EV Digest 4605
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 3-Phase power at home?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) New EVs from Asia
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: click , CLick , 4WS Prelude
by "low_b_5" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: New EVs from Asia
by "low_b_5" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sponsorship possibilities?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sponsorship possibilities?
by "Milford E. Sandy III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sponsorship possibilities?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Help me decide!
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Alternative batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Correct AGM finish charge
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV ceramic heater
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Exterior lines
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Sponsorship possibilities?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Like John said, I "asked in idle curiosity".
>
> And also:
>
>>There wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that anyone at a utility
> would sit down >and give him an overview of the situation and the
> problems faced from a
>>consumer's view as I did.
Hmm, I guess it depends on your power company. I'll agree that the folks
who answer the phones are probably clueless.
When I wanted a time-of-use meter, the folks on the phone said they didn't
offer them. So one day I walked into the main office and sat down and
talked with one of the folks in charge there. Nice guy. Turns out they
DO offer an experimental time-of-use program to people who qualify. When
I told him I had an electric vehicle, he said I qualified and I now have a
time-of-use meter.
> It's impossible to get a hold of anyone at the power company and even
> if I did, anyone who knew anything technical wouldn't be working the
> phones. Nobody at the power company would have told me anything to
> the extent of what John did.
That's why I said walk down to the office.
And since John isn't in charge of your power company, his opinion (and
mine) is worth exactly what you paid for it.
I'm not saying John is wrong or right, or that he shouldn't have answered,
or that you shouldn't have asked.
Just that the whole thing was basically useless since you still don't
REALLY know whether or not YOU can get 3-phase power.
> I'm thankful John took the time and expended the effort to tell me
> what he knew as he fully explained to me and totally answered all the
> whimsical questions I had. Now I'm not obsessed with 480 and 600
> volts knowing that I don't need it and can't take advantage of it.
>
> Also:
>
>>You pay (100-50) * $8.88 = $444. That's the demand fee. You still
>>get to pay for the kwh's you used.
>
> That was a huge eye opener along with many other details.
And again, meaningless. Does YOUR power company charge according to this
schedule?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:44 AM 8/21/2005, you wrote:
At 01:33 AM 8/21/2005, Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
If I bought a set of Optimas, and looked after them according to
instructions, and they were dead within a year, I'd be unhappy.
I'd buy my second set from someone else.
Also note that 99.9% of Optima's business is selling single batteries to
people who are NOT using them in series. I doubt they bother with issues
involved with series charging when writing their charging recommendations.
Of course they have studied series charging. They sell a lot of
batteries that are used in series.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I
dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:37 PM 8/18/2005, you wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You were
> debating how long 2A current after CV stage should last and
> if there must be voltage limit. I didn't see a clear answer.
I doubt you will see a clear answer either ;^>
For an 80% discharge, you should use 2 amps Cc for 2 hours. Scale
the CC to the DOD. About 4% of the DOD.
> Assume you have only one Optima (or AGM PbA in general)
> battery.
> So, 2 questions are still in the air:
>
> - After bulk CC and CV (was it thermo-compensated 14.4V?) and
> the current tapered current down to 2A Peter suggested to
> keep these 2A for I think 2 hours no voltage limit, and you
> suggest that it will (might) vent and the voltage limit is
> still needed but higher than for CV stage.
Not so. No voltage limit for CC finish charge.
>
> So which is the case? If the voltage limit is needed for
> this final I in IUI sequence, what is the value?
Optima recommends no voltage limit for this phase. Dr. Olson's test
data suggests that the voltage may reach 16-16.5V per battery during
this phase. If I were going to impose a voltage limit on this phase, it
would be in the 16-16.5V ballpark so that normal batteries can peak
properly while one that would otherwise hit an unacceptable level will
be protected.
However, other AGM manufacturers have completely different
recommendations. Concorde, for instance does not recommend a constant
current finish at all. They state that once the current tapers to
0.5-1% of the C rating (or quits dropping) in the constant voltage
phase, their battery is fully charged and any additional energy put into
it is wasted. Not only that, but they state there is a noticable loss
oc life associated with taking their AGMs over 2.5 (2.55?) volts per
cell. This is in stark contrast to Optima who claim that their battery
must receive this constant current finish and be allowed to hit
2.6-2.7V/cell in order to be fully charged.
