EV Digest 4604
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Help me decide!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Alltrax controller part 2
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 3-Phase power at home?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Sponsorship possibilities?
by "Milford E. Sandy III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 100 mile range,
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Alternative batteries/mower
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: click , CLick , 4WS Prelude
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Controller instead of Solenoids?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Variable electricity rates
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 3-Phase power at home?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Curves of batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: How to check series motor
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 3-Phase power at home?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Help me decide!
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Help me decide!
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Toyota Camary
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Help me decide!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Harper wrote:
> So I should ensure that proper cooling is integrated?
The Eteks have no cooling system. If heavily loaded, you need to add
one. Since they are air cooled, this means providing a means to blow a
significant amount of air thru it.
This is especially challenging if the motor is in the wheel. It needs
the most cooling at stall and low speeds; where there is no airflow from
vehicle motion. The air around the wheel is also loaded with dirt,
water, and other debris. So you'd have to connect large flexible hoses
to each wheel, and force air into them from some high-and-dry source
with a big blower.
> Room should be ok. I may be able to design an enclosure for them to be
> mounted in the undercarriage.
Ok, that would be what I'd try.
>> One option might be to use hydraulic wheel motors.
> Too expensive.
Not compared to the Etek! They are less than half the price. A Char-Lynn
2000-series wheel motor, of the appropriate torque-speed to drive your
wheel directly without a gear reducer, is about $350 and weighs 28 lbs.
>> Motors in series act exactly like a normal car differential.
> When in series, 48v or 48vx4 (192v)?
Since the Etek is a 48v motor, this means (for example) 2 in series
running from a 96v pack and controller. Beware that motors in series act
*exactly* like a car's differential! If you lift one wheel clear of the
ground and "floor it", that wheel spins at TWICE the speed! With two
Eteks and 96v, it would try to spin at 10,000 rpm. It won't make it --
it will throw itself to pieces with a bang!
>> Motors in parallel work independently, and act like a limited slip
>> differential.
> When in parallel, 48v with lots of current?
Correct. You might use a 48v 500amp controller for two Eteks in
parallel. Here the thing to beware of is that if one wheel is in the
air, both wheels still turn at about the same speed. However, all the
CURRENT is going to the one that still has traction. The one motor is
doing all the work and getting all the power meant for two.
So, it each case it would be wise to include sensors to detect and
prevent these abnormal cases.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Robert,
See Alltrax FAQ.
http://www.alltraxinc.com/old/AXEDOCs/FAQ.pdf
Q. The controller I am replacing has a 4th bar (A2) and the AXE I
bought only has three bars?
A. Take the wire or wires that went to A2 and bolt them together tape
up and secure them out of
the way. Rest assured if you do this because 9 out of 10 people do not
even know they have it.
Scott Leavitt
1993 CityCom City EL with Alltrax AXE 4865
http://www.evalbum.com/586.html
--- Robert Chew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The Alltrax controller i want to use in my ev "7245" model has only
> three
> terminals to connect to the motor. The curtis has four. How can u
> still
> connet it up I got a 6.7 inch K series ADC motor.
>
> Cheers
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 03:17:33 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Since we're on the subject.. any chance of getting some 440 action to
>>>a residential home? How about some 660?? :) Potential future
>>>charger projects for Rich Rudman.. :)
>
>Just out of curiousity, why are folks asking the list these questions?
>
>If you want to know if there is any chance you can get 3-phase or 480
>power, ask your power company. They are the only people who can answer
>this question authoritively.
Even though I was on the information providing end of this one, I can
certainly answer. Anytime I face dealing with something totally
unfamiliar to me, I certainly want info from those "in the know"
before I go asking "the authorities". Especially so in this case,
since utility bureaucrats tend to have that "I don't care, I don't
have to" monopolistic arrogance about them. I'd want to know a few
buzz words. I'd want to know the implications of words I might use,
just in case there are any trigger words I want to avoid that might
cause doors, mental and physical, to slam shut on me. I'd also want
to know words or phrases that might work the other way, greasing the
skids, as it were.
I imagine the original poster asked in idle curiosity. There wasn't a
snowball's chance in hell that anyone at a utility would sit down and
give him an overview of the situation and the problems faced from a
consumer's view as I did. Unless in management, the utility person
probably would not have a good overview in the first place and most
likely would not take the time, in any case.
Besides, what better use of this list than to ask questions?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
Forgive me if this seems like an insane post, but it's 5:30 in the morning
and I have a crazy idea that I need to get out. I've been thinkink the last
couple of days, NJ isn't exactly a hotbed for EV activity. As mentioned in
one of the responses to my last post though, it is a good place to own one.
Gas prices are rapidly approaching $3.00/gal., the terrain here is
relatively flat, the congestion of traffic makes it unnecessary to have
rediculously high performance, and given it's status as the most densly
populated state in the country, it seems a prime location for reducing
emissions.
