EV Digest 4886
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Those "low end" surplus starter generator kits that several people are
selling
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: "Fall" Power of DC race results
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Electric mower update/part 1
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: newbie
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) "Fall" Power of DC Tidbits
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: "Fall" Power of DC race results
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: "Fall" Power of DC Tidbits
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: newbie
by John David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Only 8 made in 1960? Bout Right
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Those "low end" surplus starter generator kits that several people are
selling
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Those "low end" surplus starter generator kits that several people
are selling
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT: Is this nonsense?/moon power
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Modifying an E-tek motor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT: Is this nonsense?/moon power
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Alternative drive systems
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Modifying an E-tek motor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: "Fall" Power of DC Tidbits
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: multimeter
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This morning, I saw the comments on one of these kits, and I also read the
ones several months back concerning another similar kit, being sold by a
different person. I am going to leave off all the company names, because this
information is irrespective of who bundles the components together and sells
it. I
had brief and sometimes lengthy discussions with two different individuals
selling these kits within the past year. Like some others, I was originally
looking for a low priced EV for just commuting back and forth to work 0 - 45
MPH,
12 - 15 miles total per day. To someone like me, and others in the same
situation, these kits look like a "good deal" at first ...
And, maybe to some people under certain conditions and circumstances, they
will produce an EV that the person may be able to use on a limited basis. But,
you must be fully aware of the conditions under which some of the range claims
are made.
Example #1 - the distance record of Bruce Mckasky of 127.5 miles -
essentially kit #1...
- fiberglass dune buggy - very light weight, not sure it is was a shortened
VW pan or not
- 16, 6 Volt batteries (I don't know what brand / model). Configured in 2
sets at 48 V.
- Speed when he set the record - only 30 - 35 MPH (at this speed the
aerodynamics of the dune buddy was not as much of an issue)
- Driving skill - he is an expert - any we shouldn't expect to be able to
easily get that range with the same set-up
- I believe this was a compound wound starter generator
- I believe a 2 stage 24 / 48 V contactor controller
- These driving conditions are far from the real world terrain and traffic in
my neighborhood.
Example #2 - small car with surplus starter generator run at either 36, 48,
or 72 V
- These kits are currently available for several different (even late model)
cars
- 1 kit has 36 V on / off switch, 1 kits has a PWM with between 0 and 48 V,
one kit has an Altrax PWM, 0 - 72 V
- "motor" is a surplus starter generator (of the shunt variety) rated by some
at 10 HP, but claimed by this seller to produce 30 HP. I questioned the
seller extensively on this and he stuck by his claim of 30 HP.
- no cooling is used - even for the 72 V kit, but he does recommend cooling
at 96 V (even though he doesn't offer a controller for that)
- He claims highway speed capable 72 V kit and 48 V kit with field weakening.
He didn't mention trying to merge onto a crowded freeway ...
- The car really cannot start off the line (even on the flat) unless you
first rev up the motor (because of the shunt would, low power motor). If you
try
to, you are basically going to get very unsatisfactory results.
- Expect a lot of shifting.
Both of these "kits" run complete for $1500 - $2500 (no batteries or battery
boxes). Sounds like a pretty good deal for a cheap quick start at building an
EV ... Maybe, maybe not. What is something like this worth? Depends on what
you want to use it for.
The components themselves can be bought for $500 - $750 (maybe even less if
you shop around on the used / surplus market). So, I am saying that a very
motivated person with machining and automotive skils and electrical knowledge
can
create a set-up of their own like this for under $750 (of course, no
batteries or battery boxes yet). And, that won't give you much in the way of
instrumentation. The most difficult part, and where someone without experience
will
run into trouble, is mounting the motor to the transmission. If you don't have
the skill to make the adapter and coupler, you are going to pay a lot more to
have someone else make one or buy one off the shelf. And, FYI, most off the
shelf parts won't mate up to this old starter generator. That puts the person
trying to do this in a real bind. So, I am basically telling you that unless
you have some very good machining skills, it may cost you just as much to
build it yourself as they are selling it for. That is the only real advantage
that I see these kit bundlers have over doing it yourself. At least their
stuff
is "supposed to" bolt up correctly, and you have someone to call if it
doesn't.
What kind of real world performance can you expect with one of these kits?
This is only my opinion based on my EV experiences, so feel free to disagree
with me.
Using:
30 V, 400 A starter generator
12 - 16 batteries (T105s)
eight weight car, but not necessarily aerodynamic
4 speed manual with clutch
What I would expect in real world conditions - hills, stop and go, fall
weather temperatures (in the South):
Speed: 35 MPH realistically. You could get more with field
weakening, but don't try to go up a hill or accelerate
Range: 20 miles on a good day realistically. Practically, even less
as the pack ages, or in cold weather.
