EV Digest 4930
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Cold storage of Batteries
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 8 volt chargers? EQ'ing a single battery
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 8 volt chargers? EQ'ing a single battery
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Fiero Adapter question
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Clean Car Rally at the White House
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) BC-20 Amps
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Doc Kennedy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Cold storage of Batteries
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Vortex Generators and/or Strakes
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Cold storage of Batteries
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Easy Headliner Repair?
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Easy Headliner Repair?
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by Joel Shellman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Easy Headliner Repair?
by "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [email protected]> the sticker cost. >From http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/20799.shtml: 2003 Toyota Echo MPG (city) 33 MPG (highway) 39 MPG (combined) 36 >From http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/20934.shtml: 2005 Toyota Prius MPG (city) 60 MPG (highway) 51 MPG (combined) 55 34% better combined, Or a whopping 45% better in the city!! ** 45% **Nick -That is EPA mileage " testing" - they don't actually drive the cars on the road. EPA testing is way off for most cars, and especially for hybrids.In Consumer Reports magazine ( October 05 issue) they show mileage test results ( actual driving results) for different cars, including - for mixed city and highway driving -Prius : 44 mpg overall ( 11 mpg less than EPA estimate) Echo : 38 mpg overall ( 2 MPG better than EPA estimate)So, according to actual testing, the Prius gets 16 % better fuel mileage then the Echo. This almost exactly matches the numbers claimed by me and Joel in the previous couple of posts ( 17%) based on real driving experience from people on this list.Consumer reports is a non-profit organization that accepts no advertising - I have faith in their testing results - they have no ax to grind.They also show ( in another chart in the same article) that the EPA prediction for the Honda Civic Hybrid is 48 MPG city , and their actual testing showed 26 MP city . In this case the EPA prediction is 85% higher than the actual value. This is inexcusable.One of the reason for the current hybrid popularity is the inflated EPA numbers for them. EPA needs to clean up their act. People should know the real performance of all cars so that they can choose based on honest data.Phil _________________________________________________________________Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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--- Begin Message ---Actually AGM batteries are VERY tollerant of high charging currents. I doubt your lester charger would hurt them at all. In many cases chargers are not able to keep up with AGMs in providing the charge in the same manner they were discharged. If you want a new one I would recommend a ZIVAN programmable one. That way you can change the charge curve according to the pack you have. -----Original Message----- From: Don Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:10 AM To: EV_Discussion_Group Subject: Cold storage of Batteries I live in Central NY State where during the winter months the ambient air temp rarely gets above zero degrees F. I store my EV from mid November until mid April. What are the proper methods of charging the batteries or protecting the batteries from freezing during this long term storage? The garage the EV in is not heated. I'm using 16 six volt lead acid batteries in my EV. What special attention do the batteries require during long term cold storage? Also, I may be shopping for a new charger. Nothing fancy. Something that will charge 96-120 VDC traction pack and is able to accommodate AGM batteries as well as "traditional" or "standard" 6/8/12VDC batteries. Any recommendations? I have three 30 year old Lester chargers. What is the general opinion of Lester chargers? I believe my Lester chargers would severely damage AGM batteries. Is this true? Enjoy your turkey! Don Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3<http://www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3>
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--- Begin Message ---Well a load test revealed that the majority of my batteries are just fine. There is, however, a stinker at the end, and I don't like boiling off active material for the sake of bringing up one battery who's SG just won't come up (seems to be stuck at 1.245). Option 1: Go back to Interstate, and swap, excercising a pro-rata. Option 2: EQ again, this time using the distilled water treatment (remove some acid, charge, replace the acid). Option 3: Charge it outside of the rest of the pack. Anyone know a real good charger manufacturer for 8V batteries? (Obviously the PFC-20 could do 2 at a time in series, just not one...) Thanks, '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)! www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html ____ __/__|__\ __ =D-------/ - - \ 'O'-----'O'-' Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids? __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---I would go with Option 1. