EV Digest 4741
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: rewinding motors? (was "Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)")
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: K&W Chargers & transmission info
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Re. Breaking in new batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Charging wires CORRECTION
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Rims on Bombardier EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: K&W Chargers
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV wiring. Common ground. What is the Hazards
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Re. Breaking in new batteries
by Carmen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Rims on Bombardier EV
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Grass rootes basic info
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) re: NEDRA Records for 2005(confession)
by "Brian D.Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rims on Bombardier EV
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: K&W Chargers
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Grass rootes basic info
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Tradin' Post and EV Album Back Online
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV wiring. Common ground. What is the Hazards
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have had good luck writing the check for that at Solectria, when we wanted
something special. As in different from the normally stocked specially wound
Solectria motors. And the place down the street (in greater Boston) did it.
So the place down the street from you might not do it, but someplace in a
city near you probably will.
IIRC, I asked for XX number of turns same area of copper fill, or something
like that. I heard they didn't much like cramming that much copper in there,
but it worked. And we specified insulation and such.
This was for a 450lb motor, and the price was about $800, IIRC. And
everything costs more in Boston.
Seth
On 9/20/05, Tim Stephenson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Whoo-ee. Just checking!
>
> Actually, I used to be a coil-winder LOOONG ago. The smallest we used was
> #51 - a little smaller than fine hair - loading the shuttle was more
> working
> by feel than by sight. But I get your point, and agree that I would be
> wise
> to hire someone else (or buy a better motor). Thanks for the straight
> answer
> (and I appreciate the detail).
>
> -Tim
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: rewinding motors? (was "Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)")
>
>
> > If you are rewinding just the field windings, coils for contactors,
> transformers or reactor coils, this is the easy part if there is no
> insulation paper or rods between each layer that has to be enamel at each
> layer. I normally wind large communications coils that are not random
> wround.
> >
> > As you unwrap the coils, you count how many turns they are. Then you
> turn
> on the same size wire. It may look like it's random wrap, but you must
> make
> sure you do not pile it all on one side, but sweep back and forth as you
> go.
> >
> > You can have the same number of random wraps on several different coils,
> but the inductance reactance will be different, so one coil may have to
> have
> another layer of winding to for adjustments.
> >
> > In some cases there is mica insulation paper that is install between
> each
> layer.
> >
> > If you are doing a small job, where you do not need thousand of feet of
> wire, which comes in 1000 to 5000 foot reels or 50,000 to over 100,000
> feet
> pails, motor shops can roll some off for you if they happen to have a
> empty
> wire reel.
> >
> > Its cost about the same if you let them roll the wire right on to your
> coil form as it would onto a reel. The coil form must be prepare correctly
> for accepting the new wire.
> >
> > The unwinding and rewinding machines, unwind the coils and keep count of
> the total number of turns and number of turns per layer. Then it rewinds
> the same size wire using the same number count.
> >
> > You must specific what type of wire insulation and temperature rating
> you
> want.
> >
> > In some cases, the number of turns are critical, so I will turn another
> layer and than test the coil for inductance reactance and unwrap one turn
> of
> wire for adjustments.
> >
> > It is better to not wrap coils by hand, because you will scratch or nick
> the insulation and may stretch the wire. The coils are spin on the coil
> machine that allows equal tension.
> >
> > Try to wind a No. 40 gage wire my hand, YOU WILL BREAK IT 99 percent of
> the time.
> >
> > The coils are then enamel and bake and may be done several times.
> >
> > In connecting coil leads or any other motor leads together, these are
> not
> solder with low temperature solder. Sometimes the field coil are splice
> together with a copper splice and welded together with a tool that works
> like a pressure tack welder.
> >
> > If you want to rewind motors and never done it before, its is best to
> become a apprentice at a motor shop for four years or attend a two year
> course on motor maintenance.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: rewinding motors? (was "Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)")
> >
> >
> > Tim Stephenson wrote:
> > > To save money, could I get a toasted motor and rewind it?
> >
> > I don't know if *you* could; but it is certainly possible. It takes some
> > know-how and slightly specialized tools and parts, but it's not nearly
> > as bad as rebuilding an ICE engine.
> >
> > In most towns there are motor rewinding shops that have, or can get all
> > the parts needed. So your best bet is to take your salvaged motor to
> > them. Either have them do it, or ask to help :-)
> > --
> > *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> > -- Mahatma Gandhi
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/05
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The transmission is controlled by electric solenoids on the valve body,
which merely "routes" the fluid pressure. It retains the original torque
converter (although it will be locked) and the motor is spinning the pump
via the input shaft. So essentially it works exactly as before except that
it won't be allowed to shift at about 2000 rpms.
