Solectria 13.2v DC/DC converter
-Power brake/steering assist
-Homebuilt peltier A/C
I'd use one of the electric A/C units out of a newer car
instead. MUCH more efficient.
But what should I do about batteries? Do I stick with the US145s?
Optimas? Are there other options available? Evercels? NiCads from
SG-Photo? I want to do a 312v pack. Obviously I'd like as much
range as possible. I figure I've got up to a ton of weight to play
with (once I remove all the old ICE stuff, I already have about a
ton of difference between curb weight abd GVWR).
Make the battery boxes as big as possible, to allow various configurations.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joe and All,
Joe Vitek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have been on this list for many years, but rarely post as I have yet to take
the EV
plunge (started posting more lately). I have come close to starting a project
many times,
but have always put it on the back burner or only spent time dreaming about it.
Now the time has come that I REALLY want to build a fully electric commuter
vehicle.
Gasoline has gotten to the point that it really is more economical (right now)
to drive an
EV over an ICE car. My Honda Accord has 262,000 miles on it and things are
starting to
break (well, more major things now, not just normal wear items).
I thought about doing an S-10 that will have as much weight taken out as
possible: 'glass
flip nose, light bed, light seat, custom dash, etc.
I would like to get some input on a couple of questions.
What have you all found to be the lightest and most aero vehicle to convert? I
live 28.5
miles from work, of which, 22 miles is highway (70mph). I am looking for range,
but must
have a top speed of around 75-80 mph.
Is there another type of vehicle that would be better suited to what I need?
Something
more aerodynamic?
My budget is somewhat generous as this will be my "new" car. The wife and I
decided that I
would be replacing my daily driver with something newer. I am guessing that I
have a
budget of around $18k (home equity power!).
I already have an S-10 that had a wiring fire under the hood that has been
sitting
although I would entertain a completely different car/truck if it would suit my
needs
better.
Needs and situation:
I live in central Florida.
Need a commuter/daily driver replacement.
Carry some guitar equipment at times.
One way range of at least 50 miles would be best.
One-way drive to work is 28.5 miles (can charge at work).
budget of $18k
Thoughts, opinions, suggestions?
> For that budget I'd go for a Ferrari Daytona knockoff or other aero
kit car body on the S-10 chassis so you would have great weight capacity for
batts with very low drag. That could get you 100 mile range with a top speed of
80+mph or less range with very fast acceleration. For more carrying capacity
you can easy tow a trailer. If done right it could be worth $30+K when done and
smoke many other sportscars for lunch.
> Or get a Porsche 924-944-914- or Corvette and convert them for an Ev
that would be worth the price and hold it's value. Or a Karman Ghia, 240Z,
GT-6, some MR-2's are other good choices.
> You may want to look through the EV Photo Album for other likely
suspects. Also there is a Fla EAA EV group you may want to join.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus,
Tampa
--
joe
(digest, but going to switch to full list when I get home)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 04:30 PM 8/17/2005, Sam Harper wrote:
So I've put some thoughts on paper as to what I want in my conversion
- this is what I have so far:
-Dodge Ram 1500 or Ford F-150
I've thought about such a conversion as well, personally, I'm leaning
towards an F250 so that it still has a useful cargo capacity after
putting in 2000 lbs of GC batteries.
I'm hoping to strip it down comletely. DC A/C compressor, replace
certain parts with lighter-weight parts, etc, so I'm hoping the Ram 1500
quadcab will be enough.
-Toneau cover, lowered, lightweight hood, etc (for lowering drag)
-Remove all ICE components
-Solectria AC55 bolted directly to the differential (~10:1 ratio with
custom gears)
-Solectria UMOC445 controller w/regen
Any ideas of what kind of acceleration such a setup will provide?
I've also thought about using a Z2K with dual 8" (or 9", or 11",
whatever) motors.
I really don't know - I have no idea how to do any sort of calculation.
Hopefully it'll at least keep up with my Civic. :) I may do a DC, I
guess I just like the elegance of the AC system.
-PFC-30 or 50 charger
-Solectria 13.2v DC/DC converter
-Power brake/steering assist
-Homebuilt peltier A/C
I'd use one of the electric A/C units out of a newer car instead.
MUCH more efficient.
Yeah, definately changed my mind and I'm lookin at the DC compressors.
But what should I do about batteries? Do I stick with the US145s?
