EV Digest 4924
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Zero EV sports car?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New guy on te block
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New guy on te block
by "Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $
at this!
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Charger options
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $
at this!
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Zero EV sports car?
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) 72V controller/motor
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Charger options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Question for Otmar re breaker position
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by Joel Shellman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Access for Battery Maintenance
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Charger options
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Range extending
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Charger options
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Access for Battery Maintenance
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Charger options for ni-cads
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: FWD Hacks?
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence, have you seen this report?
http://www.greenseal.org/recommendations/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
It lists at least one Light Truck tire, the Michelin XPS rib.
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/17/05 9:04:04 PM >>>
So if heavy sidewalls are out looks like LT's are out. They are
heavily
built. I could get Hercules tires 14" LT's. The only small truck LT
made(85psi) or a set of Potenza's. There are a few others but I am
still
trolling for the right tire. I'd like to see someone's data to support
my
tire choice. 14inch 185's 25.5 inch diameter. I just looked at the
Hercules site and it seems they dropped their 14 inch LT line.
Lawrence
Rhodes.......Still looking..........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
The Zebra, which was built in Ca, did have a removable top. It was based on the
Tropica but had a full
windshield with 'A' pillars. The Tropica does not. As for the Tropica not being
a functional EV, I drive
mine every day. It's sitting in my EV parking spot charging at work right now.
Yes I froze on the way
to work today ;)
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:02:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at
this!
Hi John and All,
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Nice publicity stunts, I guess. I am,
of
course, talking about real
money - $$millions$$.
Lets see, you ask if any have put up money then redicule when
people show who did that proves you wrong? Way to go !!
To add to that , Don Johnson and an actress on his show put up
much of the money for the Tropica so another one you want to laugh at for doing
what you proposed below?
They made the fatal mistake of backing an EV that didn't have
doors or a top which just isn't going to fly. It must be a functional EV, not
just a toy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 08:29:49AM -0800, Don Cameron wrote:
> I found this link on the web this morning:
> http://www.boomplustoys.net/zerosports/evcar.htm No details, it looks like
> a single seater, no door, no roof electric go cart, but is hard to tell.
> Anyone see this before?
I've never seen this before, but doing a little googling turned up
the following image:
http://www.zero-ev.com/rireki/img/2005-06-11.jpg
Here is a site with specifications:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zero-ev.com%2Fev-ele%2Felexceed5.html&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&c2coff=1&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
>From that URL:
- Electric automobile
- First class motive for action machine attaching bicycle (four wheels)
- Vehicle inspection, garage proof, weight tax and acquisition tax unnecessary
- With 100V power source for home charge
- With charge of 8 hours 70km travelling possibility *
- Full speed 60km/h
* At the time of 30km/h speed limit travelling, numerical value fluctuates with
travelling condition.
Motor Type Direct current series
Rated output (kw) 0.59
Control system MOS-FET chopper PWM system
Battery Seal shape lead electric battery
Capacity * voltage 60Ah * 12v
Loading quantity 6
Entire voltage 72v
Perhaps there are translation errors, but it does not look very exciting :)
>
> thanks
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 20, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Don B. Davidson III wrote:
I have a website to share that documents my progress with these
projects. I add to it almost daily, although little progress will
occur once winter settles in to Central NY State. Go to:
www.spaces/msn.com/members/dbd3
Web site address correction <www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3>
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OOPS! Thanks for making the correction
Don Davidson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3
www.austinev.org/evalbum/662.html
www.austinev.org/evalbum/663.html
www.austinev.org/evalbum/664.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: New guy on te block
>
> On Nov 20, 2005, at 10:20 AM, Don B. Davidson III wrote:
>
> > I have a website to share that documents my progress with these
> > projects. I add to it almost daily, although little progress will
> > occur once winter settles in to Central NY State. Go to:
> > www.spaces/msn.com/members/dbd3
>
> Web site address correction <www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3>
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2 adults, 2 kids or (2 very flexible adults) and a baby seat between the
two back seats,(the safest spot and they get to look out the window
instead of at the back of your seat, they seem to like that) There will
be a center hump/batterypack tunnel so no leg room in center seat
position. Also, and a few of you parents out there will understand and
probably scold me, but a baby seat is a great way of keepoing a bag of
groceries from falling over :-)
1 motor and 1 battery pack = 2 seater + pick up baby form daycare kind
of commuter.