I am avoiding a rewire on the shift solenoids until I see how it behaves
driving in one gear at a time. I have the factory shift table for the
solenoids. The tranny was designed for mountain driving and had a lot of
variables that can be set by the driver already. It had a traction control
system that could sense if a wheel was slipping and actually adjust the
throttle to compensate. Of course this is a casualty of the conversion.
RE: AGM batts. Lots of EVers are using them with great results. Take a
look at www.evalbum.com and you will see plenty of them. I am undecided on
the brand I will use at this time. The real "tire burners" seem to all use
them. Your range will be based on your curb weight, the terrain, efficiency
of your system and of course how you drive.
My goals are not too ambitious. I work 3 miles from where I live, want power
on demand, ability to drive down I-70 if I want to, and a classy car. No 40
mile commutes like some folks here.
:-)
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 6:41 AM
Subject: RE: K&W Chargers
So the transmission is not hydraulic actuated? It is electric solenoids
going directly to the bands? How much energy will be expended keeping
those
bands clamped? Do you have the motor starting at 300 rpm and increasing
as
you give it throttle or does it stay fixed and you change gears to
increase
speed? I would love to go with the AGM batteries as well since all of my
cars have them and they work beautifully. So far all I see on the market
though are automotive AGM batteries which are meant for large current for
short periods and not for traction use. Do you know of an AGM traction
battery that I can look up the specs for? Using only 12 AGM batteries
would
save me a ton of weight that is for sure. I just want to make sure that I
can get the range I want (50 miles/day) using them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Ward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: K&W Chargers
Well...
Keep in mind my transmission is an "intelligent" type, not a brainless
hyrdromatic, and is controlled by a computer.
The motor will start via the Zilla controller by turning the key to the on
position and holding in the "S" button (no longer used) on the shift
lever.
This will bring the potbox resistance down to zero, allowing the
controller
to start. Once running the motor will level off at 300 RPM, running the
steering pump and air conditioner compressor as necessary and keeping the
transmission happy. This has been done by others and seems to work. In my
case I am using the original ICE throttle body complete with cables for
the
accellerator and cruise control. It also contains the throttle position
sensor (tps), necessary for the transmission control computer. It is not
very large, is made of aluminum and will work nicely on the plate I have
made up for it. This also allows me to set the "minimum" for the idle
speed.
RE: batteries.
I have been contemplating this for a long time. People I have great
respect
for (like John Wayland) tell me to go with the AGM's. I get nothing but
bad
feedback about "nasty floodies" and will save weight and maintenance.
RE: cost
My cost should be $6000-$7000 tops. I have the ability to do much of the
work myself and a lot of support via the school I work at. They are
fabricating most of the metal work I will need with exception of the taper
lock which Mike Brown has agreed to do. (Sorry Mike if you are reading
this
I have been messing around getting it to you).. My only big items left are
the battery pack, controller and whatever charger I end up with. The rest
is "hillbilly engineering"...yes we have them in MO.
:-)
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 2:39 PM
Subject: RE: K&W Chargers
The big question I have is how are you going to get the hydraulic fluid
ready for the actuation of the gears? There will be a serious delay
between
when you push the pedal to when the pump is running and getting the fluid
to
where it needs to go. I would think that spending upwards of 10,000
would
be a lot for just 30 miles a day. What are the amp/hour capacities of
the
AGM batteries you are going to use? The Trojan T-105s are 225 I think
for
a
6 hour discharge to 80% DOD. With a 144V system of T-105s you can expect
30
miles or so. I have yet to hear of an AGM that can deliver that much
current.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 2:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: K&W Chargers
I think my first message got cut off before I got a chance to post
it...so
if this is a repeat, I apologize to the group.
Thanks for your interest in my project..good luck with yours as well.
My car was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Fantastic vehicle in
outstanding condition, original retail price about $40,000 in 1995. So
Automatic or not, I grabbed it. Outstanding suspension, brakes,
features,
perfect for me in every other way.
The transmission would be hard to change, possibly requiring axle shafts,
having no clutch pedal, shift lever, etc, and of course additional cost.
