EV Digest 4606
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) No attachments or HTML, please
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: No attachments or HTML, please
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: No attachments or HTML, please
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Best method. 50% / 30 sec CC (was: Correct AGM finish charge)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Correct AGM finish charge (Was: Re: PFC-30)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Best method. 50% / 30 sec CC (was: Correct AGM finish charge)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Help me decide!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Curves of batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Best method. 50% / 30 sec CC (was: Correct AGM finish
charge)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Best method. 50% / 30 sec CC (was: Correct AGM finish charge)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: New EVs from Asia
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: ODB info?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) ODB info?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: 220VAC Iota
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: ODB info?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dube wrote:
> Typically, an Optima lasts ten years in your ICE car.
That's completely true.
But why don't our strings of YT's last nearly that long? How can I
get maximum life out of my string of AGM's? Are regs what it takes?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
>When these are available and "cheap", will they offer AGM type output?
According to Marc Kohler of Valence, their U1 will do 300A, not only 150A per
http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge_Datasheet.pdf. Their U24 will do 600A
instead of 200A, and will do 200A "up a long hill".
>Also, how long should these Valence batteries last?
According to the above link, they will be down to 60% capacity after 10 years
due to age only. They are rated for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD.
Chris Jones
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> A battery manufacturer specifies a charging algorithm that insures that
> the *minimum* life is at least what they claim.
We need an absolute end all, be all algorithm to get maximum life from
our AGM's.
I will potentially have some charger some day and I want it to be
*dialed*. No questions about if it's over or under charging the
batteries. Is this absolutely going to require the purchase of regs?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a reminder (mainly for the newbies) that the EV list doesn't accept
file attachments or other MIME-encoded material.
Please set your email program to transmit only plain text, not "rich text"
or HTML. If you don't, some people may not be able to read your messages.
I know that some people actually have to use their mail reader's command to
reveal the source when messages are truncated. Some mail clients, such as
Pegasus (http://www.pmail.com), can be configured to choose the plain
version even when a fancy version of a message exists. However, many
common email clients - I think including Micro$oft's - don't allow this or
else make it difficult to configure. (If you're looking for a windoze
based, flexible, reliable mail client which improves your system security, I
can recommend Pegasus - and it's 100% freeware.)
If all else fails, Yahoo Mail can be configured to send plain text. Maybe
someone else here can recommend another webmail service that can be so
persuaded, too.
Thanks folks!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
All,
The primary reason I mounted the breaker on the control board was safety,
which Evan points out, but what I didn't mention was that I don't like
leaning over a motor bay more than necessary, and I've always approached my
conversion with the thought of modular construction for a future business.
Bob Batson's (EV's of America) S10 conversion plans show a "control board",
which can be wired up outside of the vehicle and then installed (with the
controller, DC-DC, contactors, DC fuses, 12V relays, etc. mounted on the
board). My control board was loosely based on his, without the controller
and DC-DC mounted on it, and after installing the control board I simple
plug the 350 amp disconnect into the battery pack along with the 12V
ignition wires, etc. I remember testing my first control board "on the
bench" by applying 12V to the accessory power fuse, and applying 12V to the
ignition fuse, since I'm running relays with the ignition signal, and then
checking that the contactors and relays were wired correctly. This is much
easier to do outside of the vehicle, and I did the same thing when I
redesigned a new control board after adding batteries to the S10, and when
I upgraded the RX-7. As far as road spray, feel free to build a "control
box" if that is a concern under your hood. Also, the PTO (power take off)
cable I'm using isn't like a cheap choke cable, as it is overly rugged and
I'm confident it won't break in an emergency pull!
Hope this clarification helps,
BB
>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:36:32 +0100
>From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Putting breaker under the radio
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>On 8/18/05, Joe Strubhar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Lawrence, I really don't think that putting a breaker with the HV wiring in
>> the passenger compartment is a bad idea - might be if you had 250+ volts,
>> but not very many conversions are going to go that high.
>>
>>
>> I have mine mounted just under the dash in the center, and I don't think
>> that it is a serious hazard at all - I'm just an electrical contractor, what
>> do I know, right?
