EV Digest 4852
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Lift-off at 6:00 Tonight at PIR!
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lift-off at 6:00 Tonight at PIR!
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: The 'range issue' Drag/street S10
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: More about tires
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Sudden drop in voltage
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Lift-off at 6:00 Tonight at PIR!
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lift-off at 6:00 Tonight at PIR! EHAAAAHAH!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 1.591 second 60 ft. WZ Launch Video
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The 'range issue'
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sudden drop in voltage
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Drag racing and the range issue
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Max current w/top terminal UPS batteries?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Question about charging
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Walmart heater cores
by kluge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Question about charging
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Walmart heater cores
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: The 'range issue' (long)
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Don't drive away with your cord dragging: was Daddy says don't
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Sudden drop in voltage, Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Sudden drop in voltage
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: More about tires - sidewall stiffness vs energy loss
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: The 'range issue' (long)
by "Pool, Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Use SLI Batteries for Drag Racing?
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I visited PIR on Friday, as I walked around I heard a lot of chatter in the
stands about John's car.
"See that little white car? It's electric! Yes! They call it the
'slingshot', because of the way it launches off the line...."
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lift-off at 6:00 Tonight at PIR!
Hello to All,
Ryan Stotts wrote:
>Wayland wrote: lots of rear wheel spin, the front end came a full foot
>off the ground and the car carried the tires about 50 feet
>
>
>
>Sounds like it's got more potential then just high 11's?
>
Maybe, but we failed to hit that mark Saturday night :-(
>What do you
>think it might run once you get it too hook?
>
>
>
I'm not sure....it's gotten real interesting these past couple of nights
drag racing. With Fall firmly entrenched, the track just gets too cold
as soon as the sun goes down. That Wednesday night about two weeks ago
was probably our best shot at the 11's for this year. The high power Pro
class cars were blistering their rubber and laying down lots of stick
for us, so even with the cold track, we had great traction....the dual
12.1 runs proved that. This past Friday and Saturday nights, we were
back to street racing, with only a handful of super quick pro type cars,
and lots of the regular 13-14 second drag cars, so the track was really
bad. One launch right after they had cleaned the track, the Zombie
lazily left the line with both rear tires boiling for maybe 60 feet or
so with a so-so 60 ft. time of 2.2 seconds...it ran a 13.3 something.
The very next run though, after a few of the more powerful machines had
spun their tires, we bagged a 12.6 because the car hooked up much better.
Saturday night, we were getting very strong launches and our very best
ever, 60 ft. time with an awesome 1.59!! However, after the car's front
end touched back down it was hard for Tim to keep it straight as both
rear tires scratched and clawed at 40-60 mph. Even so, with the battery
amps raised to 1100 amps (yes, the little 26 ahr Hawker Aerobatteries
lived through it) and with clearly audible tire squealing at the
series-to-parallel upshift, we got down to the 12.2 region on the last
two passes....not too shabby.
To answer your question, I'd have to agree with Tim, that all things
being just right, the car as is. 'might' run an 11.9 or perhaps even an
11.8. However, I think that's about it with the present gear ratio in
back. Now, with slightly taller gears, say a 4:40 instead of the present
4:57, I think we'd be looking seriously at mid 11's being 'possible'.
Talk is cheap, though, so I'll shut up now and try to prove this next
Spring :-)
By the way, once we turned up the battery amps to 1100 late on Saturday
night, White Zombie was pretty violent off the line, clearing the
pavement by at least a foot and staying aloft with the nose up for quite
a ways...this really brought the small late night crowd to their feet!
The car doesn't just pop up the nose anymore...it pulls it up and keeps
it off the ground for a fair distance, then gently settles back down.
On one run when I was in the crowd watching like they were, two guys
were talking about the run about to happen down on the track...the
little White Datsun vs a bad ass Subaru 300 hp STI all wheel drive. The
one guy said, "That little Datsun's gonna get creamed." The other guy
said, "I take it, you haven't seen it run yet?" One guy, "Nope, but that
Sube's the high powered low 13 second version, the STI....he's gonna
blow off that little Datsun." Other guy, "Uhhh, no, I don't think so!
