EV Digest 4900
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) E-Meter wiring
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Dune Buggy Weight - Ametek-RotronFans
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Another current sensor option
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: E-Meter wiring
by "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Meter wiring
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Riddle me this (newbie) a price point
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Adapter Plate Methods
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Ev convert, me and the car.
by laptop2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Adapter Plate Methods
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Bolt material recommendation
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Another current sensor option
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Used charger - what to look for, what goes wrong
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Motor pics/steel comm?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Stan Helton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Bolt material recommendation
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Bolt material recommendation
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) weight
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Newest Honda hybrid - motor, batts,regen etc details
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: weight
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The best way to save thousands is to replace a large vehicle with
a smaller or less capable one like a bicycle or scooter. Another way
is to replace a late model vehicle with an older one. Installing a drive
system with severely limited range can cut expenses by reducing
travel distances. Building or converting a vehicle with used,
surplus or scrap materals can also save money. When an EV driver
saves money, it's due to some of the things listed here and not due
to an electric drive system.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
Respectfully Tom, that's nonsense. I have saved thousands, and many
others have too. EV cars, trucks and vans CAN be expensive IF your
requirements include high speed and long range, but smaller EV bikes,
scooters, and so forth can provide excellent short range car replacement
duties and will save you tons of money, not to mention the fact that an
EV/human hybrid like an electric bicycle provides healthy benefits as
well.
While I personally champion the smaller EVs, I know of many people who
do short range EV cars on a budget in order to save $$. I think perhaps
the best example of this is Lawrence Rhodes. He keeps a keen eye on the
surplus markets and picks up his EV components for a song, building a
number of very cost effective cars, vans, and so forth.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When doing a cost model, you need to consider all costs. Batteries are only
one. Also $5000 is a too expensive for a small car and some packs can last
up to 7 years.
In general, EVs are not really all that cheap (right now). If you want
cheap, go buy a 3 banger geo metro. Used, you can get them for $2000-4000.
Treat it right it will last a long while. That is how to drive cheaply.
Other cheaper alternatives are scooters, bicycles, running and walking.
That all said, my reasons to convert to an EV are not the cost, it is
because I am sick and tired of polluting and I hate being tied to the whims
of big business and government. An EV **is** clean, **is** recyclable and
**is** independent from oil. Oil based cars are **not**.
Thinking beyond the wallet is a hard thing to do, but there are many more
things to consider than just the personal impact. An EV benefits those
around you, oil based cars do not.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stan Helton
Sent: November 12, 2005 12:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Riddle me this (newbie)....
OK, so I am new to this EV thing, but have wanted to get into it for a long
time. Most of the discussion on this list is over my head, but I'm gaining
slowly...
So here's a stupid question...(and I realize my example is painted with
broad strokes)
If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the battery pack
needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending around $140 a month
on fuel, not including what it costs to charge. Compared to my Honda Civic,
I'd be spending much more on an EV than I would on gas, no?
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I understand
that there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions) and other costs
with ICEs (oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $ standpoint, roughly
speaking, I'm better off with the Honda Civic. Until gas prices hit the
break-even point...
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they last
longer?
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm finally getting my E-Meter installed. I seem to
remember that the sequence in which you connect the
wires can be critical to keeping the smoke where it
belongs. The manual that came with the meter doesn't
make any reference to the order of how things get
connected when.
Thanks,
TiM
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jimmy :-)
I'll have to look up those part numbers at work on
Monday, not sure if they are Ametek or EG&G.
As far as Ametek sponsering EV's, I don't know, the
units I was offering where dumpster diving units (our
stuff is pretty realiable, so a reconned dumpster dive
is substantially better than a Chicom :-).
A standard blower offered by Ametek is 5.7" diameter
and 4" tall, but puts out lots of CFM at a very
respectable pressure. I used 1 5.7" to replace 2
brush blowers on the TEVan to get the same thermal
performance (and this was a 24Vdc blower used on
13.8Vdc).