2 motor and 1 battery pack = sports car short range. autocross vehicle
2 motor and 2 battery packs = hill climbing and long ranger
LOL Autonomous Air Conditioning, I made that name up and forgot I
hadn't used it with the group.
It doesn't depend on vehicle motion or an idleing engine. So it can
be started via your keychain remote or set to run at say 85 when not
driving
In the summer here, it gets pretty hot, even 15 min in a parking lot
can drive a cars interior to 160. While I won't have the hot engine or
the sheetmetal, it still is a nice feature to have.
ps I am not a parent, I just helped raise a niece for the first 3 years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I am finally getting to the point in my fiero
conversion where I need to consider buying a new
charger. I have a K&W BC20, but that isn't going to
cut it anymore because my fiero will be higher voltage
than my old Jetta.
Can anyone point me to a charger. My criteria are :
-needs to be able to charge a 240 V pack (so up to
nearly 300 VDC)
-runs off either 110 or 220.
-less than $1k
-don't care about the power that much since i charge
over night anyway
-doesn't need a lot of smarts, but should atleast have
voltage and current adjustments.
up to now i have been charging with a bench top power
supply (part of the pack at a time),but that is going
to get old really fast.
does anyone have charger reccomendations ?
is there a modular solution that meets my needs ?
Delta-Q seems too expensive. anyone else ?
anyone got a used charger to sell ?
thanks.
~fortunat
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What I find interesting, is that there is no precedence for this in the
automotive market. Does anyone know of a kit-car company that turned
production? I wonder why we do not see more of this?
Well, if you want to count motorbikes, there is "Whizzer Motorbike",
selling it's first kit in 1939, and still in production today (with kits
and complete motorbikes)
http://www.whizzermotorbike.com
Same basic designs from way back then as well... talk about "no yearly
models"!
I seem to be one of the more traditional gear-head/car-nuts around here,
and ever since I was a kid I've always loved to read up and learn about
the history of various cars and the companies behind them, so here goes
nothing:
The historical pattern for most small (and some large) automobile
companies and divisions has typically been: Racing->Custom Production (+
maybe Kit Car)->Full Production. Prototypes were made strictly for
racing teams from garages/small factories, and if they won, it attracted
money, which allowed the companies to adapt the racing designs to
street-legal cars and start limited production. Typically the "Kit Car"
was done as a response to being unable to meet current production
demands (I ain't got time to build it, let 'em do it themselves)... many
companies end up languishing in this phase permanently until the
founder(s) eventually dies and all the plans/toolings get sold off along
with the various trademarks/patents. :(
But just because that is how it's usually BEEN done, doesn't mean that
is the way it HAS to be done.
Hey, we are talking about a whole new KIND of car, which may end up
taking a whole new approach of getting it into production.
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hey, parts:
http://www.zero-ev.com/ev-ele/elexceed.html
And video:
http://www.zero-ev.com/ev-ele/elexceed_video.html
On Nov 21, 2005, at 12:34 PM, Nick Austin wrote:
On Mon, Nov 21, 2005 at 08:29:49AM -0800, Don Cameron wrote:
I found this link on the web this morning:
http://www.boomplustoys.net/zerosports/evcar.htm No details, it
looks like
a single seater, no door, no roof electric go cart, but is hard to
tell.
Anyone see this before?
I've never seen this before, but doing a little googling turned up
the following image:
http://www.zero-ev.com/rireki/img/2005-06-11.jpg
Here is a site with specifications:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zero-ev.com
%2Fev-ele%2Felexceed5.html&langpair=ja%
7Cen&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&c2coff=1&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
From that URL:
- Electric automobile
- First class motive for action machine attaching bicycle (four
wheels)
- Vehicle inspection, garage proof, weight tax and acquisition tax
unnecessary
- With 100V power source for home charge
- With charge of 8 hours 70km travelling possibility *
- Full speed 60km/h
* At the time of 30km/h speed limit travelling, numerical value
fluctuates with travelling condition.