>
>Most "factory built" designs keep the HV out of the passenger
>compartment because they're worried about what might happen in the
>event of a bad enough crash. A high power electrical fire on the
>outside is bad enough, but you really wouldn't want one under the dash
>if your legs are stuck there and you can't get the door open, say.
>Meter wires are a safe enough from that point of view if they're
>properly fused, but there's still opportunity for an electric shock if
>someone unfamiliar with the vehicle is working on it.
>
>So I don't think it's a bad general rule to keep HV wiring out of the cabin.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> >
>>> > The problem with that is that it exposes the breaker to road spray and
>>> > dirt,
>>> > unless it's encased in a box or something. I'm concerned about this.
>>> > Also,
>>> > what if the cable breaks in an emergency?
>>> >
>>> > I like to mount the main breaker under the seat and bring the hv wiring
>> up
>>> > through the floorpan. That's not really a good strategy because it
>> still
>>> > puts the hv wiring inside the passenger compartment, even if it's just
>>> > a
>>> > couple of feet.
>>> >
>>> > I don't have a good answer for this, but I definitely don't like under
>> the
>>> > hood and I'm uneasy about mechanical cable connections. Other
>>> > thoughts?
>>> > Anybody?
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:49:49 -0600
>From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Lawrence,
>No, you shouldn't bring the cables into the passenger compartment. It's a
>safety thang! I mounted my breaker on the control board under the hood
>(along with the contactors, DC fuses (traction pack, heater, gauges),
>etc.) I then mounted a PTO (power take off) cable with a handle in the
>dash and connected that to the breaker for an emergency disconnect.
>Hope this helps,
>BB
>
>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:20:44 -0700
>>
>>In the Aspire there is a nifty spot under the factory radio that would just
>>fit the Heinemann breaker. Good access. Protected by plastic on both
>>sides. The down side is bringing both cables into the passenger compartment
>>but that too will be behind plastic. Anybody done this?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Jones wrote:
> According to Marc Kohler of Valence, their U1 will do 300A, not only 150A per
> http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge_Datasheet.pdf. Their U24 will do
> 600A instead of 200A, and will do 200A "up a long hill".
> According to the above link, they will be down to 60% capacity after 10 years
> due to age only. They are rated for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD.
Any tentative or speculative prices? Estimates on when these will be
available for us to purchase?
If an AGM is ~$100, a Valence battey might be ~_____ ? (I just need a number.)
Do they get damaged internally like floodies if they are discharged at
high rates? Couldn't they be constructed in such a way as to
withstand high discharge rates?
Props to Valence for making a 12 volt form factor type drop in Lithium
replacement for all current lead setups. But you all have potentially
been down this path once before.. Something called an "Evercel"? Or
is everyone on this list really going to be replacing their lead
setups with these Valence batteries in the near future unlike what
happened with the "Evercel"?
Interesting line in the .pdf:
"no recycling needed"
So they make millions of them and we just throw them in the local landfill?
Supposedly, someone on this list has already got some of these
batteries? Have any pics? Have them installed yet? How are they?
What's this wire harness sticking out of the battery plug into? Are
they going to make a "42 volt" version of this battery?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> Just a reminder (mainly for the newbies) that the EV list doesn't accept
> file attachments or other MIME-encoded material.
>
> Please set your email program to transmit only plain text, not "rich text"
> or HTML. If you don't, some people may not be able to read your messages.
>
> However, many common email clients - I think including Micro$oft's - don't
> allow > this or else make it difficult to configure.
In case anyone wants to know, or for future reference, or if someone
does a search in the archives.. here is a screenshot of how to change
it in Outlook Express:
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4531/plaintxt1yt.png
"Rich Text / HTML" is the default setting in Outlook Express. Change
it to "Plain Text" so your posts on this list get through and display
properly if you use that program for an email client.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll take Micro$oft and Windoze over Usick and Lidix any day :)
Now back to EV topics,
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 9:53 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: No attachments or HTML, please
>
> Just a reminder (mainly for the newbies) that the EV list
> doesn't accept file attachments or other MIME-encoded material.