Rod
--- Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > Jimmy,
> > I noticed Ametek-Rotron as a sponser on your
> > vehicle.
> > Did they contribute a fan or blower? Just
> curious,
> > I
> > work at Ametek and would provide some free parts
> for
> > other EV'rs. I also worked for GE when they where
> > providing 9" motors and EVT15 controls.
>
> Rod,
> I did get EG&G Rotron to sponsor some fans -
> actually
> for the
> CoolFuel Roadtrip. They gave me (2) C011067 12vdc
> fans
> back in 2003. They were just merging with
> Ametek and it was either these fans or (1) c-011339
> blower. They told me these were the only 12v they
> had
> at the time and I needed them quick.
> EG&G also sponsored some 28vdc fans back in '94 or
> '95
> (they had no 12vdc at the time). I use
> these fans in the ghia with a Lambda 28v power
> supply
> I use as a dc to dc converter. In both applications
> I
> use a plenum. The BLDC blowers you mentioned in an
> earlier list look really good and I may try to get
> one
> for my '81 Jet Electrica rebuild. Were these
> blowers
> originally designed by Ametek before they merged
> with
> EG&G?
>
> Ametek-Rotron was really helpful and it is great
> that
> they will sponsor EV'rs, slapping a sticker on the
> car
> is a small price to pay, I am glad to do it.
> The "Voltbuggy" is in the "Cool Fuel Roadtrip"
> episode
> 12, whistling EVT15 and all.
> http://www.ecotrekker.com/
> Jimmy Argon
> "mario"
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Use an AD8551 as pre-amp:
Offset: 1uV (10 uV, max) Thats 10mA resolution WRT to your example.
Drift: 5nV/C (yes, nano)
Digikey: $2.32 for qty 1
Actually my first choice would be to use a chopper op amp such as the
LTC1051 which has the lowest offset and offset drift.
2. Noise levels in an EV are very high. The "DC" current flowing
from the batteries actually has a considerable amount of high
frequency noise that is quite large. So the amplifier needs a
very high resistance to noise.
Assuming you're referring to CMRR: 130dB for AD8551.
It's immaterial since the supply is very easy to filter/regulate.
3. The automotive environment is pretty harsh. There are large
temperature variations, water, dirt, shock and vibration, etc.
Unless you use very stable and accurate parts, the readings will
drift all over the place.
Temperature drift is very low for AD8551. Couple the output of this
to a high-quality A/D as Mr. Miller pointed out if floating is a concern.
Very stable/accurate parts aren't hard to come by at all, just not from
Radio Shack. Not tremendously expensive either.
You may have misread me- with the right ADC you don't need an op amp,
nor is it desirable. It's much simpler if you don't use one.
5. Isolation is just another problem to deal with. It's hard to
transfer an analog voltage across an isolation barrier, so most
designers convert to digital, and then transfer this across the
isolation barrier.
Hence an isolation amplifier. Best of both worlds: isolated, analog,
and can be used to drive a meter and/or routed to an ADC for data
capture.
If all you're doing is data capture, then by all means, do A/D on the
HV side of the isolation and send serial digital.
I'm with Lee on that one. Powering a performance op amp and bringing in
an expensive and somewhat inaccurate isolation amp is a much less
desirable solution.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hmm I wasn't aware of that. I'm a pretty ignorant newbie to EV's I wired
the meter first then the ground and sensing wires, the last wires I hooked
up were the power wires to the 12v battery. It's working fine. Yesterday
I replaced the battery pack and just as I finished I noticed the E meter
reading +1000 and all lit up... I had forgotten to disconnect it from the
12v battery. After hooking up the new pack the e-meter still read 1000
and wouldn't answer to any button pushes. disconnecting it from the 12v
battery and reconnecting straightened it out and everything is fine once
again. so if mine could survive all that...