Motor Type Direct current series
Rated output (kw) 0.59
Control system MOS-FET chopper PWM system
Battery Seal shape lead electric battery
Capacity * voltage 60Ah * 12v
Loading quantity 6
Entire voltage 72v
Perhaps there are translation errors, but it does not look very
exciting :)
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff, Steve and All,
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was citing an example not actualy specific numbers but that is REALLY
encourageing that motor and controller prices drop that fast with such
small quantity orders.
I was surprised too.
I will be gathering this kind of info for
motors
batteries
controllers
suspension
etc
but I can see where some specifics need to be given.
In order to get the kind of range,weight,reliability i am thinking
motors Hollow shaft water cooled induction motor with
single speed gear reduction and integral differential
For the prices it would take for someone to do this for you, you
could build your own for many times less.
For the motor, an eff BLDC would cost about $125 in neo magnets
though you could make your own electro magents if you wanted a variable field.
About $100 for the coils and a hundred for the rotor, bearings, case and $50
for labor means you can do a better motor for a much lower cost than you will
get anywhere that is eff, has regen.
Controller parts for this type would be under $200 with $50 for
labor. Now compare that to any other one you can get and you quicly see just
how much you can save doing your own.
And a disc type motor like UM builds is very easy to design,
build. And it's controller can be rather simple, inexpensive too. Call me if
you would like to discuss it, or anyone interested in building EV's, and many
other ways I've found to cut EV production costs as I can't say a lot of them
on the list. 813-671-3059 My computer died an hr ago when a storm came thru so
may be hard to contact me with e mail.
batteries Kokam? lithium Poly packs that have integrated BMS
for charge balance and monitoring and telemetry.
If the body/chassis is correctly designed for low drag,
lightweight, you won't need batts like them, but can use ones like ni-cad for
an easy 150 mile range, 15-20 yrs life and they are actually available at a
good price.
Designing for stuff that isn't available, practical or reasonably
priced is a good way to make sure you will never actually get your EV built,
sold.
You are going to have to build your EV at about 60% of your selling
price, parts and labor included if you sell from the factory to cover overhead,
marketing, warranty, ect. If you have dealers, add another 15%.
Loaded into bottom of car in such a way
that future quick change is possible
That is a main reason the Bombadier? NEV failed so I wouldn't go
that way. Remove from the front, rear or sides, but not the bottom. It's better
to put the money in longer range batts, fast charging than removeable packs.
controllers single brain unit can handle 2 power units 4 wheel
speed inputs and can communicate to charger and User Interface computer
That will cause large repair bills as one will have no choice but to
repair it vs replacing just the defective unit and remove the ability to
upgrade. In the short run even lead to higher costs, something you can't afford
if you are going for a low cost EV.. That's a major problem with the EV-1 and
other major auto companies' EV's. Now many are orphaned
DC-DC water cooled but small, headlights and blower are no longer 12V.
Incandesant bulbs must be low voltage or their filaments will
quickly fail from vibration.
suspension Adjustable coil over, When a second battery pack is
added and or a second motor we would want to change springs and/or preload
That's why I'm going to air suspension. Low cost, adjustable and
'high tech' , cool, with the ability to lower the EV on the highway for lower
drag. Also as the jack, tire repair air supply. So try to get many birds with
one stone like this !!
Creature comforts : Instant heat, Autonomous Air conditioning, solar
powered parking lot vent,
Obviously the way to go in an EV as a big advantage they have.
On board server and mp3 player is part of UI
computer.
Not smart as it raises cost by intergrating it.
If car is in range of wireless you can go to it's web
page,(password protected), while you are inside the house or starbucks
or whatever and check charge status, upload/download music, download or
look at telemetry.
Are you sure you want a lowcost EV? keep getting more complicated
and it will never get built. KIS !! Remember price point is everything for a
low cost EV.
Infrastructure : Charging Kiosks to be installed in parking lots by
renting stalls from malls and major stores. These are plug in and slide
your "charge" card thru and walk away. The "Charge" card is issued by
the service department and tells the unit your voltage and comm
protocol. It will cost more per kwh than at home to pay for themselfs.
They will come as soon as there are enough EV's on the road.