>
> Please set your email program to transmit only plain text,
> not "rich text"
> or HTML. If you don't, some people may not be able to read
> your messages.
>
> I know that some people actually have to use their mail
> reader's command to reveal the source when messages are
> truncated. Some mail clients, such as Pegasus
> (http://www.pmail.com), can be configured to choose the plain
> version even when a fancy version of a message exists.
> However, many
> common email clients - I think including Micro$oft's - don't
> allow this or else make it difficult to configure. (If
> you're looking for a windoze based, flexible, reliable mail
> client which improves your system security, I can recommend
> Pegasus - and it's 100% freeware.)
>
> If all else fails, Yahoo Mail can be configured to send plain
> text. Maybe someone else here can recommend another webmail
> service that can be so persuaded, too.
>
> Thanks folks!
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence wrote:
> In the Aspire there is a nifty spot under the factory radio that would just
> fit the Heinemann breaker. Anybody done this?
Page 75 in "Convert It"
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4095/cb9ga.jpg
*Photo copyright Shari Prange
Mike, Shari, do I have your permission to post that pic?
Really good book and recommended if anyone doesn't already have it:
http://www.electroauto.com/info/books.shtml
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chris Jones wrote:
>
> Any tentative or speculative prices?
I just purchased 4 of the u charge batts for my 48
volt trike and have done a couple of cycles on them
but have yet to hook up a display to tell me what is
happening during use I have an amp meter and volt
meters that i will hook up soon
I paid $600 ea for the 4 batts for a $2400 total and
then needed the BMU and the recommended charger. both
of which came to another $800 the bateries are very
light and handle all the current draws my
motor/controller are asking for but since the motor
and controller are from crystalite with a published
750 watts the bt (rated 750 watts750 isEstimates oatts
are overkill. sure makes a fast light trike though.
not car fast but scary for a lightweight that has the
driver/rider 8 in off the ground and totally exposed.
I'll send more when I know more but since I had some
of them i thought i would chime inn
> when these will be
> available for us to purchase?
>
>
> If an AGM is ~$100, a Valence battey might be ~_____
> ? (I just need a number.)
>
> Do they get damaged internally like floodies if they
> are discharged at
> high rates? Couldn't they be constructed in such a
> way as to
> withstand high discharge rates?
>
> Props to Valence for making a 12 volt form factor
> type drop in Lithium
> replacement for all current lead setups. But you
> all have potentially
> been down this path once before.. Something called
> an "Evercel"? Or
> is everyone on this list really going to be
> replacing their lead
> setups with these Valence batteries in the near
> future unlike what
> happened with the "Evercel"?
>
> Interesting line in the .pdf:
>
> "no recycling needed"
>
> So they make millions of them and we just throw them
> in the local landfill?
>
> Supposedly, someone on this list has already got
> some of these
> batteries? Have any pics? Have them installed yet?
> How are they?
> What's this wire harness sticking out of the battery
> plug into? Are
> they going to make a "42 volt" version of this
> battery?
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:42 PM 8/21/2005, you wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
> A battery manufacturer specifies a charging algorithm that insures that
> the *minimum* life is at least what they claim.
We need an absolute end all, be all algorithm to get maximum life from
our AGM's.
I will potentially have some charger some day and I want it to be
*dialed*. No questions about if it's over or under charging the
batteries. Is this absolutely going to require the purchase of regs?
Now the plot thickens.....
Your hesitation to purchase regs tells much of the story. Folks
don't generally want to make the up-front payment that will result in the
long-term savings. A lot of folks don't buy a charger until after the rest
of the car is completely finished. It tend more to be an afterthought than
an integral part of the design.
The best algorithm found so far to finish charge AGM is an
interrupted constant current. There was a somewhat flawed study done on
this at NREL. Regardless of the flaws in the study, the results clearly
showed that running the 2 amp finish charge on a 50% 30 second duty cycle
made a huge difference in cycle life. (The degree of the difference is
still up in the air because of the flaws in the study.) Instead of running
constant current, they ran 2 amps for 30 seconds, then 0 amps for 30
seconds. They did this for the standard length of time.