Let's put it this way....the Sube driver has no idea of what's about to
happen to him...by the way, it's an electric car!" About then, the tree
sent the combatants on their way. The Sube launched hard with its 300 hp
and all wheel drive, but Tim powered the Zombie into a wheel lifting
launch that made it look as if the EV had been shot out of a cannon! By
the time the front wheels were back on the ground, White Zombie was
probably 2 car lengths ahead of the hot Sube. At the far end of the
track the reader boards said it all....13.316 for the STI.....12.231 for
the electric car!
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland writes:
>
> The Sube launched hard with its 300 hp
> and all wheel drive, but Tim powered the Zombie into a wheel lifting
> launch that made it look as if the EV had been shot out of a cannon! By
> the time the front wheels were back on the ground, White Zombie was
> probably 2 car lengths ahead of the hot Sube. At the far end of the
> track the reader boards said it all....13.316 for the STI.....12.231 for
> the electric car!
John,
Good stuff! This is what will get EVs accepted as 'real' cars: literally
putting EVs up against 'real' cars and blowing their doors off.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone mentioned using a Geo Metro engine for a generator, since it weighs
only 165 pounds and is low emissions. To retain the low emissions aspect,
you'll probably want keep the ECM (Engine Control Module) as well. The ECM
is the computer that monitors and controls various functions of the engine
for efficiency.
If anyone is interested, I have an intact Geo Metro engine and ECM that I
removed from my conversion a couple of months ago.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
Hi,
Phil Marino wrote:
My guess would be that the higher load-rated ( and pressure-rated)
tire has heavier sidewalls to tolerate the extra pressure. If that's
true, it would probably have higher rolling resistance than the
lower-rated version.
> Now I'm curious as to why a heavy side wall tire has greater rolling
resistance. For some reason I was under the impression that tires with
thicker side walls wouldn't >sag as much against the road, reducing
their rolling resistance at a given load?
A little of both.. a stiff sidewall reduces flex... less flex = better
rolling resistance. But when it does flex (as all tire must) it will
take more energy to do so. There is probably some crossover point, but
basically you want a tire built for the load it will be carrying and not
significantly more.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been driving my used S-15 conversion with new batteries for about 6
months or so. The batteries have been well maintained. Water level is good,
connections are tight, voltage is inline when I checked on the first of the
month.
On my way home last night which would be mile 20 or so of my daily driving I
had just crossed over a highway onto the road into town when my voltage dropped
from 120 to <90 on my 126 volt pack. I pulled over and checked and no loose
connections or hot terminals. Everything looked ok.. If I drove at <50 amps
then it was fine so after waiting a few minutes I limped the last could miles
home keeping it above 120 and pulling over for everyone to pass.
When I got home I turned my heater on to keep some load on the batteries and
checked the voltages. One battery was at 5.8 volts and the rest were at 6.05 or
so. Could a single reversed cell cause that huge of a voltage drop? It wasn't
dry inside or hot to touch anywhere. Or because the weather has now dipped
below 75 degrees did my short 22-24 mile commute suddenly become impossible
with my 21 US2200s. When I had my emeter hooked up the commute would take
around 60 amps.
I hadn't even thought the texas winter could pose any problems after having EVs
in connecticut buried in snow and still being able to make it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As do I! It really makes me wish I had the funds to restart work on my car.
-Mike
On 10/25/05, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> God I love reading your stories John! I especially like blowing the gas
> boys
> minds with the wheelstands. Next season is going to be hot with so many
> new
> cars being built! Heck, I may even get off my butt and build something.
> You
> are doing an incredible job of bringing EV drag racing into mainstream
> consciousness. You certainly earned and deserved the Rannberg Cup Award
> this
> year. Keep up the great work! I know there are many of us out here
> cheering
> you and Tim on, not to mention Jim. Way to go!!!
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com <http://www.suckamps.com>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Lift-off at 6:00 Tonight at PIR!
>
>
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >
> >>Wayland wrote: lots of rear wheel spin, the front end came a full foot
> >>off the ground and the car carried the tires about 50 feet
> >>
> >>
> >>Sounds like it's got more potential then just high 11's?
> > Maybe, but we failed to hit that mark Saturday night :-(
> >
> >>What do you
> >>think it might run once you get it too hook?
