EV Digest 4660
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery question (again)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Shunt motor regen setup
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Brush Advance
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller/Battery Specs Trojan vs US
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV wiring question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Kelvin connection
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Home Garage Lift (For EV Conversion)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV wiring question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Solectria E-10 Battery chices
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Rack Techniques
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Solectria E-10 Battery chices
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Shunt motor regen setup
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Why I am not at Woodburn
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Crushable bumper idea?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Shunt motor regen setup
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery question (again)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV wiring question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Pascal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDL<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Battery question (again)
Thx for the answers everyone, just became a bit wiser
(was under the impression as a newbie that volts were
more important than amps/hr)
One question: where can I find this Uve's Electric
Vehicle Calculator?
Just type in your search engine:
Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator
It will go to a WEB address you can click on.
I don't used any of the http or www or and dot com. For example if there is
something of only one of a kind, you will normally go right to it.
You could used the google search by typing in
www.google.com<http://www.google.com/> and than type in your info.
To test this out, use google and type:
Roland Wiench El Camino Electro I
You should get a group of pictures of my EV
Roland
thx in advance.
grtz
Pascal
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> It depends on how much amperes you will need to
> drive your EV.
>
> Ampere-hour capacity is a measure of how many
> amperes a battery can deliver for a specified length
> of time. These are normally rated for a 20 hour
> rate.
>
> Example:
>
> A typical marine or golf car battery that has 100
> ampere-hours can deliver 5 amperes for 20 hours (5
> amperes x 20 hours = 100 amp-hrs).
>
> As the ampere goes up or the load of your EV goes
> up, A 100 ampere-hour battery may only deliver 20
> amperes for only 4 hours, resulting in an actual
> capacity of 80 ampere-hours.
>
> If the battery is measure in reserve capacity. Lets
> say a battery has a 180 minute reserved capacity at
> 25 amps, then:
>
> 180 min. / 60 = 3 hours
>
> Therefore:
>
> 3 hr x 25 amps = 75 amp-hours.
>
>
> Normally a golf cart is driven at slow speed for
> short distance and some needs to be charge driving 9
> holes.
>
> A EV vehicle is normally driven from 10 to 25 mph
> city driving through residential streets. My
> average mph in my city with speed limits from 20 to
> 35 mph is only 15 mph.
>
> My average ampere draw is about 50 amps at 15 mph. I
> am using 250 ampere-hour batteries, so if you kill
> the batteries down to 0 percent, then you think you
> can get:
>
> 250 amp-hr /50 amps = 5 hours of driving
>
> NOT SO !!
>
> When you get to 50 percent charge of the battery or
> about 125 to 100 amp-hr which causes a voltage drop
> that might be below your motor voltage. The EV will
> slow down and may not have enough power to climb any
> grades.
>
> So its is best to only discharge down to 50 percent.
> The batteries will last longer. A EV that drives
> 100 miles a day with two deep discharges and
> recharged, the battery life could be only two years.
>
>
> A EV with enough AH capacity that allows you to
> drive several days before its gets down to 50
> percent will last a lot longer. My last set of
> batteries were the Exide 235 AH 6-volt golf car
> batteries, that I was be able to squeeze 12 years
> out of with only 6 replacements out of 30 batteries.
>
>
> The new set I have now is Trojan 260 AH 6-volt which
> is now 4 years olds and I expect them to go at least
> another 6 to 8 more years. There is only 0.01 volt
> difference between all the batteries which we call a
> balance charged battery.
>
> The 28 ah battery has only a 18 hole range at about
> 5 mph for a vehicle that weighs less than 1000 lbs.
>
> So it depends on the weight, speed and what distance
> you want to go.
>
> Used Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator to determined
> what type of EV system you need.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pascal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: EVDL<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:51 AM
> Subject: Battery question (again)
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Sorry if this has been answered before, I
> problably
> missed it then.
>
> It was suggested that I should use 6V batteries
> for my
> EV, but yesterday I visited a golfcar-dealer and I
> noticed some 12V batteries (1 type is 12v/22ah,
> the
> other is 12v/28ah) for golfcars.
