EV Digest 4931
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to
make $ at this!
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: B381s and RE92s
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Easy Headliner Repair?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $
at this!
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cold storage of Batteries
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Toshiba's New Lithium-Ion Battery Recharges in Only One Minute
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Wilderness E.V. (e-volks.com) Opinions?
by "Bryan K. Walton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Wright Effect, Wrong Result? By Bill Moore
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: e-meter doesn't reset...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Toshiba's New Lithium-Ion Battery Recharges in Only One Minute
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Hybrid basher? not me.
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) WTB: Curtis 1221B Working or not
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: e-meter doesn't reset...
by "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: WTB: Curtis 1221B Working or not
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option) soooo
OT
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:22 AM 11/23/2005, you wrote:
Mr. Merz,
Consider these points:
2] 25 years ago, every auto maker demonized Ethanol as
as an engine destorying fuel even as an additive, but
now Ford touts that it will make 250,000 E85 vehicles
in 2006.
Doc Kennedy
That argument actually started in the 1920's.
Some info about lead and alcohol in gas.
http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/ethylwar/
http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Lead-History.htm
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
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I'd have to go for the B381s. The RE92s have a wear rating of only 160
versus the B381's 240. Also, the B381 has the lowest RR of any tire
that I can find published. If anyone has data on the RE92s, please send
it to the list. The weight capacity is the same for an equivalent size
tire, but the RE92 is available in some smaller sizes than the B381. If
your vehicle could use a smaller size, you might lose some efficiency
due to the aero losses of a larger size, but it's hard to determine how
much that would be.
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/22/05 2:01:22 PM >>>
Which are better tires? Which have the higher weight carrying
capacity?
Which are the lowest rolling resistance tire? Lawrence Rhodes....
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Patrick Maston wrote:
The headliner on my Jet Electrica has detached itself from the roof and
is hanging down in the center of the car. Does anyone know of an easy
way to reattach it?
In southern towns (where high roof temps cause most headliners to detach
eventually) you can find people willing to repair headliners for $40 and
a case of beer.
Basically all you need to do is get some 3m spray adhesive which is
available at most auto parts stores. Remove the cloth of the headliner
enough that you can get behind it. Follow the instructions on the
adhesive and glue the headliner back up.
The other option is many auto parts places sell colored plastic "thumb
tacks" that can be used to pin the headliner back up. Ugly but easy.
Mark
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Good Day, Peter and others:
I know the history. But despite the fact that $big companies made some
questionable decisions in the past, they will not be able to continue this
way as people are not only focussing on oil, but pollution and
environmental protection. Clean energy companies even in the US (like i.e.
the Wind Power Branch of GE) having their order books filled beyond
capacity and 'Global Warming' starts to be unignorable even for 'normal'
people. Some big oil companies are scrambling to diversify into alternate
energy (i.e. Chevron 'Will you join us' or BP 'Beyond Petroleum'). True,
this might be just a marketing thingy, but, during our evaluation, we had
the opportunity to talk to different car- and energy companies, foreign
and domestic and we met very interesting people. While I am not at liberty
to discuss that in greater detail, one should not believe that $bigcar or
$bigenergy are stupid. Yes, they are trying to squeeze every dime out of
oil and Mr. consumer and will tell everybody that there is no alternative
to oil. But they have realized that winds are changing. And they are
adjusting.
So - yes, there is a market for EVs. But I do not believe that any
newcomer without _significant_ financial backing will be able to
successfully penetrate a (even a small) mass market before facing stiff
competion from established manufacturers.
As usual, just my two cents.
Michaela
>> While I personally like the idea to start a small car manufacturer and
>> to
>> start producing EVs, there's one thing that came up during our
>> feasability
>> studies: What if, say in two or three years, Honda or Toyota or any
>> other
>> $company starts offering plugin-hybrids or even EVs? How will any small
>> business be able to gain significant market share against the big guys?
>
> Not going to happen. ALL of the major auto makers have built and sold
> EVs, because they were forced to by California law. As soon as they got
> California to change the law they imediately stopped producing EVs.
> They have decided that producing EVs is not in their best interest and I
> don't see them changing their minds any time soon.
>
> It's all about the dollars and they don't feel that EVs are as profitable
> as gas guzzelers.
>
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As Lynn posted, store them fully charged & properly watered and you will
be fine, especially if you can top them off once or twice over the
winter. However, come April remember that the batteries will have gotten
"lazy" - you will need to exercise them some to wake them back up. Start
out with short trip/charge cycles and work you way back up to full range.
