EV Digest 4739
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: FWD direct drive "idea"
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I want to buy an EV car.
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: I want to buy an EV car.
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: I want to buy an EV car.
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Possible ground fault in shunt motor?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: FWD direct drive "idea"
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: More stupid newby questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Recommendations sought for AGM make & models
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Highway capable conversion on a budget?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVILbus and RS232
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AIR Lab's Battery Early Warning System (was RE: Help on BMS Pricing)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: rewinding motors? (was "Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)")
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Racing Battery Calculations
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EV List Help - SAVE THIS!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: I want to buy an EV car.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Saturn's Rollin... really this time!
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> I don't think that the CVs or the drive shafts are the weak point in FWD
I wonder about that since they always rate them so low:
http://www.tciauto.com/sport_compact.htm
> unfortunately the torque curve of the motors would require some sort of gear
> reduction (you would be going around 140mph when the motor was spinning
> 2000RPM!).
So mathematically, the motor won't have enough grunt to get the car up
to speed in an impressive fashion?
How is Mitsubishi doing it with their hub motor?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7816102/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/mitsubishi_goes.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a few for sale under conversions on www.grassrootsev.com ..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark
Your subject line states: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
The answer is, yes!
At 08:54 PM 19/09/05 -0400, Mark Grasser wrote:
This is incredible, I signed up last night and tonight I have 45 minutes
worth of EV emails. I was beginning to think I was alone!!
I went through that too! (I'm in Australia, in a small city).
Background: too much to list. Mostly Marine Electronics, some industrial
test electronics. Machine work, Bridgeport and toolmakers lathe
experience. Most of my life as an Electronics Design Engineer, Last five
years as a switching power supply / battery charger Design Engineer.
Good background for an EV converter.
Project about to undertake: Electric 1996 Golf Automatic.
Should be nice - just make sure it's a car you like, with as many of the
features you are wanting as is possible. Pain in the posterior to be adding
power windows, when you could have got a car with them in the first place.
So here is my plan. I am looking for help and guidance, anyone that says I
can't have electric windows, air conditioning, alarm systems, Rear window
defogger and an Automatic transmission please don't bother. Well unless
you have REALLY good information.
Most of those are to do with the 12V system, just the aircon and auto are
issues that will need to be addressed. The ramification of all the 12V
stuff is the size of the DC/DC converter and auxiliary battery.
My plan so far:
Advanced DC motor 9" traction motor. Is this too big?
No, not too big. But how about two 8" motors and a single-ratio
transmission? May be easier than making the auto work the way you want it.
Also, you are wanting regen, you'll probably be wanting a shunt motor(s) to
make it easier. Maybe a Kostov? How about used/surplus forklift motor? Jim
Husted (a motor guru we are lucky enough to have recently gained on the
list) has some surplus motors he can tweak to suit the application. Or he
can rewind/rebuild a secondhand motor/motors...
18 - 8 volt Trojan T-875 batteries.
144V - presumably in order to get enough volts to run the 9" up to the RPMs
you are looking at without adding too much weight. But the 8V batteries
have a reputation for being not as strong as 6V'ers, and teamed up with a
9" may have a dissapointing life span.
Controller, My own, with regen, I find what's available ridiculously
expensive.
Well, I thought that, built a 'bike sized one, and had a lot of discussions
with people on-list, then bought a Zilla controller. If you are going to
build one, the forum is the EVtech list (a spin-off from this one).
Building a controller is not hard, building one that survives in the
vehicle, looks after the motor under a range of conditions, looks after the
battery, etc, is not so easy (but can be done, if you have the time, and
that is where the money goes).
Battery charger, my own, Child's play, will be 3 step, variable rate
absorption, float, on demand equalization. PIC controlled.
Yes,should be simple for someone with your background. What topology are
you intending to implement? Transformer? PFC? (another discussion for the
EVtech list).
Air conditioning, yes but not sure how yet.
Either a seperate motor that only runs when you want aircon, or a pump on
the main motor that you have to run the main motor to get aircon.
PS and PB, vacuum pump for the brakes, not sure on the Power Steering.
Several PS pumps available, the MR2 PS pump gets a lot of mentions.
Auto trans. why? Doesn't make sense to shift if this is a futuristic car.