Efficiency: 60 - 65% realistically including loses. Maybe less if
your adapter / coupler isn't so great.
Acceleration: Slow as a fully loaded school bus with a careful
driver (my opinion) and that is very very very slow.
You will need to rev the motor prior to take off, or you won't go
anywhere
If that is all you want, one of these kits might work out for you. But,
longer term, I think you'll want to upgrade it. In my opinion, you would be
much
better off with bare minimum 8" diameter series wound motor with bare minimum
96 V, 400 A controller. Preferably, go with a 9" diameter motor and a 144 V,
500 A controller. I think you will be much happier with the result. Cost
wise, you may spend 2x as much building something that doesn't meet your needs
if
you start with an off brand, obsolete, inefficient motor. Those are just my
thoughts. I hope it helps.
I have stacks of information on this stuff, so if anyone has direct
questions, feel free to contact me off list.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: "Fall" Power of DC race results
> great going.
> when and where in Florida as I'm interested in seeing
> the car and meeting you. You have done a great job
> and are making the kind of products that will change
> perceptions about electrics and BEVs
> congraulations
> kEVs
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > All,
> >
> > Yesterday in Hagerstown may have been the most
> > beautiful day of the
> > year.
> > Almost 80 degrees, sunny, and the incredible view of
> > the mountains in
> > full fall color.
Hey Shawn!
Thanks for the Power of DC update. Sorry I didn't get there, it WAS in MY
time zone, EVen. Sounds like ya had a great time. If the place was packed it
often is a challange to run, Period!
Another one for the 100 mph klub! Right on! Hey Keith, looks like another
EV jaunt? To Fla, where it doesn't snow much, like Sandy Eggo<g>!
Seeya there?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My lawn biss is starting to slow down and last Wednesday looked like a light
day . I have been using the electric mower to cut yards around my house one
at a time , but didn't have a set up for charging from my work truck . The
PFC 50 charger was sitting in the box and as I looked at my old gas mower ,
and though about how much fun using the electric would be , I decided to
take some time that morning setting up the truck to charge the mower. Lots
of little details but my 1:00 I was off . My first yard was not far but one
of my big ones . The grass was thick , as the Hurricane has put me behind a
bit. I'm watching my e meter and using just enough power to get the job done
which ended up pulling 23 ah for the 6 orbitals . This is great as %80 of my
yards will be smaller and easier , I'm starting to feel like this could
work. Of course my customer is impressed , but as I've been doing her yard
for 20 years 10 of which with some kind of electric truck, they tell me what
I've been hearing allot lately , " I was wondering when your where going to
convert your lawn mower to electric,,,,," . I had a lot of reasons for not
doing it , just like people have a lot of reasons they think they can't
drive an electric car , . " I need it to work , I can't be playing around
with a tool the isn't going to do the job" . I have been looking back and
trying to figure when or what made to take this next step , . I often thing
when talking to people over the phone or e mail , who have never experienced
the trill of being in a " real " electric car/ truck , If they could just
get a ride in one it would set that ev fire going . That's what happened to
me after the test run on the first ev mower ( and yes 10 years ago with my
first electric tuck) . So after the grass cutting I put the mower on the
trailer , plugged it in , set the amps at 35 ( somewhere I saw where rich
said not to run pfc chargers on full when running on dc) and the e meter in
the truck say 18 amps , which makes sense as my truck is 150v lawn mower 72v
. I can see this is going to take about 40 minutes to charge , but I still
have weed wacking and have to blow off the drive , then a 20 minute drive to
the next yard , 10 miles away where most of my work is . My customer cuts
hair out of her house and had just put her customer under the hair dryer . "
Come in and let me give you a hair cut " . She started telling her customer
about my electric truck , and I answered all the usual questions , I have
that big ev grin going from the lawn mower project , but I controlled myself
and let them do most of the talking , as I've seen how others with EV
madness can turn people off by being JUST TO DAM HAPPY about the whole
thing. It is not easy being so excited about something but one thing my wife
has thought me through the years is , at some point people just don't want
to hear about it any more and its best not to get to that point . As hard as
this might be to believe I have not said one word about my electric mower to
my wife . NOT ONE WORD. soooo after my hair cut and the drive to Port Saint
Lucie the mower was all charged up . My 2nd yard was a easy one , with the
grass not to long and I would say about the same as %75 of the yards I have
. I again ran the mower using just enough to get the job done , and cut the
whole thing using just 15 ah ! good thing as no 3 was just around the corner
and I was at -10 ah when I pulled up to it . Another easy one and I was
at -25 ah when done ( used 15 ah again ) . The neighbor was working in the
back dealing with some hurricane clean up and I stopped and asked if he
wanted me to grind up that pile he was working on , "ya , please" .. The
electric made short work of the pile and of course he was blown away by the
whole thing .
to be continued ,
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert Chew wrote:
> Totally agree with the solar panel idea, they won't provide motive force
> during travel; well a very small fraction of it. However, I am using three
> on my vehicle to provide re-charging facility on the roof and the bonnet...