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:03 AM To: [email protected] Subject: 8 volt chargers? EQ'ing a single battery Well a load test revealed that the majority of my batteries are just fine. There is, however, a stinker at the end, and I don't like boiling off active material for the sake of bringing up one battery who's SG just won't come up (seems to be stuck at 1.245). Option 1: Go back to Interstate, and swap, excercising a pro-rata. Option 2: EQ again, this time using the distilled water treatment (remove some acid, charge, replace the acid). Option 3: Charge it outside of the rest of the pack. Anyone know a real good charger manufacturer for 8V batteries? (Obviously the PFC-20 could do 2 at a time in series, just not one...) Thanks, '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)! www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html ____ __/__|__\ __ =D-------/ - - \ 'O'-----'O'-' Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids? __________________________________ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---Ryan Stotts wrote: "Is your flywheel neutral balanced or does it have any balance weights on it? What's the imbalance of it?" It isn't about the imbalance, its about getting the flywheel to attach to the adapter hub. The V6 flywheel uses 6 M10.9 17 mm fine thread bolts torqued to 50 ft-lb. The adapter hub is tapped for 6 3/8-16 UNC bolts. I was looking for confirmation that the 2.5L flywheel uses those bolts - it doesn't seem right. I knew they used the same clutch, and was wondering if the flywheel was the same, too (at least if the connection was the same). Granted, a 3/8 coarse thread bolt will fit in the hole, but there will be more slop with those than with the proper bolt. The head of the 3/8 bolt is taller, too. David Brandt __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---Phil Wrote:As far as emissions vs gas mileage, if you are concerned about green-house gases, the CO2 (the dominant green house gas) that a car produces is exactly proportional to its fuel usage. There is no magic that hybrids can do to change that. So, the Prius produces 17% less CO2. Not a HUGE difference.I was about to respond to Phil and say there is a huge difference in respect to large units of vehicles. But just for grins I ran some numbers. As of September Toyota sold 72,000 Prius' in the US in 2005. They will probably exceed 100,000 cars in 2005 like they did in 2004. I think total worldwide sales to date are well over a 1/4 million.The Prius emits 104 grams/km of CO2. The average car produces 198 grams/km. Toyota Echo, 117 grams/km. Just for fun the Hummer H2 produces a whopping 432 grams/km of CO2. Choke me baby.For 100,000 cars that equates to about 11.46 tons of CO2 - Prius 12.89 tons of CO2 - Echo 21.85 tons of CO2 - Average Car 47.61 tons of CO2 - Hummer H2 Your mileage may vary and I'm NOT a professional number cruncher. Chip Gribben NEDRA Webmaster http://www.nedra.com Thanks for the data, Chip. My take on this is that :1. The advantage emissions-wise of the Prius over another modern, high mileage car ( like the Echo - my family owns three of them) is relatively small ; 12.5% by your numbers.2. But, if large numbers of Prius are bought by people who would otherwise drive cars like the Average Car in you list ( or, even better yet, Hummers) , that would be a great benefit.Phil Hi Phil,Yep, I pretty much drew the same conclusion after running these numbers. There isn't that much difference between the fuel sippers like the Echo and the Prius. But if people trade in their average car for a Prius, in large numbers, there could be a significant change in emissions and gas savings. I'm sure Toyota will exceed well over 100,000 cars in 2005. I thought I heard Toyota planned to ramp up production to 140,000 units for the US this year. That really helps. It's a step in the right direction. We plan to buy a Prius in 2006 and just started actively looking.What's also interesting to think about is we need 4 Prius' to offset the emissions from one Hummer and looking at the ratio of Prius sales to Hummers. It's about 4 to 1. Hummer sales seem to average between 2500 and 4000 per month. But I'm sure US demand will increase that ratio even more.Chip
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--- Begin Message ---My wife has an 04' prius. I'd love for it to be plug in with a larger pack because most of the drives it does on are very very short so we would use almost no gas. 800mpg could be possible ;-) Is there a proper description of that yet? Maybe 800mpg with 45kwh plug in power. We just can't take my electric truck because it just got done with it's commute and needs juice. Plus it is a piece of junk with no a/c no real heat and a laundry list of other problems and I swear it has flood damage from before I got it. Don't get me wrong it has always gotten me where I was going and only once gave me a scare because the batteries were really really cold and I wasn't thinking. Once I'm done with my EV Motorcycle I may take a crack and fixing all it's non EV issues. Now in regards to mileage all I can say is somehow my wife gets 41mpg in the 04' prius. When I drive through the same routes for a whole tank I get 57+ without even looking at the gauges or anything just driving with traffic. She used to get much better mileage in the '01 we had but maybe back then she was trying. Mark Hastings