Are you using a pre-scaler and a dc-dc converter? I recall the emeter
manual does have an error in one of it's drawings it shows a wire from the
traction pack negative to the 12v negative. That is WRONG! do no do
that.
I found my original packaging from EV-Parts and they have a corrected
drawing and instructions to not place that wire.
read the directions, apply common sense and check your work, ;^)
Dave
> I'm finally getting my E-Meter installed. I seem to
> remember that the sequence in which you connect the
> wires can be critical to keeping the smoke where it
> belongs. The manual that came with the meter doesn't
> make any reference to the order of how things get
> connected when.
>
> Thanks,
>
> TiM
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken, you bring up some quite valid points. I just posted my note about EVs
not really be cheaper, without reading this info.
My note is within the context of an "electric car conversion" and not so
much scrounging the majority of parts.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: November 12, 2005 4:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
> I believe that very few people ever save a dime by owning and
> operating an EV.
Respectfully Tom, that's nonsense. I have saved thousands, and many others
have too. EV cars, trucks and vans CAN be expensive IF your requirements
include high speed and long range, but smaller EV bikes, scooters, and so
forth can provide excellent short range car replacement duties and will save
you tons of money, not to mention the fact that an EV/human hybrid like an
electric bicycle provides healthy benefits as well.
While I personally champion the smaller EVs, I know of many people who do
short range EV cars on a budget in order to save $$. I think perhaps the
best example of this is Lawrence Rhodes. He keeps a keen eye on the surplus
markets and picks up his EV components for a song, building a number of very
cost effective cars, vans, and so forth.
Serious drag racers typically invest serious money into their EVs. These
guys are not looking for something cost effective. They are looking for
higher power levels, stronger components, and faster launches. All of these
are factors that you don't HAVE to have in a townie/short trip EV.
You are doing exactly the right thing. Ask around, watch for deals, and
educate yourself to the possibilities and you can build a cost effective,
money saving EV.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tim,
You first connect wires starting with No. 1 and proceed to No. 8 on the meter
first. At the other end of the cable, connected wires starting with No. 1 to
No. 8 wires to devices. If you are using a 12 V optional DC-DC Converter and a
Prescaler or a combination DC-DC Converter and Prescaler, do not connect these
units up to power yet.
After you have completed the wiring, leaving the sense wire fuse out, (wire to
a prescale and/or to No. 4. that comes from the battery pack +), and leave the
+DC 12 volt fuse out, (wire to a DC-DC Converter and/or to No. 5 that comes
from the 12 volt bat. +).
You then first insert the sense wire fuse first and than the 12 v. fuse last.
These fuses should be connected in a smooth motion or you may cause a meter
lockup.
I used a 12 volt switch and a battery back volt switch after the fuse. If you
have to disconnected the main battery connections for any reason, first shut
off the 12 volt power to the meter and than the battery pack sense power to the
meter.
Some times I may forget to disconnect the 12 volt power first, but at times,
this did not effect the meter. If it does, just turn off the 12 volt power
before you reconnected the main battery pack voltage sense.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: TiM M<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 7:18 PM
Subject: E-Meter wiring
I'm finally getting my E-Meter installed. I seem to
remember that the sequence in which you connect the
wires can be critical to keeping the smoke where it
belongs. The manual that came with the meter doesn't
make any reference to the order of how things get
connected when.
Thanks,
TiM
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com<http://mail.yahoo.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lead acid batteries are cheaper than that.
my 40ah excide orbitals(the XCD AGM) were $98 each. 5K would be 51
of them or 2000lbs of lead!
If you look the the list archives there are lots of calcualtions people
have done on there usage, I think it was kind of accepted that at under
$2 a gallon a low power (read forces you to drive effieciently) you
break even. and Around $2.75/gal for the more spirited EV's.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why thanks, we aim to please.
That was an interesting little water jet job, but I have a better
design that I hope to offer for around $50
Stamped and folded top half rivoted togather with a U-Bolt from the
bottom. waiting on a quote. I can find 8" u-bolts still looking for 9"
ubolts or someone with a machine that can make it.