> maybe 6 km's from full day chargin from a 200 watt peak power
> setup.
Solar panels on EVs are ok if it sits out in the sun a lot, and you don't
drive it much. The solar power won't give you much extra range per day, but
it's better than nothing. Also, it is a conversation starter :-)
The drawback is that it's a pretty expensive way to get power.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few other notable events from yesterday.
1. The response to the car was ALL positive. The announcer commented
several times and the other racers who came and said hi were genuinely
impressed that such a little car could go so fast.
2. Lined up on the second and third runs against mid 8 second cars,
OJ-2 must have had them scared to death they were going to have to
explain to their ICE buddies that they lost to something powered by
batteries because both opponents redlighted terribly.
3. Darin Gilbert on the 48 volt Piranha lined up next to a MEGA HP
Turbo Hayabusa. Darin lost in a close one as the Busa ran a 8.66 @ 178
mph.
4. EV racing is so darn fun that somehow three 1/4 mile runs totalling
30 seconds are well worth 8 + hrs of driving getting there and back!
Shawn Lawless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Keith. The race is January 21st near West Palm Beach.
Shawn Wagonner, Can you list an actual address and track name for the
event again?
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 10:14:46 -0500
Subject: Re: "Fall" Power of DC race results
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: "Fall" Power of DC race results
great going.
when and where in Florida as I'm interested in seeing
the car and meeting you. You have done a great job
and are making the kind of products that will change
perceptions about electrics and BEVs
congraulations
kEVs
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> All,
>
> Yesterday in Hagerstown may have been the most
> beautiful day of the
> year.
> Almost 80 degrees, sunny, and the incredible view of
> the mountains in
> full fall color.
Hey Shawn!
Thanks for the Power of DC update. Sorry I didn't get there, it WAS
in MY
time zone, EVen. Sounds like ya had a great time. If the place was
packed it
often is a challange to run, Period!
Another one for the 100 mph klub! Right on! Hey Keith, looks like
another
EV jaunt? To Fla, where it doesn't snow much, like Sandy Eggo<g>!
Seeya there?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Shawn and All,
First....congrats on those nice runs!
It's been pouring for weeks now, it's dipping into the high 30's at
night, there's feet of snow dumping in the mountains (good news as the
ski season opened early this year), and it struggles to get above the
high forties - low 50's during the day....the Fall western Oregon rainy
season has definitely arrived. With this backdrop in mind, it's really
fun to have my morning breakfast with hot coffee as I look out my back
door into our evergreen trees still dripping from heavy rains, as I read
of Shawn's electric drag racing still going back on the east
coast....wish I was there to cheer the crew on! I can vaguely remember
the bright sun and those EV racing friendly 85 degree Summer days......
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
1. The response to the car was ALL positive. The announcer commented
several times and the other racers who came and said hi were genuinely
impressed that such a little car could go so fast.
Yeah, don't you just love that part?
2. Lined up on the second and third runs against mid 8 second cars,
OJ-2 must have had them scared to death they were going to have to
explain to their ICE buddies that they lost to something powered by
batteries because both opponents redlighted terribly.
Maybe they noticed your 60 ft. times?
4. EV racing is so darn fun that somehow three 1/4 mile runs
totalling 30 seconds are well worth 8 + hrs of driving getting there
and back!
Well said! Keep up the good work.
Looks like the '06 electric drag racing year's going to be a hoot! Now,
if I can only talk Shawn and the crew to head west this year to the
first NEDRA nationals at PIR! OJ would dust off White Zombie pretty
easily, but it would still be fun to run against each other. The crowd
here, would go nuts over another quick electric. Purple Phaze (it's a
priority to get it ready this Winter) might have a better chance as 10's
is our goal for that machine :-)
Congrats again, Shawn and crew!
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, depending on your commute, that's a pretty sizeable contribution.
My commute is twelve miles round trip. I plan on putting solar panels on my
VW Thing simply because I want green energy and since I live in military
housing, I can't do any modifications to the wiring system of the house
[which is too bad because I have a perfect south facing roof over my garage
:-( ]. But for me, 6 km (3.7 miles) is a huge portion of my daily commute.
