EV Digest 4901
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ev convert, me and the car.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Bolt material recommendation
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Ev convert, me and the car.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Motor pics/steel comm?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: weight
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Bolt material recommendation
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Wheel motors
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Another current sensor option
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Bolt material recommendation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: weight
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Tacho sender ideas
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wheel motors
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Wheel motors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Good price for Deka 8G27s?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Tacho sender ideas
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) How to tell is ICE is going
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: very weak demand for Toyota and Honda EVs?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Air Conditioning non-operational on Force
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Tacho sender ideas
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
As always, "it depends".
If you use Hawker AGM, you'll have plenty of room in
the car with such a good aero profile, and low,
sloping hood. You'll use lots of them, they'll be
expensive, and you'll still have a short range. If
you try floodeds, you'll have more lead and range, but
you will be driving with the hood up to do it! (;-p
And of ccourse, if you're using LiPo, you'll stick
them all in the rear and not worry about the space!
As a newbie, I'd choose a style that people had
already done.
peace,
--- laptop2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Couple questions.
>
> Is there a pre-made adapter for a 1976 280z 5 speed
> manual available
> anywhere? I've sent a few emails off but no reply as
> of yet.
>
> What size motor and voltage would be recommended for
> this car?
> I don't have any large hills nearby and will be city
> driving 95% of the
> time sub 45mph. But I'd like it to hit freeway
> speeds and climb a hill
> if I really needed too.
>
> I haven't torn the car apart yet but the caburators
> on the v6 ICE are
> making this thing top out at 40mph anyway so its
> about time I convert it.
> If this car is a poor choice for a conversion please
> let me know and I
> will just sell it and buy another gas guzzler hehe.
>
> Tnx
> Mario
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A flooded lead acid pack won't cost you $5000. Maybe $1200.
About 10 years ago I did a study of costs between my converted Escort
and a gas car. I bought a KW hour meter from KTA and measured the
electricity it was costing to charge. I saved all the receipts for the
conversion and batteries and added up all the costs over a period of
time. I then went and got some costs from AAA about costs for running a
gas car. I created a table comparing the costs between the two and
figuring in with the cost of batteries and charging the EV came out
about 1.2 cents per mile cheaper. Now that was when gas was a $1
something and I had my first battery pack for 4 years.
Costs of flooded lead acid batteries hasn't increased as fast as gas,
if at all, but I imagine if I did all that figuring again with gas
prices that have doubled within that time the electric would be even
cheaper.
If you go with more expensive NiMH batteries, the cost per pack would
be more but they should give you longer range and last longer so the
cost should be about the same. If EVs were mass produced on a grand
scale, including the batteries I bet the costs would be alot less then
gas. Now of course charging costs would very according to your utility.
A lot of ifs in this scenario, but in my real-life scenario the costs
were cheaper.
One thing to consider, if you have a gas car as well, driving the EV as
much as you can is really going to save money since you won't be
filling the gas car as much. I'm proud to say even with Katrina I never
paid any more then $3.00 for gas for my van which I fill up maybe once
a month since I drive the EV more and use the van for just hauling
stuff and long trips. Plus I have 40,000 miles on my EV so that is
40,000 miles less wear on my gas van. I pay cash for gas so saving $50
a week on gas a week is saving me a ton of money. I have cash on hand
to spend on other things.
So I'm sure you are going to get several responses to the contrary that
"no one" is saving money owning an EV yet. Those of us who are driving
simple flooded lead acid battery EVs with the basic components are
saving quite a bit.
Collectively EVs owned within the EAA have well over a million miles.
The savings are collectively in the millions of dollars as well. We are
quietly making an impact.
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
National Electric Drag Racing Association
http://www.nedra.com
Subject: Riddle me this (newbie)....
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I
understand that there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions)
and other costs with ICEs (oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $
standpoint, roughly speaking, I'm better off with the Honda Civic.
Until gas prices hit the break-even point...