On
the other had it is electronic controlled via 4 solenoids. This allows
me
to lock the torque converter, choose shift points, etc. as I please, or
just
lock it in one gear and go. The Hyundai automatic is about as efficient
as
you can get with an auto.
I expect to lose some efficiency, but my goal was to drive a 2900lb fully
accessorized car an average of 15 miles per day with a 156v pack of AGMs.
I
am told this will be possible, and I will likely get 30-35 miles actual
range. In this I will be happy.
I have 2 objectives. One is to keep the "niceness" of the car, and the
other is to drive my 10-15 mile per day average. I think it will do
both.
I have received pretty good advice from some great minds. One of them is
an
ex-GM service manager and he tells me the automatic transaxle will do
just
fine. In fact it is a bit easier to rig up than a manual, and the torque
converter weighs about the same as a manual flywheel on most engines.
I am told that because of how I am doing some things even my cruise
control
will work again.
The car has to be nice enough for my wife to drive it, so I suppose that
is
probably the MOST important aspect of the project!
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2005/09/19 Mon PM 12:37:57 EST
To: "'[email protected]'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: K&W Chargers
Mark,
Is there any special reason why you are running an automatic
transmission on your EV conversion? I would thik you are sacrificing a
huge
bit of energy just to keep the pump running for that. Didn't SAAB make
a
stick shift version of that car? I have been reading your blog - very
cool
indeed! I think when I begin the conversion of my 1990 240SX I will do
the
same thing so people can watch my progress as well.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: K&W Chargers
The model I am referring to specifically is the KW BC-250. Does anyone
have
any info on this model? Supposedly good up to 200v.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: ROBERT RICE<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Re. Breaking in new batteries
Carmen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Is there a best way, an OK way and a don't do this way to break in a new set
of batteries?
Carmine
Hi Carmine;
You bet! Batteries are a funny breed! With a new set ya hafta go easy.
Start with going for a few runs, only a few miles, come home and charge threm
up again. Go light on the amps. They need a light break in period.Several two
mile trips to the store, that sorta thing.Light cycles, not DEEP cycles, charge
up again. Extend your trips but no drag racing! High amps they don't like when
new. Bide your time on this one! Ya have alota bux tied up in that new pack,
don't kill them off, just yet. Go lightly a dozen trips, charge cycles, but
don't go crazy for a few hundred miles. Then you can go ask for more, deeper
cycles, but don't overextend it, like running them down so the car wont move! I
followed all that with a set of T 145's they held up great, giving me a almost
100 mile range, lasting for 22k miles, been told that that was good for T
145's. T 105's last longer, first used pack went for 20k miles. Your miliage
will vary, for sure!
Careful charging will extend the life for sure, watering with distilled
water as needed, NOT tap water! You should get a few years or more out of them,
at least til the Lithiun's get affordable<g>!
Seeya
Bob
One More Thing. Who's that guy on TV, that say's One More Thing.
While you make your short runs, it is best to check the torque value of your
battery connections after every five miles . The lead connection will shrink
back after each run. Re-torque with a good inch lbs torque wrench to the
recommend battery specifications.
Slip on a heavy wall foam insulation that is design for air condition piping
over the handles of the torque wrench.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Charging wires
NO
/
There should be problem if your conduits are metal. Should be metal or a
watertight sealtite conduit if running under the car.
I ran all my cables in a wireway duct that runs inside the car in my latest
EV. The battery cables are unshielded and all the control cables are double
shield. Also ran each class of cables and wires in flexible plastic conduit
inside the wireway. Have no problem for 20 years.
Addition Information on Battery Charger Safety Circuits.
Making a modification now where I am adding a contactor on my PFC-50
on-board charger DC output leads to the batteries.
This will be interlock with a AC contactor that provides power to the charger
and the battery box exhaust fan.
The exhaust fan has to come on first which runs awhile to purge any battery
fumes. It activates a fan pressure switch that provides control power to the
charger AC and DC contactors which also can be control by switches.
On shut down, the battery charger ampere is turn down, the charger circuit
breaker is off, the DC and AC contactors off, and the exhaust fan continues to
run for a time off delay for purging and battery fumes.
I find that after the battery charger has been off, not plug in, with the DC
leads connected to the battery all the time. I found I get a small arc when
disconnecting or connection of any battery connections. This is cause by the
battery charger capacitance circuits.
If you are using a off-board charger, than you might not notice this small
arc in your Anderson Connection which may be some distance away from the
battery pack.
