EV Digest 4748
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Uh oh did I kill it?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Discovery Channel Video Was:NEDRA... also tzero/AC Propulsion
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Shunt motor armature gone to ground
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System to be Debuted at SVEAA Stanford Rally
September 24th 2005
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7)
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_AIR_Lab's_Early_Warning_System_to_be_Debuted_at_SVEAA_Stanford_Rally_September_24th_2005?=
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Need help with conceptual math
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Heatsink and silicone
by "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Vicor PFC Mini as charger
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Heatsink and silicone
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Heatsink and silicone
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Heatsink and silicone
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System to be Debuted at SVEAA Stanford Rally
September 24th 2005
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Variac voltage no load vs. load.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System to be Debuted at SVEAA Stanford
Rally September 24th 2005
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Discovery Channel Video of NEDRA Power of DC Race Available for
Download
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Charging wires
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Battery shunt
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Need help with conceptual math
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> The guys at Wal-Mart had a meter that was supposed to measure Cold
> Cranking Amps and they said it passed.
If you want a second opinion on it, take it to your local AutoZone and
have them hook it up to their machine. I think they run it through
more then one test.
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?UseCase=ST001&UserAction=displayStoreLocator
http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/in_our_stores/free_testing.jsp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
...My new set of batteries which are T-145's cost $2400.00.
Distill water at $0.75 a gallon per month = $90.00
Ten years = $2400.00+ $90.00 = $2490.00 for batteries.
Per 50 miles per week = $2490.00/520 = $4.78
^^^^^^^^
If electricity is $0.10 per KW by than, therefore...
<snip>
Some people *walk* more than 50 miles a week!
He needs to commute 50 miles *per day*, about 13K mi a year, plus around-town
driving, and at freeway speeds - the pack would be lucky to last 2 years, even
if well-tended. It would be better to keep the ICE pickup for truck duties, and
convert something much smaller for commuting; if it has to be the truck, you'd
need about 1 ton of floodeds (~30), and even then, you'd have to keep below 65
mph to make the round trip without daily drops below 80%DOD.
Even if the electricity for the EV was more than the house's summer AC, we don't
pay for our ICEs' gasoline use by the month (well, maybe if you drove only 200
miles a month). If you convert a car to electric ONLY to save money, in the
end, you probably won't - you do it for the environment, for a silent drive,
because a cartoon engineer like Dilbert does it, or just because you can (p.s.
- I can't, all my EVs have been "pre-existing")!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Solar sailer video on the same page is an Alan Cocconi project too
(the tzero and AC Propulsion get brief mentions)
lOck
--- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> The Discovery Channel video of the NEDRA Power of DC Race held this
> past June is available for download
>
> http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=9/19/2005
>
> It's the one at the top of the page "Electrified Dragster"
>
> If you have WIndows Media 9 you can see it. It's about six minutes.
>
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster and Power of DC racing coordinator
> http://www.nedra.com
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
It could be caused by carbon dust and oils.
> You would need to remove the armature and clean it.
> It could be degraded insulation that may need a rewind
but it might also be something your local shop could
dip and turn. More info needed.
Not sure what you mean here? can pass 30+ amps (lift motor).
I'll be dropping the motor this weekend. What I meant by the 30+ amps is
that via the ground fault I could run the lift motor. So it's a bit more
than just a small tracing.
Hopefully the armature is not bad. I'd hate to rewind it, but more to
the point this will cost about as much as a new ICE motor. I like to
rant on about how electric motors never need maintenance; this would be
the third motor (the other two were deck motors) that had armature
windings go to ground.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
. There will
always be those who prefer not to build things themselves, or place
sufficient value on their time that it makes sense to buy a commercial
solution such as yours, and this just increases the number of more
reliable EVs out there.
Or need somthing that dons't look like a one of a kind home built science
project . I could see selling these to people who are having me build them
ev's . form the site it looked very finnished , hope to hear more details
about it , .
would be nice if we could give a little charge to that weakest battery ...
steve clunn
Fact is that thre is always going to be some competition, and in this
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:23 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: September 21, 2005 8:24:05 PM PDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
The situation with that is my Dad thinks about the air conditioner on
the side of our house and how it runs up the electricity bill in the
summer and the charger slugging away for 6 or 8 hours recharging a
144+ volt pack..
Get an amp counter and hook it up between the wall and your charger.