Don't be so old-fashioned, then. Stick a manual box in, leave it in 3rd and
throw the shifter away. Do the control with the electronics and contactors.
Otmar (the builder of Zilla controllers) has this in his Porche. Or build
an adaption into the transaxle that has just the ratio that is needed.
VW Beetle auto has a final drive on 4.875:1. This equates to 5200 rpm in
top gear at 70 mph. Beetle trans will fit into the Golf. Electric motor
connects strait to the transmission, no torque converter used. Oil
pressure will be created using an external dc driven pump.
There are people on this list (or were, anyway) that have done that and
works OK.
Over drive gearing will be discarded. VW trans is electrically shifted and
already has it's own shift computer which will be discarded and replaced
with a PIC based computer to change the shift points as needed. Can be
programmed to upshift when touching the brake lights the help with
regeneration.
Certainly do-able, but won't be simple to get 'perfect' under all conditions.
Batteries: I plan on cutting and welding on the body. A 10 battery box
under the floor where the fuel tank and spare tire are, a box with three
batteries under the rear seat and 5 more, not sure how yet under the hood
with the motor.
Sounds acceptably balanced, but the practicalities of venting, watering,
etc will need to be determined.
I am not yet sure where to buy from, his prices are kind of steep, well so
are everyone else's that I have contacted.
Hey, you've worked with CNCs and have seen their prices for parts, *that*
is steep. EV suppliers are out to make a living (for the most part), so
you'll find that buying new will be comparable wherever you go. Ebay and
industrial junk/liquidators may turn up some bits you can use at a much
lower price (motors, contactors, etc).
Any info from the gods amongst you will be greatly appreciated. I need to
get this project done before all the gas stations close in the spring. :-)
Ahah! a man with a time-frame. That'll give you much less 'wriggle-room' to
pick up stuff surplus.
If it is ok with you guy I am going to put this up large in the garage
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world". -- Mahatma Gandhi
Lee Hart (a man you need to pay a lot of attention to) has that as one of
his tag lines. Quite appropriate for EVers.
What is your planned use for the vehicle? be dissapointing to build a
vehicle without the range or carrying capacity to do your daily duties.
Hope to stimulate your ideas.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the right price, _anything_ is for sale.
Not quite. It was reported that Jay Leno offered a cool million to save
an EV1 from the crusher and was turned down flat.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome Mark. If you are sharp enough to build your own controller you
might discard the transmission(or leave it in a single gear), use two motors
and a powerful controller. It is not hard to use 2 motors and 2000 amps and
a single gear ratio. You will easily have over 100 mph and your automatic
transmission. Much more efficient. Some of the racers do this with great
results. Otherwise you might be giving us advice soon. I'm sure you will
design your DC/DC converter and charger also. There are successful
automatics out there. I'm just not a fan of them. Roland Wiench with the
El Camino is expert on automatics. I thought his El Camino had an automatic
but he must have redesigned or I am wrong..
Many contributors to the list have started small businesses building
electric vehicle components. Rich Rudman on chargers & Otmar on
controllers.
Here are some url's of two motor EV's.
http://www.commutercars.com/ Tango. Very fast.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/035.html Record holder and very nicely
designed vehicle.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/293.html A very fast car and test bed for
Zilla controllers.
http://www.evworld.com/archives/oped/goldstein.html Cute sports car running
on two motors at 72v using just 12 6v golfcart batteries. Well designed and
nice for what it is.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html Roland Wiench's El Camino which I
thought was automatic.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/517.html Auto transmission EV.
Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:54 PM
Subject: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
This is incredible,
I signed up last night and tonight I have 45 minutes worth of EV emails. I
was beginning to think I was alone!!
First an introduction and short history.
Name is Mark Grasser
Live in Eliot Maine for 3 years now
Mostly lived in Kenosha, Wisconsin, a few years in Mount Clemens MI.
Background: too much to list. Mostly Marine Electronics, some industrial
test electronics. Machine work, Bridgeport and toolmakers lathe
experience. Most of my life as an Electronics Design Engineer, Last five
years as a switching power supply / battery charger Design Engineer.
Project about to undertake: Electric 1996 Golf Automatic.