If you just got done charging a battery pack that has a lot of gassing, and
you lift a connection, you could blow the pack. It is best to let the battery
pack air out or purge it with a all enclose plastic exhaust fan before you do
any disconnections.
Roland
I than turn on the charger circuit breaker and turn up the ampere as needed.
There is no arcing at any contactors and no arcing when you lift up a battery
connection.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion
List<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 12:29 AM
Subject: Charging wires
I have a large conduit for the cables from the rear 13 batteries to the
engine compartment. Can I pull the battery charging cables thru this and
run them along side the main power wires? I know it is all DC but can
there be interference during operation that will hurt the PFC20?
I have always planned on having the charger in back, i didn't realize I
had everything set up so the most negative and most positive of the pack
are up front under the hood.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Sep 2005 at 8:37, Mark Hanson wrote:
> I went to the junk yard for lunch yesterday climbing over the
> cars and found out that mid-80's Honda Civic's and Nissan Sentra's (175 70R13)
> have the same 4 lug nut pattern but instead of being exactly 4" diagonal like
> the Bomb, they are about 1/32" less so I can put a 20 thou feeler guage in the
> lug nut gap when I put the rim on.
I'd be hesitant to do this. Seems to me the unequal stress will lead to
distortion of the brake drums. This is a safety-related matter and I
wouldn't fool with it. Maybe a custom wheel dealer can help.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Sep 2005 at 7:41, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> I get nothing but bad
> feedback about "nasty floodies" and will save weight and maintenance.
Obviously you are listening to the wrong people. ;-)
Please allow me to give you some feedback about ^solid, practical,
economical^ floodies.
By a country mile, flooded golf car batteries are the most cost effective,
long-lived batteries you can put in your EV. I calculated that in my case
they would cost ONE-SEVENTH as much per mile as Optima G31s.
If floodies are charged properly, they're not difficult to keep clean, and
charging them is much less demanding that AGMs. I don't recommend 12 volt
flooded marine batteries, but unless you're building a high performance EV,
6 volt (or even 8 volt) golf car batteries can be a very good and economical
choice.
Don't let the AGM devotees prejudice you. Consider your own needs. But if
you really want or need AGMs, there are plenty of people here who can lead
you to satisfactory (if costly) deep cycle AGM batteries.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Sep 2005 at 19:14, Robert Chew wrote:
> The DC to DC
> convertor i have has a common ground between the input and output stages.
You really want your traction battery isolated from the chassis. I suggest
that you find a good home for this one, and get yourself a real EV type
DC:DC.
Brusa, Curtis, and Sevcon all make good EV type DC:DC converters, well
proven in road and industrial EVs. With the latter two brands, you may have
to get two lower voltage models and divide the pack between them; this can
run the cost up.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
on 9/20/05 7:50 AM, Roland Wiench at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ROBERT RICE<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: Re. Breaking in new batteries
>
>
>
>
> Carmen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> Is there a best way, an OK way and a don't do this way to break in a new set
> of batteries?
>
> Carmine
>
> Hi Carmine;
>
> You bet! Batteries are a funny breed! With a new set ya hafta go easy. Start
> with going for a few runs, only a few miles, come home and charge threm up
> again. Go light on the amps. They need a light break in period.Several two
> mile trips to the store, that sorta thing.Light cycles, not DEEP cycles,
> charge up again. Extend your trips but no drag racing! High amps they don't
> like when new. Bide your time on this one! Ya have alota bux tied up in that
> new pack, don't kill them off, just yet. Go lightly a dozen trips, charge
> cycles, but don't go crazy for a few hundred miles. Then you can go ask for
> more, deeper cycles, but don't overextend it, like running them down so the
> car wont move! I followed all that with a set of T 145's they held up great,
> giving me a almost 100 mile range, lasting for 22k miles, been told that that
> was good for T 145's. T 105's last longer, first used pack went for 20k miles.
> Your miliage will vary, for sure!
>
> Careful charging will extend the life for sure, watering with distilled water
> as needed, NOT tap water! You should get a few years or more out of them, at
> least til the Lithiun's get affordable<g>!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
> One More Thing. Who's that guy on TV, that say's One More Thing.
>
> While you make your short runs, it is best to check the torque value of your
> battery connections after every five miles . The lead connection will shrink
> back after each run. Re-torque with a good inch lbs torque wrench to the
> recommend battery specifications.
>
> Slip on a heavy wall foam insulation that is design for air condition piping
> over the handles of the torque wrench.