Optimas? Are there other options available? Evercels? NiCads from
SG-Photo? I want to do a 312v pack. Obviously I'd like as much
range as possible. I figure I've got up to a ton of weight to play
with (once I remove all the old ICE stuff, I already have about a ton
of difference between curb weight abd GVWR).
Make the battery boxes as big as possible, to allow various
configurations.
Yeah. I'm looking at 8v US Battery HC units. Hopefully make a 312v,
105ah pack. I wish I could calculate a possible range figure.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-08-17, Sam Harper wrote:
> So I've put some thoughts on paper as to what I want in my conversion -
> this is what I have so far:
> -Dodge Ram 1500 or Ford F-150
> -Toneau cover, lowered, lightweight hood, etc (for lowering drag)
> -Remove all ICE components
> -Solectria AC55 bolted directly to the differential (~10:1 ratio with
> custom gears)
It seems to me that you've missed the most important bit:
once you've got the ICE out from under the hood, you can
fill the space left over with ice ... and beer!
-----sharks ("It's for the air-conditioner, officer!")
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I too have a similar setup in mind with a Ford Festiva as the glider.
I was thinking of going either 8V or 12V batteries, but I'm not sure
as I do want the most autonomy possible. My main goal is to have a
vehicle that I would drive an average of 25-35 Mph with a 50%
discharge at about 25-30 Miles. Since I would like to drive it about
10 months out of the year here in Montreal, I must build in some extra
autonomy for the colder driving months and also to keep the discharges
at optimal to get the most mileage out of my batteries. All in all I
think this is doable and since I only have a budget of around
$2,000.00 USD using an Alltrax with a K series and 12 V batteries is
very appealing, although I'm not sure about the price of the
batteries. Any comments to add to this?
thanks,
Stefano
On 8/17/05, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Would 6 U.S. EV-145's work? They are designed to be used in EV's They may
> be taller and shorter. Not sure they would fit but they should last longer
> and work better than the Trojan Marine batteries. LR.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:24 PM
> Subject: Alltrax Controller
>
>
> > HI all,
> >
> > Just in the process of converting my Fiat 126 into electric drive. I
> > really really want to use the Alltrax 7245 controller, 72 volts at 450
> > amps because its got an rs232 port to monitor and data log the parameters.
> > I am doing my thesis on it. I know its cheap, i would like anyones
> > thoughts on it. Also i'll give my specs of the car i am converting. It
> > will weigh 750 kg all up, using Trojan SCS25 12 volts batteries, Uses a
> > 6.7 inch advanced dc motor the K series, and running a 4 speed box with no
> > clutch.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Jerry and all the other posters.
While there is a certain truth in all your statements, some sound as if
they would have been taken from some 3 year old archive. New batteries are
expensive? Of course. But if one can place an order for 100 batteries,
they cost about 50% less. Would I buy a battery pack that gives me, say
200 Ahrs/C1 with 1/2 the weight of lead acid batteries for US$ 7500? Yes,
I would.
And Lithium-xy batteries require some sophisticated battery managment? Of
course (though Valence u-charge type batteries come with an integrated bms
and are thermal stable). The new generation thunderskys are supposed to be
save, will not burn and, should they catch fire (for whatever reasons),
you can use plain water to kill the fire.
I am very enthusiastic about EV technology. I can understand, that some EV
'oldtimers' (that is just an expression!) might be a bit frustrated. But
we (or you all) should encourage every 'newbie' (including me) as these
are the people that have the will, the drive and the power to continue and
to go .. (include homage to Gene Roddenberry)
Just my two cents.
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:22 PM 8/17/2005, Sam Harper wrote:
Make the battery boxes as big as possible, to allow various configurations.
Yeah. I'm looking at 8v US Battery HC units. Hopefully make a
312v, 105ah pack. I wish I could calculate a possible range figure.
Personally, I'd stay away from the 8V batteries, as I've gotten the
impression from this list that they have lifespan problems in an EV.
You could try http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI all,
The batteries i am using for my car is Trojan SCS225 at $154 +gst aussie
dollars, pretty cheap. but if you plan to do the conversion for about 2000
us dollars, it might be running a bit tight. The conversion would be good,
howeve i think you have to keep the weight down. In the ford festiva, the
car itself weighs a fair bit, well prob 800-900kg. My car only weighs 500 kg
or a little less after the stripdown. Use 12 volt batteries as they would
keep the weight down and yeah 50 DOD is good to aim for.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What car has made an all-electric A/C? I have never heard of this. A
LOT of electricity is required.
Danny
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
I'd use one of the electric A/C units out of a newer car instead.