The wings sit directly on the motor mount and an angle allows me to bolt
it in the stock location.
I worry about the long term effects of verticle vibrations on the
threads in the aluminum.
I am kinda leaning towards a dual 9 setup that eliminates the clutch and
tranny. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Couple questions.
Is there a pre-made adapter for a 1976 280z 5 speed manual available
anywhere? I've sent a few emails off but no reply as of yet.
What size motor and voltage would be recommended for this car?
I don't have any large hills nearby and will be city driving 95% of the
time sub 45mph. But I'd like it to hit freeway speeds and climb a hill
if I really needed too.
I haven't torn the car apart yet but the caburators on the v6 ICE are
making this thing top out at 40mph anyway so its about time I convert it.
If this car is a poor choice for a conversion please let me know and I
will just sell it and buy another gas guzzler hehe.
Tnx
Mario
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are looking for rods, u-bolts and the like try Interstate fittings in
the Dallas area. We have them make various grade 8 rods for some of our
products.
Pedroman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:55 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Adapter Plate Methods
Why thanks, we aim to please.
That was an interesting little water jet job, but I have a better design
that I hope to offer for around $50
Stamped and folded top half rivoted togather with a U-Bolt from the bottom.
waiting on a quote. I can find 8" u-bolts still looking for 9" ubolts or
someone with a machine that can make it.
The wings sit directly on the motor mount and an angle allows me to bolt it
in the stock location. I worry about the long term effects of verticle
vibrations on the threads in the aluminum.
I am kinda leaning towards a dual 9 setup that eliminates the clutch and
tranny. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My note is within the context of an "electric car conversion" and not
so much scrounging the majority of parts.
It's a very valid point that many EV conversions are not really
providing cost savings over inexpensive, fuel efficient cars and a lot
of newbies to the EV world don't realize this. I would venture to say
that >most< EVs are probably not saving their owners money, and many
have already pointed out that there are more advantages to an EV than
simply cost savings.
I was just pointing out that it IS possible to get/build a cost
effective EV so long as one shops around the surplus circles, does some
work themselves, or purchases a smaller personal EV. The smaller EVs
definitely seem to have the edge in cost effectiveness right now.
I expect all this will change as more hybrids come to market and more
hybrid EV parts are available from many sources. When the newer
technology components become cheaper thanks to economy of scale in
manufacturing, many more small business models (doing builds and
conversions) become possible and that means cheaper quality EVs for the
masses.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a situation in my truck wherein I have several Heinemann 100 and
150 Amp DC breakers. This is being used at 12 volts so they are easily
within their 125V ratings. Because of mechanical requirements, in a
couple places I can not have the cable lug bolted directly to the lug of
the breaker. I will have a long bolt bolted through the lug on the
breaker, and then out about an inch away, a nut, lockwasher, the cable
lug, another lockwasher, and nut to hold the cable lug. Therefore, all
the current will go through about an inch of the bolt material.
My question is: does anyone have any recommendations for or against any
particular material for the bolt (and other hardware for that matter)?
And any major concerns with the plan?
Thanks
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Use an AD8551 as pre-amp:
Offset: 1uV (10 uV, max) Thats 10mA resolution WRT to your example.
Drift: 5nV/C (yes, nano)
Digikey: $2.32 for qty 1
Actually my first choice would be to use a chopper op amp such as the
LTC1051 which has the lowest offset and offset drift.
Oooh, not to shabby! I'll add that to my list.
Now that I think about it, I think I have one of these in my parts bin,
for use on the (not finished) thermocouple project.
Bit pricey @ $7.50, but the specs are better than the AD8551, which is
also a chopper / auto-zero type.
2. Noise levels in an EV are very high. The "DC" current flowing
from the batteries actually has a considerable amount of high
frequency noise that is quite large. So the amplifier needs a
very high resistance to noise.
Assuming you're referring to CMRR: 130dB for AD8551.