> >>
> >>
> > I'm not sure....it's gotten real interesting these past couple of nights
> > drag racing. With Fall firmly entrenched, the track just gets too cold
> as
> > soon as the sun goes down. That Wednesday night about two weeks ago was
> > probably our best shot at the 11's for this year. The high power Pro
> class
> > cars were blistering their rubber and laying down lots of stick for us,
> so
> > even with the cold track, we had great traction....the dual 12.1 runs
> > proved that. This past Friday and Saturday nights, we were back to
> street
> > racing, with only a handful of super quick pro type cars, and lots of
> the
> > regular 13-14 second drag cars, so the track was really bad. One launch
> > right after they had cleaned the track, the Zombie lazily left the line
> > with both rear tires boiling for maybe 60 feet or so with a so-so 60 ft.
> > time of 2.2 seconds...it ran a 13.3 something. The very next run though,
> > after a few of the more powerful machines had spun their tires, we
> bagged
> > a 12.6 because the car hooked up much better.
> >
> > Saturday night, we were getting very strong launches and our very best
> > ever, 60 ft. time with an awesome 1.59!! However, after the car's front
> > end touched back down it was hard for Tim to keep it straight as both
> rear
> > tires scratched and clawed at 40-60 mph. Even so, with the battery amps
> > raised to 1100 amps (yes, the little 26 ahr Hawker Aerobatteries lived
> > through it) and with clearly audible tire squealing at the
> > series-to-parallel upshift, we got down to the 12.2 region on the last
> two
> > passes....not too shabby.
> >
> > To answer your question, I'd have to agree with Tim, that all things
> being
> > just right, the car as is. 'might' run an 11.9 or perhaps even an 11.8.
> > However, I think that's about it with the present gear ratio in back.
> Now,
> > with slightly taller gears, say a 4:40 instead of the present 4:57, I
> > think we'd be looking seriously at mid 11's being 'possible'. Talk is
> > cheap, though, so I'll shut up now and try to prove this next Spring :-)
> >
> > By the way, once we turned up the battery amps to 1100 late on Saturday
> > night, White Zombie was pretty violent off the line, clearing the
> pavement
> > by at least a foot and staying aloft with the nose up for quite a
> > ways...this really brought the small late night crowd to their feet! The
> > car doesn't just pop up the nose anymore...it pulls it up and keeps it
> off
> > the ground for a fair distance, then gently settles back down.
> >
> > On one run when I was in the crowd watching like they were, two guys
> were
> > talking about the run about to happen down on the track...the little
> White
> > Datsun vs a bad ass Subaru 300 hp STI all wheel drive. The one guy said,
> > "That little Datsun's gonna get creamed." The other guy said, "I take
> it,
> > you haven't seen it run yet?" One guy, "Nope, but that Sube's the high
> > powered low 13 second version, the STI....he's gonna blow off that
> little
> > Datsun." Other guy, "Uhhh, no, I don't think so! Let's put it this
> > way....the Sube driver has no idea of what's about to happen to him...by
> > the way, it's an electric car!" About then, the tree sent the combatants
> > on their way. The Sube launched hard with its 300 hp and all wheel
> drive,
> > but Tim powered the Zombie into a wheel lifting launch that made it look
> > as if the EV had been shot out of a cannon! By the time the front wheels
> > were back on the ground, White Zombie was probably 2 car lengths ahead
> of
> > the hot Sube. At the far end of the track the reader boards said it
> > all....13.316 for the STI.....12.231 for the electric car!
> >
> > See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
> >
> > http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date:
> 10/21/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/146 - Release Date: 10/21/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Lift-off at 6:00 Tonight at PIR!
> Hello to All,
>
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> >Wayland wrote: lots of rear wheel spin, the front end came a full foot
> >off the ground and the car carried the tires about 50 feet
> > Hi EVerybody;
WOW! Wish I had been there woth the Vid Camera! Was anybody else? Any
good vids forthcoming? Seems like Plasma Boy Racing needs a "on Staff
"cameraman, for sure.
Heartwarming stories, Zombie dusting Whatever, with the amps turned up.
The Aero Hawkers would be a good choice for a grocery getter, too? Getting
the ice scream home before it turns to soup<g>!