So here is my plan. I am looking for help and guidance, anyone that says I
can't have electric windows, air conditioning, alarm systems, Rear window
defogger and an Automatic transmission please don't bother. Well unless
you have REALLY good information.
My plan so far:
Advanced DC motor 9" traction motor. Is this too big?
18 - 8 volt Trojan T-875 batteries.
Controller, My own, with regen, I find what's available ridiculously
expensive.
Battery charger, my own, Child's play, will be 3 step, variable rate
absorption, float, on demand equalization. PIC controlled.
Air conditioning, yes but not sure how yet.
PS and PB, vacuum pump for the brakes, not sure on the Power Steering.
Auto trans. why? Doesn't make sense to shift if this is a futuristic car.
(Born and raised on stick shift. This is the first auto in the family in
15 years)
VW Beetle auto has a final drive on 4.875:1. This equates to 5200 rpm in
top gear at 70 mph. Beetle trans will fit into the Golf. Electric motor
connects strait to the transmission, no torque converter used. Oil
pressure will be created using an external dc driven pump. Over drive
gearing will be discarded. VW trans is electrically shifted and already
has it's own shift computer which will be discarded and replaced with a
PIC based computer to change the shift points as needed. Can be programmed
to upshift when touching the brake lights the help with regeneration.
Batteries: I plan on cutting and welding on the body. A 10 battery box
under the floor where the fuel tank and spare tire are, a box with three
batteries under the rear seat and 5 more, not sure how yet under the hood
with the motor.
I have been in contact with EV of America, some of my choices are by his
recommendation.
I am not yet sure where to buy from, his prices are kind of steep, well so
are everyone else's that I have contacted.
Any info from the gods amongst you will be greatly appreciated. I need to
get this project done before all the gas stations close in the spring. :-)
If it is ok with you guy I am going to put this up large in the garage
"*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world". -- Mahatma Gandhi
Says it all.
Thanks for your time.
Newby,
Mark Grasser
I am going to take a perfectly good
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Trough writes:
>
> > At the right price, _anything_ is for sale.
>
> Not quite. It was reported that Jay Leno offered a cool million to save
> an EV1 from the crusher and was turned down flat.
Apparently not the right price...
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 19, 2005, at 5:37 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
That's odd. What fiddling of the field will make a shunt motor slow
down?
More field current will slow a shunt motor.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Both good questions.
I rarely hear of FWD CVs or drive shafts breaking (unless modified) under
power, however I do hear of transaxles breaking. However, that is my
experience, YMMV. I notice that the web site you point to, they are drag
racing FWD Hondas- that may explain why they want big axles and CVs.
As for motors for the hubs, I was basing my comment on ADC, UWM or Warp
motors. As for Mitsubishi and their motors I do not know. Maybe others can
comment.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: September 19, 2005 8:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: FWD direct drive "idea"
Don Cameron wrote:
> I don't think that the CVs or the drive shafts are the weak point in
> FWD
I wonder about that since they always rate them so low:
http://www.tciauto.com/sport_compact.htm
> unfortunately the torque curve of the motors would require some sort
> of gear reduction (you would be going around 140mph when the motor was
> spinning 2000RPM!).
So mathematically, the motor won't have enough grunt to get the car up to
speed in an impressive fashion?
How is Mitsubishi doing it with their hub motor?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7816102/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/mitsubishi_goes.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kluge wrote:
> In a series motor, do the field and armature each see 1/2 the
> nominal voltage?
No. The field winding only uses 1% or 2% of the power. The other 98-99%
of the power goes to the armature.
> If you connected two controllers to a series wound motor - one to
> the armature and one to the field - would you end up with a motor
> that was seeing twice the amps or twice the volts?
No; you'd have what is called a "separately excited" or sepex motor. The
controller powering the field would supply only 1-2% of the power, i.e.
it can be tiny and has almost no load.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> Does the AGM have the same AMPhour capacity as the T105?
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> There are 16 Trojan T105s in my Jet Electra Van's battery box.
> The box is basically made for that size battery. I'd like to
> replace the T105s with AGMs. It would be nice to be able to
> pop in a same size AGM, even use the existing interconnects.
>
> It looks like Concord Battery makes an AGM that is the same
> dimensions as the T105. What other AGMs would be a good fit?