The also have a web presence so you can check to see if the ones at the
mall are busy, I don' know if reservations are a good idea yet. You may
call a phonenumber, type in your charge code and hear a computer voice
rattle off charge status.
Use a seperate computer for that for the same reasons above.
Jerry,
The Zebra, which was built in Ca, did have a removable top. It was
based on the Tropica but had a full
windshield with 'A' pillars.
By then it was too late! Too bad they didn't start that way.
Though if you knew the cost of doors, you would know why they did it that way
at first.
The Tropica does not. As for the Tropica
not being a functional EV, I drive
mine every day. It's sitting in my EV parking spot charging at work
right now. Yes I froze on the way
to work today ;)
Steve
While fine for a few people like yourself, but here in Fla and
Seattle, ect, the rain, cold, ect make sure one without doors, top, windows
will fail in the marketplace as they must be all weather EV's..
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I recall someone was selling a 72V 1209B-6402 controller (or Alltrax equiv) and
a ADC or Warfield motor L91-4003. I also need a reverse contactor, E-F meter,
DC conv & some other jiblets. I thought i'd check before I started buying new.
Please email me offline.
Thanks, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have the soluttion...
But it's not less than $1K.
I doubt you will find one...
The simplest is a 240 0 to 280 volt Variac and a rectifier...And a voltage
regulating circuit.
Running off of 120 you are going to have to find a Step up transformer.
Good Luck..been there done that... Got Better ideas now...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 10:19 AM
Subject: Charger options
> Hi all,
>
> I am finally getting to the point in my fiero
> conversion where I need to consider buying a new
> charger. I have a K&W BC20, but that isn't going to
> cut it anymore because my fiero will be higher voltage
> than my old Jetta.
>
> Can anyone point me to a charger. My criteria are :
>
> -needs to be able to charge a 240 V pack (so up to
> nearly 300 VDC)
> -runs off either 110 or 220.
> -less than $1k
>
> -don't care about the power that much since i charge
> over night anyway
> -doesn't need a lot of smarts, but should atleast have
> voltage and current adjustments.
>
> up to now i have been charging with a bench top power
> supply (part of the pack at a time),but that is going
> to get old really fast.
>
> does anyone have charger reccomendations ?
>
> is there a modular solution that meets my needs ?
> Delta-Q seems too expensive. anyone else ?
> anyone got a used charger to sell ?
>
> thanks.
> ~fortunat
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:31 AM 21/11/05 -0500, Dewey, Jody R wrote:
I don't know about you but I would be VERY leary of putting ANYTHING that is
channeling 400 amps or more under my seat. Heck if anything went wrong you
would be the first to catch fire! Why not put the Zilla on the inside of
the firewall on the passenger side?
Sorry, I must not have been clear: the vehicle is a cab-forward truck, as I
wrote:
the Zilla (in the motor bay under the drivers' seat).
Specifically, in a steel enclosure, along with the current shunts and
probably the breaker, in the motor bay, under the original steel engine-bay
access hatch, that has the drivers' seat on top of it.
I am often horrified by what I see as the risks that people take when
building EVs. For example, in my vehicle there will be NOWHERE that a HV
terminal or conductor can be touched without removing a cover that needs a
tool to get off, nowhere, period.
My EV will be as safe as I can reasonably make it - which is one reason it
is taking so long.
Thanks for the interest.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/21/05, Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lawrence, have you seen this report?
>
> http://www.greenseal.org/recommendations/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
Am I reading that right? Low rolling resistance tires will get you at
most 4.5% increase in efficiency? Does that translate directly in that
if your EV has a 100 mile range, with the low rolling resistance
tires, it'll get 105 or so?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel,
You are ready the report right, but it is based on ICE cars, which
waste a lot of energy just sitting there. Electrics are much more
efficient and overcoming rolling resistance is a larger part of the
energy consumed by them. So the savings on an EV should be much greater
than what is stated in the Green report.
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/21/05 11:21:37 AM >>>
On 11/21/05, Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Lawrence, have you seen this report?
>
>
http://www.greenseal.org/recommendations/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
Am I reading that right? Low rolling resistance tires will get you at
most 4.5% increase in efficiency? Does that translate directly in that
if your EV has a 100 mile range, with the low rolling resistance
tires, it'll get 105 or so?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Currently in the New Beetle I am using Deka Lead Gel cells. Some of the
batteries are buried deep in the engine compartment and difficult to access.