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they
last longer?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Lee Hart wrote:
If your car is averaging 30 mpg....This 30 mpg may
sound low, but is probably what the car actually gets on average. Most
people accept the EPA figures which are always high
Lee, gottta call you on this. It's not like you to make sweeping
statements like this. EPA figures 'always' high?
My Honda Insight was EPA rated at 61 mpg city, 70 mpg highway.
Forgetting 'playing the hybrid game' of trying to ultimately squeeze out
the very best mpg from it by using certain techniques and by driving a
little slower than everyone else (this will lead to atmospheric mpg
numbers as high as 92.3 mpg), it consistently delivers in the mid to
high 60's in town, and an easy 70+ mph at 75 mph cruising on the freeway
system. The only mod to this car in regards to improving mpg efficiency,
is running its LRR tires at a higher 50 psi. That said, dropping the
tire pressure lower to the factory psi specs results in mpg numbers
right at or a bit higher than the EPA figures.
Just yesterday, my wife and I were out driving around here and there in
the Insight. The car had logged 575 miles of nearly all city driving on
this tank, and, I was accelerating hard on this day, enjoying the car. I
checked the average mpg for those 575 miles and it reported 66.3 mpg. On
a less than stellar road trip to Vancouver BC and back to Portland where
we had to drive fast through cold temps and lots of heavy rain, using
the AC in the defroster mode and pushing copious amounts of water
(always lowers the mpg), we traveled more than 700 miles and still had
nearly two gallons in our 10.6 gallon tank left over...the computer said
we had averaged 71 + mpg (going from memory here), a figure accurately
backed up by the amount of refill gallons, too. EPA said the car would
get 70 mph.
Our trusty all wheel drive Subaru Legacy wagon is now 13 years old and
still runs as new...doesn't use a drop of oil between oil changes and
with 135k on the clock, still passes DEQ with readings that barely move
the gauges. It's EPA ratings were 21 mpg city, 29 mpg highway. We get 21
mpg in town, and on road trips (these happen rarely now that we have the
Insight to drive instead) the car gets between 28-31 mpg driving with
the traffic flow...not cruising in the slow lane. Driving in snow when
the all wheel drive digs in and that wonderful flat four works a little
harder, yes, it gets about 18 in the city, but that's the only deviation
from the EPA numbers we've seen.
I know, I know, many vehicles don't get their EPA figures, but to say
EPA figures are always high, is simply not true.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen two materials used in large fuse holders and shunts: Stainless
Steel and Brass. I also see aluminum used quite often in electrical panels.
Some factors I consider when looking at these materials are:
- relative electrical conductivity
Copper 100
Al 59
Brass 28
Stainless 2-15
Silver 106
- heat expansion differences between metals
- potential for corrosion
- mechanical strength for the application
Hopefully Lee or Victor will chime in, as they are EEs, and this is their
field.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Walls
Sent: November 12, 2005 9:19 PM
To: EV list
Subject: Bolt material recommendation
I have a situation in my truck wherein I have several Heinemann 100 and 150
Amp DC breakers. This is being used at 12 volts so they are easily within
their 125V ratings. Because of mechanical requirements, in a couple places
I can not have the cable lug bolted directly to the lug of the breaker. I
will have a long bolt bolted through the lug on the breaker, and then out
about an inch away, a nut, lockwasher, the cable lug, another lockwasher,
and nut to hold the cable lug. Therefore, all the current will go through
about an inch of the bolt material.
My question is: does anyone have any recommendations for or against any
particular material for the bolt (and other hardware for that matter)?
And any major concerns with the plan?
Thanks
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it would make a great conversion.
I have to ask what tranny you have, since they didn't come with a
V6(SOHC inline6 2.8liter) could yours has been changed?
If that was a typo
looking at http://www.geocities.com/~z-car/specs/ it is lighter than
my 300 zx by 205 lbs which may still be considered a little heavy except
I think you'll find that motor was pretty heavy (I can't find the info,
but on one web site they say 3lbs more than the V6 putting it at about
500lbs!