The theory is that the gas bubbles stay below a critical size
during the 30 seconds "on" and then have time to recombine during the 30
seconds "off." The high current gets the voltage high enough to chip off
the sulphation. The rest period allows the plates time to suck up the gas.
>>> Why the "ideal" charging algorithim is unknown <<<
Cycle life testing takes a bunch of batteries and a lot of time.
Each parameter you change takes several batteries and about a month (or
more) to test. Since the batteries are not identical, you need to run a
"baseline" cycle life test using the standard cycle to make sure that the
difference you are observing is not due to changes in the manufacturing
process or battery-to-battery variations.
Thus, you take a guess at what you think will work well and you
try it. Then you make variations to see if "more" or "less" of the new
thing is better or worse.
If you want to see what is happening during the test, you must
remove a battery form the batch and dissect it. Each of these "peeks"
reduces the number of batteries in the batch and makes the test easily
messed up by manufacturing variations.
Also, what works perfectly for continual 80% cycling may not be
ideal for, say, weekly 50% cycling, or for daily 20% cycling, or for fast
discharge, or for slow discharge, etc......
It is like a game of "battleship" where each turn costs you
thousands of dollars. Once you get a "hit" you don't take very more shots
to find the rest of the ships that might be still on the board.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:28 PM 8/21/2005, you wrote:
Bill Dube wrote:
> Typically, an Optima lasts ten years in your ICE car.
That's completely true.
But why don't our strings of YT's last nearly that long? How can I
get maximum life out of my string of AGM's? Are regs what it takes?
The duty is completely different in an EV and an ICE. For every
brief 5% to 10% discharge of an ICE battery, the EV makes a 50% deep
discharge. If you look at the cycle life charts, it becomes obvious why the
ICE batteries last so many years.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well .. I am afraid they will never be 'cheap' :(
However .. I would be glad to get my hands on those batteries even if they
would be exepensive .. as long as a set of batteries wont cost me more
than say .. a used hybrid :) I have been quoted a price for their 130 ah
batteries but I had to take my heart medication after opening that email
:)
So - how can we convince Valence to send a few of those magical power
units over without having to double the federal deficit budget?
mm.
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
>>When these are available and "cheap", will they offer AGM type output?
>
>
> According to Marc Kohler of Valence, their U1 will do 300A, not only 150A
> per http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge_Datasheet.pdf. Their U24
> will do 600A instead of 200A, and will do 200A "up a long hill".
>
>
>>Also, how long should these Valence batteries last?
>
> According to the above link, they will be down to 60% capacity after 10
> years due to age only. They are rated for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD.
>
> Chris Jones
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dube wrote:
>Your hesitation to purchase regs tells much of the story.
It's an issue of ~$1,620 plus additional complexity to the system.
The more simple and clean looking the better.
Lets say for example, the pack in this pic are AGM's:
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/7932/rearbatteries1wv.jpg
How could a BMS be hooked up in such a way that there wouldn't be a
spider web of wires running all over that impressive and clean install
of a pack? Can they be remotely mounted as to be hidden away?
I like how that pack looks and wouldn't want to make it look cluttered
or messy if it was mine.
That's a VERY impressive install who's ever setup that is. Extremely
nice. Good job!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
> Well .. I am afraid they will never be 'cheap' :(
What is it about these Lithium batteries that causes them to not be
competitive price wise compared to lead? Are Valences profit margins
50%, 100%, or 200%? Maybe higher?!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keith wrote:
> paid $600 ea
Another case of my Lithium pack costing ~$21,600...
Were yours made in China or the US? How much will Chinese made ones be?
> then needed the BMU and the recommended charger.
For some reason, I was under the impression the batteries would have
the BMU built into them(hence the price)?
Do your batteries look like these?
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/5493/lith7in.jpg (what's the "pig tail" for?)
> both of which came to another $800
$800 for 4 BMU's and a charger? Or $800 for the charger and $800 for the BMU's?