It's immaterial since the supply is very easy to filter/regulate.
3. The automotive environment is pretty harsh. There are large
temperature variations, water, dirt, shock and vibration, etc.
Unless you use very stable and accurate parts, the readings will
drift all over the place.
Temperature drift is very low for AD8551. Couple the output of
this to a high-quality A/D as Mr. Miller pointed out if floating is a
concern.
Very stable/accurate parts aren't hard to come by at all, just not
from Radio Shack. Not tremendously expensive either.
You may have misread me- with the right ADC you don't need an op amp,
nor is it desirable. It's much simpler if you don't use one.
I'd be genuinely interested in an a recommendation for an A/D that can
deal well with the +/- 50mV signal input from a shunt.
5. Isolation is just another problem to deal with. It's hard to
transfer an analog voltage across an isolation barrier, so most
designers convert to digital, and then transfer this across the
isolation barrier.
Hence an isolation amplifier. Best of both worlds: isolated, analog,
and can be used to drive a meter and/or routed to an ADC for data
capture.
If all you're doing is data capture, then by all means, do A/D on the
HV side of the isolation and send serial digital.
I'm with Lee on that one. Powering a performance op amp and bringing
in an expensive and somewhat inaccurate isolation amp is a much less
desirable solution.
Whoa, back up:
ISO124:
Gain error: +/- 0.05% nominal, +/- 0.5% max @ FSR
Nonlinearity: +/- 0.005% nominal, +/- 0.01% max @ FSR
Input offset isn't an issue if you scale the value with a decent inst. amp.
Price: $12 --- well, yeah, it is a bit much for a chip.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<The best way to save thousands is to replace a large vehicle with
a smaller or less capable one like a bicycle or scooter. Another way
is to replace a late model vehicle with an older one. Installing a drive
system with severely limited range can cut expenses by reducing
travel distances. Building or converting a vehicle with used,
surplus or scrap materals can also save money. When an EV driver
saves money, it's due to some of the things listed here and not due
to an electric drive system.>>>
If you're one of the majority that require freeway capabilities, a scooter or
ebike isn't a commuter choice, and if not, a regular bike or walking is the
cheapest alternative. Another example is my wife, whose job is only a mile
away, but will never ride on saddle-type seat (believe me, I've tried a bunch
of models on our bike to no avail), hates the little stand-up scooters, and is
generally too tired to walk home at night, so the Kewet was perfect for in-town
use.
Our town has Avcon connectors all over, so how else can you get free power for
daily commuting?
An NEV might satisfy a lot of folks, and cost much less per mile for
batteries/electricity/parts, but something that hits 40-45mph would be better,
even on surface streets.
Of course, you could just look at expenses, and a dependable beater under $2K
thatgets over 30mpg can't be beat (my Saturn will be on the market in a couple
months, once I'm sure I can get to work consistantly with the Ranger).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stan Helton wrote:
> If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000...
Then you are buying an exotic type of battery, or using an unusually
large number of them! Typical EV batteries cost $40-$120 each, and a
typical EV uses 12 to 24 of them.
> the battery pack needs to be replaced every 3 years...
This depends on how many miles you drove in that 3 years, what kind of
battery you used, and (most importantly) whether the user murdered the
batteries early from abuse.
> then I am spending around $140 a month on fuel.
If it's this much, you're doing something wrong.
An economical EV conversion of your Honda would use about 16 golf cart
batteries. They cost about $50 each, so you'd have $800 into the pack.
It will last about 16k miles, assuming they are not abused. That works
out to about $800/16k = 5 cents a mile for batteries.
The price of electricity varies widely; I pay 6 cents/KWH, but I think
the national average is more like 10 cents/KWH. An EV uses about 0.3
KWH/mile from the AC wall outlet; at 10 cents/KWH you are paying $0.10 x
0.3 KWH/mile = 3 cents a mile for the electricity itself.
So an "economical" EV conversion of your Honda would cost about 8
cents/mile for electricity and batteries.