I was ok with the acceleration of my 300zx with 17 orbitals and a zilla
1k and a warp 9 in 2nd gear but not impressed, yours would be quicker.
As a matter of fact I was surprised to burn rubber in 2nd from a
standing stop with 750 lbs of bats over rear axle.
Have you considered a dual 8" set up like white zombie? It won't do
much in the 1/4 with only a zilla 1K but the math says 2 motors gives
enough torque in series mode to lauch same as 2nd gear and then it
shifts electrically. The benifit to this is no clutch adapter, no
tranny adapter, just go have a driveline made/modified and some mounts.
the nissan tranny was just over 100 lbs and the 8" motor weights close
to that so, not bad
disclaimer
Please look into the archives and view the discussions on the pro's
and cons of having a clutch. we discuss that regularly and I don't want
to burn up bandwidth.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
YES!, that looks like the "v-ring-style" steel bodied comms, Jim, am I
right? I think that is the type we need in EV's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice web site.
I'd leave the stuff in there. It serves a dual purpose of sound
deadening and as some insulation. The weight is minimal.
John
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 07:34:25 -0500, jerry halstead
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi folks!
>
>Working on our second EV and kind of going crazy stripping things out
>(fun!). Pulled out the dash, cleaning up wiring, reducing
>weight...just curious how far to go.
>
>There's a material stuck to the body metal in the passenger
>compartment, painted tar is what it looks like. I've seen it on all
>cars that I've worked on and never given it much thought. Someone
>left a comment saying that it is sound deadening material, which
>sounds plausible.
>
>Any reason to keep it? I hate rattles and all, but this EV is for
>short commutes only and most likely won't even go on the short
>stretch of interstate we have. Round trip to work is 8 miles,
>twelve if I stop to get donuts.
>
>There's a picture of the cleared area here:
> http://www.evconvert.com/eve/weighty-matters
>
>Any other weight reduction tips?
>
>Thanks!
>
>-Jerry
>
>http://www.evconvert.com/
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a reply to my question, James Massey wrote:
150A rear-connected fuse holders use 5/16" threaded brass rod to make
the connection through the back of the fuse holder to the contact block
for the clip. It works for all the fuse manufacturers. If you want to
minimise heat generation, go up to 1/2" (used on 200A fuse holders).
That was what I had planned on, but it's nice to get a sanity check.
Most of the time, the current will be under 30 amps, and high current
will be limited to short periods of time so I'll stick with the 5/16"
rod. I would assume that using all brass hardware would be preferred to
reduce different thermal expansion rates potentially resulting in things
loosening up over time.
I knew someone on this list could sanity check the plan.
Thanks
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Because of my EV project, i have been asked at work to help on a Hybrid
project and could really use some help.
I know it could be considered a little off-topic because at the moment
it will have to have a generator off the ICE, but the drivetrain is to
be pure electric, a series hybrid.
The goal is to build a show truck for the next SEMA show for this
company http://www.slamspecialties.com.
It is to do the custom bodywork and suspension work the customers do
themselfs only to take it to the next level by partially preserving the
bed, currently they cut out the floor of the bed to allow c-notched
frames and the rear axle to go high enough to sit the truck on the frame.
like so :
http://minitruckzone.tenmagazines.com/gallery/grlluvstoys/82165.jpg
The only way to drive the rear wheels that I can think of in this
scenario is with wheel motors.
I reallize we will need 4 motors to keep the per wheel weight down and
have the power to move a fullsize or midsize pickup.
It would be best if it can still accept rims.
I know someone mentioned a wheel motor source recently, but I just can't
find it.
Any ideas people? thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
>> Use an AD8551 as pre-amp:
>> Offset: 1uV (10 uV, max) Thats 10mA resolution WRT to your example.
>> Drift: 5nV/C (yes, nano)
>> Digikey: $2.32 for qty 1
Danny Miller wrote:
> Actually my first choice would be to use a chopper op amp such as the
> LTC1051 which has the lowest offset and offset drift.