I would like nothing more than to build (or preferably buy) an EV, my
problem is that I only make $9.45 an hour and have ZERO funds to pull off
such a project. Even if I had the money, I live in an apartment, and lack
the facilities, so a conversion would have to be done at a shop. I am
currently looking to change jobs to one that would hopefully put me into the
30-40k/year range, which will help. I was wondering though, if there are any
companies or organizations out there who offer sponsorship to people who
want to do this. My idea is to have a car with a classic sort of look. My 2
first choices are the Opel GT and (preferably) the Bradley GT. Do it up kind
of like a modern tuner car and take it to all sorts of shows, like classic
car shows, and import tuner type events with the companies' logos all over
the car. I know there are companies in the import aftermarket who do this on
a regular basis to promote thier products so I thought it might be worth
looking into.
I really believe that this whole EV movement is a great cause and I'd love
to be a part of it by being a catalyst for change and promoting interest
here in NJ. I've already gotten a couple of my co-workers and friends
thinking just by talking to them about it. Like I said, forgive me if this
is a crazy idea, but I had to put it out there. Thanks for listening
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen"
I pulled out my Miami
Sectional (aeronautical) Chart to check it. The elevation at St. Lucie
County Int'l Airport (FPR) there in Ft. Pierce is 23 feet MSL. The
elevation at Okeechobee County Airport (OBE) in Okeechobee is 34 feet MSL.
So you were actually driving uphill, NOT downhill, most of the way --
specifically on two out of your three legs -- FPR to OBE twice (uphill)
and
OBE to FPR once (downhill).
Charles
Thanks Charles I'm e mailing him this post and it looks like I'll be in the
100 miles on a charge club. Right now its looking pretty empty .
http://www.grassrootsev.com/100club.htm Maybe if he offered a neat sticker ,
. Of course when sombody asks me how far "it " will go . Being able to say "
I drove 100 miles on a charge to get in the 100 mile club " sure is nice , ,
getting in that other club , 100mph in the 1/4 will not be so easy :-)
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks John for the insight on the hydraulics , I only have 100 dollars into
that frame and picked up another older chain drive ( still uses hydraulic
motors but they used chains to drive the wheels ) frame for $50 and am
planning on replacing the hydraulic motors with electric motors . I'll have
to have two controllers , one for each wheel/motor but it looks like a easy
replacement . as ev's go 10 mph and 1000 lbs using 7,000 watts , I think I
have the most inefficient ev out there. Even with these problems I still
want to go on , I've had a taste and I really want more . The gas engine on
my mower is going to need replacing . I'm in the same place as allot of
people , do I stay with gas , buy a new engine 1200 dollars , or jump into
an electric and deal with all the short coming ( Li lon batteries would give
the run time , but cost 10k ) . with a 135 ah pack of 6 valance batteries I
could cut 3 yards per charge easy so 2000 cycles = 6000 yards, ( I'll also
have to have a lead golf cart pack on the trailer to charge form) . So it
would cost me another dollar per yard , if it works , . I'm going to load up
what I got now with another 6 orbitals , and do more testing . One thing I
will say is it feels like it has the power to cut through anything :-)
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <
Subject: Re: Alternative batteries/mower
Yup, this is why I try to talk people out of using hydraulics on
battery powered systems. Even the best of 'em are quite inefficient
compared to electrics. Hydraulics work when you need a lot of power
in a small space. Nothing beats a hydraulic motor for HP per unit
volume.
Here are some design considerations:
Keep the velocity of the fluid low, and certainly out of the turbulent
flow range. It is a good idea to do some Reynolds number calcs. That
info is readily available via google.
Use as thin a fluid as you can. This increases pump and motor losses
from leakage but much more greatly reduces flow losses. Consider
diesel fuel or even kerosene with an extreme pressure additive. Keep
the fluid cool to avoid cavitation losses.
Low volume, high pressure is the best route. Use oversized hoses,
again to minimize the velocity of the fluid.
No machined 90deg elbows if possible. Where 90's must be used, try to
use large radius bent tubing.
Use a high volume, low RPM pump, using a gearbox if necessary. A low
speed, high torque motor would be better. The gearbox losses will be
less than the shear losses in a high RPM pump.
Avoid valves, reducers and other sharp transitions in the fluid path
that can set up turbulence.
Make sure there is no backpressure in the fluid return lines. For low
loss systems, I generally avoid a full time suction line filter.
Ideally a separate loop would be set up for filtering. Alternatively,
provide a filter bypass. Filter only when on shore power.
Backpressure does more harm than might be apparent from just the
consideration of pressure. Backpressure makes the fluid back up in
the motors, causing more turbulence losses. Whenever it can be
arranged, the motor should discharge into a large sloping tube open to
air
Use a bladder or diaphragm breather on the fluid tank so that the
fluid system can be hermetic while allowing for expansion. If the
system is open, moisture will condense in the tank. When it mixes
with the oil (actually an emulsion), it increases the viscosity and
pumping losses.
Consider "porting and polishing" the fluid passages in both the pump
and motors. Especially in low cost components, little mind is paid to
flow paths. Opening them up and smoothing them can help a lot,
particularly if your hydraulic fluid is viscous.