Keep
mileage readings each month when the electric bill arrives and pay
him for
whatever you use. Guaranteed it'll be cheaper than gas, and it
eliminates
any objections he might have.
The situation with that is: I already have the truck. Also, it snows
here sometimes and it's like bumper cars out there when it does.
Also, it's handy having the truck bed to haul something big and bulky
every once and a while(lawn mower, furniture, helping someone move,
hauling brush, etc.)
You also have more leeway when laying out batteries. For instance, you
can bolt them into the truck bed floor and put a false floor above them,
or you can built and weld/bolt battery boxes into the frame without
worrying about weakening a unibody car. You also have low cost
suspension alternatives like airbags, instead of having custom coil
springs wound like you probably would with a car.
I'm kinda partial to this truck right now.. :) I might do a high
performance small car in the future after I do my other car..
I think you'll do all right. Next time you need tires, consider some
hard high-pressure commercial truck tires to increase range even
farther.
Tim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
keep cool, i made no intentional offense.
you asked about opinions on this list so i just give you mine, no offense on
your work either.
After looking at your new page, i said there is cheap though different
solutions to make similar goal, that's all.
It's my 1miliwatt opinion which value is limited to level you decide, no
problem, i wish you and your product good future and think you will have
success, you target an existing demand market.
I juste want to inform you target here an hobyiest market and should take that
into account before selling your product in the 60$ per node + 200$ dashboard
as you announce on your webpages.
Find industrial way to have them made at low cost even if you need to make them
in asia or you won't sell big numbers.
Handmade products can't be mass producted and so be affordable.
Lot's of people here need affordable battery/monitor design otherwise a big
part of them will continue to be battery killers or using time consumming
homemade circuits.
friendly
Philippe from france
near Saft batteries and lemco motors but still too far from Rich, Otmar,
alltrax, ADC motors products, EV-drag racing, Hi john and Jim :^) including
all yours EV events...i'm still waiting for startrek teleportation technologie.
---------- Initial Header -----------
>From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To : [email protected]
Cc :
Date : Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:00:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject : Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System to be Debuted at SVEAA Stanford
Rally September 24th 2005
Interesting... That is your choice. And, it costs $5
in parts alone. And, why don't you sell it?
May be it is because you have to recoop the
design/testing/manufacturing costs? How about
warranty/safety/support costs? Inventory? Repair?
Risk cost? Liability? etc... And, we still have to
eat to survive?
And, you wonder why almost no company is willing to
sell products in this field? I am sorry to be this
frank with you, but if no company could money, there
won't be an industry.
You are not helping the situation. I am starting to
think that EV's are doomed from the beginning. And,
GM, Ford, and Toyota are right. They are right, no
one wants or is willing to pay for EV's.
Your comments are extremely irresponsible. And,
seeing it on this group makes it even more sad.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> i prefer zener + led and TL431+mosfet for
> monitor/shunt regulator which are
> KISS and less thant 5$ per battery...
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du
> volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:56 PM
> Subject: News: AIR Lab's Early Warning System to be
> Debuted at SVEAA
> Stanford Rally September 24th 2005
>
>
> > Please visit airlabcorp.com for news details.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Ed Ang
> > AIR Lab Corp.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------ ALICE HAUT DEBIT A 29,95 EUR/MOIS ------------
ALICEBOX, l'offre Internet tout en 1 : ADSL, téléphonie, modem Wi-Fi et en
exclusivité
la hotline gratuite 24h/24 ! Soumis à conditions. Pour en profiter cliquez ici
http://abonnement.aliceadsl.fr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
I agree with you already having the truck. Remember though that having an
EV truck will be different. You will not be able to do all the things you
used to with the gas version. Helping someone move would be one of them. I
can see you still having the bed useable IF you put your pack between the
framerails underneath and in the engine compartment. You will have to
decide on that. Once you convert to an EV there has to be serious thought
as to HOW you are going to use the vehicle. A truck I think is the easiest
to convert because it already has the load carrying capability built in and
you can get creative on where you put your batteries. The only real
drawback is trucks are about as aerodynamic as a brick so they aren't very
efficient. As for charging, you could charge the vehicle during the night
which is the best time electricity rate wise. Air conditioners cost more
because they are on during PEAK times when the electricity costs more. Even
with that in mind an EV is still cheaper over the long run than a gas car.