Both approaches work well. A third one is used in the inexpensive multimeters;
they have "auto zero" circuits that short the input between A/D conversions,
read the apparent voltage (which is really the opamp's input error), and
subtract it from the A/D reading.
>>> 2. Noise levels in an EV are very high.
>> Assuming you're referring to CMRR: 130dB for AD8551.
> It's immaterial since the supply is very easy to filter/regulate.
Not when you're dealing with microvolts! The filter circuits are simple in
theory, but tricky in practice. They can require perfectly matched resistors,
capacitors with no dielectric absorbtion, and attention to thermoelectric
effects (small voltages produced when dissimilar metals meet).
The other problem with noise in a high-gain amplifier is that it can drive the
instantaneous input or output voltage outside of its common-mode range.
Suppose your opamp is set to amplify a 50mv signal to 5v (a gain of 100). A
noise pulse over 50mv tries to drive the output past 5v; it clips, and the
true peak is lost. Now the output reads low in the presence of noise.
>>> 3. The automotive environment is pretty harsh.
>> Temperature drift is very low for AD8551.
That's good. But you'll have to keep drift in mind for all your parts.
> Very stable/accurate parts aren't hard to come by at all, just not from
> Radio Shack. Not tremendously expensive either.
Exactly! Garden-variety parts have high drift. Better parts are available for
only a little more money. But you have to specifically *look* for it.
> You may have misread me- with the right ADC you don't need an op amp,
> nor is it desirable. It's much simpler if you don't use one.
I don't know of any affordable ADC that can read a 50mv signal with high
precision. The only ones that do, do so because they have an *internal*
amplifier. An amplifier is virtually mandatory.
>>> 5. Isolation is just another problem to deal with.
>> Hence an isolation amplifier. Best of both worlds: isolated, analog,
>> and can be used to drive a meter and/or routed to an ADC for data
>> capture.
Isolated accurate analog voltage transfer is a harder problem than isolated
digital voltage transfer. Solvable; just harder.
>> If all you're doing is data capture, then by all means, do A/D on the
>> HV side of the isolation and send serial digital.
> I'm with Lee on that one. Powering a performance op amp and bringing in
> an expensive and somewhat inaccurate isolation amp is a much less
> desirable solution.
One other solution that hasn't been discussed; use a voltage-to-frequency
converter chip to convert the shunt voltage into a frequency. Use an
opto-isolator for isolation. Use a frequency-to-voltage converter (often as
simple as a resistor and capacitor) to convert back to voltage on the other
side of the isolation barrier. Now you can use inexpensive DMMs or analog
meters for readout.
I don't mean to discourage people from trying these different solutions. I'm
just trying to alert them to the sorts of problems they may encounter. An
experience analog designer will know solutions for all of them, but a novice
may wonder why his "simple" circuit works so poorly, or needs so many
expensive parts to actually make it work right in the end.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sunday 13 November 2005 12:55 am, Eric Poulsen wrote:
> Ummm ... Brass? High copper content.
There's yellow brass and red brass. Yellow brass is the most common, is easy
to machine, but has about 4 times the resistance of copper. Red brass has a
higher copper content, is harder to machine, but still has 2 times the
resistance of copper.
When people have to use brass for high-current conductors (so it is
machinable, threadable, etc.), they typically use large blocks and huge
bolts. This is to get the cross section up to 2-4 times what it would have
been with copper.
Or, you just put up with the resistance and provide lots of cooling.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> If your car is averaging 30 mpg....This 30 mpg may sound low, but
>> is probably what the car actually gets on average. Most people
>> accept the EPA figures which are always high
John Wayland wrote:
> Lee, gottta call you on this. It's not like you to make sweeping
> statements like this. EPA figures 'always' high?
John, you and I (and most seasoned EVers) are not "most people". :-) We know
how to drive efficiently, and this rubs off on how we drive our ICEs as well.
We probably *do* get the EPA mpg the carmakers advertise.
But all the articles and test surveys I've seen say that *most* people get
LESS than the EPA gas mileage. The error is -10% to -40% depending on
vehicle. That's the simple fact.