>
> So I wonder, are these ok to use in an EV, (I'm
> still
> a newbie at EV-stuff)
>
> thx
>
> Pascal
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A related question, I would like to have regen capability using a standard
Series-Wound motor and Curtis controller. I live in the hills (lots of ups
and downs), anticipate converting a drum-brake VW bug, and am concerned
about range and brake fade.
Here's what I envision, with the caveat that one would wire the whole mess
so that if it failed, you wouldn't wind up with a straight battery-to-motor
connection or a dead short:
Provide a "SlowDown" button or switch (perhaps simply a brakelight switch
adjusted high) that would run contactors to:
1) remove the controller from the circuit altogether (it would kill
your power, but you're trying to slow down anyway)
2) disconnect the S1 and S2 wires that go to the motor
3) run the A1 and A2 wires to B+ and B- (perhaps through some beefy
diodes... and an ammeter... or something)
4) provide an appropriate voltage to the S1-S2 to create a field that
would convince the motor to act as a generator.
OK, now this newbie is awaiting a straightening-out. At least I didn't ask
if I could run a recharger off the back shaft of the motor while driving!
-Tim, ex-science teacher and EVer-wannabe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:03 PM
Subject: Shunt motor regen setup
> Does anyone use a shunt setup using a Curtis for power and a contactor to
> use the shunt motor as a regen unit when going down hill. Just wondering
if
> this has been done or could be done. I know the shunt motor must be set
to
> neutral brush timing.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/89 - Release Date: 9/2/05
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's just a matter of 60 pounds. I can only say from experience more
battery capacity rather than less is better. The Trojans are not true deep
cycle batteries. The EV 145's are. Save yourself headaches and get the
real deep cycle battery. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
Hey Clauddio,
Man is Les efficient!. I got the car to him on saturday morning, and by
sunday arvo, he has made the motor mount, installed the motor, got the
power plug into the fuel cap!. Fantastic bloke!.
IN terms of batteries, i really do not want to go 8 volts, i can't afford
the extra weight. And after heaps of surfing on various manufacturers
site, the trojans SCS225 are still the number one in terms of capacity and
minimum weight.
Anyway i hope the SCS225 will go the distance. They should!, I really want
some battery curves on the voltage at various DOD for that particular
battery.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the input. I tried advancing (rotating the brushes against rotor
rotation) 10 and 20 degrees from neutral. With the field bypassed, 10
degrees had maybe a little less arching than neutral, but it was hard to see
much improvement. 20 degree advance was definitely worse. Lots of pulsating
blue arches around the brushes and yellow streaks circling the armature. The
bypass circuit was a golf cart contactor and 6 feet of 12 awg wire. Motor is
6.7 ADC.
Conditions before bypasses: 2500 RPM, 75A, ~47 volts
Conditions after bypass: 2800 RPM, 120A, ~45 volts
Based on these results, I could not recommend field bypass for a speed
boost, at least not at these motor operating conditions, or not for an
extended period of operation. Is this conclusion correct and consistent with
the results others have experienced? Am I missing something? Thanks, Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: Brush Advance
At 08:02 PM 29/08/05 -0500, Mark wrote:
Bob, Thanks for the reply. So, the correct answer seems to be: To
advance the brushes, rotate them in the direction of rotor rotation. As
someone mentioned several months ago, this is the opposite of what you
would think based on advancing the timing on ICE's.
Wow, 34 degrees you say! I tried 10.7 (recommended by that Madman guy)
degrees to reduce the dramatic arcing I was getting when I bypassed my
series field to get a speed boost, but I'm still gettng some arcing. I
guess I just didn't go far enough. I'm drilling and tapping my own
holes, so I can set it anywhere I want. Thanks again.
AAAARGGHH NO!!
34 degrees was a change for advanced in one rotation direction to
advanced for opposite rotation. So that is a 17 degree advance position
relative to neutral. Bobs' motor was already advanced for conventional
rotation, he changed direction of rotation for the Honda he did, hence
the advance change.
As I understand it, advancing the brushes is turning them in the
opposite direction to rotation (so the commutator bars "arrive sooner"
at the brushes).
Madman has done a lot of this stuff, believe what he says.