So accounting for cloudy days, maybe 15% of my yearly commute would be
completely green. I could make even more of my commute green if I alternate
the days I ride my bike in and days I drive electric to work, letting my
pack charge for two or three days by the panels. That's also not including
the 30.8% of Maine utility power that is green. There is also 28% nuclear
power which doesn't contribute carbon to the atmosphere but has its own
issues, proponents and opponents. These figures are from 2002 so some of
them may have changed.
One other problem I see with solar power, on top of it being expensive, as
mentioned by Bruce Parmenter on this list, it can give the uninformed the
false impression that the vehicle is powered exclusively by solar power.
John David
www.maxmpg.org <http://www.maxmpg.org>
On 11/6/05, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Robert Chew wrote:
> > Totally agree with the solar panel idea, they won't provide motive force
> > during travel; well a very small fraction of it. However, I am using
> three
> > on my vehicle to provide re-charging facility on the roof and the
> bonnet...
> > maybe 6 km's from full day chargin from a 200 watt peak power
> > setup.
>
> Solar panels on EVs are ok if it sits out in the sun a lot, and you don't
> drive it much. The solar power won't give you much extra range per day,
> but
> it's better than nothing. Also, it is a conversation starter :-)
>
> The drawback is that it's a pretty expensive way to get power.
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> Yup! That's a "Henney Kilowatt"! In decent shape, EVen. Go for it!
> The Henney would be a great second car for all the enchanting places ya
> hafta go EVery day. Work, bank, library, stores.
Agreed. The Henney is a pretty good EV for the period (1960s). Like the later
Citicars, it is what we call an NEV today -- not fast enough for 70 mph
freeways, but great for urban streets. And, it can be licensed and driven
like a regular car, without the special NEV restrictions.
> A henney could be upgraded with a Zilla or EVen a Alltrax, as the
> voltage is low enough. A PFC Whatever to upgrade charging, or leave it
> alone! It worked as it was built for years, like if it aint broke don't fix
> it. But it IS an OLD car with ride and handling to prove it. 'Nuff sed.
Yes, that sums it up nicely. In a way, it's a shame to modify one, since the
old system is either working or can be easily fixed. Most of the new stuff
that goes into today's EVs doesn't have a prayer of still working when it's
as old as the Henney.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was originally looking for a low priced EV for just commuting back and
> forth to work 0 - 45 MPH, 12 - 15 miles total per day. To someone like me,
> and others in the same situation, these kits look like a "good deal" at
> first... And, maybe to some people under certain conditions and
> circumstances, they will produce an EV that the person may be able to
> use on a limited basis. But, you must be fully aware of the conditions under
> which some of the range claims are made...
A good summary. These are basically NEV kits for building Neighborhood
Electric Vehicles, good for low speeds and not freeway driving.
> Using:
> 30 V, 400 A starter generator
> 12 - 16 batteries (T105s)
> [light] weight car, but not necessarily aerodynamic
> 4 speed manual with clutch
> What I would expect in real world conditions:
> Speed: 35 MPH realistically.
> Range: 20 miles on a good day realistically.
> Efficiency: 60 - 65% realistically including loses.
> Acceleration: Slow as a fully loaded school bus
> You will need to rev the motor prior to take off
I'd say your estimates are reasonably accurate, though a bit on the
pessimistinc side. My first EV had a 30v 500amp aircraft generator; slightly
bigger than the one here. But it was also a 1974 Datsun pickup; fairly small
and light, but not as light or aerodynamic as small car. I had twelve 6v golf
cart batteries, which is a rather light pack. I ran it with a 36v/72v
contactor controller, and the original 4-speed manual transmission.
Top speed was about 55 mph. Range was 20-30 miles, depending on speed and
driving style. Accelleration was about the same as the stock 4-cyl 1800cc
engine; but it drew 500-1000 amps from the poor batteries to do it.
Efficiency was lower than modern motors (it took two automotive heater blower
motors to cool it), though the only other consequence was a 10-20% loss of
range compared to what I could have gotten with a better motor. It was my
daily commuter for 2 years, doing 5 miles each way to work. The batteries
lasted 2 years, by which time they were murdered from newbie abuse and could
no longer get me to/from work.
I think John Wayland had a similar experience with his first EV, a Datsun 1200
sedan. A 30v starter-generator and pack of 6v floodeds is a crude, but
workable way to make your first EV.