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--- Begin Message ---** Reply to message from Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Wed, 23 Nov 2005 06:40:37 -0800 (PST) > Now in regards to mileage all I can say is somehow my wife gets 41mpg in the > 04' prius. When I drive through the same routes for a whole tank I get 57+ My wife and I get the exact same mileage difference in our 04 prius. She's a leadfoot. If the battery\plug-in option ever becomes available, I will sure try to find the bucks to buy it. Dale Curren
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--- Begin Message --- Electric and hybird electric cars needed for the Clean Car rally sponsored by the Chesapeake Climate Action Network. http://www.chesapeakeclimate.org50 cars have pledged to show so far. Lets make it 100! Date and Time: Saturday December 3, 2005 10:00 am Meeting Place:Meet at Mark Park parking lot at 500 New York Ave NW in Chinatown, near 6th and K Streets NWRally near the White House and parade around the White House. World's largest hybrid and EV parade around the White House.Let's pass the word ! This day is also the World Action Day for climate change, as the world's climate change reps are meeting in Montreal on this day.Chip Gribben Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC Webmaster http://www.evadc.org NEDRA Webmaster http://www.nedra.com
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--- Begin Message ---On Nov 23, 2005, at 9:37 AM, Chip Gribben wrote:But if people trade in their average car for a Prius, in large numbers, there could be a significant change in emissions and gas savings. I'm sure Toyota will exceed well over 100,000 cars in 2005. I thought I heard Toyota planned to ramp up production to 140,000 units for the US this year. That really helps. It's a step in the right direction. We plan to buy a Prius in 2006 and just started actively looking.This seems like a salient point here. When you buy a vehicle you are in a sense "voting" with your money. Maybe the Prius doesn't have the "extreme ultimate" solution, but is it going in a direction that you agree with? If so, and you have the money, buy one. The way to support this direction in technology/manufacturing is to purchase now and promote it to others. Sure, you may spend more money but that's how these things work. Higher quantities mean more R&D, more parts manufacturers, and eventually price reductions and a wider variety of the batteries and components that we (EV'ers) enjoy so much. Just me thinking... -Jerry http://www.evconvert.com/
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--- Begin Message ---A BC-20 charger, without the boost transformer, says it can handle up to a 108V PbA pack. At 2.5 volts per cell, this comes to 135V. I was wondering for my TS pack, which totals to 148.75V, if I configured the BC-20, still without transformer, for 120V, would the charger start out at full amperage when the pack was low, then taper off to a lower amperage as the pack went from the 135V to 148.75V range? For the TS cells, ideally I'd like to start out charging at the full 20A, but then switch to 2A when the first cell reaches 4.25V. If the BC-20 would automatically taper down as the pack approached 148.75V, however, I think would work also. Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---Mr. Merz, Consider these points: 1] In the era 50 years ago of very cheap oil and big cars, VW found a nitche and succeeded. 2] 25 years ago, every auto maker demonized Ethanol as as an engine destorying fuel even as an additive, but now Ford touts that it will make 250,000 E85 vehicles in 2006. 3] It will probably take any major automaker atleast 10 years to stop milking the oil/hydrogen/government subsidy cash cow and gear up any practical EV program, if ever.... 4] Lastly they will surely follow the pattern repeated by the original Corbin Sparrow and ignore the hard learned wisdom of the folks on this EV list and create an overpriced, over- engineered EV Edsel. Individuals like Jerry Dycus with the support of numerous list members are making the EV a reality and with the need for and the existing vacuum the only failure is the lack of doing. IMHO Doc Kennedy On 11/22/05, Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hello Everybody: > > Our company currently designs an EV truck prototype for a client. This > client wants offer a combination of solar/wind charging and fleet vehicles > to big farms/ranches. > > While I personally like the idea to start a small car manufacturer and to > start producing EVs, there's one thing that came up during our feasability > studies: What if, say in two or three years, Honda or Toyota or any other > $company starts offering plugin-hybrids or even EVs? How will any small > business be able to gain significant market share against the big guys? > > The idea of building an EV and to push it into the market with a > relatively small investment (and I would consider a million or two a > 'small' investment) stands or falls with having significant competition. > As long as the traditional car companies are not offering a product that > people want, there's a very good chance to sucessfully penetrate markets > and