The following is an extract of an old post that I saved:
Subject: Re: Timing efficiency
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> Hi Rich - I'd like to ask a question with a possibly obvious answer:
> When you say "advance" the brushes, is this in the opposite direction
> as
> the normal shaft rotation?
> Would advancing the timing do anything for a PMDC motor?
> Thank you.
> --
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >Advance the brushes about 10 degrees.
> > On some Avdc there are other bolt hole sets in the motor case.
> > You
> >simple unbolt the brush end cap, rotate to the advanced hole set,
> >take
> >out the burried Setscrews if they are there, and install the 4 long
> >screws back into the Advanced holes. Done. Check the project 8 photos
> >on
> >the Manzanita Micro site in the download area. These shots are of a
> >AvDC
> >8 incher. The 9 are the same.
> > If you can't slot the Alum end cap bolt holes. It's cheap and
> > easy.
> >Better yet is to move the end Bell, remove the brush rigging support
> >screw or rivets, and slot the plastic support ring.
> > I have turned this ring into a externally adjustable rotating
housing,
> >so I can adjust in the fly.
Yes and yes!!
It trades low end torque for high end torque. If you have more
than you
need down low, and it's a slug up high, then do it!!
[End of quote]
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Battery
Model Amp
Hours
(20hr. rate) Minutes
@
75amps Minutes
@
25amps Length Width Height
BACKWeight Cover
and
Case Pallet
Qty
EV-145 145 72 270 13-5/8" 6-3/4" 12-1/4" 87 lbs. Blk/Blk 36
Type Capacity Minutes Cranking Performance 5 Hr Rate AH 20 Hr Rate AH
Voltage Terminal Dimensions
inches (mm) Weight
lbs.(kg)
@25 Amps @56 Amps @75 Amps CCA
@0°F CA
@32°F L W H
SCS225 225 - 57 665 820 105 130 12 AP, DWNT, UT 13 15/16 (355) 6 3/4
(171) 9 7/8 (251) 66 (30)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> For a long, LONG time, large home appliances that used 240vac did
>> NOT have ground wires. The 3-pin plugs they always used had only
>> two "hots" and neutral -- no ground.
Neon John wrote:
> Actually, two hots and ground with no neutral.
The 1987 NEC identified the 3 pins in the 30a dryer and 50a range outlet
as two hots and neutral; black, red, and white. No ground! However, the
code also said the the frame of a dryer or range must be grounded. You
could ground it to a metal water pipe or gas pipe.
But realizing that these may not be available, section 250-60 permitted
it to be grounded by connecting it to the NEUTRAL of the 3-wire
connector. All electric ranges of the time came with a terminal block
and wire that made it easy to connect ground to neutral. The installer
was supposed to leave this wire off and ground the dryer or range with a
separate wire.
In the 1996 NEC, this neutral-to-ground method was no longer allowed. I
don't have copies of the codes in between, so can't tell exactly when
they changed it. Anecdotally, it appears the 4-pin connector (two hots,
neutral, and ground) started replacing the older 3-pin ones about 15
years ago.
> One can, of course, with a fertile imagination, conceive of an
> instance where this could be a little dangerous...
More than a little! I worked at Robertshaw Controls in 1987-1992
designing range controls for all the major range manufacturers. We got
safety reports. Toasters (which also have no ground), kitchen ranges,
and clothes dryers were the major sources of shocks and electrocutions
in homes. Often, the installer neither grounded the appliance, nor did
he connect the neutral-to-ground wire.
Toasters are another story (don't get me started). They are *still*
being built without a ground wire!
--
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the
shore for a very long time." -- Andre Gide
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/12vsweeper.htm EV-145 Battery 87 pounds
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=SCS225 SCS225
66 pounds.
The EV 145 beats the SCS225 in every way. It is heavier by 11 pounds So
that is 66 pounds more. Pretty much nothing in an EV. You will however
have a better deep cycle battery if you use the US battery.The foot print of
the 145 is just about the same. It is taller. If you can fit these
batteries in and if they are available in your area I highly recommend them
over a Marine battery. The Marine battery is not a true Deep cycle battery.