> Now, main question:
>
> If you don't have limit and strictly time it, you put exactly
> 4Ah in if you keep 2A for 2 hours.
> So is the goal is to put fixed Ah in after IU while
> preventing possible venting by clamping, or really
> no_voltage_limit at 2A (or less) is the phenomena which
> renders the battery 100% filled up?
If you calmp the voltage, you will be unable to ensre that a target
amount of Ah is returned since in practice the current will rapidly
taper off to a very low value as soon as the voltage limit is hit. It
can therefore take a *very* long (impractically long) time to force the
battery to accept the required additional Ah after hitting the voltage
limit.
> In other words can I be sure that extra 4Ah will *always*
> fill up the battery to 100% SOC regardless if the rate was
> 2A or less and if the voltage was limited or not (provided
> battery didn't vent)?
I think the answer is no. My basis for this is looking at the Hawker
charge recommendations. For their AGMs, they specify a voltage limit
for the final constant current phase, and state that the *duration* of
the phase must be maintained even if the voltage limit is reached. This
suggests that it is not (just) the Ah returned in this phase that is
important, but also that the battery is maintained at an elevated
voltage for an appropriate amount of time.
Note also that 4Ah is not a hard and fast limit. 2hrs at 2A was
determined by Optima to be appropriate for their batteries following an
80% discharge. There is some question as to whether the 2A rate itself
is critical (i.e. 1A may be too low to provide the same benefit even if
maintained for 4hrs), however, it is generally agreed that the duration
of this phase can be shorter for shallower DOD.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:17 PM 8/18/2005, you wrote:
Thanks Roger.
It is odd Optima suggests no limit at final "I", and yet Rich
is claiming that this WILL vent it sooner or later. It is
contradictory and I have hard time choosing whom to believe.
Belive the carefully controlled laboratory tests done at Optima.
Yes, they will vent.
Has anyone done charging with 2A for 2 hours no voltage limit?
Did it vent?
Yes. Yes.
Peter? I suppose you do charge with no limit as Optima recommends,
were you able to reach decent Optima life as Rich (who limits
max voltage) claims?
I did it in my Wabbit.
Any comments Rich why (according to you) would Optima suggest
charging method which kills their batteries in a few hundred cycles??
Every charge algorithm is a compromise. There are competing aging
processes. If you don't fully charge the negative plate, it will sulphate.
If you do fully charge the negative plate, you will overcharge the positive
plate and you will lose some electrolyte. By overcharging about 4%, you use
up a little electrolyte but you keep the negative plate from sulphating.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with what Roger has said in this post entirely. He has it 100% correct.
At 06:52 PM 8/19/2005, you wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thanks Roger.
No problem.
> It is odd Optima suggests no limit at final "I", and yet Rich
> is claiming that this WILL vent it sooner or later. It is
> contradictory and I have hard time choosing whom to believe.
I don't believe that Optima ever claimed that their battery will not (or
never) vent with this 2A for 2hrs regimen. Indeed, what Dr. Olson
stated in a presentation I attended is that although the battery may
vent, that even if all of this energy went into gassing less than 1g of
H2O would be lost. Note, however, that his presentation specified a 2A
for 1hr finish, not 2A for 2hr, and this recommendation was based on
superior cycle life with 100% DOD cycles (not 80% as I earlier
mis-remembered).
> Has anyone done charging with 2A for 2 hours no voltage
> limit? Did it vent?
Yes, I have actually done the 4A for 16hrs 'conditioning' charge on a
dozen YTs with no discernable venting. In my experience, YT vents
'click' as they vent, and not only did these not click, but there was no
discernable hissing when I placed my ear next to each vent. Voltages
and current were logged continuously and the peak voltages did get quite
high on some modules. Capacity of each module was tested before and
after, and it did increase.
On the other hand, I have had some of these same YTs vent with less than
15V and 100mA applied to them. I don't believe that regs will prevent a
YT from ever venting, and I don't believe that applying a 2A finish to a
string of YTs is guaranteed to vent any or all of them. I do believe
that if one cycles their YT shallowly and blindly applies 2A for 1hr (or
2hr) instead of an appropriately reduced duration, they will greatly
increase the likelyhood of venting their batteries. I also believe that
regs will reduce the odds of venting one's YTs, especially when using a
dumb charger (including a Zivan in this case). I strongly suspect that
the use of regs results in chronically undercharged YTs, but may still
result in longer life than not using them simply because without their
protection a dumb charger will kill them even faster.