Pull out a Consumer's Reports. Try and find a car they tested that did better
than its advertised mpg. Look at their reader's surveys, which also indicate
consistenly lower mpgs.
We have a Prius, and we *do* get the advertised gas mileage. But look at the
Prius mailing lists, and low gas mileage is one of the most frequent
complaints. The difference is not the car; it's how you drive it.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's the Consumer Reports article on how most cars don't get the
mileage that the sticker's advertise:
http://cdn.consumerreports.org/static/0510fue0.html
Lots of info, including a list of the best and worse performers in
various size classes.
On Nov 13, 2005, at 11:51 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
If your car is averaging 30 mpg....This 30 mpg may sound low, but
is probably what the car actually gets on average. Most people
accept the EPA figures which are always high
John Wayland wrote:
Lee, gottta call you on this. It's not like you to make sweeping
statements like this. EPA figures 'always' high?
John, you and I (and most seasoned EVers) are not "most
people". :-) We know
how to drive efficiently, and this rubs off on how we drive our
ICEs as well.
We probably *do* get the EPA mpg the carmakers advertise.
But all the articles and test surveys I've seen say that *most*
people get
LESS than the EPA gas mileage. The error is -10% to -40% depending on
vehicle. That's the simple fact.
Pull out a Consumer's Reports. Try and find a car they tested that
did better
than its advertised mpg. Look at their reader's surveys, which also
indicate
consistenly lower mpgs.
We have a Prius, and we *do* get the advertised gas mileage. But
look at the
Prius mailing lists, and low gas mileage is one of the most frequent
complaints. The difference is not the car; it's how you drive it.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 13, 2005, at 12:12 PM, Neon John wrote:
Nice web site.
I'd leave the stuff in there. It serves a dual purpose of sound
deadening and as some insulation. The weight is minimal.
Thanks, John. And thanks to the folks who emailed directly with the
same suggestion.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I am about to make a tachometer. Well, actually use a frequency to
> voltage
> convertor IC from national, the LM2917. Awesome chip can set the RPM
-snip-
> Only place I can find with access to the motor shaft. I want to use a
> hall
Are you using a flywheel? DOes it still have the ring gear? If so, then
you can mount an electromagnet (steel bar with a coil around it) near, but
not touching the teeth. Energies the coil and you will get pulses on it
when the teeth come near. You might need to amplify the pulses a bit to
feed the LM2917, but then again, you might not.
I don't have enough information with me out here, but I've worked on
machines in the past that used this kind of sensor.
Hmm, you might even be able to recycle a "crankshaft sensor" from a modern
fuel injected engine.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just make it a front wheel drive?
THen you could just use (more or less) standard EV motors and transmission
adapters, etc.
Just a thought.
> Because of my EV project, i have been asked at work to help on a Hybrid
> project and could really use some help.
>
> I know it could be considered a little off-topic because at the moment
> it will have to have a generator off the ICE, but the drivetrain is to
> be pure electric, a series hybrid.
>
> The goal is to build a show truck for the next SEMA show for this
> company http://www.slamspecialties.com.
> It is to do the custom bodywork and suspension work the customers do
> themselfs only to take it to the next level by partially preserving the
> bed, currently they cut out the floor of the bed to allow c-notched
> frames and the rear axle to go high enough to sit the truck on the frame.
>
> like so :
> http://minitruckzone.tenmagazines.com/gallery/grlluvstoys/82165.jpg
>
> The only way to drive the rear wheels that I can think of in this
> scenario is with wheel motors.
> I reallize we will need 4 motors to keep the per wheel weight down and
> have the power to move a fullsize or midsize pickup.
> It would be best if it can still accept rims.
>
> I know someone mentioned a wheel motor source recently, but I just can't
> find it.
>
> Any ideas people? thanks
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff, speak with Unique Mobility (UQM) http://www.uqm.com/
They are working with the military and putting wheel motors in Hummers.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: November 13, 2005 9:36 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Wheel motors
Because of my EV project, i have been asked at work to help on a Hybrid
project and could really use some help.
