EV Digest 4747
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Shunt motor armature gone to ground
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Need help with conceptual math
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Have I found the ultimate EV discussion list?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Chloride Controller Info needed for G-van
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Am I charging correctly?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Aluminum Pipe
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Solectria-Sunrise Body on eBay
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Need help with conceptual math
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Shunt motor armature gone to ground
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Lee Hart Can You Help Me , EV Designer
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Am I charging correctly?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Hybrid airplane. 1.5 hours prue electric flight time.
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Hybrid airplane. 1.5 hours prue electric flight time.
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Need info on B&B batteries
by BR Deshpande <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles in my
EV
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles in my
EV
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Quick question: I just traced down a ground fault in my E20 to the
armature connections on the motor (3-4hp shunt wound). I feel smart, but
this is a fault that can pass 30+ amps (lift motor).
Can this simply be accumulated dust from the brushes for the past 30
years? The brush cap is sealed (no vents to outside); maybe it's full o
crud.
Does this make sense?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
The distance in free air is not the problem. Its when these string of
batteries end up with both ends of the strings are together that are touching
each other.
Do the following test using one battery:
Using a volt meter, measure the voltage of the battery.
Now keeping one lead on a post, move the other lead off the other post and
making contact on the plastic top next to this post. Read the voltage.
Slide the test lead across the top of the battery closer to the other post.
Notice that there will be a voltage change from maximum to a minimum reading.
If the battery is new and has never been charge or the battery cells never
vent, you may not get a reading.
Do this test on a older battery that has been charge and cycle many times, and
you will get a voltage reading. The voltage is tracking across the top of the
battery.
If you get a reading in the middle of the battery along its edge that is half
the voltage of the battery, than its time to clean the batteries.
No matter how much you clean it, you will still get a small indication.
Looping the string of 12 volt batteries with 6 batteries per roll, you will
have 12 volts x 12 batteries = 144 volts between two adjacent batteries, NOT
GOOD.
Charging these batteries with the two end batteries in the string, will
increase the tracking from and will arc over.
Also, if your battery pack is in a uninsulated metal battery rack, the charging
voltage of 150 volts or more will be from any one of the batteries to the frame
of the battery rack.
The best layout for a string of batteries is to have all the batteries in one
roll. If that is not possible, than loop back with a air space between the
rolls.
In my battery pack, the maximum voltage difference is 72 volts between only six
batteries in the pack of 30. I space these at about 1/4 inch inside a
insulated battery box.
I used to have a 90 cell battery that was in a epoxy coated aluminum box. One
time I was charging these cells I notice arcing of the many cells to the sides
of the box when it was dark. You cannot see this faint small arcing in the day
light.
So even with my T-145's, they are space, I do the dark test once in a while.
Battery Connection Test:
In one of my E-mails, I stated do not work on the batteries while it is
charging. There will be the maximum charger voltage from any one of the
battery post to the ground frame of the EV if it ground to the same ground of a
on board charger.
One exception to this, is to do a BATTERY CONNECTION TEST WHILE THE CHARGER IS
ON. This is very dangerous and you must take extra ordinary cautions to do this
test. You have to dress up the EV and your self in insulation rubber blankets
and rubber gloves to do this test. I used to work high voltage live over 10,000
volts.
Drape a rubber mat over any metal part of the EV you may be contact in. Place
another rubber mat over the batteries, except the ones you are going to test.
This test, is to check the continuity of the battery connections that go from
one battery to the next. You will perform a SHUNT TEST by placing the test
leads of a multimeter in parallel with the connection from one battery to the
next.
Place the test leads on the lead post of the battery, not the cable terminal
end. Using the millivolt or even the milliamp scale, a good connection should
read about 0.01 volts or less.
If one of the battery connections read higher than the others, keep the test
leads on that connection, tighten that connection until the voltage reading is
the same as all the others battery connections.
I used a In.Lb torque wrench on my first installation and torque to the battery
specifications. Then I do the shunt test to see what the voltage reading is. I
than used that as a reference for a quick check of all the connections using
the shunt test.
When installing a new set of batteries, record this reading so you can used it
as a reference for your next test.
After running a EV with new batteries for about 5 miles, it is recommended to
perform this test to see how much the battery connection shrinks back.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John J Januszewski<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:43 PM
Subject: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
Hello folks,
Sorry if this has been answered before. The search feature in the archive
is tedius at best for finding answers. Type in battery connnections and
just about every post comes up because the word bettery is used in just
about every post. Anyways... The question. Preceded by a statment or two.