On the charger, the Lester is a great unit if you don't mind it being
off-board and if you have flooded batteries (it will indeed toast AGMs).
The Lester (most likely) uses an dV/dt algorithm to determine when to
stop charging - this has the advantage that it naturally adjusts for
changes in battery age, temperature, etc - something that many of the
'modern' chargers have a tough time with.
Don Davidson wrote:
I live in Central NY State where during the winter months the ambient air temp
rarely gets above zero degrees F.
I store my EV from mid November until mid April. What are the proper methods of
charging the batteries or protecting the batteries from freezing during this
long term storage? The garage the EV in is not heated. I'm using 16 six volt
lead acid batteries in my EV. What special attention do the batteries require
during long term cold storage?
Also, I may be shopping for a new charger. Nothing fancy. Something that will charge 96-120 VDC
traction pack and is able to accommodate AGM batteries as well as "traditional" or
"standard" 6/8/12VDC batteries. Any recommendations? I have three 30 year old Lester
chargers. What is the general opinion of Lester chargers? I believe my Lester chargers would
severely damage AGM batteries. Is this true?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
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From: "Bob Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The purpose of stating the inventions capability is not necessarily to
assume it will be used that way- but that it CAN be.
That means to me you could use less batteries and charge more. Since
charging is fast no penalty for a short range. It's not the range that is a
problem it's the charging time. LR......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Remy Chevalier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
NiMH :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/hurryupandwait.html
ET List exclusive...
(with a little help from my friends...)
Stanford Ovshinsky, founder of Ovonics, opened a can of worms when he let
loose his Nickel Metal Hydride battery design on the world in the late 80's.
Little did he know of the evil powers that would be brought down to bear on
him over the next three decades as a result of that charming little stunt.
Whether Stanford will be remembered as a good guy or a bad guy in this
passion play, a story no less epic than saving our dear ol'planet, is still
a matter for historians to chronicle, debate and decide. But one thing is
for certain, Stanford's invention sowed the seeds of destruction. The
battery suppression cabal has finally come to light and begun to unravel.
You might call this article its "coup de grace."
I certainly want to thank all those who were involved in putting it
together. This campaign took months, and quite a bit of finesse, so as not
to attract too much undue attention onto ourselves until we were ready to
rock the boat and not fall in the shark infested waters. There is a lot more
going on below the surface than we are at liberty to tell you right now for
fear of jeopardizing our position. Just let me tell you it has not been
easy, as this article has the potential to spark the largest, widest whistle
blowing campaign the automobile industry has ever experienced.
One thing is for certain, with this article the fat lady sings. It's the
beginning of the end for the internal combustion engine, and for all the
companies who still devise their livelyhood from it. No more cartels of evil
oil men will ever be able to suppress technologies with the potential to
save the planet again. Those days are over.
Pirates and relics.
Mark my words, with this article online, all the dominos fall... it contains
all the keywords necessary to gain us the ability to set up state-of-the-art
battery manufacturing all over the world, free and unimpeded by any further
neferarious battery licensing constraints, limiting battery efficiency for
the sole benefit of antiquated economic models. If you don't believe me,
read on...
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/hurryupandwait.html
and as George Clooney would say... Good Night and Good Luck!
RemyC
ET webed
(We want our Sponge TV!)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi everybody,
I'm looking for opinions of the EV conversions offered by
Wilderness EV (www.e-volks.com). I know that these cars tend to have
shorter ranges and lower maximum speeds. Other than that, what are
people's opinions of these EVs? They say that I could add more
batteries to increase the range/speed.
Has anybody purchased any of these vehicles? I'm guessing I
would need to add at least four more batteries as I would need a top
speed of at least 50mph with range of at least 30 miles.
I'm located in Iowa, and with Wilderness EV in Utah, any
opinions regarding this company would be most appreciated. If I
purchased one of thier EVs, I would probably do it sight unseen.
Thanks!
Bryan Walton
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From:
http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=12&blogid=83&archive=1
Wednesday | 02 November 2005
The Wright Effect, Wrong Result?
By Bill Moore
Shortly after the Wright Brothers demonstrated powered flight, they applied
for a patent to protect their discovery, which wasn't on the airplane
itself, but on how to control roll using wing warping. In doing so, they may
have set back aviation for years.