Also from what I have read the EV 145 is cheaper than the Trojan. Lawrence
Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: Alltrax 7245 controller
Hi Robert,
IN terms of batteries, i really do not want to go 8 volts, i
can't afford the extra weight. And after heaps of surfing on various
manufacturers site, the trojans SCS225 are still the number one in terms
of
capacity and minimum weight.
Appreciate your reasons for selecting the SCS225s. Just highlighting, with
respect to your original question regarding the Alltrax, that you'll have
trouble meeting the max ratings of the controller (on the battery side at
least) without quickly destroying those 130ah SCS225s.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes extensions on the Meter. That might work. Same as the Kelvin
connection only I don't have to run 8 sets of wire. LR>........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: Kelvin connection
I think I understand what you're asking now. You want to have the regs
mounted remotely and adjust their set point to allow for the voltage drop
in the cables, right? This might work. You could try adding extension
wires to your meter probes so you can see the meter while you're adjusting
the regs.
Ralph
Lawrence Rhodes writes:
My eyes aren't that good but maybe if I had some clips and a big readout
I
might be able to reae it through the windshield if the hood wasn't in the
way. Question is will this work? Is it possible the long wire
interfears
with the functioning of the reg. LR>.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Kelvin connection
>
>
> Lawrence,
>
> Why wouldn't the person adjusting the reg have the voltmeter right
> there
> in front of them on the reg itself?
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes writes:
>>
>> It seems to me that I have adjusted my regs once in a while. Once you
>> adjust it. It then carrys on at that level all by its self for a long
>> time.
>> But over time you might have to slightly readjust them. Here is the
>> senario. Person A is at the reg in the front of the car. Person B
>> reads
>> the voltage at the battery. Person B Calls out voltages. Person A
>> adjusts
>> the reg untill the battery hits lets say 15 volts. You are done. Go
>> to
>> the
>> next reg and battery untill they all register the same voltage. My
>> experience is that this is a little tricky. As you adjust one reg it
>> effects the other regs. It takes a while but with patience you can
>> have
>> every battery in your pack at the same voltage at the end of charge.
>> It's
>> the error that measuring the voltage at the reg 8 feet away will lead
>> you
>> astray. If one person is at the battery they will tell you when you
>> have
>> adjusted the reg correctly. Then you are done. The person isn't
>> going
>> to
>> use a light bulb to do it manually. You need the reg to carry on
>> after
>> you
>> have found the right voltage. Am I making myself clear? I'm not
>> triggering
>> the reg. The reg does that by itself after being adjusted properly
>> which
>> is
>> why you need another person to quicken the process. Is that clear?
>> Lawrence Rhodes.........
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jake Oshins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 6:39 PM
>> Subject: RE: Kelvin connection
>>
>>
>> >I don't understand the question. The Kelvin connection does exactly
>> > that. It measures voltage at the battery.
>> >
>> > Are you suggesting that you always stand there and manually measure
>> > the
>> > voltage? If so, what do you need a regulator for? Just turn down
>> > your
>> > charger when a battery gets charged.
>> >
>> > Are you suggesting that you would manually trigger the regulator
>> > when
>> > the other guy tells you to? If so, how would you do that? Would
>> > you
>> > turn the trim pot so that it kicks in? If so, you'll quickly wear
>> > out
>> > the trim pot, as it's not rugged enough to be constantly adjusted.
>> >
>> > - Jake
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > On
>> > Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
>> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:21 PM
>> > To: [email protected]
>> > Subject: Re: Kelvin connection
>> >
>> > Avoiding all this could one just measure the voltage at the battery?
>> > Would
>> > the reg still function? It would mean a lot of running back and
>> > forth
>> > or a
>> > partner but will the regs function that way. Lawrence Rhodes......