>
> Roland
>
Thanks for the info that will help a lot. BTW One more thing is said by
Jacky Chan's uncle in the Cartoon. Jackie Chans Adventures or something
like that.
Thanks again.
Carmine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
4 on 100mm and 4 on 4" are very very close together, and I'm betting that's
what your dealing with. It's not safe to run those on there as they'll loosen
on their own. I did the same thing with my GEM car, I found 14's for it and had
to have spacers made. If you check eBay for wheel spacers there is a seller who
will make you anything. On the GEM it has a 0 offset, not sure of the
bombardier is the same or not, but I had 38mm offset wheels so 1.5"~38mm for
the spacer made it fit right, and they can make you the proper adapter. They
were $140 for a set of 4, which is cheap.
Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hi,
I was curious how critical it is for the rim lug nuts to seat? I have wide
trailer tires, sort of golf cart like 20.5 x 8.0-10 and there are Bombardier
rims for street tires available about the same 21" diameter 145 80R12 but the
tires are rare. I went to the junk yard for lunch yesterday climbing over the
cars and found out that mid-80's Honda Civic's and Nissan Sentra's (175 70R13)
have the same 4 lug nut pattern but instead of being exactly 4" diagonal like
the Bomb, they are about 1/32" less so I can put a 20 thou feeler guage in the
lug nut gap when I put the rim on. Can it be machined larger or can I just run
like that as it doesn't appear to wobble? Or I suppose I could just use the
trailer tires/rims.
Thanks, Mark
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
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--- Begin Message ---
John Luck Home wrote:
> Is there a "best way" to charge one of these sealed Pb packs?
> For example, I know with my NiCad charging experience we used to
> discharge the whole pack to 1.1 volts per cell and then charge to
> 1.1xC at the one hour rate to ensure full charge.
This algorithm is simple, and works adequately for nicads, which aren't
harmed as much by deep discharges or overcharging. It would not work
well with lead acids, because the deeper you discharge them, the shorter
their life. Also, a 10% overcharge would work with floodeds (because you
can replace the water lost by gassing). But sealed lead-acids would be
routinely be overcharged and lose water.
> Later delta peak chargers were used to avoid the need for the
> discharge process as you could detect the "fully charged" condition
> with a drop in terminal voltage.
Most nicads have a voltage peak at full charge; past that, the voltage
falls again. It is another easy way to guess that they are full.
Lead-acids do not have this voltage peak; overcharging them won't cause
the voltage to fall until they are drastically overcharged and overheat
-- very bad!
> So assuming I am in complete "manual control" of the entire charging
> process for an AGM battery, how should I treat a single cell to
> ensure it is fully charged correctly.
You usually can't get at a single cell of a lead-acid battery -- they
hide the inter-cell connectors. We are forced to charge series strings
of cells. That makes all charging algorithms less accurate.
The best indication of full charge is specific gravity. You can measure
it (messily) with floodeds, but not sealed batteries.
Next best for sealed batteries is a pressure sensor inside the cell.
When it reaches full, it begins to gas. The pressure increase tells you
it is full. This was done with the first sealed lead-acids, which were
called VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead-Acid). But it's not practical with
most sealed batteries, as they have no provisions to measure pressure
(though you could add it).
Counting amphours is third best; basically, you watch the amphours taken
out, and put back 102-110% of what you took out. New batteries are close
to the 102% end. As they age, their efficiency drops so they need more
like 110% at end of life. Problems include the difficulty of making
accurate amphour measurements (errors accumulate), battery temperature
changes (has a large effect on amphour capacity), and self-discharge
causing errors in your amphour calculations, leading to over- or
under-charging.
That leaves us with voltage-based guesstimates. They work the worst, but
are cheap and simple. The voltage increases near fully-charged, but the
relationship is vague. The usual algorithm is "charge at 2%-4% of the
battery's amphour capacity until the voltage reaches 14.4v-15v." The
exact numbers vary depending on who you believe. This gets you somewhere
near fully charged. You twiddle the numbers a little if you discover
during subsequent discharge tests that you were a bit short of "full",
or if you seem to be overcharging (gets warm or vents).
An improvement on this is the dv/dt algorithm. Dv/dt means "the rate of
change in voltage". You end your charge cycle at a constant low current,
like 2%-4% of the rated amphour capacity (1-2 amps for a 50 amphour
battery). You measure the voltage periodically (say, once per minute),
and calculate the voltage change since the last measurement. Then divide
the voltage change by the time change. For example dv/dt = (14.525v -
14.526v) / 1 minute = 0.001v/minute.