Anyone who attempted to emulate the Wright Brothers invention in America --
the Europeans refused to recognize the patent -- found themselves facing a
potential lawsuit if they didn't pay the Wrights their due. Having risked
their fortune, their reputations and their lives to achieve one of mankind's
oldest ambitions, they were certainly entitled to reasonable compensation
for their vision, persistence and courage.
But eventually, technology would pass them by; the Wright name would not be
among the aerospace giants that build the world's aircraft and space
vehicles.
Patents are an invaluable way to incentivize individuals and companies to
innovate with the hope being that they will be rewarded, perhaps richly, for
their industry and investment. To quote the Bible, "The laborer is worthy of
his hire".
But what happens if patents become a stumbling block to innovation?
Consider the problem Ford Motor Company encountered when developing the
Escape Hybrid. While they engineered their drive within the company,
Toyota's pioneering efforts on the Prius had generated so many patents, that
Ford didn't want to risk future patent lawsuits. So, they reached an
agreement with their Japanese rival, swapping patents as insurance against
costly future legal action.
It's been suggested that the reason GM and DaimlerChrysler, along with VW
and BMW, decided to develop their "dual hybrid" drive system was to find a
way around Toyota and Honda's patent lock on the technology.
But what goes around, comes around. It is very possible that the reason
carmakers like Toyota and Honda aren't developing advanced plug-in hybrids
isn't because they don't believe in it.
It may be because, legally, they can't.
How's that?
All production hybrids today use nickel metal hydride batteries, a
technology developed and patented by Energy Conversion Devices (ECD), whose
Cobasys spin-off joint-venture with ChevronTexaco owns the worldwide patent
rights. To its credit and its stockholders benefit, the company has been
aggressive in protecting those rights suing the likes of Panasonic, Sanyo,
Toshiba, and Yuasa, forcing them to become licensees who must pay a 3%
royalty to the company for each battery they build.
From research done by Charles Whalen and others, it appears that those
licenses are very restrictive. They apparently limit the power of the
batteries and their applications, with Cobasys reserving the right to be the
sole manufacturer of batteries for electric-drive vehicles in North America.
In a limited circulation, private email, Whalen -- who is an occasional EV
World contributor -- speculated that "although the specific terms are
confidential, this stipulation in Panasonic's license restricting it to
producing only 'certain types' of NiMH batteries for 'certain transportation
applications' is widely interpreted and understood to mean that Panasonic
can only produce HEV (hybrid-electric vehicle) batteries (<10Ah) but not BEV
(battery electric vehicles) batteries (>80Ah) for vehicles sold in North
America until 2015. Where this line is specifically drawn in Panasonic's
license, whether it's closer to 10Ah or closer to 80Ah, is an interesting
question, which of course we don't know the answer to. But the answer to
that question is indeed very important because it is in that middle ground
that we find the capacity range for PHEVs".
Panasonic is the exclusive manufacturer of the batteries used in the Prius,
Highlander Hybrid and Lexus RX400h hybrids. Whalen is suggesting that the
reason Toyota isn't interested in building plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) isn't
because they don't want to. It's because they can't under Panasonic's
license agreement with Cobasys. A plug-in hybrid that has a 20 to 60 miles
of electric-only range would require a battery pack much larger than the 10
amp hour restriction of the license.
Whalen asserts that Panasonic does, in fact, have a 95Ah battery that could
be used in plug-in hybrids, but that it has mysteriously disappeared from
Panasonic's online catalog. He believes the reason has to do with the $30
million judgment against Panasonic and Toyota for patent infringement.
This is also why Toyota stopped making the RAV4 EV. It too required a
battery pack much larger than the 10Ah limitation of the Cobasys license.
While all this certainly seems plausible, only the parties involved know the
real facts of the case. Toyota claims that the Panasonic NiMH battery pack
used in the RAV4 EV costs $30,000, which would certainly limit its
marketability in the real world, not to mention the economic viability of
integrating it into a plug-in Prius or the future Lexus GS 450h.
That being said, Toyota recently bought out General Motors' 20 percent stake
in Fuji Heavy Industries, makers of the Subaru line of compact cars. Why?
Maybe it has something to do with Fuji's partnership with NEC to develop a
practical, affordable, electric car using NEC's newly developed lithium-ion
battery.
Sanyo, suppliers of the NiMH batteries used in the Ford Escape Hybrid,
recently predicted that lithium-ion would be the preferred chemistry for
future hybrids, not nickel metal hydride.