If your car is averaging 30 mpg, and gas costs $3/gallon, you are now
paying $3/30 = 10 cents a mile for gasoline alone. (This 30 mpg may
sound low, but is probably what the car actually gets on average. Most
people accept the EPA figures which are always high, and never actually
check their mpg except maybe once in a while on a trip). You also need
to add something per mile for routine maintenance and repairs.
So on this basis, an EV *can* be cheaper than an ICE. But as people have
pointed out, this tends to be the exception rather than the rule. Why?
Suppose you decided you want a higher-performance EV conversion. You
would use AGM lead-acids (around $100 each). They also have less
capacity, so you need more of them for the same range; say, 20 batteries
for a total of $2000. They also tend not to last as long; perhaps 10k
miles if you don't abuse them. So now your battery cost is $2000/10k= 20
cents/mile. Electricity cost is unchanged and would still be 3
cents/mile as above.
But then, most beginners don't take very good care of their batteries.
They run the totally dead. They let them sit around dead for days or
even weeks. They buy the cheapest charger they can get, and overcharge
them. This shortens battery life considerable, making your cost per mile
higher.
Also, since it's a hobby, people will buy more expensive things than
they need; for better performance, or looks, or just because they want
to. Sometimes they buy the wrong things, or built things the wrong way
and break them; then have to replace them much earlier than expected,
driving up their repair costs.
I think the bottom line is that EVs can be cheaper than ICEs if you get
everything right. But EVs are usually experiments; you don't get
everything right (at least not the first time! :-) This is where the
higher costs come from.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Albright wrote:
> I have an opportunity to buy a used Russco charger. Is
> it a bad idea to buy a used charger? What goes wrong
> with them? What should I look for?
The Russco is a good charger. If it works, a used one is as good as a
new one. Batteries don't care about the scratches in the case. :-)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Hi All - especialy Jim Husted
Hoicked out my motor & gearbox again today, got it up onto the bench and
got it apart. Took some pics and threw them up onto
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Daihatsu-pics-01 - feel free to
click "add comment".
The motor originally was 45V/4.5hp, totaly enclosed. I have added a blower
and with a Zilla can limit RPM, motor volts and motor amps, so can limit
all the parameters. I'm intending to add a throttle switch and a timer to
use the "valet" mode to drop the amps limit after (maybe 10) seconds of
more than 3/4 throttle to help get going on hills and try and prevent
burning out the motor.
The back of the commutator has a nut up against it. Does this mean it has a
"steel commutator"? [and for that matter, what is the difference between a
steel comm and a normal one?]. Any reccommendations for how high RPMs to
limit to? It is around 4-1/4"/ - 110mm across the comm, and nearly 6" -
150mm diameter of the rotor.
Next thing - the fields are all in series. This will give lots of torque,
but lower RPMs. This is, I feel, the way I'll need it to be.
As usual, any and all comments welcome.
James Massey
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
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Sounds like my preconceptions of cost might be a little on the high side...
On another note, I definitely "get" that there are reasons other than cost to
drive an EV, and I wouldn't be on this list if I didn't. I was trying to
figure out how much this little endeavor is going to cost me and if it's going
to be a practical solution for my commute or just a hobby.
I'm not opposed to spending a little money, but maybe I should be looking into
converting a van for my wife and kids to drive around town in and keep the
Honda for the commute.
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My note is within the context of an "electric car conversion" and not
> so much scrounging the majority of parts.
It's a very valid point that many EV conversions are not really
providing cost savings over inexpensive, fuel efficient cars and a lot
of newbies to the EV world don't realize this. I would venture to say
that >most< EVs are probably not saving their owners money, and many
have already pointed out that there are more advantages to an EV than
simply cost savings.
I was just pointing out that it IS possible to get/build a cost
effective EV so long as one shops around the surplus circles, does some
work themselves, or purchases a smaller personal EV. The smaller EVs
definitely seem to have the edge in cost effectiveness right now.