I plan on having two 144V strings of batteries. Each will be two rows of
six positioned so the connections can run pos to neg down one side and up
the other with a disconncect at one end (to split the pack for servicing)
and the two cables coming out the other end to go to Zilla, via contactors.
With the batts positioned right, the two cables and their connecting bolts
will be two battery widths apart at the end closest to the controller.
I have read somewhere that this is not a good idea because of the voltage
potential at the one end could cause some kind of arcing problem. Yet, the
cable connects on my Zilla for the B+ and B- are about an inch apart. If
there were to be a problem with arcing, I would think it would happen
there.
Am I missinterpreting the "potential" problem? Are there other contributing
factors that I am missing?
Thank You
John J
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan -
You could make the problem a bit more tractable by simplifying it to one of
these two questions:
1. What would the cost of gas have to be for this conversion to pay for
itself in N years? ( And, you decide what you want N to be - 10 years, for
example)
OR
2. If gas averages $5/gallon ( or, some other price - you pick it) for the
next several years, how long will it take for this conversion to pay for
itself?
The cost of electricity to recharge probably won't be a major factor. The
big costs will be the initial converision and periodic battery replacement.
And, decide what at speed you really will be driving this distance every
day. There's a big difference in power needed at 60 compared to 70 MPH.
Also, don't let anyone convince you that you can do things to get the Cd of
your truck down to 0.25 in order to make this work.
That raises another question - do you really need a truck to carry you to
work and back? If you're concerned about payback period, why not convert a
small, light, aerodynamic car? ( but, it would have to be one that can
carry a lot of lead)
Phil
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Need help with conceptual math
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:05:48 -0500
There is some detail or too many unknown variables that stifle me when
I attempt to figure these out.
My current situation is a 2001 Ranger with a 4cyl/5spd. Commute for
school is 50 miles round trip unfortunately. Truck averages 20 mpg...
Fuel might be $5/gal or more(or no fuel at all..) with this Houston
hurricane.
At what fuel price point do I actually save money by having this
vehicle be electric? How long does it take to pay off the conversion
cost in fuel savings? How much will it cost to recharge it 5+ days a
week?
Potential conversion items:
Zilla, PFC charger, a 9" motor(or some other size if that would be
better) from Jim Husted that costs less then an ADC, any batteries and
amount. Could put them under the bed or in the bed or both.
25 miles there, and 25 back, can't charge there. Nearly all highway.
60, 65, an 70 mph limits.
I will do it if the figures show a savings over time. Will this be cost
worthy?
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might be able to improve motor efficiency by 1% or 2% with a well
designed automatic transmission, but I think you'll end up loosing that
much, or more, in the pumps and controlls. If you come up with a really
good design, you /might/ improve total efficiency by 1%. You have to
decide whether or not that is worth all the extra cost, complexity, and
time
If there is a CVT tranny available for this car that might be easier. Still
less efficient than a manual but better than a traditional auto tranny.
LR...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked at it as just the operational costs alone.
If you try to roll in the cost of the conversion vs. a
gas car that is paid off, that isn't a fair
comparison. Try this:
batteries: $1200, amortized over a 4 yr. lifespan =
$300/yr.
charging cost: $72/yr. ($6/mo. for me).
$372 per year. I drive 3,000 mi. per year. (Small
town, sorry)
3000 miles, at 30 mpg (Honda Civic = 100 gallons of
gas. Gas is $3/gal. = $300. Electric loses in my
case. But the warm fuzzies I get from students and
fellow drivers, plus the guiltless driving for all of
those wonderful reasons makes me eat the $72 no sweat.
Here's another one:
Gas cars depreciate 20% the moment we drive them off
the lot, and continuously as we rake up the miles and
gaskets go, carbon deposits build. But EVs aren't
allowed to depreciate! We want top dollar when we
sell them b/c the parts don't wear in the same manner
as ICE vehicles. Seems to me that we have to factor
in depreciation as well despite less wear & tear.
Other unknown variables:
Need a stated value policy. Mine is an extra $20/mo.
over regular policy (Allstate). I ignore the
difference, but would be paid in droves in an accident
over ICE cost.
Increased brake wear?
Less time spent in repair shops. What price do you pt
on that?
peace,
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There is some detail or too many unknown variables
> that stifle me when
> I attempt to figure these out.