> Peter? I suppose you do charge with no limit as Optima
> recommends, were you able to reach decent Optima life as Rich
> (who limits max voltage) claims?
>
> Any comments Rich why (according to you) would Optima suggest
> charging method which kills their batteries in a few hundred cycles??
Bear in mind Victor, that while Rich and John (Wayland) claim great
cycle life for their batteries, both appear to be estimating this
without having (or providing) any hard data of the actual number of
cycles and average or maximum DOD, or what remaining capacity their
packs have. The best data I've seen has been that of Al Godfrey for his
144V '914. His typical DOD was 50% (or shallower) and his E-meter
logged something like 1200-1500 cycles by the time he sold the car.
Even so, he did not have a firm measurement of how much remaining
capacity the pack had (I believe his feeling was that it may not have
been all that much more than 50% of new). He had Zivan chargers and
Rudman regs. I believe (but could certainly be mistaken) that for most
of the life of Blue Meanie's pack, John had no regulators and charged
with variacs or bad boy/ugly box-type fully manual chargers.
Experienced and conscientious as John may be (and I do have great
respect for him), I have difficulty believing that a manual setup like
this is likely to yield a greater pack life than Al's system. Likewise
with Rich; I'm pretty sure that the first time I got a close look at
Goldie it (surprisingly) didn't have regs installed, and the most
sophisticated charger I've ever seen him use has been one of his PFC
units. I've respect for both John and Rich and fully believe that they
got great life from their packs, but without better information about
how many cycles they really got, how deep those cycles were, and what
the remaining capacity of the pack was at end of life it is impossible
(for me at least) to make any judgement about the superiority or
inferiority of their charge regimens to those recommended by Optima.
The difficulty facing you, I believe, is of making an algorithm that
will optimally charge "any" VRLA battery. Optimas and Orbitals have
similar enough requirements that you could succeed here, however, it may
not be possible to treat Hawkers or Concordes the same way.
Cheers,
Roger.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:16 AM 8/21/2005, you wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> why would Optima suggest
> charging method which kills their batteries in a few hundred cycles??
Optima would MUCH rather have us buying new batteries every year
instead of every 8 years...
Typically, and Optima lasts ten years in your ICE car. This is why
people buy them is that they last so long. Folks buy an Optima because they
know that they last longer than other brands.
If Optima wanted you to replace their batteries often, they would
tell you to use a very simple CV charge instead of confusing you with a
complicated three-part charging algorithm.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 10:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Here's a nice roundup of the new electric cars that
will be coming out of Japan and China in the near
future:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106930
sherry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve , Why did you abandon the project ?
I may be intrested in the car Just for the adaptor plate.
In looking around Just the plate will cost that much. So why not have
a spare car too. Where are you located ?
Phil
> Your not going to belive this But I have one of these , Its a ev
project I
> started with sombody who bailed 1/2 way through, I made the adptor
plate and
> battery boxed ect , and had it on the road , till I needed the motor
for
> somthing else.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Intresting! But what will they look like ...? ?
From: Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Here's a nice roundup of the new electric cars that
> will be coming out of Japan and China in the near
> future:
> http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106930
>
> sherry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Milford,
Depending on your state, there may be grants
available for enviro-friendly projects. HOWEVER,
They usually require proven success. If you PARTNERED
with a local junior college mech-tech class,
approaching the school board with an idea AND
potential funding sources, you'd be happy, and more
importantly, students would benefit. You may find a
couple of instructors who wish to join your cause.
In our case, we converted a Ford Ranger to 72 Volts EV
for use as a custodial truck. While top speed was 25
mph, any of us could've upped the size of the pack,
and done the same project for ourselves the next time,
but for 65+ mph, 120V.
RE: Bradley, or Opel. Sorry, but IMHO I think you'll
achieve more success with a car that they were running
25,000 of them per MONTH (Civic, etc.) because as
parts break, you want easy, fast replacements.
RE: Sponsorship: The people making controllers
(AllTrax, Curtis, Auburn, etc.) aren't exactly
swimming in money (YET)! So don't count on them
sponsoring you. Beyond Petroleum? (BP) possibly.
Even Texaco & Exxon have do-good projects. Involving
kids, especially minority and low-income often is a
requirement of such do-good grants.
FYI I've written grants, (in my case for public
schools), so am speaking from experience.