>> >
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Always better to go with the 6v batteries but if you need to shave weight
and/or have a short commute the EV-145's might be good. Certainly bettery
than Marine batteries. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefano Landi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Alltrax 7245 controller
I've been carefully watching this particular thread especially in regards
to
the battery choices mentioned. For my Festiva I was planning on going the
12
X 6V US2200 at 225Ah and I wanted to know if any of you could give me
guidelines as to whether I might be better off going for 6 EV-145, the
price
would be good for me here in Montreal. However, I'm trying to find a good
compromise between overall weight and range. The EV at 145Ah have less
overall oomph, but would shave off some 260 Lbs off the overall total
weight, so to recap
12 X 6V US2200 (63 Lbs) = 780 Lbs at 220 Ah
6 X 12V EV-145 (87 Lbs) = 522 Lbs at 145 Ah
Anyone have any comments, I too would be looking at the Alltrax and I'm
expecting roughly the following performance from my Festiva with the
following components:
Motor: D&D 10 HP
Controller: Altrax 7245
Voltage: 72 Volts
Max speed ~50-55 Mph (80-90Kph)
Max range ~30-50 Miles (50-80Km)
Is this doable? Any comments?
thanks,
Stefano
On 9/4/05, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes. Don't do the Marine batteries. Use the EV 145's or comparable. They
are classed as scrubber batteries but the EV 145 was developed as an EV
battery from the start. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:41 AM
Subject: RE: Alltrax 7245 controller
>
> Hello Robert,
>
>> has anyone ever successfully used a Alltrax 72 volt 450 amp
>> controller in their road going car that weighs roughly 780 kg.
>> I am still thinking whether to go curtis.
>
> I don't think the choice between a Curtis or Alltrax is going to
> compromise your conversion, as I suspect the limiting factor will be
> battery side (ie. the 72 volts of SCS225 batteries).
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Noel,
I lift is pure luxury for EV conversion, ao if you want to save the money
for other things (a nice charger?), consider simply using four ramps and a
creeper. This should raise the vehicle to have 12-14" underneath, good
enough for most the conversion work.
A big problem with this lift is that it will be in the way when you want to
work in the tunnel area. If you do a lot of work on cars and really want a
lift, then get a real one (if you have the ceiling height or can put it
outside). I have seen two post lifts for as little as $2000 new, and see
them used for $1200 used. Here are some pictures from a randomly searched
site: http://www.e-autolifts.com/MX-7CP/MX-7CP.html
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Noel P. Luneau
Sent: September 4, 2005 7:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Home Garage Lift (For EV Conversion)
What do you folks use to lift the glider for your home garage conversions?
I was looking at a scissor lift
http://www.americanautomotiveequipment.com/pages/831668/index.htm but it is
pricy at $1,000. It is nice that it lifts pretty high, not sure about the
stability though.
Thanks for all of your help,
Noel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe that what you're describing would be a code violation, for two
reasons. One is that you are not matching the breaker (20a) and the
receptacle (30a). The other is that the code no longer permits 3-pin dryer
receptacles for new installations; now they must be 4-pin with a separate
ground and neutral.
I'd recommend installing a regular 20 amp, 240 volt receptacle in your
garage, and making an adaptor or custom extension cord if you need to
connect to dryer receptacles elsewhere.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Solectria spent a lot of time and money trying many different brands and
types of batteries. Sonnenschein Dryfit, and their licensed US made
clones, East Penn Deka Dominators, emerged as the most long-lived and
reliable batteries for this specific application.
One reason their range is modest is that they are quite acid-starved. This
essentially enforces an 80% DOD limit, which is one reason they return good
cycle life.
I personally have found the Dominators to be very high quality, consistent,
and reliable batteries when used in relatively low-current applications. As
long as you're staying with lead-acid batteries, for this EV I don't think
you'll do better. (And no, I'm not connected with East Penn in any way.)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Uh, wow, did I mention these were sealed batteries? I choose them to
avoid dealing with all that. Do I still need all that?
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--- Begin Message ---
Just as a reference point, last week after a fairly heavy discharge, (about
40 AH) I pulled the covers and checked the 8G27 Deka Dominators in my
Solectria Force. Total voltage variation from highest battery to lowest
was .07 volts. Pretty good for batteries over 14 months old with no
battery management system. I do tend to cycle fairly shallow, most days
only about 15% discharged. For an EV with a fairly low maximum current
draw, say no more than 250 Amps, they can't be beat. Some of the E-10s had
a double string of 8G24s. I suspect this would be the best way to go, and
the least expensive in the long term.