Could it be that the advantage of lithium over NiMH isn't just because of
its improved energy and power density on a volumetric basis, but that it
also frees carmakers from the restrictions placed on them by Cobasys'
license?
Lithium is still a relatively unproven technology in automotive applications
compared to NiMH, which has demonstrated excellent durability and
reliability. But it would appear that the handwriting is on the wall for
this one-time breakthrough chemistry.
Auto Week recently wrote, "Sanyo Electric Co. predicts that by 2010, the
majority of hybrid vehicles will use lithium-ion batteries. Currently, all
hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries.
"Toyota Motor Corp., General Motors and Ford Motor Co. executives endorsed
his prediction".
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--- Begin Message ---
Ummm where's the Positive lead going??
And Do you read drive amps as negative amps and charge amps as positive?
I just did this trick on my Fiero.. that has been apart for months and
years.
The shunt leads where swaped. So it charged as I was driving, and discharged
as I charged... Ooops!
Make sure you can read amps, then power everything down, and swap the shut
leads. They should be Green and Orange.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:22 PM
Subject: e-meter doesn't reset...
> I just got my Honda EV project on the road and it runs great, but my
> e-meter will not reset after charge.
> my pack is a string of 7 12v
> I am using a K&W BC20 charger no line booster.
> I have wired it per e-meter instructions, the 12v batt is isolated from
> the main pack.
>
> I have set the following e-meter parameters:
> battery capacity 100Ah
> charged volts 95v
> charged current factor 4% (charging current must be below 4amps)
> F09 the discharge floor - 50%
> pre-scaler 2 (0-500v)
>
> I am certain that my charger is bringing the pack up to full charge I get
> good specific gravity readings after a 7 or 8 hour charge and 8 hour rest.
> the e-meter reads 96v and the current draw on the charger is something
> between zero and 1 amp at the end of the charge cycle.
>
> questions:
> 1. why isn't the e-meter resetting?
> 2. shouldn't the e-meter displays the amps coming in during charging? It
> doesn't. I have the charger negative wired to the battery side of the
> shunt and the e-meter HV- to the load side of the shunt
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Dave
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Or one very Big Charger...
For a very short amount of time...
leading to charging many EVs is a hurry.
AKA a electric Gas station....
You pay for Speed.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
> Mark Fowler wrote:
>
> > The follow on from this is that it will be technically possible to make
> > an EV that has the range of an ICE car (thanks to the light weight and
> > high capacity of lithium) that is able to be 'refuelled' (albeit to
> > about 80%) in a matter of minutes.
>
> True, but forget about doing it for an EV.
>
> A 2Ah battery in a power tool can be recharged to 80% capacity
> in minutes if supplied 10C rate (20A to recharge in 6 min in this
> case).
>
> For an EV with 100Ah battery this means 1000A charging rate, or
> for 200V pack is 200kW charger. (mind you this is the power
> consumed by average small neighborhood).
>
> Good luck finding suitable charge station.
>
> Victor
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Guys...
Wayland is NOT the Hybrid owner to tangle with.... I have Beat the crap out
of his Insight.. and it got 45 miles to the gallon.
That's Full throttle and full RPM to Red line on most of the shifts... Tunes
on Way loud... windows down, doing 70 mph on a two lane road.
Madman mode... and we got 40 something...
Totally impressive...
Been there done that, I want a Insight...
What doesn't make sense is why the EPA Tests are so screwed up...They just
don't come close to what the cars actually get.
Hey and like a Real electric, it takes some driving skill to get the most
milage from a charge, the Hybrids take a little learning to get the most
also.
The Car and Drive Cramudgens... and the EPA and Consumer Reports... maybe
they don't want Hybrids to suceed fro some reason.. But up here in the
Northwest we love them and
know better than the mainstream media BS... and the waiting lines are long
and we have to pay premiums just to get one.
Why...because the work.. they do just what Honda and Toyota say they do,and
they do it better with a little thought to actually driving them.
I would love to get a Ford Hybrid Escape... and dial it in, and maybe add
some more watts to the pack. I was ready to trade in my trusty Ranger, then
when I parked next to one it is large than my Ranger, 4 wheel drive only...
and just another SUV. That means with just front wheel dirve and a lowering
kit... Ford could really make a nice Hybrid Ranger.... Oh Well, good ideas
seam to be in short supply in Detroit these days.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
> Hello to Phil and All,
>
> I know this is getting off topic, but the hybrid bashers, most who have
> not even owned or driven one, need to be corrected.