I wish you the best!
--- "Milford E. Sandy III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Forgive me if this seems like an insane post, but
> it's 5:30 in the morning
> and I have a crazy idea that I need to get out. I've
> been thinkink the last
> couple of days, NJ isn't exactly a hotbed for EV
> activity. As mentioned in
> one of the responses to my last post though, it is a
> good place to own one.
> Gas prices are rapidly approaching $3.00/gal., the
> terrain here is
> relatively flat, the congestion of traffic makes it
> unnecessary to have
> rediculously high performance, and given it's status
> as the most densly
> populated state in the country, it seems a prime
> location for reducing
> emissions.
>
> I would like nothing more than to build (or
> preferably buy) an EV, my
> problem is that I only make $9.45 an hour and have
> ZERO funds to pull off
> such a project. Even if I had the money, I live in
> an apartment, and lack
> the facilities, so a conversion would have to be
> done at a shop. I am
> currently looking to change jobs to one that would
> hopefully put me into the
> 30-40k/year range, which will help. I was wondering
> though, if there are any
> companies or organizations out there who offer
> sponsorship to people who
> want to do this. My idea is to have a car with a
> classic sort of look. My 2
> first choices are the Opel GT and (preferably) the
> Bradley GT. Do it up kind
> of like a modern tuner car and take it to all sorts
> of shows, like classic
> car shows, and import tuner type events with the
> companies' logos all over
> the car. I know there are companies in the import
> aftermarket who do this on
> a regular basis to promote thier products so I
> thought it might be worth
> looking into.
>
> I really believe that this whole EV movement is a
> great cause and I'd love
> to be a part of it by being a catalyst for change
> and promoting interest
> here in NJ. I've already gotten a couple of my
> co-workers and friends
> thinking just by talking to them about it. Like I
> said, forgive me if this
> is a crazy idea, but I had to put it out there.
> Thanks for listening
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the reply.
This is good info. How would I find out about getting involved with these
programs? Would I be able to get involved in the conversion process at all,
or would it have to be done strictly by the students? I understand the issue
of parts breaking, this is why I would rather have a Bradley GT, it's a VW
based kit car and parts for it are aparently very cheap and easy to find. I
like this car because I want something that would draw some attention.
There are about 200,000 honda civics around here. almost everyone owns one,
and I am not looking for something that will just blend into the crowd.
Thanks again for the info.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Sponsorship possibilities?
Dear Milford,
Depending on your state, there may be grants
available for enviro-friendly projects. HOWEVER,
They usually require proven success. If you PARTNERED
with a local junior college mech-tech class,
approaching the school board with an idea AND
potential funding sources, you'd be happy, and more
importantly, students would benefit. You may find a
couple of instructors who wish to join your cause.
In our case, we converted a Ford Ranger to 72 Volts EV
for use as a custodial truck. While top speed was 25
mph, any of us could've upped the size of the pack,
and done the same project for ourselves the next time,
but for 65+ mph, 120V.
RE: Bradley, or Opel. Sorry, but IMHO I think you'll
achieve more success with a car that they were running
25,000 of them per MONTH (Civic, etc.) because as
parts break, you want easy, fast replacements.
RE: Sponsorship: The people making controllers
(AllTrax, Curtis, Auburn, etc.) aren't exactly
swimming in money (YET)! So don't count on them
sponsoring you. Beyond Petroleum? (BP) possibly.
Even Texaco & Exxon have do-good projects. Involving
kids, especially minority and low-income often is a
requirement of such do-good grants.
FYI I've written grants, (in my case for public
schools), so am speaking from experience.
I wish you the best!
--- "Milford E. Sandy III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey all,
Forgive me if this seems like an insane post, but
it's 5:30 in the morning
and I have a crazy idea that I need to get out. I've
been thinkink the last
couple of days, NJ isn't exactly a hotbed for EV
activity. As mentioned in
one of the responses to my last post though, it is a
good place to own one.
Gas prices are rapidly approaching $3.00/gal., the
terrain here is
relatively flat, the congestion of traffic makes it
unnecessary to have
rediculously high performance, and given it's status
as the most densly
populated state in the country, it seems a prime
location for reducing
emissions.