A lot of the conceptual examples given so far haven't quantified oil
changes, tune ups, belts, hoses, smog checks and the other things that come
along with a gas car.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
Phil Marino wrote:
> The cost of electricity to recharge probably won't be a major factor.
The situation with that is my Dad thinks about the air conditioner on
the side of our house and how it runs up the electricity bill in the
summer and the charger slugging away for 6 or 8 hours recharging a
144+ volt pack..
How can I convince him that it's different?
Current recharge prices:
http://www.ci.edmond.ok.us/Electric/elec_rates.html
> That raises another question - do you really need a truck to carry you to
> work and back?
The situation with that is: I already have the truck. Also, it snows
here sometimes and it's like bumper cars out there when it does.
Also, it's handy having the truck bed to haul something big and bulky
every once and a while(lawn mower, furniture, helping someone move,
hauling brush, etc.)
> If you're concerned about payback period, why not convert a
> small, light, aerodynamic car?
I'm kinda partial to this truck right now.. :) I might do a high
performance small car in the future after I do my other car..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My daily travel is a lot of 1/2 mile to 1 mile runs, with stops of 30 to 60
minutes. My maximum average speed is 15 mph with one run that will get way up
to 30 mph. All my runs are in residential areas. Many times, I can drive right
inside a building and get a free charge doing a demo.
Driving the ICE gets a average of 5 to 10 MPG because of the many stops and the
engine never gets warm up. Yes, if I drove it the ICE at 60 mph for a very
long distance of over 100 miles, it will do 25 to 30 MPG.
I had to replace the ICE engine two times driving it this slow speed and stops.
The last set of batteries, lasted well over 8 years and had only 4 battery
replacements out of 30 batteries in 10 years. Many of them were in balance of
0.01 to 0.04 volt each.
Yes, they will not have the range after 4 years if I had to drive them at 60
mph, but at 15 mph average, I was able to squeeze every bit of energy out of
them. Drove them until I could no longer go 1/2 mile.
When I order a new set of batteries, I specific that they will be a balance
set, and a manufacture date no less than 30 days. This set came only 15 days
old and the voltage of each battery was standing at 6.33 volts while two of
them was at 6.34 volts.
These batteries are using a Hydrocell Company approved method of ventilation
and absorbing type of material, that keeps these batteries very clean. Lose
very little fluid and may only have to water them every 3 or 4 months.
The EV is ideal for many stops and short range, as compare to a ICE. Ask the
Boeing Company of whom I worked for, and the U.S. Airforce why many of there
RAMP vehicles are electric?
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
<snip>
...My new set of batteries which are T-145's cost $2400.00.
Distill water at $0.75 a gallon per month = $90.00
Ten years = $2400.00+ $90.00 = $2490.00 for batteries.
Per 50 miles per week = $2490.00/520 = $4.78
^^^^^^^^
If electricity is $0.10 per KW by than, therefore...
<snip>
Some people *walk* more than 50 miles a week!
He needs to commute 50 miles *per day*, about 13K mi a year, plus around-town
driving, and at freeway speeds - the pack would be lucky to last 2 years, even
if well-tended. It would be better to keep the ICE pickup for truck duties,
and
convert something much smaller for commuting; if it has to be the truck, you'd
need about 1 ton of floodeds (~30), and even then, you'd have to keep below 65
mph to make the round trip without daily drops below 80%DOD.
Even if the electricity for the EV was more than the house's summer AC, we
don't
pay for our ICEs' gasoline use by the month (well, maybe if you drove only 200
miles a month). If you convert a car to electric ONLY to save money, in the
end, you probably won't - you do it for the environment, for a silent drive,
because a cartoon engineer like Dilbert does it, or just because you can (p.s.
- I can't, all my EVs have been "pre-existing")!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I made a heatsink for my dc/dc converter out of some aluminum railing.
Because the heatsink is not flush all the way across I want to fill in the
low spot with some silicone. I have seen other components where the silicone
is ¼ inch think.
Is what I have seen really silicone or is it something else. If it is
silicone what type e.g. GE silicone II or something completely different? If
it is not silicone where do I get it band names ect ect
Any thoughts would be helpful.
Joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Vicor-labeled PFC Mini that takes 115/230v AC and outputs 300v
DC (10 amps).