You have the ideal setup for optimizing the system with the electric
motor having an ammeter. Just tune the system for the lowest amps no
load at a given RPM.
John
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:30 -0500, "STEVE CLUNN"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My Lawn mower project has hit a bump in the road , It looks like the
hydraulic drive system , with hydraulic motors on each of the 2 big wheels
which drive and steer the mower are wasting allot of power . I'm at 72
volts
( 6 excides orbitals ) and with the motor running at the same speed as the
gas engine (3600RPM) it is pulling 100 amps , without the blades on , and
140 to 180amps while cutting . One yard can use 30 ahs when run like the
gas engine . Slowing the motor down can cut back power use to 15 ah but
this
is running very slow. The other side of the coin is how nice it is NOT to
have the noisey ,smelly , hot gas engine going . So I'm looking at the
members and trying to make it work. I picked up another frame with the
older style hydro's that used chains to drive the wheels and I'm thinking
of
replacing these hydraulic motors with smaller 2 electric motors , I'm also
thinking that running the 8" motor at 3600 rpm is using allot of power
where
if I put a bigger pulley on the motor I could turn the blades at the right
speed with the electric motor running at 1/2 the rpm . I'm thinking about
Li ion batteries down the road to get longer run time and still keep
thing
light. .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Hartley"
Another observation on Li Ion batteries:
I think that Valence is a good battery choice that I expect will gain
market share. At the moment it seems more expensive up front, but
considering the expected cycle life, and the BMS included, looks very
attractive to me.
right now I'm using about 1 dollar of gas to cut each yard I do . So if I
get 2 yards on a cycle ( 60 ah %50 dod on a 135ah battery) and 2000 cycles
=
4000 yards for 8000 dollars worth of batteries , 2 dollars a yard , This
really is not to bad , and not having to mess with a gas engine ect .
Steve Clunn
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
Hi Jukka and All,
Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would say 2C is already VERY useful.(will write another thread what
I'm talking in here)
For high voltage AC drives maybe but for DC that's rather
light. Though Doug Hartley has had good luck with 300amphr buddy pairs,
100 and 200amphr cells/pair along with an AGM lead pack for peak
power.
That works well as when heavier draws are needed the stiffer voltage of
the agm's take the load while the Li-ions take it the other times at
96vdc nom. He doesn't use regs I think but still has good results as he
has such a large pack which is gently charged, discharged.
Among chemistries and individual cells there sure are HUGE differences.
I have sorted cells from normal production line which have less than 1
mohm internal resistance. These cells are 150 ah Li-Mn cells. sagging
was very low and battery got even better after few discherges (temp
about 40 celsius). Very useful already in 5C rates.
I have sorted out also cells with enormous Rint. like 130 mohm. Useful
only in very low 1/10C rates.
This is why I can't use these in my EV I'll sell to reg people
which
is too bad as I'd love to have a 250 mile range EV!! If I had money to
spare I might even try them myself. Though for technical people like
you,
Doug, Victor, ect they are an interesting way to go.
Many hope to have Lithium cells in sizes starting 100 Ah and up with
0,001% tolerance. quess what... It will never happen. Even if cells
would be very similar they would be scattered around the car and
air/liquid flows would not allow cohorent enough cooling/heating. again
differences in their properties... Even BMS will not flatten out cells
to this tolerance. But do we need that ? nope.
Li-ions are not the only battery with this temp
difference
problem as it will kill AGM's too. I like to keep all my batts together
so they all stay withing a degree of each other cutting this problem to
almost nothing. It's a major advantage in my EV having them all in one
spot just for this reason. An insulated, temp controlled batt box or
boxes is worthwhile especially in winter for lead and summer for
li-ions,
NiMH.
Thanks to you, Doug and Victor for experimenting with
these batts and letting us know what you find. with the coming
recession
and all the new Li-ion chemical factories about to start production,
the
price should start dropping faster and hopefully quality control will
be
improved as better, cheaper Li-ions are the key to wide speard EV use..
Jerry Dycus
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Puh./Fax. +358 19 735 705
GSM +358 440 735 705
www.fevt.com
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I just wanted to say "wow" on your choice of donor vehicle -- The old
(89-91) 4WS Preludes have been a subject of fascination for me for some
time, and were one of the first cars I was interested in converting to an
EV, way back when..
Your not going to belive this But I have one of these , Its a ev project I
started with sombody who bailed 1/2 way through, I made the adptor plate and
battery boxed ect , and had it on the road , till I needed the motor for
somthing else.
The only problem is that they are indeed *rare*; I
was never able to find one to buy.
well you can buy this one , body and inside in good shape , $1000 and its
yours , and yes the 4 wheel steering works , can do a u trun in you drive
way , well almost.
Steve Clunn with too many cars
I saw a red '91 on the road here in
Austin once a couple years ago and I followed it for a few blocks just to
get a better look at it (it was in beautiful condition) and watch it make
turns. A really cool thing, to see those rear wheels pivot.