MUCH more efficient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Let's see what you'd get. A 72v pack of US125s (is THIS what
> you have?) will yield 9650 Wh at 150 amps (neglecting sag).
> A 72v pack of 24 Optima YTs, buddy paired, will yield 5760 Wh
> at 150 amps (same proviso).
I'm not sure I follow your math. 24YTs configured for a 72V system
results in buddy-quadruplets (?) rather than buddy pairs. Assuming the
~30Ah real world usable capacity from a YT in EV duty that is reported,
this is a 72V, 120Ah or 8640Wh nominal pack (neglecting sag).
> So although the Optimas would be "stiffer," you'd lose
> significant capacity and range (about 40% loss).
Actually, it is Wh, not Ah that matters, so the stiffer pack will
actually compensate for a slight reduciton in Ah capacity because at a
higher pack voltage fewer amps must be drawn to achieve a given power
level. It takes Steve's Tropica 150A to cruise on the highway because
the flooded pack voltage sags to some level at this load; an AGM pack
exhibiting less sag will require less current to maintain the same
speed.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward wrote:
>All this stuff scares me a bit and has me wondering if
>I am deciding right to go with AGM batteries. I have
>been planning a 156v pack for my conversion. I don't
>want to have to spend an extra $40-50 per battery just
>for individual regulators. What scares me more is the
>apparently short life span that some folks are
>implying on the AGMs. I need to get 2 or 3 years out
>of my pack to make the investment worth while. I also
>want to be sure and get a correct charger. If the agm
>pack is only going to last a year, I might as well go
>with "cheapie" marine batteries that can be purchased
>for a third of the price!
>
>There has to be a happy medium somewhere!
John Bryan's Optimas have lasted for 7 years, last I
checked. If you keep the discharge rates between 30% and
40%, and you have a proper charger and regulation scheme for
them, apparently they'll last in excess of 2,000 cycles.
The published data on Commuterar's website has a cycle life
reported to be much greater than that.
The regulators are probably worth it, better to spend $50 on
each battery to make it last at least twice as long, than to
keep replacing $100 batteries. What's nice about the regs,
they're a one time buy like a controller or a motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danfoss makes GREAT stuff! I have a couple of fridges based on their stuff.
These are fridge compressors however, and their capacity is quite low.
Car A/C systems don't usually publish BTU/hr capacities but it's really
high, higher than most room A/C units. Danfoss was quite helpful to
list its pumping capacity- 934 Btu/hr (274 Watts), though they don't
give a differential. Since it's a fridge that might be from a room temp
condenser to a freezer evaporator, which is quite cold, you should
either get more capacity or consume less power with a warmer evaporator.
In fact, I have a Danfoss-driven icebox with the compressor and
condensor set up externally on some flexible lines. I might be able to
part with it if want to buy it to try it out. It's charged and
operational. Might make sense if you're pumping coolant into the seats
to cool the seats alone.
A/C performance depends heavily on the condenser getting the coolant as
close to outside air temp as possible and the evaporator using up all
the cold so it exits as close to room temp as possible. But only so
much improvement is possible. And more complicated elements present
flow restrictions which make the compressor work harder and it starts to
lose efficiency again.
I have a 6000 BTU room A/C installed in the back window of my camper van
for plugging in at a campground, but I also have a huge inverter and an
alternator capable of around 160 amps and a deep cycle battery so I
experimented. It takes around 60 amps @ 12vdc at first after it gets
over the starting surge. Then as the temp differential builds up, the
current crawls up over 100 amps. It's not lost in the inverter- it's
not that hot at all. A hot alternator does not have the current
capacity of a cold one either. Eventually the A/C demand and the
reduced alternator output met and it was net discharging the deep cycle
battery. It was only an attempt to assist the normal A/C in the first
place, it's not enough to really keep the van cold driving through the
sun. With a much more limited cab space 6000 BTU would be overkill.
Danny
Sam Harper wrote:
What about using a Danfoss 12v DC compressor?
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/compressors/Danfoss/danfoss.asp
Sincerely,
Sam Harper
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK Jerry, will try one at the time.
jerry dycus wrote:
Hi Victor and All,
Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry to say this Jerry,
but Joe Average will never even consider driving something you're
designing (3 wheeler).
- First why did you bring this up? I never even mentioned my EV
project.
Syre you did, Sorry I deleted your messages, but you mention
numerous times your real efficient Freedom EV project you're
working on. Not in your last email, no.