>
>
> My current situation is a 2001 Ranger with a
> 4cyl/5spd. Commute for
> school is 50 miles round trip unfortunately. Truck
> averages 20 mpg...
>
> Fuel might be $5/gal or more(or no fuel at all..)
> with this Houston hurricane.
>
> At what fuel price point do I actually save money by
> having this
> vehicle be electric? How long does it take to pay
> off the conversion
> cost in fuel savings? How much will it cost to
> recharge it 5+ days a
> week?
>
> Potential conversion items:
>
> Zilla, PFC charger, a 9" motor(or some other size if
> that would be
> better) from Jim Husted that costs less then an ADC,
> any batteries and
> amount. Could put them under the bed or in the bed
> or both.
>
> 25 miles there, and 25 back, can't charge there.
> Nearly all highway.
> 60, 65, an 70 mph limits.
>
> I will do it if the figures show a savings over
> time. Will this be cost worthy?
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
> The cost of electricity to recharge probably won't be a major factor.
The situation with that is my Dad thinks about the air conditioner on
the side of our house and how it runs up the electricity bill in the
summer and the charger slugging away for 6 or 8 hours recharging a
144+ volt pack..
How can I convince him that it's different?
Current recharge prices:
http://www.ci.edmond.ok.us/Electric/elec_rates.html
> That raises another question - do you really need a truck to carry you to
> work and back?
The situation with that is: I already have the truck. Also, it snows
here sometimes and it's like bumper cars out there when it does.
Also, it's handy having the truck bed to haul something big and bulky
every once and a while(lawn mower, furniture, helping someone move,
hauling brush, etc.)
> If you're concerned about payback period, why not convert a
> small, light, aerodynamic car?
I'm kinda partial to this truck right now.. :) I might do a high
performance small car in the future after I do my other car..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure sounds similar. Next time I have the controller cover off I will send
you a jpg and we can compare. Regards, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Chloride Controller Info needed for G-van
Sure will David - If I get any circuit info I will pass it along - who
knows
it might be the same. Certainly the layout is similar - back axle turned
over, simple reduction gearbox, motor mounted at the rear etc etc, Would
be
interesting to see your controller board ( I have attached picture of
Griffon's)
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: Chloride Controller Info needed for G-van
John,
I agree, it very well could be a similar or the same drive train, I just
don't have any experience with the Griffons. Sorry. I am hoping to find a
schematic, tech manual, something on the Chloride controllers in the
Conceptor G-vans. Or even better would be the guy or guys that might have
designed / worked on them and knows something about them. I really would
like to bump the voltage up to 240 but I want to do it safely. Got the
room
for the extra batts and I could sure use the extra range. Keep in touch
and
let me know how you get along. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: Chloride Controller Info needed for G-van
> Okay Dave - I thought when you said you had a Chloride Controller it
> may
> have been the same development that Chloride did in the UK with GM.
These
> were also 216v 60HP with PWM controllers. Mine also has the onboard
heater
> and fuel tank which I have a mind to use for an onboard range extender
> charger.
>
>
> The Griffon were built mid 80's and I would be surprised if there were
not
> a
> load of similarities if Chloride were involved - I cant see them
> re-inventing the control system as it was pretty good.
>
> Regards
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Chloride Controller Info needed for G-van
>
>
>> Sorry John, but I really don't believe they are similar. What I do
>> know
>> is
>> that the Griffon is based on a different vehicle platform that was
>> sourced
>> from the UK and other than that I have no idea of what the Griffons
>> run
> for
>> components. The Conceptor G-vans are based on a Chevrolet 1 ton van
> chassis
>> and they have a 60 Hp cont Nelco trolley motor with a Chloride
controller
>> and (and least on mine) a rather sophisticated Martin Marietta onboard
>> charger that has an RS-232 port and monitors the voltage and temp of
each
>> individual battery. Nothing new I know for 2005 but these were built
>> in
> `91.
>> I also have the outdoor Chloride Electronetworks offboard charger and
one
> of
>> my vans has an Avcon inlet. The other one has the Hubble EV charging
>> connector. One of the vans (cargo version) came with 36 Delphi 12Vs
>> and
> the
>> other (pass version) with 36 Optima YT prototype batteries. 216 V
system.