What's the charger and BMU like? Any pics? What are the specs on the charger?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> On Aug 21, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> Come on Lee, can you say "Brushes"? I'll grant you that it's possible
>> to
>> build a DC system that is 'almost' as efficient as an AC system, but as
>> long as motors have brushes, they will lag behind brushless AC motors
>> by a
>> couple percent.
>
> But on the AC systems (except BLDC) you have to say "Induction" to
> create the magnetic field in the armature. Not much (if any) better
> that brushes when you realize that motors need an air gap.
>
Hmm, does it strike you as fair to compare PM DC motors to induction AC
motors?
Let's try to compare apples and oranges that are at least somewhat similar.
If you are going to compare a DC motor to an AC Induction motor, then (in
fairness) it should be a wound field DC motor.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello there,
I´m a newbie from Finland, trying to learn the VERY basics... I thought
Wh = V * Ah, but that´s not the case in this Valence datasheet?
U1:
Wh = 550
V*Ah = 512
Osmo Sarin
150A per http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge_Datasheet.pdf.
Their
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was affraid that that's what you wanted.
I don't think such curves exist, at least not the three to four
demensional curves you mention.
The SCS225 can provide perhaps 100 deep discharges (80% DOD) before
wearing out. Through most of those discharges the capacity will be slowly
dropping due to age. So perhaps you could get 10 discharges per battery
that are useful for developing a curve.
Since each battery performs slightly differently, you would need to test
many batteries and average the results.
You'd have to perform numerous tests at different discharge currents and
different temperatures, etc.
They'd use up hundreds, possibly thousands of batteries. In the end
they'd spend thousands of dollars and end up with a set of curves that
most of their customers could care less about.
So they test the batteries at two or three different discharge levels and
a single controlled temperature. Customers who want to know how the
batteries will perform at a different discharge level can estimate it
using Peukert's formula, or test them themselves.
FWIW some of the AGM and Gel Cell battery manufacturers published curves
on their batteries. Hawker and Deka come to mind. These are the types of
batteries typically used in UPS systems and these customers are extreemly
interested in how the batteries will perform at different discharge
levels.
Here is some info, including curves, on the Genesis batteries, if that's
of any use to you:
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US_GPL_SG_001_0303.pdf
Cheers, Pete.
> Hi Peter,
>
> I am looking for volts, capacity, and current draw capabilities at various
> DOD and hopefully against temperture as well
>
> The battery i am interested in is the SCS225 Trojan, 12v deep cycle and
> also
> the 8 volt golf car b att, rated at 150Ah, sorry i can't remember the
> model
> number.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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The real "claim to fame" of the Valence technology is that they're not
supposed to be able to catch fire like conventional lithiums. The
flammability issue has always been a concern of scaling li-ion up to
larger packs. Of course there's still many W-hr of energy available for
shorting out, but supposedly much less chemical-based combustion issues.
Actually Valence is supposed to have somewhat lower power density than
conventional li-ion, but apparently the lower flammability is making
them much better accepted by the industry.
Danny
Chris Jones wrote:
Ryan Stotts wrote:
When these are available and "cheap", will they offer AGM type output?
According to Marc Kohler of Valence, their U1 will do 300A, not only 150A per
http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge_Datasheet.pdf. Their U24 will do 600A instead
of 200A, and will do 200A "up a long hill".
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At 12:27 AM 8/22/2005, you wrote:
Bill Dube wrote:
>Your hesitation to purchase regs tells much of the story.
It's an issue of ~$1,620 plus additional complexity to the system.
The more simple and clean looking the better.
Just my point exactly.
Folks say they want to charge the pack so the batteries will last
the longest and deliver the most miles per dollar. The reality is that
other issues take priority.
There is often a large gap between what folks ask for, and what
they really are willing to pay for, or make the effort to install.
It astounds me when I see folks spend many thousands of dollars to
build an EV drag racer, then not install some method to balance the
batteries. This is a 30% to 50% reduction in performance. It is also a near
guarantee for bursting batteries at some point.