Of course, since then my goals and strategy have changed multiple times,
and so now (for numerous practical reasons I won't go into here) I'm
converting a compact pickup truck, which is so fundamentally not my style
it's kind of funny. Eh, go figure.
--chris
low_b_5 said:
And so it goes in a ball of smoke. She was dependable, good mileage .
Never failed to start, first shot with the key. I Bought her severly
abused for 1200 with 170k miles +. Ran her for almost 3 years
before...snif ... before she went, and right in my driveway too.
Ok, so much for dino juice sob story anyway . Its time has
come ...and gone
( STICK IT OIL PRODUCERS EVERY WHERE! )
Hi everyone ! I just signed up as a member and this is post
#1 I still have a very road worthy 89 Honda Prelude...less
I.C.E.... I have been thinking on "electro-frying"
something ...so... I guess this is my chance, and it couldn't have
came at a better time.
Its a front wheel drive, 5 speed std with 4 wheel steering.(4ws) as
its called. Kind of a semi rare car . I feel I will have to go with a
deep cycle lead acid set up. Its tried and true and not as
expensive as the newer li's and nicad's and the charging is well
documented as well. However, I may opt to go with them in the future.
I would be most gratefull for info on adaptor plates, best motor
and controller and charger, to build a daily driver reaching hwy
speed (55 -65 mph) for a 25 mile round trip thats relitively flat,
to work and back and to the store around the corner. Charge at home.
My only slight concern is about hydrogen gas build up. I'll be
using the trunk for the majority of the batt / electrical
compartment. The back seat folds down allowing for a portal through
the trunk.( for golf clubs I think) Whats a good way to get good
venting ,but keep it so water wont soak the inside
I'm good at mechanical, electrical and fabracation and have the
basic tools. However, The adaptor plate I would like to purchase.
If anyone has any 2 cents to add, Something or service they might
want to sell, or even what to call this project? Please, feel free!
Any and all ideas are welcome! I hope to cronical this build on the
web, more than likely on Geo-cities. In the hopes it will help and
inspire others who have had their fill on dino juice too.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 21, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Pascal wrote:
Can I safely assume that a controller will replace the
solenoids.
Yes, except for one or two of them. You still need a way to remove
power from the controller when you turn the vehicle off. If you use
flooded batteries and a non-isolated charger you may need to disconnect
the motor completely with a second contactor to limit leakage current.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ooooh.... exploitation. You somehow get two accounts, one variable
rate, the other not. Maybe a duplex and you secretly make power
switchable from one side to another. Then you can run off the fixed
rate when the variable rate is high and then off the variable rate when
it is cheap.
Danny
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
How common is it that power companies charge variable rates
depending on what time it is consumed?
Call your power company and ask. Every place I have lived they have a
large number of (deliberately) confusing rates.
Indeed:
http://www.oge.com/content-oge/es/rc/pdfs/OK/g-GS-TOU.pdf
http://www.oge.com/es/rc/customer-rates.asp
See the "Time-of-Use" section:
http://www.ci.edmond.ok.us/Electric/elec_rates.html
This also is an interesting site showing percentages of power made
from coal, lignite, natural gas, wind, and hydro:
http://www.ompa.com/
http://www.ompa.com/Resource.pdf
Also interesting:
http://www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil/KAWL.lakepage.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So what? They're going to go to the power company and tell them, "You
have to give me 3 phase, 'cause John said so!"? Or perhaps not ask
becauase someone on the EVDL said they couldn't get it?
Give me a break. If you want to know if you can get xyz service from your
power company, go down to their office and ask them. If they offer the
service, or are willing to offer it, then they will be happy to sell it to
you (after all, it's what they do). You might have to be a bit persistent
and ask to talk to someone in charge, but either they will or they won't
sell it to you.
If they won't sell it to you, then NOTHING anyone says on this list will
matter, now will it?
>>If you want to know if there is any chance you can get 3-phase or 480
>>power, ask your power company. They are the only people who can answer
>>this question authoritively.
>
> Even though I was on the information providing end of this one, I can
> certainly answer. Anytime I face dealing with something totally
> unfamiliar to me, I certainly want info from those "in the know"
> before I go asking "the authorities". Especially so in this case,
> since utility bureaucrats tend to have that "I don't care, I don't
> have to" monopolistic arrogance about them. I'd want to know a few
> buzz words. I'd want to know the implications of words I might use,
> just in case there are any trigger words I want to avoid that might
> cause doors, mental and physical, to slam shut on me. I'd also want
> to know words or phrases that might work the other way, greasing the
> skids, as it were.
>
> I imagine the original poster asked in idle curiosity. There wasn't a
> snowball's chance in hell that anyone at a utility would sit down and
> give him an overview of the situation and the problems faced from a
> consumer's view as I did. Unless in management, the utility person
> probably would not have a good overview in the first place and most
> likely would not take the time, in any case.
>
> Besides, what better use of this list than to ask questions?
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am now testing this battery for actual Reserve capacity which the local
dealer had only one of which was over 9 months old.
This battery, a SCS225 is listed to have 225 minutes of reserve capacity at 25
amps. Is also is listed for 130 ampere-hour capacity.