Keep them coming!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
A quick note to let everyone know I've posted the video up at the Plasma
Boy Racing site, of the 11:59 pm solo run of White Zombie from this past
Saturday night. It was a 12.245 @ 104.50 mph pass, that begins with the
front end off the ground and resulted in a fantastic 1.591 second 60 ft.
time.You can clearly hear the tires trying to get traction, and, hear
the series-to-parallel upshift and the accompanying faint tire chirping
as the torquey Siamese 8 electric motor has its way with them. I've got
more videos against hot gas cars to post later when I've got the time.
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps, when we can buy an affordable FCHV (a plug-in battery powered electric
vehicle with a fuel cell as a range extender) then the current differences in
perception will be moot.
The fuel cell meets Lee Hart's idea of exchangeable battery packs. And, the
closest thing now under testing is a FCX made by the same car maker that makes
Chris' universal Insight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
It is a great thing that you and a few others I have heard over the years
have been able to get EV charging so easily I wish everyone will have that kind
of experience while owning their EV. I have to say though that some people may
not want to depend on it because it is far from my experience.
Myself I have charged 3 places in my short 5+ year EV life. My parents,
my house and a very small business I used to work. By small I mean I was the
one employee and it actually was the landlords electricity not my boss's
anyways.
At my new job in Texas I park not 10 feet from an outlet every day I
can't use. I could risk plugging in and seeing what happened but I can't risk
my job and people have been fired for less around here. I have asked many
people in the environmental group, facilities and security and the answer is no
even if I offer to pay a few dollars a day which is far more then the
electricity could possibly cost.
Stores I shop at won't allow it in CT or TX. It isn't like I just go
to the stores and ask. I have been there many times and I know the people and
they know me and when I mention that I have an EV and if I could charge it
while I shop the answer is no and if I try to talk about it and alleviate their
concerns they keep coming up with different reasons so I let it go.
I know people who live in more rural places that had better luck free
or not so maybe that has something to do with it. I myself feel that you can't
depend on any charging that isn't part of an infrastructure of some kind. For
your own conversion or especially for one that is sold.
Mark Hastings
85 S-15 pickup.. That probably wouldn't have had the problem last night if I
could just plug it in at work.
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Nick Carter said:
> Luckily we're in a different environment where it's not so rural, plus we
> have enough public
> charging that you can drive way beyond the single-charge range of a vehicle,
> as we've done
> many times. I often balance out the charge time with, "Well, it's free!".
> Also, "If you're in a
> hurry, buy your ga$ and drive your ICE, I'll take my time and go electric for
> free, thanks".
From: Christopher Robison
> This approach may work in California... but it's not very effective in
> general because it
> assumes an unusual operating scenario. To make a compelling argument about
> EVs to
> most people (the majority of the world's population lives outside of urban
> California),
> you can't play the "cheap/free" card.
Actually, you can! I'd guess I have charged my EV in 100 different places,
always from the completely ordinary 120vac outlets. It's been done at friend's
houses, at businesses while I eat or shop, or when I needed a brief "pick me
up" charge to make it home after some unexpectedly long trip. No one has ever
charged me for doing so. In most cases, I offer to pay, and they refuse. When
they do accept payment, it's been $1 or so to buy them a Coke or cup of coffee.
You don't need any special infrastructure to charge an EV!
> EV energy cost seems to be about the same overall, given the concomitant
> expense of regular
> battery pack replacement. High performance EVs with their expensive AGMs tend
> to cost more.
Yes; but conservative EVs with flooded batteries cost less. On average, my EVs
with flooded batteries cost about half as much per mile as the same vehicle
would have cost for gasoline, *including* battery replacement cost. Cost of the
electricity alone is trivial compared to the replacement cost per mile of the
batteries.
> more conservative flooded EVs seem to be less expensive given current gas
> prices,
> but it's uncertain if prices will remain this way, at least in the short term.
EVs have *always* been less expensive per mile than gasoline, at least for the
last 50 years or more. That's why they are so common in industrial
applications; they are cheaper to run. I only see this situation improving as
gas prices continue to climb.
> Most folks do not have access to free power, and at any rate would not
> consider it a fair trade
> for being forced to spend an hour stranded at the grocery store.