It is indeed a pain in the butt to wire up and it costs a few
bucks as well. They will spend huge bucks on controllers, by-pass systems,
tires, trick suspension parts, motor modifications, etc. Proper battery
charging is foolishly ignored (by all but the very quickest racers.)
Charging always seems to be a low priority, even with folks that
know better. (I'm as guilty in this regard as the next guy, by the way.) I
wonder why that is.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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Bill Dube wrote:
> This is a 30% to 50% reduction in performance.
Well that puts a completely different perspective on it.. Something
that makes my eyes get big. :)
> bursting batteries at some point.
How does this happen?
> Charging always seems to be a low priority. I wonder why that is.
I think it has something to do with previous experience with batteries
in general. The alternator on my ICE car charges the Optima just fine
and has for many years. I plug my cell phone in and can leave it
unattended and have no problems with the lithium ion battery in it.
We've been using rechargeable NiCad and NiMh AA and AAA batteries for
years, never a problem. Before that, it was alkaline batteries. Use
em and toss em. No problems with any of them.
Now this series string of deep cycle batteries appears to be a subtly
different beast entirely apparently. Why is that anyways? What's so
different about it?
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Hi Michaela and All,
Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well .. I am afraid they will never be 'cheap' :(
However .. I would be glad to get my hands on those batteries even if they
would be exepensive .. as long as a set of batteries wont cost me more
than say .. a used hybrid :) I have been quoted a price for their 130 ah
batteries but I had to take my heart medication after opening that email
:)
So - how can we convince Valence to send a few of those magical power
units over without having to double the federal deficit budget?
How about instead, buy Ni-cads that while are not as high cap
as Li-ions, do about 2x range vs lead/weight in real life, are very robust and
have 20+ yr lives!! And they cost 1/4 or so of Valance Li-ion's. And they don't
need regs on each batt and can use a much more simple batt charger. They also
don't lose cap when cold. In a custom built as an EV car done right, they could
get you a 200 mile range if done correctly.
These can be bought for about $550/kwhr of useable, rated
power vs lead which you get about 1/2 the rated power and Li-ions about the
same 1/2 the rated power if you want good life from them. 6v, 100amphr
ni-cads are about $275 each.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
mm.
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
>>When these are available and "cheap", will they offer AGM type output?
>
>
> According to Marc Kohler of Valence, their U1 will do 300A, not only 150A
> per http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge_Datasheet.pdf. Their U24
> will do 600A instead of 200A, and will do 200A "up a long hill".
>
>
>>Also, how long should these Valence batteries last?
>
> According to the above link, they will be down to 60% capacity after 10
> years due to age only. They are rated for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD.
>
> Chris Jones
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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http://www.carpages.co.uk/mitsubishi/mitsubishi-colt-part-1-13-05-05.asp?swi
tched=on&echo=435652253
http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail1269.html
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=R1e&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en
> From: "low_b_5" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:40:01 -0000
> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: New EVs from Asia
>
> Intresting! But what will they look like ...? ?
> From: Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Here's a nice roundup of the new electric cars that
>> will be coming out of Japan and China in the near
>> future:
>> http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106930
>>
>> sherry
>
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More web searching revealed www.aros.net/~tryon/j2178_p2.doc
I think that has all I was looking for.
On 8/22/05, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My EV has a 16 pin diagnostic connector, which can be used to monitor
> things and initiate the maintenance charges needed for the Saft
> nicads.
> I have been able to reverse engineer the protocol and can now copy
> what the console does, but to make a useful program I need to know
> some more detail about the format of the data exchanges, header bytes
> etc. From info found on the web, I think the relevant standards are
> ISO 9141-2 and SAE J2178.
> Does anyone know of a resource with useful information about these,
> preferably cheap or free, as this is a personal project and I don't
> have a budget for buying the actual standards.
>
> Thanks
> Evan
>
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My EV has a 16 pin diagnostic connector, which can be used to monitor
things and initiate the maintenance charges needed for the Saft
nicads.
I have been able to reverse engineer the protocol and can now copy
what the console does, but to make a useful program I need to know
some more detail about the format of the data exchanges, header bytes
etc. From info found on the web, I think the relevant standards are
ISO 9141-2 and SAE J2178.