During a charge cycle, the voltage normally increases quickly and
steadily (dv/dt is a large positive number). As it approaches full,
dv/dt falls. Depending on the charge rate, dv/dt will be around +0.02
volts/minute for a 12v battery. Dv/dt has the advantage that it works
equally well for new or old batteries, and over a wide temperature
range.
There are others. The patent office is full of magic algorithms that
claim to work miracles. The fact that they are not widely used should
give you some hints as to the efficacy.
--
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the
shore for a very long time." -- Andre Gide
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> The current NEDRA divisions are:
>
> Voltage Divisions
> A 241 V and above
> B 193V - 240V
> C 169V - 192V
> D 145V - 168V
> E 121V - 144V
> F 97V - 120V
> G 73V - 96V
> H 49V - 72V
> I 25V - 48V
> J 24V and below
>
> To run your vehicle in the "A " division you must have a nomial pack
voltage
> above 240 volts. We do not measure pack voltage , but trust all racers to
be
> honest and understand the rules.
>
> Dennis, What voltage were you running when you set that 8.81 record?
>
> Brian D. Hall ,, NEDRA record keeper...
>
>
>
> > The currenteliminator did not run close to 336v when it set the 8.81
> record.
> > So now what. Dennis Berube
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i would seconds David's hesitation.
btw, the honda bolt pattern is 4 x 100 (mm). This is a
common pattern, also on some mitsubishi's and older 4
lug VWs.
~fortunat
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2005 at 8:37, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> > I went to the junk yard for lunch yesterday
> climbing over the
> > cars and found out that mid-80's Honda Civic's and
> Nissan Sentra's (175 70R13)
> > have the same 4 lug nut pattern but instead of
> being exactly 4" diagonal like
> > the Bomb, they are about 1/32" less so I can put a
> 20 thou feeler guage in the
> > lug nut gap when I put the rim on.
>
> I'd be hesitant to do this. Seems to me the unequal
> stress will lead to
> distortion of the brake drums. This is a
> safety-related matter and I
> wouldn't fool with it. Maybe a custom wheel dealer
> can help.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 20, 2005, at 8:24 AM, David Roden wrote:
Please allow me to give you some feedback about ^solid, practical,
economical^ floodies.
And slow.
Sorry, but that is pretty much forced to be true by the nature of golf
cart batteries. A 6 volt, 60 pound, GC battery can dish out about 400
amps at 5.25 volts. The batteries push about 21 lbs per horse power
available. Make a vehicle that is 40% GC lead and with a
motor+controller combo that is about 80% efficient at full power and
you get a vehicle that pushes about 65 lbs per horsepower. You get all
the performance of a 36hp Beetle (stock 1954 to 1960 models.)
Some people would be very disappointed by this level of performance.
Others will be happy. But its important for a person contemplating an
EV conversion to at least understand it.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a question - in the statement below it was said that overcharging
would be OK in floodies because you could replace the water lost by gassing.
When you have to replace the water (with distilled water) what level of
charge do you lose? How long does the water take to become acid again?
Does it have to go through a complete charge cycle to become acid? Is there
some kind of formula or do you add water after and just deal with the loss
of charge?
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Grass rootes basic info
John Luck Home wrote:
> Is there a "best way" to charge one of these sealed Pb packs?
> For example, I know with my NiCad charging experience we used to
> discharge the whole pack to 1.1 volts per cell and then charge to
> 1.1xC at the one hour rate to ensure full charge.
This algorithm is simple, and works adequately for nicads, which aren't
harmed as much by deep discharges or overcharging. It would not work
well with lead acids, because the deeper you discharge them, the shorter
their life. Also, a 10% overcharge would work with floodeds (because you
can replace the water lost by gassing). But sealed lead-acids would be
routinely be overcharged and lose water.
> Later delta peak chargers were used to avoid the need for the
> discharge process as you could detect the "fully charged" condition
> with a drop in terminal voltage.
Most nicads have a voltage peak at full charge; past that, the voltage
falls again. It is another easy way to guess that they are full.
Lead-acids do not have this voltage peak; overcharging them won't cause
the voltage to fall until they are drastically overcharged and overheat
-- very bad!