>> And both vans have a fuel fired heater (at least for now). I am
planning
> to
>> remove the fuel heaters and install an electric heater. I have a few
more
>> upgrades planned but right now I am concentrating on getting them back
on
>> the road with some new batteries. Hope to be driving them before they
>> qualify for antique plates.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 11:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: Chloride Controller Info needed for G-van
>>
>>
>> > David is the "G" van the Griffon - imported from the UK ?
>> >
>> > If so I have one of these too - perhaps we can share knowledge,
>> > although
>> > mine is a recent acquisition !.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 9:42 PM
>> > Subject: Chloride Controller Info needed for G-van
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi all,
>> >> Anyone out there have any information on the Chloride motor
>> >> controllers
>> > that
>> >> were OEM installed in the Conceptor G-Vans? Right now I really need
to
>> > know
>> >> the upper voltage limit these can safely handle (to see if I can
>> >> run
4
>> > more
>> >> batteries) and of course any thing else I can find as far as
> schematics,
>> >> trouble shooting diagrams, service manuals etc would find a willing
> home
>> >> with me. Glad to pay a fair price for anything that might be
>> >> available.
>> > BTW,
>> >> I have long ago tried to query Chloride for info on these, never
>> >> got
>> >> an
>> >> answer. Anyone got Chloride connections that could help? I imagine
>> > Chloride
>> >> is deathly afraid of creating a technical support liability, not
> looking
>> > to
>> >> hassle them for freebies. I am just trying to get a couple of these
> fine
>> > and
>> >> useful EVs back into service and to help support fellow G-van
>> >> owners
>> > around
>> >> the country that are doing likewise. These are way cool rides.
>> >>
>> >> David Chapman
>> >> Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
>> >> http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> >> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date:
>> >> 16/09/2005
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/106 - Release Date:
>> 19/09/2005
>>
>
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/107 - Release Date:
20/09/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Setup in the Saturn is as follows:
12 Trojan 30XHS flooded batteries
PFC30 charger.
Trojan says to charge to 14.6 volts per battery, so 12X14.6 is 175.2 volts. I
have the timer set to 3 at the moment. It brought the pack up to 175.2 volts
and the timer light started flashing. It was slowly dropping in current near
the end, but shut off at about 8 amps still flowing in to the pack. I should
have more time on the timer until it trickles down to about an amp right?
Thanks
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
> If you try to roll in the cost of the conversion vs. a
> gas car that is paid off, that isn't a fair comparison.
It might not be fair. But this is the situation. This is a vehicle
that is paid for. Could drive it for the next year as is or convert
it to electric if it would save me money and the conversion costs
would be paid off through the savings of not buying fuel. There is no
getting around it.
> Increased brake wear?
Lifetime warranty on pads, rotors, etc at AutoZone. Front pads are a
one time $19, rotors are $63 should I need them...
> Less time spent in repair shops.
I do *all* my own work. I hate taking vehicles in to get tires. I
have before removed the wheels and just brought in the wheels/tires in
another vehicle and had them swap the tires. That way they didn't
have to drive my car, mangle the underside on their lift, and over
torque my lug nuts with their impact gun set to 600ft/lbs... I should
take a pic of one of my wheels of a bar code sticker sticking out from
between the edge of the wheel and the tire bead...
I'd order my tires online and mount and balance my own tires if the
two machines weren't $1,000 each... :(
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45656
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47211
> What price do you put on that?
It's my hobby so my labor is free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ryan,
There is so many variables between all type of EV's, the weight, distance,
speed, depth of discharge, cost of batteries.
So here's is the data on my EV for the last 10 years.
In 1995, the cost of gasoline was a average of $1.50 a gallon, it is now $2.75
a gallon. The average cost for 10 years is $2.12 a gallon.
In 1995, the cost of electricity is $0.05 cents a KW and today is $0.07 cents a
KW. The average cost for 10 years is $0.06 cents a KW.
In 1995, my batteries which was Excides 6 volt 220 AH which cost $45.00 each.
$1350.00 for 30 of them.
Distill water cost $0.50 a gallon a month. or $60.00 for 10 years.
I drive my EV 50 miles a week which discharges down to 60%. Charge the
batteries to 85% in 60 minutes that start out at 50 amps and taper downs to 0
amps or for a average of 25 amps.
Watt hours = 25 amps x 240 volts = 6000 watts or 6KW
6Kw x .06 = $0.36 to fill up to run 50 miles.
If gasoline is 36 cents a gallon, than that would 50 mpg.