My view is that such vehicles are cheap and simple, and work well enough to be
usable. And, they *teach* you a lot about EVs; enough so your *next* EV will
be a lot better. Consider them an EV college course on wheels!
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Lee Hart wrote:
My first EV had a 30v 500amp aircraft generator;
slightlybigger than the one here. But it was also a 1974 Datsun pickup; fairly small
and light, but not as light or aerodynamic as small car. I had twelve 6v golf
cart batteries, which is a rather light pack. I ran it with a 36v/72v
contactor controller, and the original 4-speed manual transmission.
Top speed was about 55 mph. Range was 20-30 miles, depending on speed and
driving style. Accelleration was about the same as the stock 4-cyl 1800cc
engine; but it drew 500-1000 amps from the poor batteries to do it.
Efficiency was lower than modern motors (it took two automotive heater blower
motors to cool it), though the only other consequence was a 10-20% loss of
range compared to what I could have gotten with a better motor. It was my
daily commuter for 2 years, doing 5 miles each way to work. The batteries
lasted 2 years, by which time they were murdered from newbie abuse and could
no longer get me to/from work.
I think John Wayland had a similar experience with his first EV, a Datsun 1200
sedan. A 30v starter-generator and pack of 6v floodeds is a crude, but
workable way to make your first EV.
Yes, Lee, you remember correctly. At the Plasma Boy Racing video page,
towards the end of the selections one can find and download a video from
1984 of Blue Meanie, when it was motivated by a surplus aircraft
starter/generator, model 2CM77.
The 30V 500 amp generator (same rating as Lee's) was force-fed 48V
through a three step contactor speed controller I scrapped together, and
like Lee said, 1000 amps was a common battery discharge! Far lighter
than Lee's Datsun pickup (2170 lbs. curb weight as a gasser) with 12
golf car batteries, my little Datsun 1200 sedan (1587 lbs. curb weight
as a gasser) with just 8 golf car batteries weighed maybe 1800 lbs. and
would smoke the back tires. It could hit 70+ mph on a straightaway (I
was clocked on radar at 81 mph on a slightly downhill run). At 1984 SEVA
Long Distance Rally, the 48V Meanie ran 52 miles on just 8 golf car
batteries, though admittedly, we went a tepid 35 mph for the test loop.
I out-did Lee by destroying the flooded 6 volters in just 6 months,
blowing one of them up in a dramatic explosion that blew the car's back
seat off its mounts! The next set of 8 floodies was treated a little
better, but still, with my regular 'demonstrations' of electric power,
I ruined those in a little over a year. The advent of powerful AGMs,
especially the Optimas, was a godsend to an addicted amphead like me!
My view is that such vehicles are cheap and simple, and work well enough to be
usable. And, they *teach* you a lot about EVs; enough so your *next* EV will
be a lot better. Consider them an EV college course on wheels!
I agree, though I'd say it's more like a high school shop class on wheels.
See Ya........John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW as I understand it the moon is slowly (VERY slowly) moving away from
the earth. Something like an inch further away every year.
Unless it reaches an equilibrium point, I supose that means that evenually
the moon will escape from it's orbit around earth.
As for tides, I believe they are slowly reducing the rate of the earths
rotation. Eventually the earth's rotation will be reduced to one
revolution per year and will end up with one face locked towards the sun
at all times.
Of course both of these events are many, many, milenia in the future.
> I got a call from a "gen on a wheel " and as I have free miniunits at
> night
> , I spent some time talking about power and what happens when it goes from
> one state to another. I pointed out that almost all power can be traced
> back
> to light from the sun . He added that we do get some light for the moon ,
> at
> that point I realized that my idea that almost all power came for the sun
> was wrong , the moon by changing the tieds was also producing alot of
> power
> on earth . Here is a kind of power that is not related to the sun
> (fusion)
> at all . All the water that is being moved as the moon orbites the earth
> is
> power ! somhow I'd never though of the moon being an energy sourse , How
> much energy is the planet receiving from the moom each day as the water
> in
> the oceans goes up and down . This realy got me thinking about the power
> we experance from the moon , it moves alot of water each day as it spins
> around the earth but what effect dose this have on the moon, ? where is
> all
> this power comming from ? If the moon was revovling around the earth at
> just the right speed to allways stay in orbit , will it not keep
> revolving
> forever, lifting the ocean water many feet everday.
> Steve Clunn
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<sigh>
The gentleman stated that he was running the motor at 24V (IIRC)
Granted high speed mods will improve your efficiency IF you run a higher
voltages, but they don't improve efficiency at 24V.
Sheesh, so much for trying to keep answers short, sweet and to the point.