I would like nothing more than to build (or
preferably buy) an EV, my
problem is that I only make $9.45 an hour and have
ZERO funds to pull off
such a project. Even if I had the money, I live in
an apartment, and lack
the facilities, so a conversion would have to be
done at a shop. I am
currently looking to change jobs to one that would
hopefully put me into the
30-40k/year range, which will help. I was wondering
though, if there are any
companies or organizations out there who offer
sponsorship to people who
want to do this. My idea is to have a car with a
classic sort of look. My 2
first choices are the Opel GT and (preferably) the
Bradley GT. Do it up kind
of like a modern tuner car and take it to all sorts
of shows, like classic
car shows, and import tuner type events with the
companies' logos all over
the car. I know there are companies in the import
aftermarket who do this on
a regular basis to promote thier products so I
thought it might be worth
looking into.
I really believe that this whole EV movement is a
great cause and I'd love
to be a part of it by being a catalyst for change
and promoting interest
here in NJ. I've already gotten a couple of my
co-workers and friends
thinking just by talking to them about it. Like I
said, forgive me if this
is a crazy idea, but I had to put it out there.
Thanks for listening
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering though, if there are any companies or organizations
out there who offer sponsorship to people who want to do this.
Great idea! If anyone is handing out free EVs, I'll take one too! ;-)
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Come on Lee, can you say "Brushes"? I'll grant you that it's possible
to
build a DC system that is 'almost' as efficient as an AC system, but as
long as motors have brushes, they will lag behind brushless AC motors
by a
couple percent.
But on the AC systems (except BLDC) you have to say "Induction" to
create the magnetic field in the armature. Not much (if any) better
that brushes when you realize that motors need an air gap.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bill,
I'm back from another 240km round trip by Skoda electric pickup to cottage
country in the "mountains" north of Montreal. (Actually, some grades at 18%
are probably worse than the the roads we have through the Rockies in Canada,
and I have to climb them in first gear.)
Switching is simpler than you describe it, for this pickup. There is
nothing more to do than "When I notice the Voltmeter says the Li Ion pack is
less than 100V at no load, coasting, (a suitable maximum charging voltage
for 7 12V AGM batteries), switch the contactor on".
It doesn't matter much either if I forget about it and switch it, say, 20
minutes later, I will just miss out on getting stronger regen recharging of
the stiffer dual battery pack, if I was doing stop and go driving.
Typically I switch the contactor when the pack is loaded while I am
driving and not coasting, and thus the Voltage is lower and low or no
(charging direction) current is switched by the contactor. If I switch when
accelerating and the AGM pack is then supplying some current through the
diode, that is fine as in that case I am switching less than 1 Volt
difference in bypassing the diode. And if I happen to switch under light
load, the voltages could be matched and no current will flow through the
contactor at that instant or typically there is only a few volts difference
and light current (in the direction of charging the AGM pack), to switch.
It is only important to remember to switch the contactor off when charging,
at least before the packs get charged up to too high a voltage for the 7
AGM, 84V nominal battery string. With the contactor open (off) the AGM
string is charged through a Zener diode array and light bulb in series, all
across the now open contactor, to limit the charging voltage and current.
This is so that the li ion pack can be charged to the 10V higher it needs,
from the same battery charger.
For the 28 cell li/ 8 AGM battery packs in the hatchback, the contactor
normally stays switched on all the time except when the car is parked, not
charging. (Assuming a proper 96V or higher controller is in service- for
now, with the 84V controller temporarily back in the car, I have to wait and
switch the contactor after I have driven for 6 to 8 km, which I do at a time
of light or no loading.)
Best Regards,
Doug
---- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
Doug Hartley wrote:
through a diode at first and after a bit of discharge, joined directly by
manually switching on a contactor.
Hi, Doug. How do you decide when to switch and what steps to you take to
do
it? Do you let off the throttle, see if the battery voltages are about
the
same, switch on the contactor, then apply throttle again?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> PbA has lowest cost per mile only for the life of that PbA battery.
> If you put in a good NiCd battery providing total X miles and
> calculate how many PbA packs you'd need to replace to cover the
> same distance, most likely NiCd solution will have lower cost per
> mile *for all these total miles*.
Victor, I think you are saying a more expensive battery can have a lower
cost per mile because it has a longer life (i.e. lasts for more miles).
This is true. Even though nicads are 3 times more expensive than
lead-acid AGMs, they can last more than 3 times longer. Thus nicads can
"beat" AGMs in cost per mile.