The average gasoline cost for the last ten years is $2.12 a gallon, therefore:
$2.12 / $0.36 = 5.88
5.88 x 50 = 294.4 mpg equivalent
Now lets add the cost of the batteries:
Batteries and distill water cost $1410.00 for ten years.
$1410.00 / 520 weeks = $2.71 a week.
$2.71 battery cost + $0.36 = $3.07
$2.12 average gas cost /$3.07 = 0.69
0.69 x 50 miles = 34.5 mpg
My new set of batteries which are T-145's cost $2400.00.
Distill water at $0.75 a gallon per month = $90.00
Ten years = $2400.00+ $90.00 = $2490.00 for batteries.
Per 50 miles per week = $2490.00/520 = $4.78
If electricity is $0.10 per KW by than, therefore:
Average cost of electricity = ($0.06 + $0.10)/2 = $0.08
Charging cost per 50 miles = $0.08 x 6kw = $0.48
Total cost for 50 miles = $4.78 + $0.48= $5.26
If gasoline is at a average of $5.26 per gallon in 10 years then that would be
50 miles per gallon.
Another EV system, could be completely different. A EV that weighs 1/3 of my
does, and does not have A/C, Power steering, Power brakes, three electric
heating systems, 7kw inverter system, sound system and array of instrument
systems, double insulation battery enclosures and water tight cast aluminum
equipment enclosures which takes enough energy to run a EV on its own, would
come out with different results.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Stotts<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:05 PM
Subject: Need help with conceptual math
There is some detail or too many unknown variables that stifle me when
I attempt to figure these out.
My current situation is a 2001 Ranger with a 4cyl/5spd. Commute for
school is 50 miles round trip unfortunately. Truck averages 20 mpg...
Fuel might be $5/gal or more(or no fuel at all..) with this Houston hurricane.
At what fuel price point do I actually save money by having this
vehicle be electric? How long does it take to pay off the conversion
cost in fuel savings? How much will it cost to recharge it 5+ days a
week?
Potential conversion items:
Zilla, PFC charger, a 9" motor(or some other size if that would be
better) from Jim Husted that costs less then an ADC, any batteries and
amount. Could put them under the bed or in the bed or both.
25 miles there, and 25 back, can't charge there. Nearly all highway.
60, 65, an 70 mph limits.
I will do it if the figures show a savings over time. Will this be cost
worthy?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Keith, I will double check the exact size I need and hit them up for
an order. Awesome find, and I only have to buy 12" too. Thanks again.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:15 AM
Subject: OT: Aluminum Pipe
Someone on the list was looking for 4" schedule 5 aluminum pipe. I found
some today, hopefully they see this message.
<http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7545967784>
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim and Jerry,
I, or rather NEDRA, got an interesting email from James Worden
yesterday about the Sunrise body available on ebay. Apparently James is
a big NEDRA fan. James Worden was running Solectria in its hay day and
is now CEO of Solectria Renewables. He made several range breaking
records with the Sunrise. Alot of us were hoping the car would make it
into production.
Anyway, here is what he says about the body:
"Just to let asociation members know, there is a lightweight, all
Composite Sunrise Electric Vehicle Body for sale on Ebay. This is the
body that was used for the 380 mile record range run and the Boston -
NYC highway speed run without charging. It would make a really
exciting build project for a group of EV'ers, an EV club or just an
experienced car builder. It would make an awesome base for a drag car
because of its very low weight and great aerodynamics"
So as James mentions, this is the "actual body from the car" not the
mold. But you could get the body and make a mold from it I suppose.
Jerry would know more about that though.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:06:24 PM US/Eastern
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Solectria-Sunrise Body on eBay
jerry dycus wrote:
> It may be the mold they made the production molds from as that is how
> it should be done, putting together a structural body/chassis so when
> the tooling is done, everything fits.
Um, so is the object on eBay an actual body that could be used to build
into a complete car, or is it "just" the mold? Or one builds it into a
complete car and then takes apart again to use as a mold?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Every time I figure it out, a used 3 cylinder Geo Metro for $3000 at 50mpg
does a whole lot better than the EV. 4 Seater, zippy, no problems with
range. I have an EV because I am tired of breathing all that crap that
comes out the tail pipe, and more than happy to pay for the clean air. I am
also happy not to be at the mercy of bush and the oil controllers.
Money is only one aspect of EVs. Quality of life is another.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: September 21, 2005 7:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Need help with conceptual math
There is some detail or too many unknown variables that stifle me when I
attempt to figure these out.