I am thinking to the future using Lithium batteries. What kind of periodic
maintenance is required for Lithium? How often do the batteries have to be
accessed?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
be carreful Jerry Nicad will die after 2008 in europe (by Law) and Saft NIMH
is not so good nor in production...despite there is other manufacturers no
one as real production line like Saft with STM5-100.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $
at this!
> Hi Jeff, Steve and All,
>
> Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was citing an example not actualy specific numbers but that is
REALLY
> encourageing that motor and controller prices drop that fast with such
> small quantity orders.
>
> I was surprised too.
>
>
> I will be gathering this kind of info for
> motors
> batteries
> controllers
> suspension
> etc
>
> but I can see where some specifics need to be given.
>
>
> In order to get the kind of range,weight,reliability i am thinking
>
> motors Hollow shaft water cooled induction motor with
> single speed gear reduction and integral differential
>
> For the prices it would take for someone to do this for you,
you could build your own for many times less.
> For the motor, an eff BLDC would cost about $125 in neo
magnets though you could make your own electro magents if you wanted a
variable field. About $100 for the coils and a hundred for the rotor,
bearings, case and $50 for labor means you can do a better motor for a much
lower cost than you will get anywhere that is eff, has regen.
> Controller parts for this type would be under $200 with $50
for labor. Now compare that to any other one you can get and you quicly see
just how much you can save doing your own.
> And a disc type motor like UM builds is very easy to design,
build. And it's controller can be rather simple, inexpensive too. Call me if
you would like to discuss it, or anyone interested in building EV's, and
many other ways I've found to cut EV production costs as I can't say a lot
of them on the list. 813-671-3059 My computer died an hr ago when a storm
came thru so may be hard to contact me with e mail.
>
>
>
> batteries Kokam? lithium Poly packs that have integrated BMS
> for charge balance and monitoring and telemetry.
>
> If the body/chassis is correctly designed for low drag,
lightweight, you won't need batts like them, but can use ones like ni-cad
for an easy 150 mile range, 15-20 yrs life and they are actually available
at a good price.
> Designing for stuff that isn't available, practical or
reasonably priced is a good way to make sure you will never actually get
your EV built, sold.
> You are going to have to build your EV at about 60% of your
selling price, parts and labor included if you sell from the factory to
cover overhead, marketing, warranty, ect. If you have dealers, add another
15%.
>
>
> Loaded into bottom of car in such a way
> that future quick change is possible
>
> That is a main reason the Bombadier? NEV failed so I wouldn't
go that way. Remove from the front, rear or sides, but not the bottom. It's
better to put the money in longer range batts, fast charging than removeable
packs.
>
>
> controllers single brain unit can handle 2 power units 4 wheel
> speed inputs and can communicate to charger and User Interface computer
>
> That will cause large repair bills as one will have no choice
but to repair it vs replacing just the defective unit and remove the ability
to upgrade. In the short run even lead to higher costs, something you can't
afford if you are going for a low cost EV.. That's a major problem with the
EV-1 and other major auto companies' EV's. Now many are orphaned
>
>
>
> DC-DC water cooled but small, headlights and blower are no longer 12V.
>
> Incandesant bulbs must be low voltage or their filaments will
quickly fail from vibration.
>
> suspension Adjustable coil over, When a second battery pack is
> added and or a second motor we would want to change springs and/or preload
>
> That's why I'm going to air suspension. Low cost, adjustable
and 'high tech' , cool, with the ability to lower the EV on the highway for
lower drag. Also as the jack, tire repair air supply. So try to get many
birds with one stone like this !!
>
>
> Creature comforts : Instant heat, Autonomous Air conditioning, solar
> powered parking lot vent,
>
> Obviously the way to go in an EV as a big advantage they have.
>
>
> On board server and mp3 player is part of UI
> computer.
>
> Not smart as it raises cost by intergrating it.
>
> If car is in range of wireless you can go to it's web
> page,(password protected), while you are inside the house or starbucks
> or whatever and check charge status, upload/download music, download or
> look at telemetry.