- Second, You don't know what you are talking about. My most
enthusiastic customers
Re-read my post. I don't care about your most enthusiastic customers.
All I said *I* won't seat in a 3 wheeler, period. Not your customers.
I don't have to like it, do I?
are joe and amazingly jane sixpacks!!! They love my E woody
I'd also love e-woody. To look at. As I like vintage cars.
Doesn't mean I'd want to drive one.
All the women at my bank that have seen my E woody and pics of what
the Freedom EV will be want one.
Good luck. Did I say all the women at your bank wouldn't want one?
If I want to say something, I'll say it myself.
-And it will take little effort to sell them once they know it
only costs $.01/mile for fuel with the price of gas now. Once they
get in and drive it, you won't be able to keep them from buying it!!
As I said: it is matter of taste. Assume it is ready *today*
already and you pay me to have it and drive it, I still won't.
Women at your bank will. I won't. There will be others like
women at your bank, and others like me as well.
Why do you have such a problem with that?
All I'm hearing from your posts is make it cheap cheap and then
cheaper than that.
- Some hear what they want to hear instead of what's actually being
said.
Next time you'll say "Cheaper" or "lower cost" I'll
quote you, to make sure *you* said it, not I hear something else, OK?
I'll underline it with ^^^^.
I use proven industral EV componants ...
I don't intend to compare here, but I also use proven industial EV
components.
...that have a low cost, high reliability, value.
^^^^^^^^
You know all too well, that these three are contradicting.
Pick any two. Else there would be no reason to invent
anything else out there.
Should I use overpriced compontants like yours so it's price would
have to be twice as much, about $26k vs $13k for my proven EV
componants, whole EV?
First, they are not mine, they are Siemens (and others).
I only offer to others what they make and if you don't like
the price, walk away.
About reliability - point me to a single component in your
vehicle guaranteed by manufacturer for 10 years as Siemens does.
That's where the valie is. Before calling it it overpriced, ask
those who have it if they believe investment worth it.
It is overpriced in your eyes Jerry because you can't afford it.
I have quite a few emails expressing amazement how cheap these
drives are compared to what they do.
Isn't that why earlier EV's have failed by being overpriced so few
can afford them?
I don't know, it is not technical issue. RAV4 was $42k MSRP
and about $30k after rebates, and *many* people would pay
for this *overpriced* vehicle today if it only were available.
Perhaps not you, but many.
- I get low cost, high value
^^^^^^^^
I've head that already. Please define "Value". Not value to you.
from good design
I've never said your design is bad, have I?
with manufacturing in mind using proven parts.
Back to the same here - the parts I use are also
manufactured and proven on the road.
I believe that's the only real way we will get any EV's on the road.
Sorry, I don't share your believe. Unfortunately you make
it sound like I'm your enemy and don't want EVs on the road.
Or do you have another way that will work?
David Roden once posted great message about conditions
at which EV acceptance will work. Supporting gov't was one
of them, right legislature I think another.
If you have gazillion dollars and make EVs for free
but they are officially "unwanted", they will be outlawed
very quickly.
Where is your production EV? Where is your 100 mile range EV?
Huh? Who is producing (or promising) EVs, you or I?
I never claimed or wanted to produce any, address this
question to someone who promised but failed.
MInd you, *my* EV has more than 100 miles range.
-You have spent 3 times as much on your EV,
I wanted to! It's my hobby! I love spending money on
my hobby! I don't care how much my EV cost me, as long
as I can afford it. Do you have problem with that?
Please don't look in my pocket, worry about yours.
as it will take to put mine into
production and mine will beat the pants off yours in
performance, range, wthr-mile easily. Why? I'd be glad
to race you for titles ;-))
As I mentioned about Tango - it "beat pants" off
about any EV performance wise, most likely including
yours. So what? if I DON'T LIKE the car, I won't have it.
I was talking about my personal taste only, re-read my post.
No doubt, your car can get better Wh/mile number than
any conversion not built ground up as an EV. So what?
Some people LIKE trucks. So they will get trucks. Trucks
get worse Wh/mile than passenger cars, byt this people
WILL GET TRUCKS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY LIKE TRUCKS.
They would love to reduce power consumption of course,
but they will not consider a wood 3 wheeler because
they like trucks. Makes no difference to them how inexpensively
you can manufacture non truck like your Freedom EV.
Why is it so difficult to comprehand?
I'm not saying that the cost should be ignored, but apparently it is
not the top priority for a Joe buying SUVs and Hummers left and
right.