> So assuming I am in complete "manual control" of the entire charging
> process for an AGM battery, how should I treat a single cell to
> ensure it is fully charged correctly.
You usually can't get at a single cell of a lead-acid battery -- they
hide the inter-cell connectors. We are forced to charge series strings
of cells. That makes all charging algorithms less accurate.
The best indication of full charge is specific gravity. You can measure
it (messily) with floodeds, but not sealed batteries.
Next best for sealed batteries is a pressure sensor inside the cell.
When it reaches full, it begins to gas. The pressure increase tells you
it is full. This was done with the first sealed lead-acids, which were
called VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead-Acid). But it's not practical with
most sealed batteries, as they have no provisions to measure pressure
(though you could add it).
Counting amphours is third best; basically, you watch the amphours taken
out, and put back 102-110% of what you took out. New batteries are close
to the 102% end. As they age, their efficiency drops so they need more
like 110% at end of life. Problems include the difficulty of making
accurate amphour measurements (errors accumulate), battery temperature
changes (has a large effect on amphour capacity), and self-discharge
causing errors in your amphour calculations, leading to over- or
under-charging.
That leaves us with voltage-based guesstimates. They work the worst, but
are cheap and simple. The voltage increases near fully-charged, but the
relationship is vague. The usual algorithm is "charge at 2%-4% of the
battery's amphour capacity until the voltage reaches 14.4v-15v." The
exact numbers vary depending on who you believe. This gets you somewhere
near fully charged. You twiddle the numbers a little if you discover
during subsequent discharge tests that you were a bit short of "full",
or if you seem to be overcharging (gets warm or vents).
An improvement on this is the dv/dt algorithm. Dv/dt means "the rate of
change in voltage". You end your charge cycle at a constant low current,
like 2%-4% of the rated amphour capacity (1-2 amps for a 50 amphour
battery). You measure the voltage periodically (say, once per minute),
and calculate the voltage change since the last measurement. Then divide
the voltage change by the time change. For example dv/dt = (14.525v -
14.526v) / 1 minute = 0.001v/minute.
During a charge cycle, the voltage normally increases quickly and
steadily (dv/dt is a large positive number). As it approaches full,
dv/dt falls. Depending on the charge rate, dv/dt will be around +0.02
volts/minute for a 12v battery. Dv/dt has the advantage that it works
equally well for new or old batteries, and over a wide temperature
range.
There are others. The patent office is full of magic algorithms that
claim to work miracles. The fact that they are not widely used should
give you some hints as to the efficacy.
--
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the
shore for a very long time." -- Andre Gide
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, I noticed.
I use the site extensively to get newbies started and on their way
to learning more about what EVs are available for sale.
I have many Alt Fuel discussion groups. The Electric ones are
getting
lots of hits with people motivated by the higher price per gallon.
My thanks to all involved to get it back on-line and running.
It is a very valuable resource :->
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
The real problem with having a common DC ground is personal safety.
With the grounds isolated you can touch a wire from your high voltage
battery pack while contacting the vehicle frame and not get zapped. With a
common ground, your high voltage battery pack connects electrically to the
vehicle frame - if you touched a bare terminal or wire while contacting
the vehicle frame you could get a nasty shock.
It also makes it safer if you crash your EV. A single high voltage wire
that comes loose in a crash and contacts a metal portion of your vehicle
will not pose an electrocution hazard while you are getting out of the car.
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To answer your subject line...Yes you have!
> Project about to undertake: Electric 1996 Golf Automatic.
>
> So here is my plan. I am looking for help and guidance, anyone that says I
> can't have electric windows, air conditioning, alarm systems, Rear window
> defogger and an Automatic transmission please don't bother. Well unless
> you have REALLY good information.
Sure you can have all of those things. THe only thing I'd change is the
automatic transmission.
> Advanced DC motor 9" traction motor. Is this too big?
Nope!
>
> 18 - 8 volt Trojan T-875 batteries.
I wouldn't recommend 8V batteries.
In real life T-875 batteries are only good for about 350 amps, and that's
only when they are fairly new and fully charged. As they age/discharge
max current drops to 300, then 250 and then -near end of life or end of
charge- less than 200 amps.
This means that when new/fully charged this pack can produce roughly 46hp
and near end of life/charge less than 21 hp.
Sure some people push the T-875 past these current limits, they usually
end up buying a new pack in less than a year.