If your boss lets you charge at work, you are getting free power. If your
landlord lets you charge at your apartment, you are getting free power. If the
store where you shop lets you plug in while you're there, you're getting free
power. I've done all these. neither boss nor landlord nor store owner would
accept any payment. In fact, here in Minnesota, outside AC outlets right next
to parking places are very common; they are there so people can plug in their
car's block heater in winter so it will start after sitting out at -30 deg.F.
They are always free for use.
I have a KWH meter in my EV, and can demonstrate to anyone that a charge is
only using 50 cents or so worth of electricity -- it's too low to bother to
bill for. My EV doesn't even use 10% of my home's monthly power, and an
insignificant fraction of a company's power. It's so low that it's "lost in the
noise" of all the other big electricity users.
> The problem there is that although the ability to charge an EV in my
> garage is great -- I consider it a huge advantage -- the inability to
> charge anywhere else (remember, we're talking about the US, not just
> California) is more than enough disadvantage to offset it. For John Doe,
> bribing the guy behind the counter at the kwicki-mart and taking 30
> minutes to buy soda and chips (or beer, cigarettes and lotto cards,
> whatever) so he can get back home is not an acceptable day-to-day option.
Have you ever *asked* anyone if you can charge from one of their outside AC
outlets? I think what you are describing is a "bogeyman" that doesn't actually
happen in practice. My experience has been that as soon as I say "I have an
electric car..." most people say "Cool! Can I see it?" and then I am going to
be there for the next 20-30 minutes anyway giving a show and tell. They are
delighted to let me plug in.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hastings wrote:
I have been driving my used S-15 conversion with new batteries for about 6
months or so. The batteries have been well maintained. Water level is good,
connections are tight, voltage is inline when I checked on the first of the
month.
On my way home last night which would be mile 20 or so of my daily driving I had just
crossed over a highway onto the road into town when my voltage dropped from 120 to
<90 on my 126 volt pack. I pulled over and checked and no loose connections or hot
terminals. Everything looked ok.. If I drove at <50 amps then it was fine so after
waiting a few minutes I limped the last could miles home keeping it above 120 and
pulling over for everyone to pass.
When I got home I turned my heater on to keep some load on the batteries and
checked the voltages. One battery was at 5.8 volts and the rest were at 6.05 or
so. Could a single reversed cell cause that huge of a voltage drop? It wasn't
dry inside or hot to touch anywhere. Or because the weather has now dipped
below 75 degrees did my short 22-24 mile commute suddenly become impossible
with my 21 US2200s. When I had my emeter hooked up the commute would take
around 60 amps.
I hadn't even thought the texas winter could pose any problems after having EVs
in connecticut buried in snow and still being able to make it.
Hm. I have noticed my voltage dropping on the Prizm now that it's in the
40's at night/50's day. What used to be in the 290's is now in the 280's
with dips to 275 at 180amp draws (300v pack,52ah).
How low do you usually go when driving? I tend to keep the pack above
11vpb (275 or so) at all times, and stay out of the 260's. The
controller has a lockout at 250 (10vpb), but that's low on a long string.
Also is it possible to reverse a battery just because it's cold?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Recently there have been couple of very interesting
threads that I think are related.
Several people have offered some very insightful
comments on the realities of the current state of EVs
range and the publics perception of it.
Earlier, there was a somewhat more lively discussion
of drag racing and the contributions its
practitioners make to the development of EVs.
I believe it may be time to take the next step and
apply the benefits of racing to the range issue.
In the early days of ICEs, the public perception was
much the same regarding those stink pots as it is
today regarding EVs. Lousy range, no infrastructure,
unreliable, and always needing worked on. All of these
perceptions were true initially. However the
proponents (and marketers) began to organize and
publicize races. Races against horses. Races against
each other. Races across the nation. The effect was
twofold. The public was made more aware of the
abilities of autos and the autos were made better.
Because no racer likes to lose. As they say, the rest
is history.
EVs on the drag strip have begun the process of
changing the publics perception that EVs are slow and
wimpy. Drag racing also provides incentive and a test
environment for innovation. I have no doubt that we
will continue to see the state of the art pushed
forward because people want to go faster in the
quarter mile.