I expect all this will change as more hybrids come to market and more
hybrid EV parts are available from many sources. When the newer
technology components become cheaper thanks to economy of scale in
manufacturing, many more small business models (doing builds and
conversions) become possible and that means cheaper quality EVs for the
masses.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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At 09:18 PM 12/11/05 -0800, Jim Walls wrote:
I have a situation in my truck wherein I have several Heinemann 100 and
150 Amp DC breakers. <snip> I will have a long bolt bolted through the
lug on the breaker, and then out about an inch away, a nut, lockwasher,
the cable lug, another lockwasher, and nut to hold the cable
lug. Therefore, all the current will go through about an inch of the bolt
material.
My question is: does anyone have any recommendations for or against any
particular material for the bolt (and other hardware for that matter)? And
any major concerns with the plan?
Hi Jim
150A rear-connected fuse holders use 5/16" threaded brass rod to make the
connection through the back of the fuse holder to the contact block for the
clip. It works for all the fuse manufacturers. If you want to minimise heat
generation, go up to 1/2" (used on 200A fuse holders).
Regards
James
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Ummm ... Brass? High copper content.
Jim Walls wrote:
I have a situation in my truck wherein I have several Heinemann 100
and 150 Amp DC breakers. This is being used at 12 volts so they are
easily within their 125V ratings. Because of mechanical requirements,
in a couple places I can not have the cable lug bolted directly to the
lug of the breaker. I will have a long bolt bolted through the lug on
the breaker, and then out about an inch away, a nut, lockwasher, the
cable lug, another lockwasher, and nut to hold the cable lug.
Therefore, all the current will go through about an inch of the bolt
material.
My question is: does anyone have any recommendations for or against
any particular material for the bolt (and other hardware for that
matter)? And any major concerns with the plan?
Thanks
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
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Hi folks!
Working on our second EV and kind of going crazy stripping things out
(fun!). Pulled out the dash, cleaning up wiring, reducing
weight...just curious how far to go.
There's a material stuck to the body metal in the passenger
compartment, painted tar is what it looks like. I've seen it on all
cars that I've worked on and never given it much thought. Someone
left a comment saying that it is sound deadening material, which
sounds plausible.
Any reason to keep it? I hate rattles and all, but this EV is for
short commutes only and most likely won't even go on the short
stretch of interstate we have. Round trip to work is 8 miles,
twelve if I stop to get donuts.
There's a picture of the cleared area here:
http://www.evconvert.com/eve/weighty-matters
Any other weight reduction tips?
Thanks!
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
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This is a recent article that has some details about the Honda
(electric) motor, batt pack, etc. Thought some here might be
interested... some marketing and spin I suppose, but a few numbers.
Tks
lOcK
Toronto
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
Newest Honda hybrid boasts best performance yet
By RICHARD RUSSELL
Thursday, November 10, 2005
Posted at 8:59 AM EST
Honda was the first manufacturer to make a gasoline-electric hybrid
available for public consumption in North America -- the 1999 Insight.
Subsequent advances resulted in the 2003 Civic Hybrid and the 2005
Accord Hybrid. The fourth-generation system appears in the new 2006
Civic Hybrid, bringing improvements in both fuel mileage and
performance.
The newest Honda hybrid bristles with technology, including advances in
the gasoline engine, electric motor, continuously variable automatic
transmission, integrated motor assist, regenerative braking system and
battery pack.
The engine: The new 1.3-litre i-VTEC engine is a very special and
highly efficient little unit. The engineers worked overtime on issues
such as volumetric efficiency, pumping losses, combustion efficiency
and component weights.
It produces 93 horsepower and 89 lb-ft of torque. Thanks to variable
valve timing and cylinder management that can deactivate all four
cylinders during deceleration, it uses less fuel.