>
> Phil Marino wrote:
>
> > Nick -
> >
> > That is EPA mileage " testing" - they don't actually drive the cars
> > on the road. EPA testing is way off for most cars, and especially for
> > hybrids.
>
>
> Oh great...here we go again with this. Did you not read my post about
> this? Most 'everyone' I know who owns hybrids, get better mpg, not less,
> than the EPA ratings. My Honda was rated at 70 mpg. Go to Mike Chancey's
> EV Photo Album to see my Insight's dash reading of 92.5 mpg after 53
> miles of driving! Friend Geoff Shepherd regularly gets 65-70 mpg in his
> '05 Prius. Where's the Echo that can even get close to this? Got some
> numbers for me? Take your Echo out, the car you think will hit within
> 17% of a hybrid, and do highway speeds of 55-65 mph up and over mild
> hills. Do this for 100 miles, and report back to us those 65+ mpg
> ratings you'll get.
>
> >
> >
> > In Consumer Reports magazine ( October 05 issue) they show mileage
> > test results ( actual driving results) for different cars, including -
> > for mixed city and highway driving -
> >
> > Prius : 44 mpg overall ( 11 mpg less than EPA estimate)
> >
> > Echo : 38 mpg overall ( 2 MPG better than EPA estimate)
>
>
> You're using Consumer Reports magazine as a quality source? This
> discussion is getting more ridiculous. Consumer Reports has zero
> credibility in the automotive world....zero. They have enough trouble
> driving a toaster! Looks like they also have trouble driving a hybrid,
too.
>
> >
> > So, according to actual testing, the Prius gets 16 % better fuel
> > mileage then the Echo.
>
>
> No, according to the idiots at Consumer Reports.
>
> > This almost exactly matches the numbers claimed by me and Joel in
> > the previous couple of posts ( 17%) based on real driving experience
> > from people on this list....after, just with some hand-waving,
> > arbitrarily mileage (from previous post)
>
>
> I guess you just waved your hand and ignored my real driving experience
> as a person on this list? Can your Metros and Echos match an Insight's
> 85 mpg? Can they match the new gen Prius owners that can easily get 60+
> mpg?
>
> >
> > Consumer reports is a non-profit organization that accepts no
> > advertising - I have faith in their testing results - they have no ax
> > to grind.
>
>
>
> Oh come on, wake up to these guys! No ax to grind? Maybe you're too
> young to remember their highly charged political bashing, their goofy
> tests that were proved wrong by real scientists, and their poor choices
> in cars. They picked the Pinto over a Datsun 510, you know, the Pinto
> that blew up when bumped a little too hard from behind, the car that had
> one of the poorest crash ratings of any car ever built, the car that
> accelerated 3 seconds slower to 60 than the Datsun that has a smaller
> motor! Where are all the Pintos now?....oh that's right, they all fell
> apart and are rusting heaps in scrap yards. Those 510's Consumer Reports
> rated lower than the Pinto? They're collectible and highly prized sedans
> that are still on the road, with huge groups of clubs based on the car.
> Consumer Reports really hit that one on the head, didn't they?
>
> In 2000, the year I bought my Insight, if memory serves me correctly,
> Consumer Reports rated the Insight at 54 mpg! Go to Insight Central, if
> you don't believe me, and check to see the average mpg owners are
> getting....none of this goofy Consumer Reports crap, these are real
> people who actually know something about the car.
>
> >
> > They also show ( in another chart in the same article) that the EPA
> > prediction for the Honda Civic Hybrid is 48 MPG city , and their
> > actual testing showed 26 MP city . In this case the EPA prediction
> > is 85% higher than the actual value.
>
>
> My wife and I test drove a new Hybrid Civic when they first came out,
> and over 30+ miles of in town city driving, averaged 45 mpg. Yes, that
> is a little lower than the EPA ratings, but I wasn't driving it easy at
> all, and there were three people in the car. I ran numerous full
> throttle acceleration tests, purposefully pulled Portland's steep hills,
> and ran the AC on and off. We got more than double what those morons at
> Consumer Reports got. How does any thinking person get 26 mpg in a Honda
> Civic Hybrid? What did they do, leave the E brake on? The fact that
> Consumer Reports only got 26 mpg should make you question their
> competency. Do you blindly accept that a Honda Civic Hybrid only gets 26
> mpg in the city? Did you 'really' accept this as fact?