Drag racing was the natural place to start racing EVs
because its format fits fairly well with the
strengths of EVs. Long distance racing is a different
story. Because of the range issue.
Is it time to tackle it? If so, racing is the way to
do it. Racing will keep people up at night devising a
better way. Racing will cause people to piggyback
ideas to come up with something new. In the recent
thread about range it was suggested that are three
basic ways to tackle the range problem. Maybe there is
another way we havent thought of yet. Who knows?
How to make it happen? I dont know. Maybe NEDRA spins
off NELDRA (National Electric Long Distance Racing
Association). Maybe someone decides to throw down the
gauntlet and challenges others to race across the
nation, or from LA to Seattle, or from St. Louis to
Kansas City. Maybe someone finds an oval track or an
abandoned airstrip and holds a 250 or 500 mile race
for EVs.
Im not an organizer type of person. However I believe
that if the motivation of racing were applied to the
range issue we would begin to see more excitement and
innovation in this area. I know some people are
already working very hard to do this. But there is
nothing like an upcoming race to focus the mind and
make things happen.
Who wants to be the first EV to finish the BAJA 1000?
Anyone?
Way more than my 2 cents worth.
Ken
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Max current w/top terminal UPS batteries?
Hi All;
It goes to show ya; the older tech is the best. WHY did battery folks and
auto makers settle on the automotive post as long ago as I can remember, 50
years ago, any OLDER folks here? Cars in the 30's and 40's
used............the Automotive posts. Duh! I'lll bet that they go back to
the beginning of time. Battery wise?? The tightining up of the terminal
holds things TIGHT so the lead can't ooze out.
My two foot lbs worth
Seeya
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
My Force came with an EVI ICS 200 AVCON charger. Would you recommend
that I have this installed as well as a 6-20 or forget about it and just
install the 6-20. Are their any advantages to using the external
charger?
Thanks,
Noel L
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--- Begin Message ---
Are the fan motors really AC, or are they universal? If the latter, it seems
it would just be a matter of replacing the switches to run one of
these on pack voltage...
1500 watt ceramic heater that can be found at
>wallmart for $17. Anyone taken one apart and used it? (or 2 of them)
>
yes. Pretty much the same element, I think. I have "tested" one on
my 72 volt Citi by ****disconnecting the AC fan****, jumpering the 72 volts to
the plug on the cord and holding a muffin fan up to the back of the
heater. It put out considerable heat, even on that low voltage.
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--- Begin Message ---
Noel,
The Avcon is not a charger. It is a GFI outlet for your vehicle's onboard
charger. I have one for my Prizm and it works well. The AC lines from
the Avcon to the car are unpowerd until the handle makes a solid connection
to the inlet in the vehicle. The vehicle may also make use of the inlet's
"handle installed" relay to prevent you from driving the vehicle while the
handle is installed.
Since you have it, I'd recommend installing it.
Ralph
Noel P. Luneau writes:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> My Force came with an EVI ICS 200 AVCON charger. Would you recommend
> that I have this installed as well as a 6-20 or forget about it and just
> install the 6-20. Are their any advantages to using the external
> charger?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Noel L
>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "kluge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Walmart heater cores
> Are the fan motors really AC, or are they universal? If the latter, it
seems it would just be a matter of replacing the switches to run one of
> these on pack voltage...
>
Hi All;
Yeah! They are NOT universal! They use a shaded pole type thing, think
CHEEP! Too bad cuz it would be easy to just plug them in on DC.So plan on a
DC blower, the one that came WITH the car.
Seeya
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
>> But we need the
>> infrastructure, it's a chicken and egg thing; Which comes first? The
>> charging system, or the cars?
well, of course, a charging infrastructure for EVs already exists across
a huge portion of the entire world already (ie: electrical outlets in
the walls of the overwhelming majority of buildings all around the
planet today)...
all we are looking for now is a slightly more _convenient_ charging
infrastructure (ie: higher power, faster charge times)
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
I need to have a charging door safety lock and have a zilla, so your solution
would be great. Could you send me the specs/photos?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Don't drive away with your cord dragging: was Daddy says don't
> Hi Bill and EVeryone,
>
> If anyone has any more detailed questions on how to do this, let me
> know. I have lots of pictures. They just aren't organized and linked
> on my pathetic conversion site yet!