Does anyone know of a resource with useful information about these,
preferably cheap or free, as this is a personal project and I don't
have a budget for buying the actual standards.
Thanks
Evan
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>From VisForVoltage forum:
>>>>>
Here are the prices quoted from Stephen Ballard at Valence:
12V
U1, 40AH - $650 US
U24, 100AH - $1600 US
U27, 130AH - $1900 US
>>>>
It's similar than kokam price but with 400% claimed life cycle
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Valence Lithium-ion
> Chris Jones wrote:
>
> > According to Marc Kohler of Valence, their U1 will do 300A, not only
150A per http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/U-Charge_Datasheet.pdf. Their U24
will do 600A instead of 200A, and will do 200A "up a long hill".
>
> > According to the above link, they will be down to 60% capacity after 10
years due to age only. They are rated for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD.
>
> Any tentative or speculative prices? Estimates on when these will be
> available for us to purchase?
>
>
> If an AGM is ~$100, a Valence battey might be ~_____ ? (I just need a
number.)
>
> Do they get damaged internally like floodies if they are discharged at
> high rates? Couldn't they be constructed in such a way as to
> withstand high discharge rates?
>
> Props to Valence for making a 12 volt form factor type drop in Lithium
> replacement for all current lead setups. But you all have potentially
> been down this path once before.. Something called an "Evercel"? Or
> is everyone on this list really going to be replacing their lead
> setups with these Valence batteries in the near future unlike what
> happened with the "Evercel"?
>
> Interesting line in the .pdf:
>
> "no recycling needed"
>
> So they make millions of them and we just throw them in the local
landfill?
>
> Supposedly, someone on this list has already got some of these
> batteries? Have any pics? Have them installed yet? How are they?
> What's this wire harness sticking out of the battery plug into? Are
> they going to make a "42 volt" version of this battery?
>
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Thanks Evan,
at least I got the theory part right! :) So if a battery manufacturer
doesn´t tell the energy, there isn't any exact way to calculate it?
Osmo
22.8.2005 kello 14:08, Evan Tuer kirjoitti:
On 8/22/05, Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello there,
I´m a newbie from Finland, trying to learn the VERY basics... I
thought
Wh = V * Ah, but that´s not the case in this Valence datasheet?
U1:
Wh = 550
V*Ah = 512
The mistake is that V is not a constant 12.8V. A Li-Ion cell (in fact
most rechargeable batteries) starts out at a higher voltage, which
gradually falls until the cell is empty.
So to get the 550Wh, they must measure the voltage * current every
second (for example), to integrate to find the energy used.
Welcome, by the way :)
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Hi Ricky and Everyone,
That's kind of what I was thinking too, but at this point I'm just going to try
it and see what happens. Worst case scenario I can have one in a couple days.
To my understanding they had a 220 vac IOTA in Gone Postal with ~300 volts
going to it and working fine.
BTW, do the 120 volt versions come with a power cord? The 220's don't and the
only power cord with that connector on the end I could find was 18 ga wire so
I'm thinking that's a little bit too small.
Yes, the 120V unit comes with a power cord. I cut it and used some
connectors to hook it to my pack. Black to pack positive, white to pack
ground. I left the green unconnected. Maybe someone will chime in
suggesting this is a no-no. It's worked good for about 9 months now.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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Hello from France Evan
i have the OEM ELIT console for servicing my electric Saxo, if you need
information contact me off list, i will be pleased to help.
regards,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 11:16 AM
Subject: ODB info?
> My EV has a 16 pin diagnostic connector, which can be used to monitor
> things and initiate the maintenance charges needed for the Saft
> nicads.
> I have been able to reverse engineer the protocol and can now copy
> what the console does, but to make a useful program I need to know
> some more detail about the format of the data exchanges, header bytes
> etc. From info found on the web, I think the relevant standards are
> ISO 9141-2 and SAE J2178.
> Does anyone know of a resource with useful information about these,
> preferably cheap or free, as this is a personal project and I don't
> have a budget for buying the actual standards.
>
> Thanks
> Evan
>
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