My current situation is a 2001 Ranger with a 4cyl/5spd. Commute for school
is 50 miles round trip unfortunately. Truck averages 20 mpg...
Fuel might be $5/gal or more(or no fuel at all..) with this Houston
hurricane.
At what fuel price point do I actually save money by having this vehicle be
electric? How long does it take to pay off the conversion cost in fuel
savings? How much will it cost to recharge it 5+ days a week?
Potential conversion items:
Zilla, PFC charger, a 9" motor(or some other size if that would be
better) from Jim Husted that costs less then an ADC, any batteries and
amount. Could put them under the bed or in the bed or both.
25 miles there, and 25 back, can't charge there. Nearly all highway.
60, 65, an 70 mph limits.
I will do it if the figures show a savings over time. Will this be cost
worthy?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It could be caused by carbon dust and oils. You would need to remove the
armature and clean it. It could be degraded insulation that may need a rewind
but it might also be something your local shop could dip and turn. More info
needed. Not sure what you mean here? can pass 30+ amps (lift motor).
Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Quick question: I just traced down a
ground fault in my E20 to the
armature connections on the motor (3-4hp shunt wound). I feel smart, but
this is a fault that
Can this simply be accumulated dust from the brushes for the past 30
years? The brush cap is sealed (no vents to outside); maybe it's full o
crud.
Does this make sense?
Chris
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee
Can You Help Me Get Off This List? [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Im Looking For An EV Designer To Plan And Design 3-7
Conversions That I Can Mass Convery On 2-5 Year Old Cars For
High End EV Market.
Mike Longley
435-635-4460
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:44 PM
Subject: Am I charging correctly?
> Setup in the Saturn is as follows:
> 12 Trojan 30XHS flooded batteries
> PFC30 charger.
>
> Trojan says to charge to 14.6 volts per battery, so 12X14.6 is 175.2
volts. I have the timer set to 3 at the moment. It brought the pack up to
175.2 volts and the timer light started flashing. It was slowly dropping in
current near the end, but shut off at about 8 amps still flowing in to the
pack. I should have more time on the timer until it trickles down to about
an amp right?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Red Insight #559
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very Cool... The L/D is a little low. Going from 48 to 30 would take
some getting use to, but saving $30.00 a tow to 2000 feet would add up.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:35 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Hybrid airplane. 1.5 hours prue electric flight time.
>
> http://www.airenergy.de/html/index_english.html
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Noel there is another one (also in Germany) that is built just
to get off the ground and avoid the tow. I think he only has
10-15 mins of duration but its a lot less battery etc to haul
around when your up and they are discharged.
Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Noel P. Luneau
> Sent: September 21, 2005 10:40 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Hybrid airplane. 1.5 hours prue electric flight time.
>
>
> Very Cool... The L/D is a little low. Going from 48 to 30 would take
> some getting use to, but saving $30.00 a tow to 2000 feet would add up.
>
> Noel
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:35 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Hybrid airplane. 1.5 hours prue electric flight time.
> >
> > http://www.airenergy.de/html/index_english.html
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > Reedmaker
> > Book 4/5 doubler
> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > 415-821-3519
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi
I am considering batteries for my electric dirt bike. System voltage 24 or
36 V. I am looking for something around 20 Ah capacity. I was thinking of
B&B EVP20 or some such. Does anyone have experience with these? Are there
any other batteries that I should be considering? Also can someone recommend
a good charger?
Any tips or advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
BR Deshpande.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget to factor in the cost of whatever electricity you use
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I live in the heavens. I reside on mountain tops. I am at constant vigil
over thee. I monitor thy righteous ways. Thy levels art mine to command.
When thou art in trouble, I will help thee through distorted times. When
thou art low, the touch of my hand shall raise thy spirit to the proper
level. When thou are too high, I shall terminate thee with a swift stroke of
my sword. When thy wires are frayed and broken, my angels shall use solder
and iron to heal thee. Thou art the circuit, I am the chosen one, I am the
TECH CONTROLLER!"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles
in my EV
Adams, Lynn wrote:
Type 8V-GC 8V-GCHC T875 T890
Year 2002 2003 2004 2005
miles 12200 14200 16203 5000 so far
cost 940 1098 1168 1494
A non EV'r(my Dad for example) would look at that and say "well look
at that battery replacement cost". That's nothing compared to the
alternative which is fuel cost:
2001 Ford Ranger 4cyl/5spd, 20 mpg:
Costs me $30 a week to fill it up at $2.xx/gal
52 weeks in a year = $1,560
Hmmm....