I had 15ea T-875s in my truck. I managed to get almost 2 years out of my
pack and they were 2 years old when I got them. However, in order to keep
current low enough so that the pack voltage didn't drop below 105V,
acceleration was ...umm... gentle, stately, glacial, your choice. 0-60 in
about 80 seconds.
6V batteries, on the other hand, can handle 400-600 amps. Much better
performance.
> Controller, My own, with regen, I find what's available ridiculously
> expensive.
You might consider that their is probably a reason for that. None of the
folks that build controllers for the EV converters are getting rich.
At any rate, Regen with an ADC 9" is not a good idea.
In order to maximize efficiency in the motor, they normally advance the
brushes. However, if you regen with brushes advanced you will have
problems with arcing which can destroy the motor. So, for regen, you
normally move the brushes to a neutral posistion. This neutral position
isn't particularly efficient for either motoring or regen. ALso with the
brushes in the neutral position you can have problems with arcing when
pushing high current through the motor, so you end up limiting how hard
you can use the motor in both motor and regen mode.
The net reasult is that typically whatever energy you recover during regen
is wasted during driving because of the less efficient operation of the
motor. The motor also runs hotter, is power limited, and is more limited
(due to extra heating) in how long it can run at a given power level.
It's possible to regen with a series wound motor, but it's generally not a
good idea unless the motor has interpoles (and the ADC does not).
If you can find a Kostov motor with interpoles, it might be worth trying.
Though don't expect significant improvements in range. Reports I've seen,
from folks running regen controllers and series wound motors, typically
show little to no improvement in range.
> Air conditioning, yes but not sure how yet.
There are several ways. You can do as some folks have mentioned and drive
it off the main motor. This isn't to bad when the car is moving, but
EXTREEMLY inefficient when the car is stopped.
Air Conditioning usually requires about 1-2 hp. When producing only 1-2
hp the ADC runs at less than 50% efficiency.
A better solution woud be to use a 2hp PMDC motor rated to run at pack
voltage. Many folks have used surplus treadmill motors.
These motors are often 80%+ efficient.
> PS and PB, vacuum pump for the brakes, not sure on the Power Steering.
A couple options. You could try to find an electric power steering pump,
from an MR2 or whatever. Or you could use the same motor that is driving
the AC, if it's big enough. A 2hp motor could possibly handle both AC and
steering.
> Auto trans. why? Doesn't make sense to shift if this is a futuristic car.
> (Born and raised on stick shift. This is the first auto in the family in
> 15 years)
Doesn't make much sense to use an Automatic, at least not to me.
> VW Beetle auto has a final drive on 4.875:1. This equates to 5200 rpm in
> top gear at 70 mph. Beetle trans will fit into the Golf. Electric motor
> connects strait to the transmission, no torque converter used.
> Oil pressure will be
> created using an external dc driven pump. Over drive gearing will be
> discarded. VW trans is electrically shifted and already has it's own shift
> computer which will be discarded and replaced with a PIC based computer to
> change the shift points as needed. Can be programmed to upshift when
> touching the brake lights the help with regeneration.
Seems like a lot of work for very little gain, actually for a little bit
of loss...in range that is.
EV motors have such a wide torque band they don't need to be shifted very
often. Series wound DC motors produce MAXIMUM torque at zero rpm so you
don't need to use the clutch to get started.
I just leave my truck in 2nd gear for everything below 35 mph and only
shift to 3rd when I get up to 35-40 mph. 3rd is good up to 70+ mph.
You already know how to shift, so the occasionaly 2nd to 3rd (or vice
versa) shift shouldn't be that big of a deal.
However, if you absolutely insist on not shifting, then just build a more
powerfull controller and leave the transmission in 3rd all the time (or
use a single ratio tranny).
I mean, even with an automatic you are still going to have to shift
between forward and reverse, so what's the big deal?
>
> Batteries: I plan on cutting and welding on the body. A 10 battery box
> under
> the floor where the fuel tank and spare tire are, a box with three
> batteries
> under the rear seat and 5 more, not sure how yet under the hood with the
> motor.
On either side maybe?
> I am not yet sure where to buy from, his prices are kind of steep, well so
> are everyone else's that I have contacted.
The folks selling these parts aren't getting rich either. I like
EVparts.com, but mostly because they have the best website.
It might be a good idea to try and find the closest vendor so you can keep
shipping costs down.
About the only way you are going to get significantly cheaper prices is to
buy used components. The EV trading post and Ebay are the best places to
look.
Good luck, Pete.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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