to earn money. > > So - IF somebody would really want to go this way, time to market would be > very important. Be fast or be last sorta thing. > > As usual, just my 2 cents. > > Michaela > > > During the feasability studies, we encoutered > > > Hi Jeff and All, > > > > Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Batteries from the bottom > > was for safety or perception of safety but > > point is well taken and NONE of this is set in stone. > > > > Cool as it's alway important to have an open mind. The earlier > EV > > projects failed like the Sparrow, Tropica from not being > > flexible, willing to learn. If Corbin had listened to those here > > on the list, they would probably still be in production !! I've > > had to change my design several times already as better ways have > > been found. > > > > I will call you about motor construction. (when it isn't midnight > > florida time) > > > > Cool. But there are other things too that seriously reduce > > production costs I can't say here. > > > > I dissagree with you on the computer. But I am a computer person so I > > may be just a little biased. But I think it is really just a matter of > > perspective, > > > > As long as you can build it so the repair or replamement > costs > > are low, then it's cool. But I prefer the modular, seperate > > unit approach as it gives me the ability to use stock, readily > > available units that already have high production rates, thus > > lower costs. > > > > > > > > Just like you toute the advantages of using air which > > consolidates the jack into the project, The computer consoladates > > wireing and sensors, and functionality and is itself modular to some > > extend with I/O boards, although the more internal connectors, the > > higher the risk of failure. > > > > But the easier, lower costs of repairs, Gold contacts are > worth > > the price to keep failures low. > > > > > > The wireless is essentually free, as is the mp3 player and are really > > all just features of the User Interface Even the radio is a radio card. > > This is also For displaying the additional information an EV will have. > > It makes the dash a matter of software. Once the charger and BMS and > > controller can send info out on the buss the user interface computer > > can display it anyway you like. > > > > > > take a look at some of this! > > http://www.dashwerks.com/pictures/index.php > > > > all the diagnostic, door lock, radio and mp3,gps,telemetry, and a movie > > for the kids to boot. 1/2 done already ! > > > > As long as readily available and won't be orphaned in a yr or > > 2. > > > > It will be a 2 computer environment, 1 is the time critical system and > > the other is everything else, but some info is shared accross a common > > bus. > > It makes adding a button or control for new things just a matter of > > software. One problem is touch screens suck to use while you drive, so > > good tactile buttons are needed and I don't know if modal functionality > > would be acceptable. (Like my stereo. 1 up and 1 down button then a mode > > switch from vol to bal to fader to treble and back to volume) > > > > > > HID bulbs was the goal, Since the circutry for HID takes 12V and > > converts it up to about 100V for run and ~5000V for strike, why convert > > down to 12 then back up? Electroluminescent rear is also a high voltage > > thing LED's are such low voltage that series strings are required > > anyway, lotsa options. > > > > Yes that's ok but have you seen the price of HID's? Not > > compatable with low cost. If the price can come down, then > > that's cool. > > > > > > If the same dc-dc also provides 120V ac we sell the 110V outlet feature > > while we also use smaller lighter AC blower motors. :-) > > > > Something I'm planning. > > > > > > Air springs, And I work for a company that makes them. LOL > > Well, I don't know about tuning them, I really don't want to add > > another stressed part, the air compressor and another sensor and seithc > > and 12V? load. > > It can be 120vac too. > > > > Balance that with a jack and it is something to think about. > > > > Mechanical Springs are the epidomy of KISS. > > > > But they can't lower air drag or balance variable loads. And > > the price is about the same using adjustable air shocks, maybe > > less. Mine cost $30/wheel retail !! And adjustable height is > > just cool, high tech, both good selling points at a reasonable > > cost. You have to go Caddy price class to get it now. > > Jerry Dycus > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. > > > >
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--- Begin Message ---Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:Actually AGM batteries are VERY tollerant of high charging currents. I doubt your lester charger would hurt them at all. In many cases chargers are not able to keep up with AGMs in providing the charge in the same manner they were discharged. If you want a new one I would recommend a ZIVAN programmable one. That way you can change the charge curve according to the pack you have.Actually AGM batteries are very tolerant of high charging currents right up to a point. Once you pass that point (14.x volts per 12 volt battery) you really should drop your charge rate below the recombiner rate or you will vent the battery.Currently I recommend charging at moderate rates, slow-charging from 80% to full, and using regen for that every once in a while 30kw spike charge.Chris