I know it could be considered a little off-topic because at the moment it
will have to have a generator off the ICE, but the drivetrain is to be pure
electric, a series hybrid.
The goal is to build a show truck for the next SEMA show for this company
http://www.slamspecialties.com.
It is to do the custom bodywork and suspension work the customers do
themselfs only to take it to the next level by partially preserving the bed,
currently they cut out the floor of the bed to allow c-notched frames and
the rear axle to go high enough to sit the truck on the frame.
like so :
http://minitruckzone.tenmagazines.com/gallery/grlluvstoys/82165.jpg
The only way to drive the rear wheels that I can think of in this scenario
is with wheel motors.
I reallize we will need 4 motors to keep the per wheel weight down and have
the power to move a fullsize or midsize pickup.
It would be best if it can still accept rims.
I know someone mentioned a wheel motor source recently, but I just can't
find it.
Any ideas people? thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To convert a car, someone removes the ICE engine, radiator-coolant parts, and
exhaust
parts, and then installs the electric motor, batteries, and electronics. What
goes in can
weigh more than what comes out, so weight distribution, balance, and suspension
and brakes
need to be checked and likely upgraded.
There are (still) no EV cars for sale at the local car dealer. If you want an
EV, and not
a hybrid, then there are converter companies and kits, or completed cars for
sale, or one
can build an EV conversion.
Conversion does cost a bit, and takes some time. Most people's preconceptions
of these
costs are on the high side. See Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator at
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html, See Uve's Battery Pages at
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html.
EV running costs are about a third, or even less. See the Gas/Electric-Vehicle
Cost
Comparison webpage at http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV/cost.php, and
also
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/fuel-economy-1005/overview.htm
for
new car fuel economy, as of 10/2005.
EVs are a bit heavier but not slow. See the National Electric Drag Racers
Association at
http://www.nedra.com/nedra_handbook.html and The Roger Hedlund 100 mph Club,
for racers
who have attained 100 mph plus speeds in the quarter mile.
Steve -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Helton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
> Sounds like my preconceptions of cost might be a little on the high side...
> On another note, I definitely "get" that there are reasons other than cost to
> drive an
EV, and I wouldn't be on this list if I didn't. I was trying to figure out how
much this
> little endeavor is going to cost me and if it's going to be a practical
> solution for my
commute or just a hobby.
> I'm not opposed to spending a little money, but maybe I should be looking into
converting a van for my wife and kids to drive around town in and keep the
Honda for > the
commute.
> Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My note is within the context of an "electric car conversion" and not
> > so much scrounging the majority of parts.
> It's a very valid point that many EV conversions are not really
> providing cost savings over inexpensive, fuel efficient cars and a lot
> of newbies to the EV world don't realize this. I would venture to say
> that >most< EVs are probably not saving their owners money, and many
> have already pointed out that there are more advantages to an EV than
> simply cost savings.
> I was just pointing out that it IS possible to get/build a cost
> effective EV so long as one shops around the surplus circles, does some
> work themselves, or purchases a smaller personal EV. The smaller EVs
> definitely seem to have the edge in cost effectiveness right now.
> I expect all this will change as more hybrids come to market and more
> hybrid EV parts are available from many sources. When the newer
> technology components become cheaper thanks to economy of scale in
> manufacturing, many more small business models (doing builds and
> conversions) become possible and that means cheaper quality EVs for the
> masses.
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the "depends on where you live" should also have "depends on
what you want to drive" added to it.
Where I live we just recently got down to $2.75/gal petro (winter
rates), and next summer is going to be worse, but I have always had
0.06-0.07/kWh elect rates.
If you are looking to drive a nice, shiny, lots-o-plastic newer car with
all of the creature comforts and heavy plush interiors and plenty of
extra power on demand, and like to take long drives in the country, then
you will likely have a hard time saving money with an EV conversion. Now
if you've always liked driving small, fun, simple, zippy,
hardly-any-interior, K.I.S.S. designed machines with little frills that
you can ping around town with, then you would likely find it easy to
save money driving an EV conversion...