> Regarding ETEK efficiency it was stated:
>
>> Simple mods to allow it to survive higher RPMS will
>> have no effect on efficiency.
>
> Well let's see:
> * power loss is primarily due to heat, which is R*I^2 loss.
> * power delivered is torque times speed (Pm = T * w )
>
> First order, for a given current and once equilibrium is established, the
> torque and power loss remains constant, regardless of RPM. This means
> that
> the greater the speed or voltage available (or tolerable), the more the
> efficiency increases for the ETEK. The ETEK motor curves support this by
> showing efficiency at peak power increasing with motor voltage and RPM.
>
>>From a simplified model view,
>
> eff = Pout/Pin
> Pout = T * w ~ Kt * Im * w
> Pin = Vm * Im ~ (Kb*w + Im*R)* Im
> Kt = Kb
>
> eff ~ (Kt*w)/(Kb*w+Im*Rm)
> = 1/(1+Im*Rm/(Kt*w))
> = 1/(1+Ki/w) ; Ki = Im*Rm/Kb ~ constant for given Im, Rm, Kb
> = w/(w+Ki)
> ==> 1 as w increases!
>
> Again, that's first order and doesn't include magnetic core, windage and
> other losses.
>
> So it is indeed arguably correct that simple changes in strength to allow
> the ETEK's rotor to handle higher voltage and higher continuous speed WILL
> increase the efficiency. It's not a linear equation, but unless you've
> modeled the other losses, it's hard to argue that increasing the speed
> will
> not increase the efficiency.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
> (cruising 6knots with 5.4kw (150amps, 36v) ETEK power)
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's actually a lossy element of gravitational coupling, and it has an
equal and opposite reaction on the moon. The coupling means the moon is
picking up momentum as the earth loses it. It boggles my mind that the
masses are so high that sloshing the entire ocean up and down has so
little effect on the bodies' momentums.
While *almost* all energy on the earth ultimately comes from the sun,
there are a few other sources, tidal being one. Geothermal is another.
The planet does radiate more heat than it takes in from the sun so we
know there is an energy source at the earth's core. In fact we have no
real information on what the earth's core even does but it's believed to
be nuclear. Man-made nuclear reactions are of course also not derived
from the sun.
An interesting case is extremophile organisms around volcanic vents deep
in the ocean. They rely on heat from the vent and digest sulfur
compounds emitted by the vent. They don't consume biomass dropped from
sunlight-driven plants or animals from above and don't use oxygen
created by sunlight-driven photosynthesis. As such they are one of the
few forms of life which can clearly be said to be completely independent
of the sun for energy.
Danny
Mark Fowler wrote:
See Wikipedia for a good illustrated description of the physics behind
earth's tides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tides
While the mass of the moon makes the oceans slosh into tide shapes (high
at 0 and 180 degs from the moon, low at 90 and 270 degs) it is the
earth's rotation relative to the moon that makes the tides go up and
down.
(If the earth rotated once every 28 days or so, so that the moon was
always above the same point on the earth, the tides would be stuck.)
Anyway, it is the tides going up and down that allows us to extract
energy from them, so it is really the earth's rotation providing the
energy.
As we remove this energy, the earth slows down a tiny little bit.
Scary huh? :-) (After a couple of billion years it might make a
measurable difference.)
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having blown up my motor I find myself once again entertaining
alternatives in the drive configuration.
A 300zx is an independent rear wheel drive beast.
assuming I stay with series DC
option 1 is to replace the warp 9 I blew up, that is the default,
quickest, probably chaepest
Option 2 is a siamese 8 in the tunnel eliminating the tranny but
using the stock rear end with a shortened driveline.
Option 3 is more radical
a pair of 8" in the "gone postal" configuration with a
shorter and longer box that would use the existing half shafts.
The motors would be sitting where the gas tank was, cool.
Option 2 with only a zilla 1K would probably not blow up the rear
end; Hey Jim, Are these available? how much?
Option 3 could be stronger, enough so that a zilla 2K may be a good
upgrade in the future?
both options 2 and 3 would allow the under hood to be organized
better. perhaps a dummy floor for a suitcase sized "trunk"
they also eliminate clutch and tranny.
Would there be a significant change + or - in efficiency using 2 8"
s over 1 9" and the stock gearbox?
This would require reversing contactors so would I limit or avoid
brush advance?
thoughts?
ps I am not entertaining AC or Sep-ex for this conversion because I
already have the zilla.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lemco can supply silver brushes.