>
> Are you sure you want a lowcost EV? keep getting more
complicated and it will never get built. KIS !! Remember price point is
everything for a low cost EV.
>
>
> Infrastructure : Charging Kiosks to be installed in parking lots by
> renting stalls from malls and major stores. These are plug in and slide
> your "charge" card thru and walk away. The "Charge" card is issued by
> the service department and tells the unit your voltage and comm
> protocol. It will cost more per kwh than at home to pay for themselfs.
>
> They will come as soon as there are enough EV's on the road.
>
>
> The also have a web presence so you can check to see if the ones at the
> mall are busy, I don' know if reservations are a good idea yet. You may
> call a phonenumber, type in your charge code and hear a computer voice
> rattle off charge status.
>
> Use a seperate computer for that for the same reasons above.
>
> Jerry,
>
> The Zebra, which was built in Ca, did have a removable top. It was
> based on the Tropica but had a full
> windshield with 'A' pillars.
>
> By then it was too late! Too bad they didn't start that
way. Though if you knew the cost of doors, you would know why they did it
that way at first.
>
>
>
> The Tropica does not. As for the Tropica
> not being a functional EV, I drive
> mine every day. It's sitting in my EV parking spot charging at work
> right now. Yes I froze on the way
> to work today ;)
> Steve
> While fine for a few people like yourself, but here in Fla
and Seattle, ect, the rain, cold, ect make sure one without doors, top,
windows will fail in the marketplace as they must be all weather EV's..
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fortunat,
> Delta-Q seems too expensive. anyone else ?
What batteries are you using?
Our Delta-Q charger might be an expensive option for a modular approach,
however, there are alternatives. For instance, the model that is used
in the E-Drive plug-in Prius is a 1kW universal input PFC charger (like
all of our models), that can handle up to a 216V PbA pack on its own. A
pair of these in parallel would deliver 8A to the pack, but the voltage
won't go quite high enough for your 240V pack. One across each half of
the pack would easily handle the voltage requirements, and the reduced
total power would be a good match for a 15A 120VAC circuit. The 4A
charge rate might or might not be sufficient depending on the capacity
of your pack, but might be fine given your stated overnight charge
regimen. Retail for our chargers is in the US$500-600/ea range, so a
pair is right in your $1k ballpark. Models that cover the range between
72V and 216V as well as ones that extend the range to 300V and above are
in development, but that doesn't help you at the moment.
If you're using simple floodeds, you might be best to spring for the
smallest PFC model from Rich Rudman. It won't be isolated, and is dumb
as a rock, but you will have only a single box to mount and it can be
adjusted to give you whatever your outlet will allow. IIRC, the
smallest PFC model is about $1500.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Martens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It's a Geo Metro that I've stripped all possible weight out
> of. When it runs I'll put it on the scales, but I'm
> estimating a total of 1700lbs. 4KW average draw is a hope,
> maybe 6-8 is more realistic. I'm trying to get away with an
> Etek and 4 Optima yellow tops. a 15-20mi around town range
> might be realistic without any generator.
Hmmm... I think you are *way* too optomistic.
Consider that Electrathon racing vehicles running an Etek and
more-or-less a pair of Optimas get about 1hr @ 30mph consuming near a
steady 1 hp (746W). This is about 30-40A @ 24V for 1hr. An Electrathon
vehicle weighs about 300lbs fully loaded including driver, and is a tiny
aerodynamic 1-person vehicle built using bicycle components (3 wheels).
You are proposing carrying about 2x the battery, but have increased the
weight 5.6x, and have a vehicle with a much larger CdA figure and higher
rolling losses. If I remember correctly, one of the lowest power
figures I recall seeing on the EPA site was about 10hp to maintain 50mph
(55?); I think this was for a Honda.
NEVs typically operate at 72V, using batteries with about 2x the
capacity of a YT, and weigh similarly to your stripped down Metro. They
get about 30miles per charge and while your Etek may be a bit more
efficient than the typical NEV sepex motor, even 20% improvement there
will not make up for carrying about 1/3 the battery capacity. I would
expect you to be fortunate to get 10mi of range on level ground, and
even then would expect acceleration to be very sluggish and battery life
to be quite short (Electrathon racers discharge their batteries to
100%DOD, but that is racing; you want to keep your YTs discharged no
deeper than 80% for any sort of life and no deeper than 50% for good
life).