I intend to use it as an overnight charger for my 288v gel pack (48 Deka
8G31DT's paralleled pairs, providing 195.2 AH at C/20)
Does anyone have info/experience on/with Vicor, or an URL to their site
(I need docs)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 9/22/05 6:37:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Joe,
Don't use Silicone sealer it is not designed to transfer heat. You can get
Heatsink compound at Radio Shack & almost any Electronics supply store.
Heatsink compound Commonly called Heatsink Grease is designed to fill small
imperfections between the heatsink & active component and aid in heat transfer.
Heatsink compound will do nothing for a large gap, you must have a smooth flat
surface for proper heat transfer. If the surface is uneven you will only get
heat
transfer where there is metal to metal contact. If the surface is not too far
out of whack you can draw file the surface and clean it up.
Pat
I made a heatsink for my dc/dc converter out of some aluminum railing.
Because the heatsink is not flush all the way across I want to fill in the
low spot with some silicone. I have seen other components where the silicone
is ¼ inch think.
Is what I have seen really silicone or is it something else. If it is
silicone what type e.g. GE silicone II or something completely different? If
it is not silicone where do I get it band names ect ect…
Any thoughts would be helpful.
Joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland - sounds like you have got a good match at the start. How do you
charge and maintain balance across all the batteries ?. Do you have some
sort of series pass regulators that detect when one battery is full and
passes the current to the next battery in the string.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
> My daily travel is a lot of 1/2 mile to 1 mile runs, with stops of 30 to
60 minutes. My maximum average speed is 15 mph with one run that will get
way up to 30 mph. All my runs are in residential areas. Many times, I can
drive right inside a building and get a free charge doing a demo.
>
> Driving the ICE gets a average of 5 to 10 MPG because of the many stops
and the engine never gets warm up. Yes, if I drove it the ICE at 60 mph for
a very long distance of over 100 miles, it will do 25 to 30 MPG.
>
> I had to replace the ICE engine two times driving it this slow speed and
stops.
>
> The last set of batteries, lasted well over 8 years and had only 4 battery
replacements out of 30 batteries in 10 years. Many of them were in balance
of 0.01 to 0.04 volt each.
>
> Yes, they will not have the range after 4 years if I had to drive them at
60 mph, but at 15 mph average, I was able to squeeze every bit of energy out
of them. Drove them until I could no longer go 1/2 mile.
>
> When I order a new set of batteries, I specific that they will be a
balance set, and a manufacture date no less than 30 days. This set came
only 15 days old and the voltage of each battery was standing at 6.33 volts
while two of them was at 6.34 volts.
>
> These batteries are using a Hydrocell Company approved method of
ventilation and absorbing type of material, that keeps these batteries very
clean. Lose very little fluid and may only have to water them every 3 or 4
months.
>
> The EV is ideal for many stops and short range, as compare to a ICE. Ask
the Boeing Company of whom I worked for, and the U.S. Airforce why many of
there RAMP vehicles are electric?
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
>
>
> <snip>
>
> ...My new set of batteries which are T-145's cost $2400.00.
> Distill water at $0.75 a gallon per month = $90.00
> Ten years = $2400.00+ $90.00 = $2490.00 for batteries.
> Per 50 miles per week = $2490.00/520 = $4.78
> ^^^^^^^^
> If electricity is $0.10 per KW by than, therefore...
>
> <snip>
>
> Some people *walk* more than 50 miles a week!
>
> He needs to commute 50 miles *per day*, about 13K mi a year, plus
around-town
> driving, and at freeway speeds - the pack would be lucky to last 2
years, even
> if well-tended. It would be better to keep the ICE pickup for truck
duties, and
> convert something much smaller for commuting; if it has to be the truck,
you'd
> need about 1 ton of floodeds (~30), and even then, you'd have to keep
below 65
> mph to make the round trip without daily drops below 80%DOD.
>
> Even if the electricity for the EV was more than the house's summer AC,
we don't
> pay for our ICEs' gasoline use by the month (well, maybe if you drove
only 200
> miles a month). If you convert a car to electric ONLY to save money, in
the
> end, you probably won't - you do it for the environment, for a silent
drive,
> because a cartoon engineer like Dilbert does it, or just because you can
(p.s.
> - I can't, all my EVs have been "pre-existing")!
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.4/109 - Release Date: 21/09/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out ebays Heatsinks, most of them are for cpu's and such, but there are
some that are 8" x 9" or so.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:01 AM
Subject: Heatsink and silicone
>I made a heatsink for my dc/dc converter out of some aluminum railing.