They add 1-2 % percentage points to the efficiency but have shorter
life at high current.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:17:09 -0700 (MST)
Subject: RE: Modifying an E-tek motor
<sigh>
The gentleman stated that he was running the motor at 24V (IIRC)
Granted high speed mods will improve your efficiency IF you run a higher
voltages, but they don't improve efficiency at 24V.
Sheesh, so much for trying to keep answers short, sweet and to the
point.
Regarding ETEK efficiency it was stated:
Simple mods to allow it to survive higher RPMS will
have no effect on efficiency.
Well let's see:
* power loss is primarily due to heat, which is R*I^2 loss.
* power delivered is torque times speed (Pm = T * w )
First order, for a given current and once equilibrium is established,
the
torque and power loss remains constant, regardless of RPM. This means
that
the greater the speed or voltage available (or tolerable), the more
the
efficiency increases for the ETEK. The ETEK motor curves support
this by
showing efficiency at peak power increasing with motor voltage and
RPM.
From a simplified model view,
eff = Pout/Pin
Pout = T * w ~ Kt * Im * w
Pin = Vm * Im ~ (Kb*w + Im*R)* Im
Kt = Kb
eff ~ (Kt*w)/(Kb*w+Im*Rm)
= 1/(1+Im*Rm/(Kt*w))
= 1/(1+Ki/w) ; Ki = Im*Rm/Kb ~ constant for given Im, Rm, Kb
= w/(w+Ki)
==> 1 as w increases!
Again, that's first order and doesn't include magnetic core, windage
and
other losses.
So it is indeed arguably correct that simple changes in strength to
allow
the ETEK's rotor to handle higher voltage and higher continuous speed
WILL
increase the efficiency. It's not a linear equation, but unless
you've
modeled the other losses, it's hard to argue that increasing the speed
will
not increase the efficiency.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
(cruising 6knots with 5.4kw (150amps, 36v) ETEK power)
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plasma Boy wrote:
Looks like the '06 electric drag racing year's going to be a hoot! Now, if
I can only talk Shawn and the crew to head west this year to the
first NEDRA nationals at PIR!
Hi John. Is this inked? At PIR? What date?
And... who is gonna be the new NEDRA leader?
That be you? :^D
Cya
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Thanks for all the good info. Not only is my
pocketbook straining, but my understanding as well.
I'm a newbie to this whole field and hope I can
acquire parts that will more or less let me 'plug and
play'. However, as I discover the need for these
instruments, I'll know what to look for.
Thanks
Ken
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 11:58:40 -0800 (PST), Ken
> Albright
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >I beginning to collect tools for my conversion
> project
> >(the whole reason for any project, right?). One is
> the
> >multimeter. Besides DCV to 2 or 3 decimal places,
> what
> >else do I need? Any recommended brands/models?
>
> There is basically Fluke and the rest of the random
> data generators.
> yeah, they're expensive but worth every penny.
>
> I highly, highly recommend a Fluke 87 digital
> multimeter. This
> contains just about everything you need other than
> an actual scope to
> work on industrial electronics, which is what you're
> actually doing.
> The usual volts, amps, ohms plus frequency, period,
> duty cycle and a
> bunch more. The frequency measurement function is a
> high speed low
> frequency high resolution one. It'll read 60.00 hz
> to two digits
> several times a second.
>
> I'd grab a couple or more of the lower end of the 8x
> Fluke series.
> These will be simple DVMs but they're accurate and
> only moderately
> priced.
>
> Do NOT waste your money on Chicom made crap,
> regardless of the brand
> name affixed. I have years of metrology experience,
> including running
> a government calibration lab. I also have a
> calibration bench (Fluke,
> natch!) in my lab and I've tested hundreds of
> meters. The ChiCom junk
> is just that. It'll have you chasing your tail
> trying to figure out
> anomalous readings. I've seen the display change a
> whole volt on the
> 20 volt scale simply by warming the meter 20
> degrees.
>
> To go with that I recommend one of the Tek handheld
> digital scopes,
> one of the THS or TPS series. In the scope world,
> there is Tek and
> everyone else. If you can't save the jack for a
> Tek, then a distance
> second is the FlukeScope series. I have a
> FlukeScope and have used a
> Tek THS extensively. There is no comparison. Tek
> tends to understate
> their products' capabilities. Take to the bank
> every feature they
> describe for their scopes.
>
> If you can't afford new, either a used Tek digital
> storage scope or a
> Tek analog storage scope is a distant substitute. A
> great place to
> get top notch, refurbished and calibrated used
> scopes is Bob Garcia in
> Marietta, GA. 770 977 5701 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Bob is legendary
> around the Southeast in nerd circles. He's a
> retired Tek design
> engineer who buys, refurbs and resells almost
> exclusively Tek scopes.