So does Trojan, I think.
> What experiences have people had with Concorde batteries?
I have Concorde 12v AGMs in my EV. They are approaching 8 years old now.
10 of the original 12 are still delivering at least half their original
capacity.
My Concordes perform somewhere between high-performance AGMs (Hawkers,
Optimas) and flooded batteries (Trojans, USBs). Their Peukert numbers,
internal resistance, amphour capacity at various currents etc. are in
between them.
People have had bad luck with Concordes if you draw high currents (like
they do with AGMs). I turned the current limit in my controller all the
way down, so I never draw over 400 amps, and only draw over 100 amps for
less than a minute at a time. This has no doubt extended their life.
AGMs aren't supposed to leak acid, but they all do. But only *some* of
them leak, and they leak a lot *less* than floodeds. I'd say half my
Concorde's terminals show at least some signs of leakage, but it's minor
-- probably 1% of what I had previously with floodeds.
I also have a rather aggressive battery management system (my Battery
Balancer, which I built myself). It monitors each battery voltage, and
can charge it at up to 15 amps to hold it in balance. This has also
allowed me to use the batteries far past the point where they would have
had to be replaced due to the large differences in capacity from age.
Bottom line: I'd use them again if I was building a low-performance
high-range EV, where I wanted the cleanliness of sealed batteries but
couldn't afford Optimas or Hawkers.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
> I can always keep adding to the conversion until I have it the way
> I initially wanted it, sort of how like John Bryan did with his
> Ghia, that started out with floodeds and ended up a highly efficient
> tire smoker with 45 miles range highway to 80% and acceleration to
> match or beat most cars on the road.
John's EV is a great example and role model to copy.
>> 30-mile range at 50 mph is tough
> What was the general formula on battery weight percentage versus
> range? I looked in the archives for it and didn't find it.
Bill Dube's "rule of thumb" is that 800 lbs of floodeds equals one
gallon of gas. I.e. if you convert a car that originally got 20mpg and
load it with 800 lbs of floodies, you can expect 20 miles range.
How many mpg did your Triumph get? I would guess about 25 mpg? With the
940 lbs of batteries I suggested, this would be 940/800 x 25mpg = 30
miles.
> I have found multiple ways to fit up to 25 Optimas...
Optimas or other AGMs would be great if you can afford them. Your 30
mile range at 50 mph requires discharging the batteries in less than an
hour; AGMs are better than floodeds in this application. I was figuring
floodeds because they are cheap, and easy to charge. If you can fit them
(and get at them for maintenance and watering), they are a better choice
for your "training wheel" batteries.
Here's a trick for fitting batteries in odd locations. Make your battery
boxes out of 1" styrafoam. It's easy to cut and fit it into the nooks
and crannies. Then fiberglass it, inside and out. Now you have custom
molded, insulated, acid-proof boxes that are tightly integrated into the
unibody.
> Wouldn't 40% in batteries give more range? The TZero did 80-100
> miles @ 60-65 mph with 50% its weight in batteries... Blue Meanie
> could do 25-30 miles @ 60 mph with 25% weight in batteries.
Your examples are at the extreme end -- one might say the "marketing
exaggerated" end of the range. They are the best you can do under
absolutely ideal conditions by totally discharging the batteries.
> I guess 30 miles going 50 with 40% weight in batteries would
> be a worst case scenario?
Yes; it's the sort of thing you could do every day without murdering the
batteries from excessively deep discharges.
> I am considering a bad boy charger, but how reliable have they
> usually been? With a proper timer, is it reasonable to expect to
> be able to set it and forget it on a pack of floodeds?
"Reliability" is a measure of how likely it is to break. If you build it
yourself, reliability is primarily determined by the quality and safety
margin of the parts you used, and how good your construction skills are.
A bad-boy charger can be very reliable, because it is simple and you can
pick parts with huge safety margins.
I think you mean "dependability" -- how likely is the bad-boy to
properly charge your batteries. The answer is, it depends -- on YOU! Bad
boys are completely unregulated; they blindly charge for however long
you set the timer for. They depend on you to estimate how long is
needed, and set the timer accordingly.