Good luck,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Fortunat,
>
> > Delta-Q seems too expensive. anyone else ?
>
> What batteries are you using?
I am using the BB600 surplus NiCads. Today I have 100
in series, but plan to add another 100 in the next few
weeks. They seem to charge up ok without a complicated
charge algorithm, so i don't think that limits
charging options much.
> however, there are alternatives. For instance, the
are these other models on your web page ? if not,
where can i find the specs and prices.
i agree that Rich's chargers are a pretty good deal
for the price. It is just that even the small one has
more power than i need, and I would rather not pay for
it if I don't have to. I am also saving to upgrade to
a decent controller so $$ is sparse (isn't it always).
thanks
~fortunat
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right !
On our scooter we have seen near 20% more range using special LRR tires
(1992 Dunlop K888 10") inflated at right value (3.2PSI)
big improvement though lighter and cheaper than lead...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Shellman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: Low rolling resistance tires
> On 11/21/05, Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Lawrence, have you seen this report?
> >
> > http://www.greenseal.org/recommendations/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
>
> Am I reading that right? Low rolling resistance tires will get you at
> most 4.5% increase in efficiency? Does that translate directly in that
> if your EV has a 100 mile range, with the low rolling resistance
> tires, it'll get 105 or so?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
Thunder Sky lithiums don't require any maintenance.
While it is probably a good idea to check them every so often
(interconnects tight, no cracking or distorting case, stuff like that)
they should be pretty right on their own for months on end.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Access for Battery Maintenance
Currently in the New Beetle I am using Deka Lead Gel cells. Some of the
batteries are buried deep in the engine compartment and difficult to
access.
I am thinking to the future using Lithium batteries. What kind of
periodic
maintenance is required for Lithium? How often do the batteries have to
be
accessed?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Fortunat and All,
I'd do a 120/240 input iso transformer with the 240vac
output, bridge rect, with a dimmer controlled 10-20 amp battery charger to
either up or down the output voltage, amps with caps, inductors for PFC. It may
be really close even without the batt charger and can use just caps to limit
current.
But I'd go for the batt charger so be able to handle a much
wider input voltage as AC voltage can vary a lot, especially at the end of a
long extention cord and ni-cads need 1.65vdc/cell to be really charged.
Then use an E meter or whatever they call them now to turn
it off thru a relay after it puts 105-110% back in of what was used. This will
cost about $350 and give you excellent charging of ni-cads at a reasonable
price from either 120-240 vac input.
With that many cells you need to keep overcharging to a
minimun for lower water consumption so I'd only charge to 110% every 4 or 5
cycles with 90-100% charge on the other cycles.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- Roger Stockton wrote:
> Hi Fortunat,
>
> > Delta-Q seems too expensive. anyone else ?
>
> What batteries are you using?
I am using the BB600 surplus NiCads. Today I have 100
in series, but plan to add another 100 in the next few
weeks. They seem to charge up ok without a complicated
charge algorithm, so i don't think that limits
charging options much.
> however, there are alternatives. For instance, the
are these other models on your web page ? if not,
where can i find the specs and prices.
i agree that Rich's chargers are a pretty good deal
for the price. It is just that even the small one has
more power than i need, and I would rather not pay for
it if I don't have to. I am also saving to upgrade to
a decent controller so $$ is sparse (isn't it always).
thanks
~fortunat
__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You also want a shifter in case you need to flat-tow it sometime and
want to get it into neutral.
I like the threaded base idea. Make a little cover that goes over it
so it looks like it doesn't need a shifter.
Tim
On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:53 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 21, 2005 8:11:04 AM PST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: FWD Hacks?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 9:27 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Jerry, I considered the same, although I do find it convenient for
those
rare times to shift it into 1st or 3rd when I go on the highway.
Just for
those rare occasions I left it in.
Imagine if you batteries were low and trying to make it up the
last hill.
You would have to pull over and park, get a tow truck.
That's a good point.