...Just a few cents worth from the peanut gallery ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I was researching battery options for my new Solectria Force EV, and noted this
entry in there "past accomplishments" section under "Solectria Sunrise":
> Though the Sunrise is technologically advanced and is ahead of its time,
> Azure Dynamics has postponed its plans to commercialize the Sunrise for
> two main reasons.
..
> Second, the weak demand for pure EVs, due to concerns about range
> limitations, and the continued high cost of advanced batteries, which
> increase ranges, are substantial barriers for the commercialization of
> Sunrise. These issues raise concerns that there will be insufficient
> demand for Sunrise vehicles, which would make it much more difficult for
> us to sell enough Sunrises to justify an investment. In short, at present
> the Sunrise would be too expensive for most people if it were equipped
> with advanced batteries, and it would not have sufficient range to meet
> the market's perceived needs if it were equipped with lead-acid batteries.
> (Note that a lead-acid Sunrise would have a real-world range of 60-80
> miles, and demand has been very weak for the heavily subsidized Toyota and
> Honda EVs equipped with advanced batteries, even though these EVs have
> similar ranges.)
Is this true? I though that Toyota and Honda did not make enough to come
close to demand?
> This demand-side risk has also made it much more
> difficult to convince potential manufacturing partners and investors to
> back the Sunrise.
Interesting.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey,
While looking for the best deal on these batteries, I came across this site:
http://store.yahoo.com/affordablesolar/527.html ($135)
Does this seem like a good deal? It is cheaper then most I've seen.
Also, does anybody know of any other options I should consider while looking
for batteries for a 1997 Solectria Force?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI,
No Not using a flywheel at all. It's a clutchless system. The LM2917 will
take inputs from mv to 28volts. I will prob end up using a small magnet
mounted on the coupling. Just need a good way of adhering it to the
coupling. Might use some araldite and a large cable tie. Don't want to screw
in holes.
Cheers
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: 14 November 2005 07:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tacho sender ideas
> I am about to make a tachometer. Well, actually use a frequency to
> voltage
> convertor IC from national, the LM2917. Awesome chip can set the RPM
-snip-
> Only place I can find with access to the motor shaft. I want to use a
> hall
Are you using a flywheel? DOes it still have the ring gear? If so, then
you can mount an electromagnet (steel bar with a coil around it) near, but
not touching the teeth. Energies the coil and you will get pulses on it
when the teeth come near. You might need to amplify the pulses a bit to
feed the LM2917, but then again, you might not.
I don't have enough information with me out here, but I've worked on
machines in the past that used this kind of sensor.
Hmm, you might even be able to recycle a "crankshaft sensor" from a modern
fuel injected engine.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI All,
I have a general question about the lifespan of ICE's. I want to convert my
Hyundai Excel (after I finish with my Fiat). The engine always had little
power. I find that after four weeks, well between 3-4 weeks, the oil level
dropped from high to low. I pretty much have to use 1 - 1.5 litres of extra
top up oil between my oil changes. I am using thick oil as well. The
mechanical side of the car is in great shape. Very nice to drive and smooth
too.
I think in the past, my dad ran it without oil for a short period because
the oil light failed to go on. And he just serviced it a few weeks back. So
temp rised cause of that.
It's a 91 model. Done 175,000km. Always being regularly serviced. Its got
the oild mitsu lancer engine in it. I know they are renowed for drinking
oil.
Anyone able to give me a rough lifespan on the remaining years left.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick and All,
Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,
I was researching battery options for my new Solectria Force EV, and noted this
entry in there "past accomplishments" section under "Solectria Sunrise":
> Though the Sunrise is technologically advanced and is ahead of its time,
> Azure Dynamics has postponed its plans to commercialize the Sunrise for
> two main reasons.
..