It's a trial-and-error process to figure out the time as a function of
your state-of-charge gauge. Here's a crude example. Suppose your bad-boy
charges at an average of 10 amps (start at 15, ends at 5 amps). Your
E-meter says you used 50 ampshours; so set the timer for 5 hours (10
amps x 5 hours = 50 amphours). When the timer shuts off, see if the
E-meter reads full. If not, charge a little more. If the E-meter is at
+10ah, charge an hour less next time. By trial-and-error you can make
out a chart to identify charging time needed for various depths of
discharge. Your parents could use this chart as well (if you explain
it).
> >The Jack & Heinz 30v 500a aircraft generator I used in
> >my first EV would match the ADC motor, and is lighter
> >and half the price.
> And if I found one used, what price could I get them for?
They are old, and either used or surplus. The price can be anything from
$100-$500. Burden Sales had a smaller 400-amp version of this motor for
$179 recently.
> The Cursit does sound nice. I don't want a contactor setup,
> so as to keep from murdering my batteries, blowing my motor,
> or shredding my transmission. Although the possible low end
> performance with a contactor setup would be nice.
That's reasonable. It's not the contactor controller itself that murders
the batteries; it's the leadfoot driving! Like the bad-boy charger, a
contactor controller (usually) has no protection against operator
exhuberance or carelessness.
> How reliable are the Curtis gauges and what are they going for?
They are reliable, but only slightly less expensive and have a lot less
functionality.
> [low temperatures] Will the affect on range be about 40% loss or so?
With lead acid, the colder they get, the worse they perform. You'll have
less than half the range if they chill down to below freezing. It's not
that the amphour capacity is that much lower; it's that the battery's
internal resistance gets so high that you'd hav to drive at half the
speed to get the same range as when they were warm.
>> [used, surplus] are good sources of discount parts.
> Only problem is finding one for cheap now with these gas prices.
I don't see any reduction of used or surplus parts yet. Fact is, the
vast amount of used and surplus goes unsold; Americans seem to prefer
new, high-tech parts, no matter what they cost.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote [about Otmar's version]:
> Nice, and simpler. It does depend on having some handshake signals
> present at the connector, but that is usually a good assumption.
Even if they aren't you can connect the handshake lines to a wall-wart
or other simple power supply.
> What about power for the EVILbus?
You need a separate source of 9-18 vdc at 20ma. The two 150 ohm
terminator resistors connect to these.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
>
> I got some very good inputs from this list regarding
> the pricing of the system. I was expecting more
> responds though. This would help me to make my
> decision on whether it makes sense to take the risk
> and bring this system to the market.
>
> It is not clear from the previous PDF file how the
> system work. And, I did it on purpose to find out
> what you think the system should do. I updated the
> PDF file and also made a 2-min video clip showing how
> it works in our test vehicle.
>
> I hope to get more respond this time.
>
> http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/EWS_Sheet.pdf
> http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/EWSDemo.wmv
Ed, I'm intereste in your project and would be happy to comment; but the
.pdf page just comes up with a few pictures and pretty graphics, and no
text, descriptions, or links. I can't tell what it does or how it works.
Likewise, your .wmv file won't work on any computer I have.
So don't take the lack of comments to mean lack of interest. It may just
mean many people can't view it.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shari,
I was going thru old emails and found this.
If I understand you correctly the potbox microswitch should be wired in series
with the 12 v power going to the contactor so that when you let up on the
accelerator and it goes back to rest position, the contactor is turned off?
Doesn't that make for lots of on/off cycles for the contactor and also wear on
the contacts?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
>
> If you are using the Curtis/PMC potbox microswitch as a deadman switch as
> it is intended to be used by the factory (opens the contactor every time
> you lift your foot from the throttle), the contactor is never opening under
> load in normal use. If you are talking about some kind of abnormal failure
> mode, one would hope you wouldn't be doing this more than once anyway.
>
> Shari Prange
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--- Begin Message ---
Whoo-ee. Just checking!
Actually, I used to be a coil-winder LOOONG ago. The smallest we used was
#51 - a little smaller than fine hair - loading the shuttle was more working
by feel than by sight. But I get your point, and agree that I would be wise
to hire someone else (or buy a better motor). Thanks for the straight answer
(and I appreciate the detail).
-Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: rewinding motors? (was "Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)")
> If you are rewinding just the field windings, coils for contactors,
transformers or reactor coils, this is the easy part if there is no
insulation paper or rods between each layer that has to be enamel at each
layer. I normally wind large communications coils that are not random
wround.
>
> As you unwrap the coils, you count how many turns they are. Then you turn
on the same size wire. It may look like it's random wrap, but you must make
sure you do not pile it all on one side, but sweep back and forth as you go.
>
> You can have the same number of random wraps on several different coils,
but the inductance reactance will be different, so one coil may have to have
another layer of winding to for adjustments.
>
> In some cases there is mica insulation paper that is install between each
layer.
>
> If you are doing a small job, where you do not need thousand of feet of
wire, which comes in 1000 to 5000 foot reels or 50,000 to over 100,000 feet
pails, motor shops can roll some off for you if they happen to have a empty
wire reel.
>
> Its cost about the same if you let them roll the wire right on to your
coil form as it would onto a reel. The coil form must be prepare correctly
for accepting the new wire.
>
> The unwinding and rewinding machines, unwind the coils and keep count of
the total number of turns and number of turns per layer. Then it rewinds
the same size wire using the same number count.
>
> You must specific what type of wire insulation and temperature rating you
want.
>
> In some cases, the number of turns are critical, so I will turn another
layer and than test the coil for inductance reactance and unwrap one turn of
wire for adjustments.
>
> It is better to not wrap coils by hand, because you will scratch or nick
the insulation and may stretch the wire. The coils are spin on the coil
machine that allows equal tension.
>
> Try to wind a No. 40 gage wire my hand, YOU WILL BREAK IT 99 percent of
the time.
>
> The coils are then enamel and bake and may be done several times.
>
> In connecting coil leads or any other motor leads together, these are not
solder with low temperature solder. Sometimes the field coil are splice
together with a copper splice and welded together with a tool that works
like a pressure tack welder.
>
> If you want to rewind motors and never done it before, its is best to
become a apprentice at a motor shop for four years or attend a two year
course on motor maintenance.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: rewinding motors? (was "Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)")
>
>
> Tim Stephenson wrote:
> > To save money, could I get a toasted motor and rewind it?
>
> I don't know if *you* could; but it is certainly possible. It takes some
> know-how and slightly specialized tools and parts, but it's not nearly
> as bad as rebuilding an ICE engine.
>
> In most towns there are motor rewinding shops that have, or can get all
> the parts needed. So your best bet is to take your salvaged motor to
> them. Either have them do it, or ask to help :-)
> --
> *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/05
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think I would have it turn the contactor on and off all the time. Where
it's good is with the Curtis controllers there are three small pins on it. The
bottom two are the pot input and the top one is an enable where you put pack
voltage positive to it to allow opperation. You could connect this through the
micro on the pot box. I believe this is the intention of that micro switch.
Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Shari,
I was going thru old emails and found this.
If I understand you correctly the potbox microswitch should be wired in series
with the 12 v power going to the contactor so that when you let up on the
accelerator and it goes back to rest position, the contactor is turned off?
Doesn't that make for lots of on/off cycles for the contactor and also wear on
the contacts?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
>
> If you are using the Curtis/PMC potbox microswitch as a deadman switch as
> it is intended to be used by the factory (opens the contactor every time
> you lift your foot from the throttle), the contactor is never opening under
> load in normal use. If you are talking about some kind of abnormal failure
> mode, one would hope you wouldn't be doing this more than once anyway.
>
> Shari Prange
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
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--- Begin Message ---
My ideas:
Use the MR2 pump to supply pressure to the tranny and steering when the DC
9" is stopped. Once the car is underway the internal trans oil pump takes
over and the MR2 pump is shut off. A one way valve in the line from the MR2
pump would be needed. Use the tranny oil pan as the MR2 pump's reservior.
Air conditioning regen. Once the evap core is cool you don't need to run the
AC comp a whole lot. This would be a good way to do some "regen" down hills
and when braking.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was doing some calculations on some batteries, and thought the list
would like to see the results:
15.0 lb/hp 1994 Camaro Z28
7.6 lb/hp New Corvette
est 9.0 lb/hp White Zombie
est 15.7 lb/hp 9Electric with Orbital lead acid batteries ($3k)
est 12.2 lb/hp 9Electric with GP3300 Nimh C cells ($20k)
800 amps, > 90 second run time, 312 V nominal, 16 Nimh cells in
parallel. White Zombie 348 volts Hawkers, 15 second run time.