Hmm, maybe I shorten the shifter so there's just a little nub
sticking out of the carpet? Better yet, make the stick shift so
it threads into the base. Unscrew it and keep hidden in the glove
box only for emergencies! ":^)
-Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoting:
>One reason Wright and several dozen members of her engineering
>team are meeting with Escape Hybrid owners is to avoid the
>customer-dissatisfaction problems that are tarnishing hybrids
>from Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co.
>
>Many buyers of the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid are angry
>that their vehicles aren't getting the EPA estimated fuel economy
>printed on the window sticker. A Prius that has an EPA rating of
>close to 60 mpg in city driving typically gets closer to 40 mpg,
>according to about a dozen Web sites and owner forums. The EPA is
>working to revamp its decades-old test procedure.
Bleh,
I find it says more about the person making these negative comments
than the competition who is targeted.
Apparently Ford does not understand that in downplaying other
hybrids, they will also impact the public view of their own vehicles.
I don't disagree that there are a few Prius and Accords that are
not maintained or tuned properly, too much toe-in; too low pressure;
too much oil and whatever else you can come up with, BUT
I am quite sure that you will find cars like these for ANY brand
and type of car, the difference being that the MPG is so very
visible on the Hybrids that you are more likely to find that they
do not perform according EPA spec.
Also it makes a larger difference on efficient cars - where a car
that gets 12 MPG has a slight problem this will hardly affect the
mileage, while the super-efficient cars are taking a big hit in
mileage when the same inefficiency appears.
Personally I get 48 MPG at the *pump* with my 2002 Prius and I
am not very fanatic about the way I drive, it is an average of
some city-driving and some freeway, more shorter trips than long
ones - in fact, my wife drives it at least as much as I do.
I did fix the problems mentioned before and I saw a big increase
in mileage. It seems we need to educate the people performing
maintenance on the cars, because that is where it counts.
Smearing other automakers is only hurting the person smearing in
the long run, so it does not make sense for Ford to do so,
although I am not surprised.
Telling such story to (prospect) customers is a sales tactic, but
one that is usually employed by sleazy second-hand car salesmen.
This does not bode good for Ford's attemps at cleaning up its act.
I hope they will get the picture some day.
BTW - my favorite "Hybrid" is a PHEV with 10 kWh usable battery
capacity, 100 kW (peak) motor and a 600 cc engine that does not
come on unless its power is required (assist or battery charging).
In essence a Hybrid with a strong emphasis on the electric system
both in capacity and performance, where the gas engine is mainly
for range entension and some assistance in high-performance demand
cases. And plug-in to avoid using gas for the first 40 miles of
each trip, which would mean most trips will not use any gas.
Prototyping such a car should be easy:
- start with a 2004 Prius and add battery capacity & modified BMS
like the Calcars / Prius+
- modify the engine (close input valve on 2 cylinders and make
the output valve permanent open) so it runs on 2 cyl (750 cc)
(my first car had two engine models, a 600 and the one I had
with 800 cc engine - 2-cylinder air-cooled. It did run 80 MPH)
- if possible, beef up the drive to the electric motors so they
can deliver a 100 kW peak while maintaining the 50 kW average.
Since constant speed on the Freeway should cost only about 15 kW
(between 1/4 and 1/5 kWh per mile) the electric motor should
never need to be (over-) driven at peak power for a long time.
- Last but not least: the engine needs to be able to turn without
using gas, to avoid over-speeding the electric motors, due to
the way the torque-converter is designed in the Prius.
That mode is already present in the Prius, it will only need
to be activated in a wider range of operation, not only when
slowing down from high speed or coming down a mountain.
In fact, this last state will be the normal (EV) operational
state as long as the "range-extension" or "power assist" engine
does not need to come on.
NOTE for Insight-fans: this is exactly the opposite terminology
as Honda uses for their power sources, where the electric motor
is considered "assist" while I like to see the engine to be the
designated "assist" and have EV-centred operation.
I understand that already several people have requested such a
kind of hybrid from Toyota and the Toyota engineers and managers
are not negative about this idea, most likely encouraged by the
success of Prius+ PHEV, so I hope they will move further to the
"electric" operation mode with future Hybrid models.
You can help by making your voice heard and ask Toyota to make
a PHEV model available. I'd be very interested in one - in fact,
it will be my first *new* car purchase.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