The Reserve Capacity (R.C.) is the number of minutes a battery can be
discharged at 25 amps at 80 degrees Fahrenheit and maintain a voltage above
1.75 volts per cell.
A typical marine deep cycle battery rated for 130 ampere-hours can deliver 6.5
amps for 20 hours (6.5 amperes x 20 hours = 130 amp-hrs)
Actual battery capacity decreases as discharge current increases. A battery
rated at 130 ampere-hours which can deliver 6.5 amps for 20 hours, may only
deliver 26 amperes in 4 hours, (6.5 x 4 = 26 Amps.), resulting in an actual
capacity of 104 ampere-hours. ( 26 amps x 4 hours = 104 AH)
It is more difficult to compare rated ampere-hour capacity with battery reserve
capacity.
For example a SCS 225 battery with a reserve capacity of 225 minutes at 25 amps
is:
225 amps / 60 = 3.75 hrs
3.75 hrs x 25 amps = 93.75 amp-hrs
This battery when new and the negative plates have no sulfating which was not
setting for more than 6 months without any maintainers, will be closer to 100
ampere-hours than the 130 AH listed rating.
Listed - 130 AH @ 25 hrs @ 5 Amps
Tested 100 AH @ 5 hrs @ 20 Amps to 10 volts.
Listed - 57 Mins @ 75 Amps
Tested 120 Mins @ 30 Amps until voltage drops to 10
volts and/or 10 percent charge
Listed - 7.1 hours run time at 15 Amps
Listed - 820 Cranking Amps
The 8 volt battery is a Trojan Group Size T-875. Its has a Reserve Capacity of
295 minutes at 25 Amps and a Reserve Capacity of 75 minutes at 75 amps.
Therefore 75 minutes / 60 = 1.25 hours
1.25 hours x 75 amps = 93.75 amp-hrs.
Therefore about 100 AH is deliver at 75 amps draw for about 75 minutes
discharging a battery down to about 10 percent.
When you purchase batteries for A EV. Take one home for testing. Look on the
offset pad for the date of manufacture. This will be stamp into the lead with
a Letter and a Number.
Example: F2 - which F is the 6th month of the year or June and the 2 is the
last number of the year as in 2002.
Get the dates no earlier than a month past, or order a new group of batteries,
that should not be over 2 weeks old.
I tested out one SCS225 that was 9 months old at a battery dealer with the
following discharge results:
All had 30 amp load during the run time and than charge to 80 percent at 40
amps and finish charge to 100 percent.
No. of Runs Minutes
1st 8
2nd 45
3rd 70
4th 80
5th 120
6th 130
This is where I am at now. It should go to 142 minutes at 30 amps load to be
equal the to the Trojan listed 57 minutes at 75 amps.
The results so far is that 30 amps load at 120 minutes is:
120 min / 60 = 2 hrs
2 hrs x 30 amps = 60 amp-hrs.
Still not close but it's getting there.
The more you cycle a deep cycle battery, about a 100 times according to Trojan,
the ampere hour should be at the maximum rating attain.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Chew<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: Curves of batteries
Hi Peter,
I am looking for volts, capacity, and current draw capabilities at various
DOD and hopefully against temperture as well
The battery i am interested in is the SCS225 Trojan, 12v deep cycle and also
the 8 volt golf car b att, rated at 150Ah, sorry i can't remember the model
number.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the reply, see I would have made more sparks. The controller is
turning out to be somewhat user disectable and I haven't found a whole lot as
of yet. The motor came from EVtrader.com where they sell accessories for GEM
cars. Actually it came with a label on it from ride 4 fun which also sells
pretty much the same stuff. The stock motor may be class H insulation, but they
are sealed, this one is ventillated so it at least has much better cooling.
It's rated at 7.5 hp for 30 minutes so the duty cycle is much higher than the
stock 3.5 hp motor it's replacing.
I have about an ohm of resistance across the field and no resistance across the
armerature, which is the same as the motor it's replacing. There is about 3
mega ohm resistance to the frame on every terminal field and armerature. I'm
still blown away that I managed to do this. The wires are labeled for which
terminal they go on, the new motor has the same terminal configuration as the
stock one. I double checked it before and after the swap so I'm just trying to
figure out where I went wrong.
Thanks again for the tips, I'll go give it a try right now.
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So process of elimination here, if I just hook the
> field in series with the armerature and use jumper
> cables and hook it up to a 12 volt battery I should
> at least be able to get the motor to spin right?
Nope!!!
Connect the F1 and F2 terminals FIRST to 12Vdc, it
should only draw a couple of amps or less.
Then connect A1 and A2 to 12V (the combination doesn't
matter).
Make sure all other connections are off the motor
(control etc.).
This may seem confusing, but here is an example of a
series motor;
+12Vdc S1---S2--A1---A2 -12Vdc
Shunt/sepex connection
+12Vdc F1---A1 -12Vdc F2---A2
The field on this motor has +/-12Vdc and so does the
Armature.