> It's a hobby for him so his prices are VERY good.
> He hits all the
> hamfests within about 200 miles of his home so if
> you're in this area,
> you can meet and greet. The Lawrenceburg 'Fest is
> coming up in a
> couple of weeks in Atlanta.
>
> You'll need at least one pulse generator.
> Hewlett-Packard is my
> choice for used gear and Wavetek for new. The
> Wavetek stuff is not
> nearly the quality of HP stuff but it's affordable.
> Forget B&K and
> the other hobbyist brands.
>
> A universal timer/counter is nice, though if you get
> a Fluke 87, it'll
> handle most frequency and period measuring
> functions.
>
> For voltage and current measuring, I suggest buying
> some good isolated
> input digital panel meters. These can be had in the
> $25-50 range.
> They are industrial quality and have large enough
> displays to read at
> a distance. They're cheap enough that you can
> scatter 'em around
> freely instead of trying to multi-task one expensive
> DVM.
>
> A few precision power supplies are necessary.
> Again, HP is the best.
> In this area, the hobbyist brands are OK. Still,
> used HP supplies can
> be had for less than the price of a cheap new
> hobbyist brand. My
> largest supply was made in the 50s and used on the
> NASA Gemini program
> and still meets specs - even with 40 year old
> electrolytic caps.
>
> One or more voltage calibrators should be on hand.
> These produce
> highly precise output voltages. They're designed
> for calibrating
> voltmeters and also for supplying precise voltages
> to experiments.
> Fluke and HP are about neck-and-neck in this area.
> Look at Ebay
> #7560499536 for a typical digital unit. I have an
> earlier analog unit
> of early 70s vintage that I picked up for $5 at a
> Hamfest. It STILL
> meets its specifications. I send it off every
> couple of years for an
> NBS (er, NIST) traceable calibration. I then
> calibrate all my other
> meters against it.
>
> Being able to check and calibrate your voltemeters
> is very important
> in order to be able to compare readings taken from
> two different
> meters. Even if they're both off, if they're both
> off the same
> amount, then a difference reading will still be
> accurate.
>
> For non-contact current measurement, I highly
> recommend trying to find
> an old Tong Tester set. Ebay number 7560652121 is
> the kit I have.
> Here is a closeup photo of mine in use:
>
>
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/Photos/Tong_Tester.jpg
>
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/Photos/Tong_Tester_close.jpg
>
> This is the Cadillac of AC/DC clamp meters. It is
> non-electic. It
> works by means of an iron vane attached to the meter
> pointer that is
> attracted by the magnetic field concentrated by the
> jaws. It handles
> AC, DC, distorted waveforms, any frequency up to a
> couple KHZ and
> reads true RMS. It is totally immune to all the
> gremlins that affect
> electronic Hall effect and flux gate meters.
>
> It comes in a kit of interchangeable modules that
> span the range of 50
> amps full scale to (I think) 5000 amps (it might be
> 2000, fuzzy
> memory) full scale. The major thing to watch for is
> a) free needle
> movement in all the modules and b) that the serial
> numbers on all the
> modules and the handle match. These instruments
> were hand-calibrated
> at the factory as a set and a pod from one set won't
> indicate
> correctly in the handle from another.
>
> You can see the little blue dot on mine (with the
> smiley face). Mine
> came surplus from TVA. The dots are how we coded
> pieces of a set so
> that one could match them up at a glance. Every
> piece in a set had
> the same color dot affixed.
>
> If you must go electronic with a clamp meter, F.W.
> Bell makes the
> best. They've discontinued their gun-shaped meter
> but they're widely
> available used. Fluke used to private label this
> meter. Their
> current product is great but more expensive.
>
> Fluke is probably a distant second best. Their low
> end hall effect
> stuff such as the 80i-410 is junk. I've been burned
> more than once.
> The Fluke 33 and 36 AC/DC true RMS units are OK.
> The LH2015 is better
> but a bit pricey.
>
> At least one good non-contact infrared thermometer
> should be on hand.
> Get a good name brand like Raytek. An adjustable
> emissivity control
> is necessary, something many of the lower priced
> ones lack.
>
> One or two Type K thermocouple temperature
> indicators are handy to
> have. TCs can be placed in or cemented to windings,
> brush holders and
> the like to monitor the temperature. I prefer
> dedicated indicators
> over DVMs that happen to read thermocouples. I like
> the LED digital
> panel meters because the bright displays are easy to
> read at a
> distance.
>
> Well, that's a good start. I could list a few more
> things but I bet
> your pocketbook is already straining under the load
> :-)
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
__________________________________
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