However, I said "Most EVs use plain old flooded lead-acid batteries
because they have the lowest initial cost and lowest cost per mile."
That is literally true. *Flooded* lead-acids like golf cart batteries
are less expensive to buy (1/2 the cost of AGMs, and 1/6 the cost of
nicads). And, they last twice as many miles as AGMs, giving them about a
4:1 advantage over AGMs.
The flooded lead-acids only last about 1/3 as long as nicads; but they
6:1 cheaper. This means they beat even nicads in cost per mile.
But other factors are often more important to people than cost per mile.
AGMs and nicads deliver more peak power, so your EV is faster. AGMs are
clean and don't need watering (low maintenance). Lead-acids are much
easier to recycle. And of course, if you don't drive many miles a year
and/or don't plan to keep the EV long, a long-life battery will die of
old age before you wear it out -- a short-life battery may be cheaper in
your situation.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>> Why would Optima suggest charging method which kills their
>> batteries in a few hundred cycles?
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Optima would MUCH rather have us buying new batteries every year
> instead of every 8 years.
No; it's no that simple.
A battery manufacturer specifies a charging algorithm that insures that
the *minimum* life is at least what they claim. This minimizes their
warranty cost. They claimed 250 cycles, you got 250 cycles, so you're
happy.
To do this, their algorithms err on the side of overcharging. This will
slowly kill the battery, a little on each charge cycle. But each cycle
delivers more amphours, so the battery is less likely to run "dead". It
also equalizes on every cycle automatically, so you are less likely to
have balance problems (one cell goes dead while the rest have lots of
charge left).
If they instead promoted a charging algorithm that put in an "optimum"
charge, the battery would indeed last longer -- *IF* you followed it
accurately. But real-world chargers are often pretty bad. Half the time
they would err in the direction of undercharging. This leads to a much
faster "death" than overcharging. Undercharging means less amphour
capacity, so the battery is more likely to run completely dead and be
seriously damaged. The battery won't get equalized, leading to
imbalances between cells. The plates won't fully charge, leading to
sulfation and early death.
So some customers would get double the rated life (the ones whose
chargers were accurate enough to actually follow the algorithm). But
other customers (with cheap chargers) would get half the rated life.
They would be mad, and blame the battery, and file warranty claims.
So, the manufacturers specify an algorithm that minimizes warranty
claims, rather than maximizing battery life.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> Suppose I placed a heavy cardboard box with two wires hanging
>> out of it on your desk and said, "Victor, charge this battery."
>> How would you do it?
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> This is interesting Lee, but I'm suspecting a user at least
> knows what chemistry battery he deals with.
The user knows; but does the charger? Most chargers face exactly this
situation. The user connects any old battery. The charger has
essentially no operator controls; maybe a voltage switch; that's all.
Users expect the charger to figure everything else out for itself.
> If you put a black box in front of me saying "Charge" it, in
> theory first I need to know if there is really a battery in it.
Correct. So a real-world charger should at least check to see what
voltage the battery is at now. From this, it can decide if it is indeed
a battery, if it is connected with the right polarity, and if its
voltage is somewhere within a range the charger can deal with.
If these conditions aren't met, it should at least do no harm and not be
harmed itself. And most chargers do this. You can't get a charger UL
listed if it is damaged by connecting a battery of the wrong voltage or
reversed polarity.
But I see your point; it's rare for a charger to go very far towards
guessing what the "correct" battery voltage is. That's why the most
common control on a charger (and often the only control) is the battery
voltage select.
> The problem is there is no empirical data for adjustments needed
> per all these conditions. Everyone knows it changes. Formalize in
> numbers how.
Quite a lot of formal data exists on how you should charge various
chemistry batteries at various states of charge, temperatures, ages,
etc. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty good. For flooded lead-acids for
instance, we know that the zero-current voltage varies between
1.95-2.12v/cell from 0-100% SOC, the gassing point is 2.37v/cell, that
it falls to 2.1v/cell as the cell ages, and the charge voltage is
temperature compensated at -0.003v/cell/deg.C.
The challenge is that most chargers don't know whether the battery is a
flooded or AGM; don't know its state of charge, temperature, or age.
They have to guess at all these things.
> Compensation for the temp, amount of cycles (age) average DOD during
> use ("abuse factor") can all *easily* be implemented using look up
> tables.