> Because the heatsink is not flush all the way across I want to fill in the
> low spot with some silicone. I have seen other components where the silicone
> is ¼ inch think.
>
> Is what I have seen really silicone or is it something else. If it is
> silicone what type e.g. GE silicone II or something completely different? If
> it is not silicone where do I get it band names ect ect.
>
> Any thoughts would be helpful.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stuff I use is called Dow Cornings heatsink compound. Its not silicon like
silicon rubber its a white paste/creamy stuff.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "ohnojoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: Heatsink and silicone
> I made a heatsink for my dc/dc converter out of some aluminum railing.
> Because the heatsink is not flush all the way across I want to fill in the
> low spot with some silicone. I have seen other components where the
silicone
> is ¼ inch think.
>
> Is what I have seen really silicone or is it something else. If it is
> silicone what type e.g. GE silicone II or something completely different?
If
> it is not silicone where do I get it band names ect ect.
>
> Any thoughts would be helpful.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.4/109 - Release Date: 21/09/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:24:05 -0500, Ryan Stotts
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Phil Marino wrote:
>
>
>> The cost of electricity to recharge probably won't be a major factor.
>
>The situation with that is my Dad thinks about the air conditioner on
>the side of our house and how it runs up the electricity bill in the
>summer and the charger slugging away for 6 or 8 hours recharging a
>144+ volt pack..
>
>How can I convince him that it's different?
Buy a power meter and meter the power going to your car. Easy as
that.
Here are some photos of how I set up a meter for portable use.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/power%20meter/
Used meters are cheap, usually under $30. Even new, they're under
$100.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
zener is only for monitoring battery voltage not for regulation, picking
right value and low ppm/°C model result in good precision for individual 12V
monitoring task, resistor, zener and led in serie is all you need.
The TL431 is an ajustable shunt "precision" regulator which, with 30ppm/°C,
make his job perfectly.
the datasheet give all you need to start simple circuit.
i stop here this subject, my purpose was not at all starting an EE flame
war, just talking about my point of view.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System to be Debuted at SVEAA Stanford
Rally September 24th 2005
> Hi Edward and All,
>
> Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting... That is your choice. And, it costs $5
> in parts alone. And, why don't you sell it?
>
>
> The biggest problem with Phillipe's design is it, the zener, is
not temp, voltage, current stable thus not giving accurate enough regulation
to do the job.
>
> And yours does much more than his by a long shot and looks
interesting if priced right as it's as much a monitoring system than just a
regulator. It looks like a good system for AGM's.
>
> Now you know what Rich has been fighting all these yrs as he
switched to a more expensive product, profitable to sell.
>
>
> May be it is because you have to recoop the
> design/testing/manufacturing costs? How about
> warranty/safety/support costs? Inventory? Repair?
> Risk cost? Liability? etc... And, we still have to
> eat to survive?
>
>
> Not to mention sales, education costs which are rather high. I
had a nice windgen design Imstarted manufacturing that still beats the
present designs but education costs to sell it doomed it so never did that
type of product again and went back to building boats.
>
> Instead I chose the Freedom Ev that has a large market, profit
with no competition. It helps that it sells itself.
>
> HTH's,
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
> And, you wonder why almost no company is willing to
> sell products in this field? I am sorry to be this
> frank with you, but if no company could money, there
> won't be an industry.
>
> Ed Ang
> AIR Lab Corp.
>
> --- Philippe Borges
>
> wrote:
>
> > i prefer zener + led and TL431+mosfet for
> > monitor/shunt regulator which are
> > KISS and less thant 5$ per battery...
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Edward Ang"
> >
> >
> > > Please visit airlabcorp.com for news details.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Ed Ang
> > > AIR Lab Corp.
> > >
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! for Good
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So far on all combinations of all 5 output screws I get a high of around 200
vac. I'll see later if the range of movement is complete. The two 220vac
variacs are exactly synced. Both produce dc through the bridges. I haven't
put them together for added amps yet. trying to figure out why I'm not
getting maximum voltage. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Variac voltage no load vs. load.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I just put together a 240v variac charger. I got 160vdc out of my 120v
variac. I'm lucky with no load to get 190vdc on this 240v version. I
was
thinking I'd get 300vdc at least out of this thing. Is the no load a
problem? I tried all the taps. I have the highest possible voltage.