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--- Begin Message ---I have a Continental Grand Prix tire on my racing bike that has a max inflation pressure of 175 pounds. It is rock-hard when inflated to that pressure and has almost zero rolling resistance. It also has a very small band of rubber around the center of the tire, which is what actually makes contact with the road. I reviewed Brandt's book last night and he states that more inflation is better - rockhard is good if you can stand the ride and handling doesn't suffer. Patrick >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/22/05 6:19:33 PM >>> While I can't say for motorcycle tires, bicycle tires (at least the good ones) are NOT stiff. In fact the really good ones you can fold up and stick in a pocket or seat bag. They might be hard when inflated, but the tire itself is not hard. > All this must be different for motorcycle and bicycle tires. They are > very > stiff in comparison to car tires.They must also have tracton at many > different angles for cornering. Hence the bikers maxim soft for handling > & > hard for economy. That's right out of the mouth of the owner of the best > cycle repair shop in San Francisco. KC Engineering. Lawrence > Rhodes..... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:03 AM > Subject: Re: Low rolling resistance tires > > >> >> >> >>>From: Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>> >>>I´d have thought they are made of harder material than ordinary tires! >>>Would you explain this a bit more, how come softer rolls with lower >>>resistance? (Or is this discussed already, I haven´t followed this >>> thread >>>very closely.) >>> >>>Osmo >> HI, Osmo >> >> Here's a copy of an explanation that I sent in an email on this list a >> few >> months ago: >> >> >> There are two different effects that provide the tire's stiffness and >> support the weight on the tire. One is the sidewall stiffness, and the >> other is the air pressure in the tire. >> >> For any tire, by far the most weight is supported by the air pressure. ( >> Think of what happens to a tire - even one with heavy sidewalls - if you >> let out the air). The percentage of the load supported by the >> sidewalls >> depends on the sidewall stiffness and the air pressure in the tire. >> >> Think of the air and the sidewalls as two springs in parallel. When the >> tire rolls, you are continually deflecting and releasing these two >> springs. The energy loss in a rolling tire is primarily caused by the >> damping in these springs. ( there is also some damping and energy loss >> in >> the tread) >> >> Fortunately, the air part of the spring has virtually no damping. But, >> the sidewall can have a lot. The energy loss ( that shows up as heat) >> in >> the sidewall depends on the stiffness of the sidewall and the damping in >> the sidewall. Higher stiffness means more force to compress the >> sidewall >> "spring", and more damping means a higher percentage of that compressing >> energy is lost in each rotation of the tire. >> >> So, more flexible sidewalls mean less energy loss, and lower damping >> sidewalls mean less energy loss. LRR tires try to do both of these. >> >> As an example, radial tires have much more flexible sidewalls than the >> old >> bias-ply tires and, in general, have substantially lower rolling >> resistance. >> >> >> So, when you increase the tire pressure, the tire deflects less, and >> more >> of the load is taken by the air pressure ( no loss) and less by the >> sidewalls ( higher loss), so the total energy loss is less. This is a >> simple way to understand why increasing the tire pressure results in >> lower >> rolling resistance ( and, why almost-flat tires have a lot of drag) >> >> Further, if you change to a wider tire ( of the same construction) at >> the >> same air pressure, the air will support more of the load, and the >> sidewall >> less. This is why - I believe - that wider tires (within reason) >> should >> have lower rolling resistance at the same air pressure. Does anyone >> know >> of any real data on this??? ( Yes - I know that bicycle racers use very >> narrow tire, but that's for reduced air drag and weight - like the front >> wheels on dragsters) >> >> Phil >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® >> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 >> > > -- If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---Has anyone tried vortex generators and/or strakes on their EV to produce an "aerodynamic boattail" to reduce drag from the rear of the vehicle? If so, what do you estimate the improvement in efficiency to be? Thanks, Patrick