Regarding the initial hookup; Even if you swapped
F1/F2 or A1/A2 it should just turn the wrong
direction, not blow things up. Where did you get this
aftermarket motor? When I worked at GE every motor
for EV's had class H insulation (including all of the
forklifts, this is standard). You may also measure
resistance between motor frame and terminals to see if
there is a short.
Rod
--- Ricky Suiter wrote:
> Ok I swore I knew this but before I fry anything
> else I wanted to ask and make sure I'm doing this
> right. I'm trying to get a 2000 GEM setup to sell to
> a ex neighbor of mine. He lives where there are lots
> of steep hills so I tallked him in to the
> aftermarket ventillated 7.5 hp Class H insulation
> motor for it. So I went and got it in the car today
> and hooked the wires up to it as marked (this should
> be idiot proof, I've swapped a motor in another GEM
> car before). It's got the field weakening setup so
> there are two small wires going to the field and two
> 4 ga wires going to the armerature. But when I
> turned it back on I got an electrical burning smell
> and the motor kind of just shuddered for a few
> seconds then gave me an error code meaing the field
> current is to low and the trouble shooting says if
> the connections are good and the problem still
> exists to replace the controller.
>
> So process of elimination here, if I just hook the
> field in series with the armerature and use jumper
> cables and hook it up to a 12 volt battery I should
> at least be able to get the motor to spin right? I
> partially got the seal on the controller cracked
> open, looks like I fried some capacitors. I'm hoping
> maybe I can attempt to rebuild it, but otherwise my
> only option really is to get a rebuilt GE because a
> lot of the vehicle functions run through the
> controller so I can 't just drop in a generic
> replacment.
>
> thanks in advance.
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Red Insight #559
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> If they won't sell it to you, then NOTHING anyone says on this list will
> matter, now will it?
Like John said, I "asked in idle curiosity".
And also:
>There wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that anyone at a utility
would sit down >and give him an overview of the situation and the
problems faced from a
>consumer's view as I did.
It's impossible to get a hold of anyone at the power company and even
if I did, anyone who knew anything technical wouldn't be working the
phones. Nobody at the power company would have told me anything to
the extent of what John did.
I'm thankful John took the time and expended the effort to tell me
what he knew as he fully explained to me and totally answered all the
whimsical questions I had. Now I'm not obsessed with 480 and 600
volts knowing that I don't need it and can't take advantage of it.
Also:
>You pay (100-50) * $8.88 = $444. That's the demand fee. You still
>get to pay for the kwh's you used.
That was a huge eye opener along with many other details.
Thanks for the info John. Immensely appreciated.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Sam Harper wrote:
So I should ensure that proper cooling is integrated?
The Eteks have no cooling system. If heavily loaded, you need to add
one. Since they are air cooled, this means providing a means to blow a
significant amount of air thru it.
This is especially challenging if the motor is in the wheel. It needs
the most cooling at stall and low speeds; where there is no airflow from
vehicle motion. The air around the wheel is also loaded with dirt,
water, and other debris. So you'd have to connect large flexible hoses
to each wheel, and force air into them from some high-and-dry source
with a big blower.
Room should be ok. I may be able to design an enclosure for them to be
mounted in the undercarriage.
Ok, that would be what I'd try.
Yeah, I agree.
One option might be to use hydraulic wheel motors.
Too expensive.
Not compared to the Etek! They are less than half the price. A Char-Lynn
2000-series wheel motor, of the appropriate torque-speed to drive your
wheel directly without a gear reducer, is about $350 and weighs 28 lbs.
But what about the added weight of the hydraulic pump? Wouldnt this be
less efficient in the long run?
Motors in series act exactly like a normal car differential.
When in series, 48v or 48vx4 (192v)?
Since the Etek is a 48v motor, this means (for example) 2 in series
running from a 96v pack and controller. Beware that motors in series act
*exactly* like a car's differential! If you lift one wheel clear of the
ground and "floor it", that wheel spins at TWICE the speed! With two
Eteks and 96v, it would try to spin at 10,000 rpm. It won't make it --
it will throw itself to pieces with a bang!
Motors in parallel work independently, and act like a limited slip
differential.
When in parallel, 48v with lots of current?
Correct. You might use a 48v 500amp controller for two Eteks in
parallel. Here the thing to beware of is that if one wheel is in the
air, both wheels still turn at about the same speed. However, all the
CURRENT is going to the one that still has traction. The one motor is
doing all the work and getting all the power meant for two.
So, it each case it would be wise to include sensors to detect and
prevent these abnormal cases.
Now with both of these decided, wouldn't it be better to use four
seperate controllers? That way the most power going to one without any
traction will be the maximum of that independent controller?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to split these into two responses.
Lee Hart wrote:
Sam Harper wrote:
So I should ensure that proper cooling is integrated?
The Eteks have no cooling system. If heavily loaded, you need to add
one. Since they are air cooled, this means providing a means to blow a
significant amount of air thru it.