> Second, the weak demand for pure EVs, due to concerns about range
> limitations, and the continued high cost of advanced batteries, which
> increase ranges, are substantial barriers for the commercialization of
> Sunrise.
The only problem building the Sunrise was Fed regs and hassles.
Otherwise the Sunrise was ready to go into low unit propduction, in fact was as
between 6 and 10 of them were built. TPI, the best composite company probably
in the world, built them as they were ordered to and would have built more if
they were ordered but no one wanted to take on the Feds.
I can garrenty you, when someone puts a turnkey, 75-80mph, 70-100
mile range, reasonably priced EV, you will not be able to keep them in stack.
Just look at the Sparrow, even with it's problems, people were standing in line
for yrs to get one.
Now Myer's Motors has doubled their price !!
These issues raise concerns that there will be insufficient
> demand for Sunrise vehicles, which would make it much more difficult for
> us to sell enough Sunrises to justify an investment. In short, at present
> the Sunrise would be too expensive for most people if it were equipped
> with advanced batteries, and it would not have sufficient range to meet
> the market's perceived needs if it were equipped with lead-acid batteries.
There is alway Ni-cad batts for it with about a 150-200 mile
range which for most, would have been enough.
> (Note that a lead-acid Sunrise would have a real-world range of 60-80
> miles, and demand has been very weak for the heavily subsidized Toyota and
> Honda EVs equipped with advanced batteries, even though these EVs have
> similar ranges.)
No, Both were sold/leased out with waiting lists. There are still
lists for used ones coming off lease for the RAV 4 EV. Honda's were crushed,
ect.
With lead batts, the Sunrise would go between 100 and 130 mile range
as much lighter, only 2/3rds, than the EV-1 with almost as good aero. So one
could have 50% battery weight vs high 30's% for the EV-1.
Is this true? I though that Toyota and Honda did not make enough to come
close to demand?
> This demand-side risk has also made it much more
> difficult to convince potential manufacturing partners and investors to
> back the Sunrise.
Interesting.
They have never tried to make any move to build the Sunrise, in
fact, throwing out the molds, ect.
I can tell you the Sunrise is much more impressive in person than
the pics and if the center batt tunnel left out, large enough for 6 people !!
It can be built in 1,000 lbs with another 1,000 lbs in batts.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys,
I have a Force with non-operational Air Conditioning. I was hoping that
the A/C issues were related to zero levels of R134a. When I'm at a stop
and turn the key, then engage the A/C, the A/C motor does not turn. I
checked both fuses and rotated the compressor belt, and it turns by
hand.
Could the A/C motor be fried? I was thinking of next removing the
connector and measuring the voltage.
Has anyone had this problem? If it is the motor would this be a
Solectria only part?
Thanks,
Noel L
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-11-13, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> Are you using a flywheel? DOes it still have the ring gear? If so, then
> you can mount an electromagnet (steel bar with a coil around it) near, but
> not touching the teeth. Energies the coil and you will get pulses on it
> when the teeth come near.
Even better, wrap the coil around a small permanent magnet, and any time
a piece of iron passes the magnet you'll get a very nice pulse out.
Often called a "variable reluctance" sensor, I think.
Output looks like this when a bit of mild steel passes 1mm from the
sensor tip: http://zoic.org/sharkey/moto/efi/pix/pulse-546.jpg
... the little hiccup at the zero crossing is my fault, because I
filed the rotating vane by hand (and spun it in the drill press),
and it is slightly off center. I think that trace is at 1V/div.
> I don't have enough information with me out here, but I've worked on
> machines in the past that used this kind of sensor.
> Hmm, you might even be able to recycle a "crankshaft sensor" from a modern
> fuel injected engine.
Yeah, the sensor above is from my Honda motorcycle and is of very robust
construction. You could do a lot worse than to scrounge around in
motorcycle wreckers' yards for such things. The Honda ones sit inside
the crankcase, splashed by hot oil, so they're pretty damned robust.
-----sharks
--
"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research,
would it?" -- Albert Einstein
--- End Message ---