Yes... if the charger has sensors to provide all this data! But rarely
is this the case. You would have to configure the charger to exactly
what battery it is to charge, and that charger would have to stay
connected for its entire life. The charger would need to monitor
everything that happens to the battery; charge/discharge currents,
dates, times, temperatures, etc. Quite a challenge!
My view is that even if you did, such a charger that depends exclusively
on calculated theoretical data would fail. Batteries are too
individualistic. Each one is unique. Under identical circumstances, they
will do different things. So, a charger has to adapt to the conditions.
This is why I said you should start by assuming YOU are the charger.
Figure out what YOU, as a human being, do to charge a battery when you
have insufficient knowledge of its type and condition.
Take all this talk about AGM finish charge for example. I maintain that
there *is* no correct way to do it. You have to charge the battery,
watch what it does as it approaches full, and act accordingly.
A "good" AGM's apparent internal resistance rises sharply when it hits
full. If you are charging at a constant 1-2 amps, the voltage will
quickly go over 16v; if you are charging at a constant voltage, the
current rapidly falls to almost nothing. It's full! You can stop
charging.
If the cells are at different states of charge, this threshold is a lot
less abrupt. It needs equalizing, so you have to charge longer. But
there is only so much space inside for gas; you can't put in more than
perhaps 1-2 extra amphours on this charge cycle or it will vent.
If you see a voltage *drop* at constant current, something is going
wrong. You're overcharging, or the battery is heating up and/or venting,
or it's just plain bad.
If the battery is old, its end-of-charge voltage is lower, and its
end-of-charge current is higher. How much so depends on the kind of life
it has led -- tender loving care, or regularly abused?
If the internal resistance is high even during bulk charge, the battery
probably has grid corrosion. You'll have to charge it (and discharge it)
a lot slower if you expect to keep using it.
If it is sulfated (long periods sitting around in a discharged state),
its amphour capacity is low and it will behave like a lower-capacity
battery. If it is also old, its basic charging voltage and currents will
be altered as already mentioned.
Finally, you could have one or more bad cells. They can range anywhere
from shorted to open to reversed (at -2v!). About all you can say is
that the battery's behaviour will be "abnormal" -- it won't fit any of
the above patterns.
A human "charger" will figure all this out. You can probably do it
yourself -- but it will be hard to capture this "expert knowledge" in an
automated system.
If I had to make the attempt, I think I would permanently "marry" the
charger to the battery. The charger follows the manufacturer's
recommended charge cycle, and records what happens. Then on each
subsequent cycle, it compares the results. If it sees capacity improve
(and it should as the battery gets broken in), all is well.
But the charger needs to experiment. The manufacturer's algorithm will
overcharge -- so the charger should slowly back off the overcharge. See
what happens. At first, nothing. But when it sees a capacity decrease,
charge harder (equalize) on the next cycle.
Likewise, it needs to adapt the voltage and current steps as the battery
temperature changes, and as it ages.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Rod Hower wrote:
> I have a 120Vac heater core that is running off a
> 156Vdc pack. This pushes the heater to temperatures
> that are higher than some plastic ducting can
> withstand. I was thinking about using a bimetalic
> switch in the heat path to turn off the heater. This
> was used on many older style clothes dryers. Any
> advice on the bimetalic switch part number would be
> appreciated (or at least a web site for a range of
> temp switches so I can choose one that may work in
> this application).
These are all rated for AC, so you would have to use it to switch a 12v
relay or contactor (which in turn switches the heater).
But the ones built for dryers are non-adjustable and of rather low
quality. You might want to use an adjustable thermostat. They are
available with better quality contacts, and you can adjust them to get
the temperature desired.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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While driving my gasoline E150 camper van on the highway again I started
to wonder if I could add a fairing to the front of it so it wouldn't
have the drag coefficient of a garden shed. Well, just a thought.
Realistically it would cut off the radiator's cooling and I would have
to remove it to get into a parking space.
Anyways, I saw mention of taping up seams etc to reduce the drag
coefficient. Does anybody go so far as to reshape the front end of a
conversion? You don't even need the radiator cooling anymore, a large
reason for the front to be as blunt as it is.
Danny
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Do a google search: "grants" "transportation"
"environment" "texas" (or whatever).
Whether you are a participant, or a facilitator
depends on your level of expertise, and the liability
insurance of the school. In most cases, you will need
to be enrolled. I'd definitely have my ducks in a
line RE: costs, time involved, other partners (ie,
have the electrical engineering classes/department, as
well as mech/tech).