I chose a 90 second run time, as that is twice as long as needed to
do a 1 mile acceleration run, and 1.3 times as long as needed to do a
2 mile acceleration run.
Caveats: The electric numbers are based on estimated losses, and
improved by the increase of the torque curve area for racing rpm
ranges. The costs are for single units, the Nimh would probably drop
with a quantity purchase. The car is stock weight with the GP3300
batteries! It is 500 lbs over stock with the Orbitals.
More caveats: Based on specs found on the web. Would need to test
that the GP3300 batteries play nice when paralleled.
Conclusions: Will probably go with lead acid for cost reasons, unless
I can get a real deal on the Nimh batteries. Weight reduction will be
important.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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We've had quite a few new members in recent months. Some are now ready to
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--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Sep 2005 at 21:03, Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > > At the right price, _anything_ is for sale.
> >
> > Not quite. It was reported that Jay Leno offered a cool million to save an
> > EV1 from the crusher and was turned down flat.
>
> Apparently not the right price...
Or not presented to the right person.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Well the Saturn conversion is rolling really this time. As you may recall I was
having some difficulties with my main contactor not being turned on by the
Zilla, and boy was this an interesting one to track down. I sent the hariball
back to Otmar who checked it out and it was fine. I got it back and hooked it
back up with the same result so I started going over everything agin, here's
what I found.
I used the car's stock ignition and start wires for the run and crank wires. I
had measured about 12 volts at these wires, but it wasn't quite what the 12
volt battery was putting out, but I figured it was probably close enough. So
upon rechecking everything it appeared ok with the meter, but for some reason I
decided to use the test light I happened to see laying in the same drawer. Low
and behold, I got only a dim light with the run and nothing on the crank wire.
Jump these inputs from the 12 volt battery "click" contactor comes on (bang
head against wall now). So I take a closer look at the wiring diagram, those
wires were running through the computer and I guess it didn't like the fact
that I didn't have an engine hooked to it any longer so it, I'm guessing, was
putting out a sense voltage to look for whatever was connected to it.
So I pulled the steering column covers off and found a more direct place to
splice in to and now things are working great! I've got the current limit set
to 500 amps and am yet to see over 300 for battery break in purposes. I have
been really trying to keep it under 200. Only issue is one of my batteries is a
reject already. I went for my longest drive today at about 15 miles, my emeter
(ok link 10) was indicating 40% remaining, which was a little deeper than I
wanted to go, but ok it wasn't batterycide yet. I got my meter out before
charging to check and all were in the 12.4ish range give or take a normal
varriation, except one was at 8.6! Yes I used 12 volt batteries, I know boo
hiss. So I think I need to take that one back tomorrow. I did specifically make
sure they were all dated the same and all came off of the same pallet, but I
guess I got a bad one. I tried an equalization charge and it came back up close
to the others, then went on a little 5 mile drive and checked !
it, 10.6
volts, so yep it's a dud.
Anyhow despite this I've put probably close to 60 miles on it thus far and I'm
very pleased. And I finally had time tonight to clean the 3 years of dust out
of the inside, yuck. This is my first solo private conversion, but not really
my first conversion. I had the luxury of having a High School EV program I
participated in from 98-02 where I almost single handedly converted a car
myself, well sort of, I'd do one thing on one car and do something else on the
other so I basically got to do just about everything. I guess I'm kind of
woundering how this would compare to others first conversion with no prior
experience.
Of course it's far from "done." I still need to find a shop to make me some
rear springs to restore the ride height. The fronts seem to be fine though, I
didn't measure it before, but it looks about right. I also am running with no
power brakes and the non powered power steering rack still in it. I found a
pump used in mid 80's Cadillacs to boost low brake vaccum, so I'm hoping that
will work for me. I also need to move my charger cord to the former gas filler
door and make lids for my rear battery boxes and devise a way to turn on my
vent fans while charging.
We're Gettin There!
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
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