These batteries are also sold under the MK brand. Same batteries,
different label.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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Forget about regen with a series motor. Even our wizard, Otmar, tried it
and couldn't make it work well. Shunt motor regen does work. Modern
golf carts use shunt motors with regen. I don't know if anybody has come
up with a shunt motor regen setup for vehicles bigger than golf carts.
Apparently you are interested in regen because you live in a hilly location.
and plan to convert a drum-brake VW. Time, effort and money spent for
regen would be better spent upgrading the obsolete VW brakes. Disk
brake parts are available.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Shunt motor regen setup
A related question, I would like to have regen capability using a standard
Series-Wound motor and Curtis controller. I live in the hills (lots of
ups
and downs), anticipate converting a drum-brake VW bug, and am concerned
about range and brake fade.
Here's what I envision, with the caveat that one would wire the whole mess
so that if it failed, you wouldn't wind up with a straight
battery-to-motor
connection or a dead short:
Provide a "SlowDown" button or switch (perhaps simply a brakelight switch
adjusted high) that would run contactors to:
1) remove the controller from the circuit altogether (it would kill
your power, but you're trying to slow down anyway)
2) disconnect the S1 and S2 wires that go to the motor
3) run the A1 and A2 wires to B+ and B- (perhaps through some beefy
diodes... and an ammeter... or something)
4) provide an appropriate voltage to the S1-S2 to create a field that
would convince the motor to act as a generator.
OK, now this newbie is awaiting a straightening-out. At least I didn't ask
if I could run a recharger off the back shaft of the motor while driving!
-Tim, ex-science teacher and EVer-wannabe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 1:03 PM
Subject: Shunt motor regen setup
Does anyone use a shunt setup using a Curtis for power and a contactor to
use the shunt motor as a regen unit when going down hill. Just wondering
if
this has been done or could be done. I know the shunt motor must be set
to
neutral brush timing.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Well it's Woodburn Sunday... and I am at home, doing chores and getting ready
for a tough Fall design schedule...
And I was at the Wayland invitational. So... you have to ask why I am not also
down at the track today...
I have been mulling that over for hours and hours and hundreds of miles of
driving.
Four main reasons;
Polite Protest about NEDRA's scheduling...
This is the prickly part....Last year at Woodburn '04 , at the awards
party, we had the pick of any weekend of August we wanted, I had my check book
out, all Rod had to do was shake the Man's hand. I wanted 1 week before Labor
day, that was the 27th and 28th of August '05. It would have helped Otmar make
it this year ,and kept the rest of us off the roads on the last Big Weekend of
the summer. But... I was blown off.
See ya.....
I am still sponsoring Woodburn '05, as soon as Rod gets me Dean and Stef's home
address.
Nasty design requirements and demands for the weeks ahead.
I am doing the 75K charger, I have clients that want to see action for
their cashflow, it's pretty dangerous doing 480 3 phase ,and it's many grand
should I have a bad night in the Lab.
Also the Iso project HAS to be brought back on line because you folks...aka my
client base, want them. So... 2 totally new product lines, have to be
prototyped and brought into production, at the same time I am building about 6
to 12 regular PFC chargers a month. I fully understand Otmar's burn out. I am
there also.
Way too much stress with things I have no control over
I have had two legal battles that I have had very little control
over....these both ate two days a week for the last two weeks. I don't want to
know what my blood pressure got to...But I almost decked a Fire Marshal, and
some clowns are trying to repo my Fork truck. Hand off my toys!, and I don't
care who you are, don't walk into my shop un invited while I am doing a high
power test....
And my own health...
Just to get home I had to take a 45 minute nap to keep the micro sleep under
control. I just can't do all nighters like I used to.
When I left Plasma Central yesterday..... I felt a million years old and, the
homing instinct was pretty strong. Get home, recover, deal with the fall out
later.
I think I need a few more bike rides in my life and less late nights building
Chargers and eating crap like I am still 18.
A Ugly slow EV that is a embarrassment in the pretty EV crowd that I call
friends. I simply did not give myself enough time to prepare. I really have
better things to do instead of thrashing
a $50 rust bucket, and turn in the same times I have for the last 5 years.. And
I did that Friday night...