--- "Milford E. Sandy III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> This is good info. How would I find out about
> getting involved with these
> programs? Would I be able to get involved in the
> conversion process at all,
> or would it have to be done strictly by the
> students? I understand the issue
> of parts breaking, this is why I would rather have a
> Bradley GT, it's a VW
> based kit car and parts for it are aparently very
> cheap and easy to find. I
> like this car because I want something that would
> draw some attention.
> There are about 200,000 honda civics around here.
> almost everyone owns one,
> and I am not looking for something that will just
> blend into the crowd.
> Thanks again for the info.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Sponsorship possibilities?
>
>
> > Dear Milford,
> > Depending on your state, there may be grants
> > available for enviro-friendly projects. HOWEVER,
> > They usually require proven success. If you
> PARTNERED
> > with a local junior college mech-tech class,
> > approaching the school board with an idea AND
> > potential funding sources, you'd be happy, and
> more
> > importantly, students would benefit. You may find
> a
> > couple of instructors who wish to join your cause.
> > In our case, we converted a Ford Ranger to 72
> Volts EV
> > for use as a custodial truck. While top speed was
> 25
> > mph, any of us could've upped the size of the
> pack,
> > and done the same project for ourselves the next
> time,
> > but for 65+ mph, 120V.
> > RE: Bradley, or Opel. Sorry, but IMHO I think
> you'll
> > achieve more success with a car that they were
> running
> > 25,000 of them per MONTH (Civic, etc.) because as
> > parts break, you want easy, fast replacements.
> >
> > RE: Sponsorship: The people making controllers
> > (AllTrax, Curtis, Auburn, etc.) aren't exactly
> > swimming in money (YET)! So don't count on them
> > sponsoring you. Beyond Petroleum? (BP) possibly.
> > Even Texaco & Exxon have do-good projects.
> Involving
> > kids, especially minority and low-income often is
> a
> > requirement of such do-good grants.
> >
> > FYI I've written grants, (in my case for public
> > schools), so am speaking from experience.
> >
> > I wish you the best!
> >
> > --- "Milford E. Sandy III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> Forgive me if this seems like an insane post,
> but
> >> it's 5:30 in the morning
> >> and I have a crazy idea that I need to get out.
> I've
> >> been thinkink the last
> >> couple of days, NJ isn't exactly a hotbed for EV
> >> activity. As mentioned in
> >> one of the responses to my last post though, it
> is a
> >> good place to own one.
> >> Gas prices are rapidly approaching $3.00/gal.,
> the
> >> terrain here is
> >> relatively flat, the congestion of traffic makes
> it
> >> unnecessary to have
> >> rediculously high performance, and given it's
> status
> >> as the most densly
> >> populated state in the country, it seems a prime
> >> location for reducing
> >> emissions.
> >>
> >> I would like nothing more than to build (or
> >> preferably buy) an EV, my
> >> problem is that I only make $9.45 an hour and
> have
> >> ZERO funds to pull off
> >> such a project. Even if I had the money, I live
> in
> >> an apartment, and lack
> >> the facilities, so a conversion would have to be
> >> done at a shop. I am
> >> currently looking to change jobs to one that
> would
> >> hopefully put me into the
> >> 30-40k/year range, which will help. I was
> wondering
> >> though, if there are any
> >> companies or organizations out there who offer
> >> sponsorship to people who
> >> want to do this. My idea is to have a car with a
> >> classic sort of look. My 2
> >> first choices are the Opel GT and (preferably)
> the
> >> Bradley GT. Do it up kind
> >> of like a modern tuner car and take it to all
> sorts
> >> of shows, like classic
> >> car shows, and import tuner type events with the
> >> companies' logos all over
> >> the car. I know there are companies in the import
> >> aftermarket who do this on
> >> a regular basis to promote thier products so I
> >> thought it might be worth
> >> looking into.
> >>
> >> I really believe that this whole EV movement is
> a
> >> great cause and I'd love
> >> to be a part of it by being a catalyst for change
> >> and promoting interest
> >> here in NJ. I've already gotten a couple of my
> >> co-workers and friends
> >> thinking just by talking to them about it. Like I
> >> said, forgive me if this
> >> is a crazy idea, but I had to put it out there.
> >> Thanks for listening
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> came out of the steering
> > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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