This is especially challenging if the motor is in the wheel. It needs
the most cooling at stall and low speeds; where there is no airflow from
vehicle motion. The air around the wheel is also loaded with dirt,
water, and other debris. So you'd have to connect large flexible hoses
to each wheel, and force air into them from some high-and-dry source
with a big blower.
Room should be ok. I may be able to design an enclosure for them to be
mounted in the undercarriage.
Ok, that would be what I'd try.
Now this may seem insane, or just completely wrong, but I've used
motherboards submersed in mineral oil for heat dissipation because
mineral oil doesn't conduct electricity. Would this work in a motor?
Would it interfere with the magnetics? If it would work, why not seal
the etek, and run mineral oil straight into it? Sorry if this is a
stupid comment.
One option might be to use hydraulic wheel motors.
Too expensive.
Not compared to the Etek! They are less than half the price. A Char-Lynn
2000-series wheel motor, of the appropriate torque-speed to drive your
wheel directly without a gear reducer, is about $350 and weighs 28 lbs.
But the etek's only $375 (plus the cost of a gear box), and you only
have to add the controller, not a hydraulic pump capable of turning four
of them. Nor do you have to have the weight of the hydraulic fluid,
reservoir, and tubing.
Motors in series act exactly like a normal car differential.
When in series, 48v or 48vx4 (192v)?
Since the Etek is a 48v motor, this means (for example) 2 in series
running from a 96v pack and controller. Beware that motors in series act
*exactly* like a car's differential! If you lift one wheel clear of the
ground and "floor it", that wheel spins at TWICE the speed! With two
Eteks and 96v, it would try to spin at 10,000 rpm. It won't make it --
it will throw itself to pieces with a bang!
Motors in parallel work independently, and act like a limited slip
differential.
When in parallel, 48v with lots of current?
Correct. You might use a 48v 500amp controller for two Eteks in
parallel. Here the thing to beware of is that if one wheel is in the
air, both wheels still turn at about the same speed. However, all the
CURRENT is going to the one that still has traction. The one motor is
doing all the work and getting all the power meant for two.
So, it each case it would be wise to include sensors to detect and
prevent these abnormal cases.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I'm new here and this is my first post. I am enclosing a link to a
mid-mount that is intended for circle track racing. This sort of mount is
easy to make for a custom application. You could use extra long bolts to
attach the adaptor plate to the bellhousing and then slide the custom mount
over the section of the threads sticking out beyond the plate and use some
nylocks to cinch the mount against the plate.
I too thought that it would be better to just let the motor hang off the
plate much like an aircooled VW.
A good insulator might be the engine mounts from a Fiat 124 Spyder, coupe
or sedan. Just a big rubber biscuit with 8 or 10mm studs sticking out each
end [ can't remember which size they are :( ].
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/aspx/dept_id.122/display_id.3278/qx/Product.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Toyota Camary
> One thing I thought was odd... That people make mounts to attach to the
> motor to keep it and the transmission in place. But the diameter of the
> transmission front and the diameter of the end of the electric motor would
> make me want to use brackets on the adapter plate between the electric
motor
> and the transmission and not on the motor itself. The electric motor has
at
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Alright, can you list a source for brushed motors and controllers
>> that meet the efficiency of either the Solectria or Siemens AC
>> motors & controllers?
>
> How about a Lynch, Lemco, or Etek motor and 4QD or Sevcon controller?
> This should match the efficiency of the expensive AC drives and still
> cost less.
The Etek is not even in the running, it's at least 5% lower in efficiency
than the Lynch/Lemco.
IIRC the Lynch motor runs at less than 90% efficiency when set for neutral
timing. I'm not sure how efficient the 4QD or Sevcon controllers are, but
the motor alone is already behind.
Assuming we are doing a full size conversion, like the original message,
youll need at least 15-20 kw continuous output.
Thats at least three Sevcon controller $1800, and two Lemco motors $3700,
plus circuit breakers, contactors, etc. Add it all up and youre right at
the price for a more capable (and more efficient) Siemens system.
Of course you couldnt actually use three controllers with two motors
without modifying the controllers. Realistically youd probably need to
go with four of each, but that makes them so much MORE expensive than the
siemens AC system. Even three of each is more expensive.
>
> If cost matters more than efficiency, how about any of the sepex motors
> and controllers now used in golf cars? Or a Curtis 1221R and ADC series
> motor? Or Zapi H2 controller and Kostov series motor?
But they don't match the efficiency of the AC drive systems do they?
The Zapi and Kostov is probably the closest and it's at least 6 or 7% lower.
Other points, last I checked, Curtis refuses to sell their Regen
controllers to hobbyist, and some golf carts are now offering AC systems.
They are much more affordable than the Siemens/Solectria systems if you
are going with low power solutions.
>
>> the Etek doesn't have [interpoles]. In fact most commonly available
>> traction motors don't have them. The few that do are fairly
>> expensive, right up there with AC setups and they have lower
>> overall efficiency than AC setups, at least the ones that I'm
>> aware of.
>
> Eteks and other PM motors don't have (or need) interpoles because they
> never run at weak field. The optimum brush position moves because of
> armature reaction, which occurs with a high armature current and low
> field strength.