Electric motor: The 15-kilowatt electric motor is the most powerful
Honda has produced for a hybrid vehicle. Thanks to a new method of
construction and a more powerful magnet, torque output has been
increased 30 per cent, horsepower 46 per cent and efficiency by 3 per
cent.
The combined output of the gas engine and electric motor is 115
horsepower, up from 93 in the previous version.
CVT: The continuously variable automatic transmission has been
extensively modified. It offers a wider ratio spread for improved
acceleration and lower engine rpm at speed. Internal friction has been
reduced, as have oil pumping losses. It is capable of handling more
torque, yet is more compact.
Battery: The 158-volt nickel metal hydride battery pack features new
technology that lowers internal resistance and provides 27 per cent
more output power. It can recharge 14 per cent faster and takes up 12
per cent less space.
Regenerative braking: The regenerative braking system, which captures
energy during braking to help recharge the battery pack, features a new
hydraulic booster for better control of pressure and a greater degree
of freedom in engine control, resulting in increased fuel economy
through what Honda calls "co-operative regenerative braking."
The system directs braking power between the hydraulic brakes and the
electric motor, which acts as a generator to provide significant
braking resistance. Because of less reliance on the hydraulic brakes
and reduced engine pumping losses through cylinder deactivation,
electrical regeneration is up 170 per cent from the previous version.
IPU: The brains of Honda's IMA (integrated motor assist) system
controlling all this is the intelligent power unit (IPU). The new
version is 13 per cent smaller and weighs less than before because some
parts have been modified and others combined.
Like all gas-electric hybrids, the gas engine is the primary source of
motivation. An electric motor is used for additional power and
electricity regeneration.
The 2006 Civic Hybrid operates in gas and electric mode when getting
under way from rest. During gentle acceleration, the gas engine
provides power. At low cruising speeds, the electric motor operates
alone -- a new capability for the Civic Hybrid.
If more power is required, the gas engine kicks in and, under full
throttle conditions, the gas engine switches to a different camshaft
profile for more power.
At higher cruising speeds, the gas engine operates alone and during
deceleration all four cylinders are deactivated (compared with three in
the previous engine) and the electric motor operates as a generator to
recharge the battery pack.
At rest the gas engine shuts off, restarting instantly when the brake
pedal is released.
All of these changes result in fuel economy ratings of 4.7 litres per
100 km in the city and 4.3 on the highway, compared with 4.9 and 4.6 in
the previous Civic Hybrid.
But perhaps just as significant are the performance gains. The time it
takes to accelerate from rest to 100 km/h has dropped from more than 13
seconds in the old model to just over 10 seconds. Wide-open throttle
acceleration from 80-120 km/h has dropped from 8.4 seconds to 7.3.
Because there have been complaints that hybrids have not been
delivering the mileage promised by government ratings, Honda engineers
took the car on a 4,000-km "caravan" route across much of the United
States. The new Civic Hybrid averaged 43.6 miles per gallon (5.39
litres/100 km).
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Original URL here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051110/WHHOW10/TPEntertainment/
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I'd leave it in, as you'll still want to deaden road
noise and the sound of your shocks moving;
transmission whir, etc.
--- jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi folks!
>
> Working on our second EV and kind of going crazy
> stripping things out
> (fun!). Pulled out the dash, cleaning up wiring,
> reducing
> weight...just curious how far to go.
>
> There's a material stuck to the body metal in the
> passenger
> compartment, painted tar is what it looks like.
> I've seen it on all
> cars that I've worked on and never given it much
> thought. Someone
> left a comment saying that it is sound deadening
> material, which
> sounds plausible.
>
> Any reason to keep it? I hate rattles and all, but
> this EV is for
> short commutes only and most likely won't even go on
> the short
> stretch of interstate we have. Round trip to work
> is 8 miles,
> twelve if I stop to get donuts.
>
> There's a picture of the cleared area here:
> http://www.evconvert.com/eve/weighty-matters
>
> Any other weight reduction tips?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Jerry
>
> http://www.evconvert.com/
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
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