Electric wins? It looks like it too me.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops. Sorry, Premature Reply Syndrome
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"I live in the heavens. I reside on mountain tops. I am at constant vigil
over thee. I monitor thy righteous ways. Thy levels art mine to command.
When thou art in trouble, I will help thee through distorted times. When
thou art low, the touch of my hand shall raise thy spirit to the proper
level. When thou are too high, I shall terminate thee with a swift stroke of
my sword. When thy wires are frayed and broken, my angels shall use solder
and iron to heal thee. Thou art the circuit, I am the chosen one, I am the
TECH CONTROLLER!"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles
in my EV
Don't forget to factor in the cost of whatever electricity you use
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000
miles in my EV
Adams, Lynn wrote:
Type 8V-GC 8V-GCHC T875 T890
Year 2002 2003 2004 2005
miles 12200 14200 16203 5000 so far
cost 940 1098 1168 1494
A non EV'r(my Dad for example) would look at that and say "well look
at that battery replacement cost". That's nothing compared to the
alternative which is fuel cost:
2001 Ford Ranger 4cyl/5spd, 20 mpg:
Costs me $30 a week to fill it up at $2.xx/gal
52 weeks in a year = $1,560
Hmmm....
Electric wins? It looks like it too me.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rough numbers...
50 miles at 20 MPG needs about 2000# of batteries (2.5 gallons of gas times
800# of batteries to store equivalent energy of 1 gallon of gasoline.)
If the commute takes less than one hour, then AGMs are preferred. If the
commute is more than one hour, flooded are preferred. I don't know your
commute so I can't judge this.
2000 # of 6 volt Concorde AGMs would require 30 batteries at $200 each for a
total of $6000.
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/battery2.htm#CONCORDE
2000 # of 6 volt T105 flooded would require 30 batteries at $88 each for a
total of $2640.
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/battery2.htm#TROJAN%20T-105%20BATTERIES
You can probably beat these prices.
The AGMs will take you further at high speeds and the flooded will take you
further at lower speeds. There is some debate about the time where this
crossover occurs.
The big question in my mind is the cost and amortization period on the
batteries.
If you get 400 W*h/mi. then the 50 mile commute will take 20 watt hours. If
the charging process is 80% efficient, you will need 25 kWh out of the wall.
At $0.10 this will cost you $2.50 daily.
I did not find the discharge data on these batteries, therefore I do not
know if 30 batteries will store 20 kWh. You will need to verify this for
your choice of battery.
If fuel goes to $5 a gallon, the fuel will cost $12.50 daily. The electric
will save you $10 a day on fuel.
If you spend $2k on a controller, $2k on a charger, $2k on a motor and $3k
on batteries and $1k on instrumentation (and wiring), and throw in the labor
for free, the conversion will cost $10k.
Spending $10k to save $10 a day on fuel will pay off the conversion in 1000
days (about 3 years.) This coincides with the time you will need to replace
the batteries. Your mileage will vary.
The good news is that the second battery pack costs only $3k and saving $10
a day on fuel will pay the batteries off in less than a year. If the
batteries last three years, the second two years are free.
In my example, the payoff period is four years.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:05 PM
Subject: Need help with conceptual math
> There is some detail or too many unknown variables that stifle me when
> I attempt to figure these out.
>
>
> My current situation is a 2001 Ranger with a 4cyl/5spd. Commute for
> school is 50 miles round trip unfortunately. Truck averages 20 mpg...
>
> Fuel might be $5/gal or more(or no fuel at all..) with this Houston
hurricane.
>
> At what fuel price point do I actually save money by having this
> vehicle be electric? How long does it take to pay off the conversion
> cost in fuel savings? How much will it cost to recharge it 5+ days a
> week?
>
> Potential conversion items:
>
> Zilla, PFC charger, a 9" motor(or some other size if that would be
> better) from Jim Husted that costs less then an ADC, any batteries and
> amount. Could put them under the bed or in the bed or both.
>
> 25 miles there, and 25 back, can't charge there. Nearly all highway.
> 60, 65, an 70 mph limits.
>
> I will do it if the figures show a savings over time. Will this be cost
worthy?
>
--- End Message ---