>
> -Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark;
That happens! Seems like a battery will say" I'm outta here" and just
drop ya like a insurance Co.!To find it you should run around close to home
to really kill it, then the voltmeter will pick it out for you.Bettya will
find it hot and dead, like 4.something, voltage. It shoulda got hot, too. I
just DROVE on them so I would have NO problem finding it. The "Trojan
Teakettle" effect. I've smoked and gassed them for sure!As you did, backing
off will get you home, for awile, it'll charge up just great, and off you
go! Til it fizzles out again, a few miles less. The EV grin will come back
when you find the bum one or wire around it to get home! Batteries' junk
anyhow, so let 'er rip! Darwin Principle as applied to batteries!
My two Volts worth
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:23 AM
Subject: Sudden drop in voltage
> I have been driving my used S-15 conversion with new batteries for about 6
months or so. The batteries have been well maintained. Water level is good,
connections are tight, voltage is inline when I checked on the first of the
month.
> On my way home last night which would be mile 20 or so of my daily driving
I had just crossed over a highway onto the road into town when my voltage
dropped from 120 to <90 on my 126 volt pack. I pulled over and checked and
no loose connections or hot terminals. Everything looked ok.. If I drove at
<50 amps then it was fine so after waiting a few minutes I limped the last
could miles home keeping it above 120 and pulling over for everyone to pass.
> When I got home I turned my heater on to keep some load on the batteries
and checked the voltages. One battery was at 5.8 volts
That might be the guy! Run the hell out of the truck awile and come
back!
Get checkbook out /ready for a new battery!
and the rest were at 6.05 or so. Could a single reversed cell cause that
huge of a voltage drop?
Oh! You Bet!
It wasn't dry inside or hot to touch anywhere. Or because the weather has
now dipped below 75 degrees
Boy are YOU getting spoiled<g>! 35 last nite!
did my short 22-24 mile commute suddenly become impossible with my 21
US2200s.
I don't think so, but the batteries have to work together on this one!
Like a team of horses, if one dies and lays down, it ruins the day/trip for
the others! Makes the survivors work harder, they will get mad and crap out,
too.I have two crappers in the Rabbit,now, of COURSE the hardest ones to
change, Sigh!
When I had my emeter hooked up the commute would take around 60 amps.
> I hadn't even thought the texas winter could pose any problems after
having EVs in connecticut buried in snow and still being able to make it.
>
Bet ya don't miss the Corrupticut Winters<g>!
>
Seeya
Bob
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I always try to keep it above 115.. And it was at 120 when I was crossing the
street until it just dropped like a rock.
I'm going to bring it into the garage and have a look at it. Maybe it is the
cold but I can't believe I only have a 20 mile range in the cold with that much
lead and my slow and flat commute. I'm really hoping I have a mechanical
problem.
Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Hastings wrote:
> I have been driving my used S-15 conversion with new batteries for about 6
> months or so. The batteries have been well maintained. Water level is good,
> connections are tight, voltage is inline when I checked on the first of the
> month.
> On my way home last night which would be mile 20 or so of my daily driving I
> had just crossed over a highway onto the road into town when my voltage
> dropped from 120 to <90 on my 126 volt pack. I pulled over and checked and no
> loose connections or hot terminals. Everything looked ok.. If I drove at <50
> amps then it was fine so after waiting a few minutes I limped the last could
> miles home keeping it above 120 and pulling over for everyone to pass.
> When I got home I turned my heater on to keep some load on the batteries and
> checked the voltages. One battery was at 5.8 volts and the rest were at 6.05
> or so. Could a single reversed cell cause that huge of a voltage drop? It
> wasn't dry inside or hot to touch anywhere. Or because the weather has now
> dipped below 75 degrees did my short 22-24 mile commute suddenly become
> impossible with my 21 US2200s. When I had my emeter hooked up the commute
> would take around 60 amps.
> I hadn't even thought the texas winter could pose any problems after having
> EVs in connecticut buried in snow and still being able to make it.