-Wasteful spending on needlessly expensive parts that do little
better at 5+ times the price is not a way to successfully produce a
viable EV. I believe your EV is a perfect example of that. No?
No. If I were to produce car like mine for others, may be I would not
make it the way it is now. When I made ACRX, I twas never my goal
to "successfully produce a viable EV". So the money is no issue here.
For the price of just your controller I could build an E woody that
would put your EV to shame in every way.
It is your opinion. I don't doubt your skills Jerry, but somehow I
doubt what you produce will put to shame Siemens.
This is fruitless debate. Produce it first and then will talk.
> There is a difference between cheap and good value.
Oh, yes, I know that.
Will your EV last 50 yrs as mine is designed for?
If I were building them from scratch, may be yes may be no.
I use Honda CRX, whatever time it will last.
When it is worn out, the drive system will migrate to a new glider.
I see no reason to drive the same car 50 years, many standards will
change over that time. It is absurd, but nothing can stop you.
How come only cars $100k
and up are built the same way mine is with all composite
construction.
Good grief, what the idiots all these hundreds of designers
of $100k+ cars are! What do they know about money and values?
Only Jerry is a brilliant genious who came up with a wooden
3 wheeler doing 100Wh/mile.
Give me the break.
I put my money where it wil do the most good, in the
design where it returns by far the most bang for the buck.
You can put your money wherever you feel appropriate Jerry.
Same applies to me and to anyone on this list.
-I'm using
new, high quality parts that are perfect for their purpose, why would
I spend more?
Apparently your definition of "perfect" does not coinside with mine.
> -The only thing I can figure out is you are jealous that someone on
> much less money can build, sell an EV with a good profit that will
> put yours to shame at 1/3 the price.
Thank you, this made my day! I had a good laugh at what you
"could figure out"! Let me assure you I'd never want to
be in your shoes. Much less to be jealous about anything
you do.
It's how you design, intergrate the EV, not how much
you spend. And ask anyone in sales, it's the price that makes a sale
so if EV's are to be successful, they must be reasonably priced.
Very true, I never debated that. Don't forget I never
attempted to design or sell an EV, so welcome to
debate this with someone who does.
So when are you going to put into production an EV?
Never. I'm not interested in mass producing EVs.
All I ever hear from
you is spend money on stuff that does little for the extra cost. When
you can come up with an EV that does 100 mile range at under $15k,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
you might have something to say that's worth listening to.
So you listen to only something you can afford.
Until
then, how about helping people who are actually doing something to
bring EV's to the masses instead of making snide remarks, not based
on facts.
Reasonable cost, high value, not cheap,
We're going in circles. Define "high value".
As of today Jerry, I have helped more people to get their
EVs on the road that you did.
Well, no need to define anything Jerry.
This debate is as useless and fruitless as one one you engaged
with Bill Dube about triles stability few days ago.
Good luck with your high value projects and have a nice day.
I have no intent to continue this world wide.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I don't have a good answer for this, but I definitely don't
> like under the hood and I'm uneasy about mechanical cable
> connections. Other thoughts? Anybody?
I also didn't like the idea of a mechanical cable connection, and wanted
to keep the traction wiring compact and simple, so I mounted the breaker
under the floor of the car. The breaker is in the central hump so that
it is somewhat protected and is enclosed in an aluminum box to protect
it from the elements. Since my battery pack is sunk into the floor of
the vehicle on either side of the hump, this location is ideal
electrically (the breaker splits the pack into 2 and contactors in the
+ve and -ve pack leads disconnect it from the controller).
Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Next to that under the shifter but in the hump and protected
> from scraping. I would have to construct a box to protect
> it from splash. What do you guys think?
Forget constructing a box; just buy one off the shelf:
Hammond #1444-14 (9"x5"x2", aluminum): $10.69 form Digikey
<http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=135011&Row
=329756&Site=US>
Hammond #1434-14 (cover for above): $4.09 from Digikey
<http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?Ref=136521&Row
=329686&Site=US>
If you want to give yourself a bit more room to assemble the breaker
into the box, perhaps go for the 10"x6"x2" model. Hammond also makes a
line of steel chassis, but Digikey doesn't stock them. The aluminum
version works fine; the corners are spot welded so I sealed them with a
bead of silicone on the inside and I gasketed the lid. The lid is a bit
on the flimsy side and you might opt to make your own out of a piece of
1/16" plate instead to ensure better sealing.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