Hold on a second...this is Lee talking right? Come on Lee, you know
better. The optimum brush position DOES move on PMDC motors when
switching from motor to regen. I know this from my own experiments and
LEMCO has it clearly posted on their website.
>
> Traction motors with interpoles are fairly common. They are pretty much
> standard on all large traction motors used for truck, buses, trains, and
> other heavy-duty applications. My old Jack & Heinz aircraft generator
> had them. I've had several GE motors with them, and have two
> Westinghouse 240vdc motors with them. Kostov motors have them.
GE doesn't make traction motors any more. As far as I know you can't buy
an ADC motor with interpoles. I can't find anyone who carries new Kostov
motors, are they still in business? Who sells Westinghouse motors? Are
they available/affordable for the hobbyist?
And please, you don't serious consider the Jack & Heinz and efficient
motor do you?
> Traction motors without interpoles are used in the lower-power
> "cheapskate" end of the market, where cost matter more than efficiency
> and they always leave out regen to save money (fork lifts, golf carts,
> etc.) Of course, that's also where many hobby EVers get their parts.
Which is pretty much my original point. It doesn't do us any good to
point out motors that we, as hobbyist, can't buy or that cost more than
better systems(i.e. AC)
>
> To my mind, regen is a nice feature, but not necessary for most people's
> driving situation. The slight range it adds is not usually worth the
> cost increase. I think that's why most EVs leave it off. You mainly see
> it on expensive EVs where cost was not important (though it is beginning
> to appear in golf carts).
I agree which was also part of my original point. Regen typically doesn't
make much, if any, difference, but if you really MUST have regen then, at
this point in time, you are better off buying an AC system.
There, is that acceptably wordy enough?
>
> The AC EV drive systems are very nice. They offer many sophisticated
> features besides regen; a wider rpm range, higher efficiency, etc. But
> you pay significantly more to get these features. And, you'll have a
> system that is virtually unrepairable when it breaks. Each builder has
> to decide if it is worth it.
And at this point, none of the DC Regen systems, of similar power levels,
are much, if any, cheaper or more repairable than the AC systems.
Let's see Curtis won't even sell the regen controllers to hobbyist in the US.
There are a couple really interesting websites about how frustrating, and
unsuccessful, it is to get ZAPI to fix their regen controllers.
I don't know about Sevcon repairability, but its not that great a deal
when you consider it takes four of them to equal the power of one siemens
controller.
>
> I maintain that the efficiency difference between AC and DC systems is
> largely artificial. AC systems are more efficient because they cost
> more. But when both are built to be priced the same, with the same
> features and same quality standards, there is no practical difference in
> efficiency.
Come on Lee, can you say "Brushes"? I'll grant you that it's possible to
build a DC system that is 'almost' as efficient as an AC system, but as
long as motors have brushes, they will lag behind brushless AC motors by a
couple percent.
Unless you are willing to run crazy high voltages, then you might get DC
to only lag AC by 1%.
The main reason AC costs more is because it takes more silicon. Even if
you built a H-bridge controller for the DC motor, the AC system would
still have 50% more silicon.
That and simple market economics.
>
> For example, if you budget $2000 for motor and controller, you can get a
> plain old series motor and PWM controller. Or a plain old 60hz AC
> induction motor and industrial motor controller. Both will be about 80%
> efficient, and neither has regen.
?? Are you talking used or just small?
If you are talking used, I bought a complete Solectria AC system; motor,
controller, dc/dc converter, charger, AND transmission for ~$1700.
Actually it wasn't used, it was brand new, but second hand.
If you are talking new, 8" ADC, Curtis 1231C, circuit breaker, contactor,
pot box works out to about $3,000
And that doesn't include a DC/DC
>
> Or, you can budget $6000 for a motor and controller. This will get you a
> nice Siemens AC induction motor and inverter. Or a big GE sepex motor
> and Sevcon controller. Both will be about 90% efficient and have regen.
Hmm, the best efficiency I've seen from GE motors is about 88% and that
doesn't count the controller. Of course that's a moot point since GE
doesn't make traction motors any more.
>> In real life low voltage systems are generally less efficient than
>> higher voltage systems, at least according to what folks who have
>> tried both have stated on this list.
>
> "Real life" is complicated because people do stupid things. If you know
> what you're doing, you design for about a 2% voltage drop at the system
> voltage and current. Naturally this leads to smaller wire in a 360v 100a
> system than for a 36v 1000a system. Done right, the efficiency is
> exactly the same (2% loss = 98% efficiency). You can find mass-produced
> examples of both.
Sure, if you have the luxury of designing everything to exact
specifications, but in real life most folks have to buy what's available.
The available low voltage controllers tend to be less efficient than the
high voltage ones.
Voltage drop across the brushes on a motor is about the same regardless of
voltage. This drop represents a higher percentage loss in low voltage
system compared to high voltage systems.
And, of course, any voltage drop across a brush is going to be higher than
no voltage drop with no brushes (i.e. AC motors). And most available AC
systems for conversions are high voltage.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