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--- Begin Message ---Fully charge the batteries before storage. If possible recharge in mid February. Charge again before use in April. Charged batteries will not freeze at any temperature you will see in central NY. As batteries lose charge while sitting, a charge mid winter would certainly help. According to the Trojan website, flooded batteries at 100% charge will freeze at -92F, with 85% charge -62F, 62% charge, -16F and at 20% charge only +19F . Obviously it is important to keep them at 85% or more charge when stored over the winter. Similar chemistry works on AGMs as well. Lynn Adams See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Davidson Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 6:10 AM To: EV_Discussion_Group Subject: Cold storage of Batteries I live in Central NY State where during the winter months the ambient air temp rarely gets above zero degrees F. I store my EV from mid November until mid April. What are the proper methods of charging the batteries or protecting the batteries from freezing during this long term storage? The garage the EV in is not heated. I'm using 16 six volt lead acid batteries in my EV. What special attention do the batteries require during long term cold storage? Also, I may be shopping for a new charger. Nothing fancy. Something that will charge 96-120 VDC traction pack and is able to accommodate AGM batteries as well as "traditional" or "standard" 6/8/12VDC batteries. Any recommendations? I have three 30 year old Lester chargers. What is the general opinion of Lester chargers? I believe my Lester chargers would severely damage AGM batteries. Is this true? Enjoy your turkey! Don Davidson [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3<http://www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3>
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--- Begin Message ---Hello to Phil and All,I know this is getting off topic, but the hybrid bashers, most who have not even owned or driven one, need to be corrected.Phil Marino wrote:Nick -That is EPA mileage " testing" - they don't actually drive the cars on the road. EPA testing is way off for most cars, and especially for hybrids.Oh great...here we go again with this. Did you not read my post about this? Most 'everyone' I know who owns hybrids, get better mpg, not less, than the EPA ratings. My Honda was rated at 70 mpg. Go to Mike Chancey's EV Photo Album to see my Insight's dash reading of 92.5 mpg after 53 miles of driving! Friend Geoff Shepherd regularly gets 65-70 mpg in his '05 Prius. Where's the Echo that can even get close to this? Got some numbers for me? Take your Echo out, the car you think will hit within 17% of a hybrid, and do highway speeds of 55-65 mph up and over mild hills. Do this for 100 miles, and report back to us those 65+ mpg ratings you'll get.In Consumer Reports magazine ( October 05 issue) they show mileage test results ( actual driving results) for different cars, including - for mixed city and highway driving -Prius : 44 mpg overall ( 11 mpg less than EPA estimate) Echo : 38 mpg overall ( 2 MPG better than EPA estimate)You're using Consumer Reports magazine as a quality source? This discussion is getting more ridiculous. Consumer Reports has zero credibility in the automotive world....zero. They have enough trouble driving a toaster! Looks like they also have trouble driving a hybrid, too.So, according to actual testing, the Prius gets 16 % better fuel mileage then the Echo.No, according to the idiots at Consumer Reports.This almost exactly matches the numbers claimed by me and Joel in the previous couple of posts ( 17%) based on real driving experience from people on this list....after, just with some hand-waving, arbitrarily mileage (from previous post)I guess you just waved your hand and ignored my real driving experience as a person on this list? Can your Metros and Echos match an Insight's 85 mpg? Can they match the new gen Prius owners that can easily get 60+ mpg?Consumer reports is a non-profit organization that accepts no advertising - I have faith in their testing results - they have no ax to grind.Oh come on, wake up to these guys! No ax to grind? Maybe you're too young to remember their highly charged political bashing, their goofy tests that were proved wrong by real scientists, and their poor choices in cars. They picked the Pinto over a Datsun 510, you know, the Pinto that blew up when bumped a little too hard from behind, the car that had one of the poorest crash ratings of any car ever built, the car that accelerated 3 seconds slower to 60 than the Datsun that has a smaller motor! Where are all the Pintos now?....oh that's right, they all fell apart and are rusting heaps in scrap yards. Those 510's Consumer Reports rated lower than the Pinto? They're collectible and highly prized sedans that are still on the road, with huge groups of clubs based on the car. Consumer Reports really hit that one on the head, didn't they?In 2000, the year I bought my Insight, if memory serves me correctly, Consumer Reports rated the Insight at 54 mpg! Go to Insight Central, if you don't believe me, and check to see the average mpg owners are getting....none of this goofy Consumer Reports crap, these are real people who actually know something about the car.They also show ( in another chart in the same article) that the EPA prediction for the Honda Civic Hybrid is 48 MPG city , and their actual testing showed 26 MP city . In this case the EPA prediction is 85% higher than the actual value.My wife and I test drove a new Hybrid Civic when they first came out, and over 30+ miles of in town city driving, averaged 45 mpg. Yes, that is a little lower than the EPA ratings, but I wasn't driving it easy at all, and there were three people in the car. I ran numerous full throttle acceleration tests, purposefully pulled Portland's steep hills, and ran the AC on and off. We got more than double what those morons at Consumer Reports got. How does any thinking person get 26 mpg in a Honda Civic Hybrid? What did they do, leave the E brake on? The fact that Consumer Reports only got 26 mpg