>
Hm. I have noticed my voltage dropping on the Prizm now that it's in the
40's at night/50's day. What used to be in the 290's is now in the 280's
with dips to 275 at 180amp draws (300v pack,52ah).
How low do you usually go when driving? I tend to keep the pack above
11vpb (275 or so) at all times, and stay out of the 260's. The
controller has a lockout at 250 (10vpb), but that's low on a long string.
Also is it possible to reverse a battery just because it's cold?
Chris
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I agree - but here's a bit more detail:
There are two different effects that provide the tire's stiffness and
support the weight on the tire. One is the sidewall stiffness, and the
other is the air pressure in the tire.
For any tire, by far the most weight is supported by the air pressure. (
Think of what happens to a tire - even one with heavy sidewalls - if you let
out the air). The percentage of the load supported by the sidewalls
depends on the sidewall stiffness and the air pressure in the tire.
Think of the air and the sidewalls as two springs in parallel. When the
tire rolls, you are continually deflecting and releasing these two springs.
The energy loss in a rolling tire is primarily caused by the damping in
these springs. ( there is also some damping and energy loss in the tread)
Fortunately, the air part of the spring has virtually no damping. But, the
sidewall can have a lot. The energy loss ( that shows up as heat) in the
sidewall depends on the stiffness of the sidewall and the damping in the
sidewall. Higher stiffness means more force to compress the sidewall
"spring", and more damping means a higher percentage of that compressing
energy is lost in each rotation of the tire.
So, more flexible sidewalls mean less energy loss, and lower damping
sidewalls mean less energy loss. LRR tires try to do both of these.
As an example, radial tires have much more flexible sidewalls than the old
bias-ply tires and, in general, have substantially lower rolling resistance.
So, when you increase the tire pressure, the tire deflects less, and more of
the load is taken by the air pressure ( no loss) and less by the sidewalls (
higher loss), so the total energy loss is less. This is a simple way to
understand why increasing the tire pressure results in lower rolling
resistance ( and, why almost-flat tires have a lot of drag)
Further, if you change to a wider tire ( of the same construction) at the
same air pressure, the air will support more of the load, and the sidewall
less. This is why - I believe - that wider tires (within reason) should
have lower rolling resistance at the same air pressure. Does anyone know of
any real data on this??? ( Yes - I know that bicycle racers use very narrow
tire, but that's for reduced air drag and weight - like the front wheels on
dragsters)
Phil
From: Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More about tires
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:15:09 -0500
Nick Viera wrote:
Hi,
Phil Marino wrote:
My guess would be that the higher load-rated ( and pressure-rated) tire
has heavier sidewalls to tolerate the extra pressure. If that's true, it
would probably have higher rolling resistance than the lower-rated
version.
> Now I'm curious as to why a heavy side wall tire has greater rolling
resistance. For some reason I was under the impression that tires with
thicker side walls wouldn't >sag as much against the road, reducing their
rolling resistance at a given load?
A little of both.. a stiff sidewall reduces flex... less flex = better
rolling resistance. But when it does flex (as all tire must) it will take
more energy to do so. There is probably some crossover point, but
basically you want a tire built for the load it will be carrying and not
significantly more.
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now!
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--- Begin Message ---
And don't forget it also needs to be more reliably accessible! I've been told
I can't charge at work because then my company would be providing me a benefit
that they wouldn't be providing anyone else and that they wouldn't benefit from
letting me charge. Until I can overcome that or reduce my range requirements
I'm nervous about taking on building an EV.
Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of toltec
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The 'range issue' (long)
>> But we need the
>> infrastructure, it's a chicken and egg thing; Which comes first? The
>> charging system, or the cars?
well, of course, a charging infrastructure for EVs already exists across
a huge portion of the entire world already (ie: electrical outlets in
the walls of the overwhelming majority of buildings all around the
planet today)...
all we are looking for now is a slightly more _convenient_ charging
infrastructure (ie: higher power, faster charge times)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even if it takes 1200A for 20 seconds for the drag
race, this is only 1200A*20s/1hr/3600s = 6.7Ah. Why
don't we use the SLI batteries? They are lighter,
cheaper, and potentially stiffer than AGM's. I know
they might not last. Is there any other reasons?
Ed Ang
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
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