How did you wire it? If you put 240vac in, the variac should *easily*
produce 240 * 120% = 288vac. Rectifying this with a bridge yields
288vdc, whose peak is over 400 volts DC (what you'd get charging a
capacitor or battery).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Find industrial way to have them made at low cost even if you need to
make them in asia or you won't sell big numbers. Handmade products
can't be mass producted and so be affordable. Lot's of people here
need affordable battery/monitor design otherwise a big part of them
will continue to be battery killers or using time consumming homemade
circuits.
What I find philippe, no matter how ridiculously cheap you make
the product there is always someone who thinks that it still cost
too much for his pocket and demand lower price. Even if sold
for the cost of components alone, still too much.
IF I offer $5000 inverter for $500 today, most will bu it in a
heartbeat, but I'm *sure* someone will ask "Can you make it $250?".
Sorry, only Chinese manufacturing can fullfill this people.
They will sure make $5/node product as well for the hobbyists.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip,
This video was done just right!
Pull in the viewer (the right demographic) with the noise and smoke of
the ICE dragsters.
Then introduce the challengers (and they win!) It's Rocky, but on wheels.
The video has a good combination of music and pacing.
I liked the self-deprecating humor at the beginning ("lead-sled"), but
especially liked the trick of presenting the vehicle's best feature
(torque) as it's worst problem (broken axles). Classic job-interview
technique ;-)
All in all, great presentation of the sport to the layman. Ranks
right up there with the 1999 Wired "Suck Amps" article, which was a
eureka moment for me, and my introduction to EVs.
Richard Kelly
(fellow Escort driver)
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/474.html
On 9/21/05, Chip Gribben futurev-at-radix.net |vehicle/1.0-Allow|
<...> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> The Discovery Channel video of the NEDRA Power of DC Race held this
> past June is available for download
>
> http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=9/19/2005
>
> It's the one at the top of the page "Electrified Dragster"
>
> If you have WIndows Media 9 you can see it. It's about six minutes.
>
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster and Power of DC racing coordinator
> http://www.nedra.com
> http://www.powerofdc.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a meter place
http://www.hialeahmeter.com/siphwame.html
One meter does 120 or 240 vac and 100 amps.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
> Buy a power meter and meter the power going to your car. Easy as
> that.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: John Luck Home<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
Hi Roland - sounds like you have got a good match at the start. How do you
charge and maintain balance across all the batteries ?. Do you have some
sort of series pass regulators that detect when one battery is full and
passes the current to the next battery in the string.
John
No regulators at all. These batteries are still balance in with 0.01 volts of
each other in 26 batteries and 0.02 volts in 4 of them.
I am only discharging them down to 70 to 50 percent which are a 260 AH
battery and driving from 5 to 10 miles a day. So its not critical for me to
have them perfectly balance all the time.
I am charging the 180 volt pack to 220 volts and its taper down to about 0
with a PFC-50B charger once a week. Once a month, I charge to 225 volts which
is 7.5 volts per battery.
As they age they will become more unbalance. It is recommended by Trojan,
when they get to 5% unbalance which would be about 0.3 volt. Then I charge
that one with a smart charger that gives me a read out of percentage charge,
voltage and ampere.
When the percentage of the battery is the same as the others, than I stop the
charging. I normally did not have to do this charging until after four years
of used and than do it only every six months when I do a full battery
maintenance.
I would like to install Rich Rudmans regulators, but there is no room to put
them. Cannot put them on the top of T-145's filler caps and cannot put them
beside the filler caps on top of the connection cables. Anyway, I don't want
them in the atmosphere of a venting battery.
Can't put them in the compartment where the battery charger is in. There is
only 1/2 inch space all around the PFC-50 charger.
There is no more room left in the contactor, fuse, circuit breaker, exhaust
fan, AC and DC indicators compartment. I just got done installing a small
contactor to isolated the battery charger from the batteries when not charging
in this compartment which is the last 4 inch by 4 inch space that was left.
I have two battery compartments. I calculated if I used a 12 volt battery.
I would have lots of room for the regulators in the other compartment.
The battery compartment for these batteries to fit in is 42.5 inches long by
40.5 inches wide by 12 inches high where 15 each 12 volt batteries would have
to fit in.