should make you question their competency. Do you blindly accept that a Honda Civic Hybrid only gets 26 mpg in the city? Did you 'really' accept this as fact?One of the reason for the current hybrid popularity is the inflated EPA numbers for them.No, the reason is satisfied owners who get even better mpg numbers than the EPA said the car would, and, because people are interested in driving cleaner machines.EPA needs to clean up their act.Yeah, I agree. they should come clean and go public with the fact that they were too low in their mileage numbers for the Honda Insight, because 70 mpg is way too low compared to what the car actually returns.Phil and Joel...how many friends do you have that actually own a hybrid? Ever spent time in one yourself? Let's add some credibility to this discussion and qualify ourselves. I 'have' driven the Echo, two times to be exact, and have spent more time behind the wheel of a Metro than I want to remember. How many Insights have you guys spent time with? Prius? Honda Civic Hybrid? Come on, fess up :-)Hey, Phil and Joel, let's have some fun. Why don't the two of you pile into that hybrid-matching Echo, and take me on. Want to compare it to my Insight? I'll take a handicap and run the AC/defroster at full tilt, and run with two passengers and full luggage. You guys can cheat and leave the AC off and run with an empty cargo area. We'll hit the Oregon mountain passes, do some freeway driving, and to make it more interesting, let's make the deal that we have to travel at least 700 miles on a single tank of gas. My Insight with it's 10.6 gallon tank will definitely have gas left over after 700 miles. It would be fun acclerating up the steep inclines as the electric motor jams in the torque to effortlessly propel my Insight up the grades, knowing you guys were behind me struggling to keep up were wringing that unassisted gas motor out, revving it to near redline (and sucking gas). It also, would be fun knowing that as I went down the other side of said mountain slope, regenned, and stuffed power into my hybrid's battery pack, that you guys were instead, smoking the brake shoes and pads as you threw away power heating up your regen-less friction brakes :-)Ready for this comparo? What's that you say....your Echo will run out of gas at the 400-450 mile marker?See Ya....John Wayland Satisfied hybrid owner getting way higher mpg than the EPA ratings
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--- Begin Message ---The headliner on my Jet Electrica has detached itself from the roof and is hanging down in the center of the car. Does anyone know of an easy way to reattach it? Thanks, Patrick
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--- Begin Message ---1. You can stick thumbtacks (preferably plastic) thru the cloth into the foam board. Sometimes you can make it into an interesting pattern. 2. Tack marks of super glue thru the cloth. 3. rip it out and use spray adhesive to reattach. Dont try an iron, I had a big iron mark when it melted thru. And you would have to explain everytime someone was in the car. Lyle Sloan --- Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The headliner on my Jet Electrica has detached > itself from the roof and > is hanging down in the center of the car. Does > anyone know of an easy > way to reattach it? > > Thanks, > > Patrick > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---On 11/23/05, John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello to Phil and All, > > I know this is getting off topic, but the hybrid bashers, most who have > not even owned or driven one, need to be corrected. I had no intention of bashing hybrids and I'm sorry you took my simple comment that way. I made a simple statement of curiousity regarding data that was posted to this list (48mpg) and data that agrees with that that I had seen at a while ago at: http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/ I was deliberately only speaking of MPG and my comment said that, I understand there are other considerations. You claim those numbers are incorrect. I don't have a problem with that. It was a simple comment on that hybrids were supposed to be revolutionary and I personally (and I may be among rather few in this, but that's ok) don't consider 35% to be revolutionary. You are claiming like 80% or so, though, which I would have to agree is excellent. I just have to wait 5 more years until the used ones drop far enough in price such that I can buy one :) Actually, by then I hope to have an EV. Thanks for the information and I hope you understand that I didn't intend to "bash" anything--it was simply a curiousity statement regarding some numbers. Unfortunately, apparently it was taken to be inflammatory. Best wishes, -joel
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--- Begin Message ---Refer this question to the Jet Electravan discussion group: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]/> I'm sure someone there can answer your question. Don Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Maston<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 11:38 AM Subject: Easy Headliner Repair? The headliner on my Jet Electrica has detached itself from the roof and is hanging down in the center of the car. Does anyone know of an easy way to reattach it? Thanks, Patrick<<attachment: MSN_dudes.jpg>>
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