And Like always charging everybody and everything with 4 different chargers.
OK I have said it as clearly as I can...
I owe that to you all, and to the NEDRA folks I call friends.
Sincerely
Rich Rudman
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Of course, most of the fun of this idea is "acquiring" the beer cans.
Essentially you have described large cell aluminium honeycomb panel.
Smaller cell aluminium honeycomb is used for crushable areas in some
specialty cars.
Another option is to use "Aluminium Foam". This is often used on the FSAE
race cars as the "crush" area on the front nose.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stu or Jan
Sent: September 4, 2005 7:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: FW: Crushable bumper idea?
_____________________________________________
From: stu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 10:36 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: Crushable bumper idea?
Imagine a few dozen empty beer cans placed horizontally between 2 plates.
Upon impact, these cans will crush and they will decelerate the main vehicle
body.
Their weight would be insignificant but I believe that they might be very
effective in reducing bodily injury.
A bonus is that the cost of replacement after an accident is something to
celebrate.
I'll drink to that!
BoyntonStu
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On 4 Sep 2005 at 14:22, Tom Shay wrote:
> Forget about regen with a series motor. Even our wizard, Otmar, tried it and
> couldn't make it work well.
Zivan used to make - and I think they still do - a regen controller for
series motors. I believe it maxes out at 96 volts. Earlier, higher voltage
versions were a disaster, with many catastrophic controller failures.
> Shunt motor regen does work. Modern golf carts
> use shunt motors with regen. I don't know if anybody has come up with a shunt
> motor regen setup for vehicles bigger than golf carts.
Soleq and GE made separately excited regen systems. Both are out of
production, though.
I think I remember that Randy Holmquist is currently selling a Kostov /
Zivan sep-ex regen combination. I might be wrong about that.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 4 Sep 2005 at 11:32, Pascal wrote:
> volts were
> more important than amps/hr
Careful, that's amp-hr. Mathematically, it makes a BIG difference.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 4 Sep 2005 at 12:56, Stefano Landi wrote:
> For my Festiva I was planning on going the 12 X
> 6V US2200 at 225Ah and I wanted to know if any of you could give me guidelines
> as to whether I might be better off going for 6 EV-145, the price would be
> good
> for me here in Montreal.
Your cost per mile of operation will be markedly lower using the 2200s.
They are cheaper per pound (IIRC) and will certainly last longer.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 4 Sep 2005 at 11:04, Lee Hart wrote:
> My recommendation is to use the 4-pin version, not the 3-pin version for
> any new outlets you install. Then you have access to both neutral and
> ground.
The waiver allowing large appliances to combine neutral and ground dates
from the WWII years, when copper was in short supply. Remarkably, this
waiver wasn't rescinded until 1996. The code has >required< 4-pin dryer and
range recepts (and wiring to match) since then.
Most major appliances have used the neutral (or neutral/ground) for at least
something. Typically dryers use it for a drum light, and often to power the
timer motor. Ranges use it for the oven and surface lights, and usually for
the clock. A very long time ago, before the "thermal PWM" controls were
common in ranges, some also used various combinations of 120 and 240 volts
on two different elements to vary the temperature of surface units. This
was pretty much history by the 1960s, maybe even earlier.
At any rate, because most appliances used (and still use) the grounded pin
(call it neutral or ground, whatever) as a current carrying conductor, most
agree that it was reasonable, and a worthwhile safety improvement, for the
NEC to require that neutral and ground be separated in new installations.
The code doesn't require that earlier installations be updated, just that
new ones comply with the new requirement. The practical consequence of this
for EVers is that you need four adapters, instead of two, if you intend to
use dryer and range receptacles for opportunity charging.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 4 Sep 2005 at 22:24, Robert Chew wrote:
> SCS225 are still the number one in terms of capacity and minimum
> weight.
I don't know whether today's SCS225s are the same, but I seem to recall some
folks complaining about premature failures with these batteries about 8-10
years ago. The 27TMH was reportedly marginally more long-lived and
reliable.
Very few people I know of (at least on the list) have used either battery
since then, so I suppose things might have changed. Keep us posted.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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