My weight of me EV would go down to about 5500 lbs. What would the cycle
life of the best battery out there that would be cost effective for my driving
needs for a daily driving distance of 10 to 15 miles at speeds under 30 mph?
Of course, I do not need any new batteries for about 8 to 10 years.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
> My daily travel is a lot of 1/2 mile to 1 mile runs, with stops of 30 to
60 minutes. My maximum average speed is 15 mph with one run that will get
way up to 30 mph. All my runs are in residential areas. Many times, I can
drive right inside a building and get a free charge doing a demo.
>
> Driving the ICE gets a average of 5 to 10 MPG because of the many stops
and the engine never gets warm up. Yes, if I drove it the ICE at 60 mph for
a very long distance of over 100 miles, it will do 25 to 30 MPG.
>
> I had to replace the ICE engine two times driving it this slow speed and
stops.
>
> The last set of batteries, lasted well over 8 years and had only 4 battery
replacements out of 30 batteries in 10 years. Many of them were in balance
of 0.01 to 0.04 volt each.
>
> Yes, they will not have the range after 4 years if I had to drive them at
60 mph, but at 15 mph average, I was able to squeeze every bit of energy out
of them. Drove them until I could no longer go 1/2 mile.
>
> When I order a new set of batteries, I specific that they will be a
balance set, and a manufacture date no less than 30 days. This set came
only 15 days old and the voltage of each battery was standing at 6.33 volts
while two of them was at 6.34 volts.
>
> These batteries are using a Hydrocell Company approved method of
ventilation and absorbing type of material, that keeps these batteries very
clean. Lose very little fluid and may only have to water them every 3 or 4
months.
>
> The EV is ideal for many stops and short range, as compare to a ICE. Ask
the Boeing Company of whom I worked for, and the U.S. Airforce why many of
there RAMP vehicles are electric?
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Need help with conceptual math
>
>
> <snip>
>
> ...My new set of batteries which are T-145's cost $2400.00.
> Distill water at $0.75 a gallon per month = $90.00
> Ten years = $2400.00+ $90.00 = $2490.00 for batteries.
> Per 50 miles per week = $2490.00/520 = $4.78
> ^^^^^^^^
> If electricity is $0.10 per KW by than, therefore...
>
> <snip>
>
> Some people *walk* more than 50 miles a week!
>
> He needs to commute 50 miles *per day*, about 13K mi a year, plus
around-town
> driving, and at freeway speeds - the pack would be lucky to last 2
years, even
> if well-tended. It would be better to keep the ICE pickup for truck
duties, and
> convert something much smaller for commuting; if it has to be the truck,
you'd
> need about 1 ton of floodeds (~30), and even then, you'd have to keep
below 65
> mph to make the round trip without daily drops below 80%DOD.
>
> Even if the electricity for the EV was more than the house's summer AC,
we don't
> pay for our ICEs' gasoline use by the month (well, maybe if you drove
only 200
> miles a month). If you convert a car to electric ONLY to save money, in
the
> end, you probably won't - you do it for the environment, for a silent
drive,
> because a cartoon engineer like Dilbert does it, or just because you can
(p.s.
> - I can't, all my EVs have been "pre-existing")!
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.4/109 - Release Date: 21/09/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes it is OK.
And... If you can drive while yer chargin'... that's one long extention
cord.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Charging wires
> Is that a "yes it is ok" rich ?
>
> <snide humor>
> or is it a qualified yes....may damage the zilla or "don't drive while I
> charge" disclaimer
> </snide humor>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm throwing in a PCB for a digital isolated battery shunt using the
EVil bus. It takes in 12v but uses an isolated DC/DC so the shunt can
be placed anywhere on an isolated pack, high or low, or to measure motor
current. The accuracy is down to a few mA, rejects PWM frequencies, can
have its address changed so more than one can be on the system, and can
be calibrated.
Is there any protocol spec though on how the EVil talks to the
devices? I haven't written the software for the protocol.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great prices. My recommendations:
Get the lowest amp meter that will serve your needs. Meters are rated
to the specified accuracy for a 100% overload. They actually do
better than that. I use a number of 5 amp rated meters designed for
current transformer service. They're good to at least 20 amps. I
have a meter calibration bench so I can test this stuff.
240 volt meters work equally well on 120 or 240. The diagram for 120
volt hookup on the site will work but is needlessly complicated. The
idea is that since the potential coil is at half voltage, the current
coil needs to see double the current to generate the same wattage.
Passing the current through both legs additively (as the diagram
shows) does that. However, it is simpler to simply run the neutral
through the other leg rather than have to mess with the extra wire and
the potential link. As in this picture:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/power%20meter/power_meter_2.jpg
Normally the potential coil is connected across the top two prongs so
simply hooking the hot and neutral supply to the top two and the load
hot and neutral to the bottom, the current makes two passes as
desired, one going out and one coming back.
Get the rotary dial type and not the odometer type. While the rotary
register takes a bit more practice to read, the pointers can be easily
reset to all "0" by simply twisting each pointer. It slides on the
shaft. The odo type has to be taken apart to reset. While one can
record a "start" and "end reading and take the difference, it is
easier to simply zero the meter before each use.
Electronic register meters don't work with the 120 volt trick so stick
to the mechanical ones. I have some electronic ones that I use for
data logging via the infrared port but I had to fit a small 120/240
volt transformer inside the meter box to make it read correctly. The
accuracy of the ratio of the step-up transformer directly affects the
accuracy of the meter so finding a transformer with exactly 2:1
windings or else measuring the ratio and using a multiplier is
necessary. I have a Biddle transformer ratio bridge that makes this
easy but absent that, measuring ratio with sufficient accuracy is
difficult so I recommend staying away from the electronic ones unless
you plan on using them on 240 service.
When I set up a test run, I use a permanent industrial Sharpie
(doesn't bleach out in the sun like the non-industrial one does) to
write the "start" reading (even if zero) and the time and date on the
glass (be sure to get a glass enclosed meter). At the end of the
test, a little solvent removes the sharpie.
A 100 watt light bulb makes an excellent check cal load. If the line
voltage is exactly 120 volts (adjust with a variac if necessary) the
lamp will draw 100.0xx watts, good to at least one decimal place.
The Kh factor marked on the meter's face is the number of watt-hours
(not KWH) that one revolution of the disc represents. One can measure
the watt (not watt-hour) draw by counting the disc revolutions,
multiplying by the Kh factor and normalizing to hours.
A CT meter (120 or 240 volt potential coil, 5 amp current coil) is
very handy for a variety of uses. It can be used with a suitable
current transformer (CT) for remote metering. Say, you want to meter
your charger at the panel and want to see it from the driver's seat of
your car. Simply place the CT in the breaker panel and run 5 wire
light gauge (2 potential, 2 current, ground) wire to wherever you want
the meter. Without a CT, the meter is a very accurate instrument
capable of metering up to 15 to 20 amps.
A socket isn't strictly required. I have drilled and bolted
connections to the meter prongs before. Some come with a hole in each
prong already. The meter does have to be vertical, however. A hunk
of wood bolted to the bottom of a 200 amp base as in this pix does the
trick nicely:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/power%20meter/power_meter_1.jpg
Inside the meter is what looks like some loose very light gauge wires,
apparently not connected to anything. This is the power factor
compensating winding. Do not mess with or even move these wires, as
that will affect the performance of the meter on low power factor
loads (non PFC chargers, for instance.)
Don't dink with the internal adjustments. It's easy to screw up the
calibration and it takes specialized instruments to re-cal. Don't try
to check your meter by comparing volts and amps on DVMs. First off,
the DVMs can't do power factor correction. Second, small errors in
the DVM readings represent large difference when integrated over time
by the power meter. Assume the power meter is correct unless you've
damaged it or you have the proper instruments to check it with (a lab
master watt-hour standard or electronic version thereof.)
Keep the glass envelope on at all times except to re-zero the dials.
The damping magnet will attract magnetic debris which will adversely
affect the accuracy. This is a delicate instrument that should be
treated like a clockworks when open.
Don't try to oil the works. They are lubricated for life with a
special lube. Oil WILL screw up the accuracy.
A utility power meter is one of the most accurate instruments most
people will ever have. A typical meter will do better than 1% across
the entire load range including overload and low power factor. Usually
much better.
John
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:40:02 -0700, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Here is a meter place
>http://www.hialeahmeter.com/siphwame.html
>
>One meter does 120 or 240 vac and 100 amps.
>
>Rush
>Tucson AZ
>www.ironandwood.org
>
>
>> Buy a power meter and meter the power going to your car. Easy as
>> that.
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