>
> >
> > One of the reason for the current hybrid popularity is the inflated
> > EPA numbers for them.
>
>
> No, the reason is satisfied owners who get even better mpg numbers than
> the EPA said the car would, and, because people are interested in
> driving cleaner machines.
>
> > EPA needs to clean up their act.
>
>
> Yeah, I agree. they should come clean and go public with the fact that
> they were too low in their mileage numbers for the Honda Insight,
> because 70 mpg is way too low compared to what the car actually returns.
>
> Phil and Joel...how many friends do you have that actually own a hybrid?
> Ever spent time in one yourself? Let's add some credibility to this
> discussion and qualify ourselves. I 'have' driven the Echo, two times to
> be exact, and have spent more time behind the wheel of a Metro than I
> want to remember. How many Insights have you guys spent time with?
> Prius? Honda Civic Hybrid? Come on, fess up :-)
>
> Hey, Phil and Joel, let's have some fun. Why don't the two of you pile
> into that hybrid-matching Echo, and take me on. Want to compare it to my
> Insight? I'll take a handicap and run the AC/defroster at full tilt, and
> run with two passengers and full luggage. You guys can cheat and leave
> the AC off and run with an empty cargo area. We'll hit the Oregon
> mountain passes, do some freeway driving, and to make it more
> interesting, let's make the deal that we have to travel at least 700
> miles on a single tank of gas. My Insight with it's 10.6 gallon tank
> will definitely have gas left over after 700 miles. It would be fun
> acclerating up the steep inclines as the electric motor jams in the
> torque to effortlessly propel my Insight up the grades, knowing you guys
> were behind me struggling to keep up were wringing that unassisted gas
> motor out, revving it to near redline (and sucking gas). It also, would
> be fun knowing that as I went down the other side of said mountain
> slope, regenned, and stuffed power into my hybrid's battery pack, that
> you guys were instead, smoking the brake shoes and pads as you threw
> away power heating up your regen-less friction brakes :-)
>
> Ready for this comparo? What's that you say....your Echo will run out of
> gas at the 400-450 mile marker?
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
> Satisfied hybrid owner getting way higher mpg than the EPA ratings
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And I am ,of course working on shortening the charging times....
I can do 30 Kw right now... 75Kw when they fianally get me 480 in my shop.
150kw is on the horizon....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Toshiba's New Lithium-Ion Battery Recharges in Only One Minute
> From: "Bob Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> The purpose of stating the inventions capability is not necessarily to
> assume it will be used that way- but that it CAN be.
>
> That means to me you could use less batteries and charge more. Since
> charging is fast no penalty for a short range. It's not the range that is
a
> problem it's the charging time. LR......
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EVLN(I would like to see plug-in hybrid model as an option)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 08:18:32 -0800
Hello to Phil and All,
I know this is getting off topic, but the hybrid bashers, most who have not
even owned or driven one, need to be corrected.
John - I have never "bashed" hybrids, and, in fact, I think that we would
all be better off if people drove more of them. I think they're great cars.
At the moment thought, the price/benefit ratio is higher than I would like
to pay.
But, I do have a problem with unsupported, exaggerated claims , used in an
effort to prove peoples' arguments.
Unlike EPA, Consumer Reports actually drove these cars and measured the fuel
mileage.
The fact that you disagree with some of their ratings and recommendations
about other cars, years ago, has no relevance to their test data. I am not
quoting their opinions or suggestions - just the results of testing that
they performed.
Your claim of the mileage you get with your Insight is also irrelevant to
this discussion - I was not talking about the Insight. I was setting the
record straight on the Prius vs conventional car mileage question. And,
your claim of your mileage is just that - an undocumented claim on a single
car by a single driver. In your case, a highly skilled driver - not the
average Joe on the road.
No, according to the idiots at Consumer Reports.
Now, John - no need to start using names, here.
This almost exactly matches the numbers claimed by me and Joel in the
previous couple of posts ( 17%) based on real driving experience from
people on this list....after, just with some hand-waving, arbitrarily
mileage (from previous post)
I guess you just waved your hand and ignored my real driving experience as
a person on this list? Can your Metros and Echos match an Insight's 85 mpg?
Can they match the new gen Prius owners that can easily get 60+ mpg?
We're not talking about matching mileage. I was just presenting real test
data about what these cars can do.
And, I don't know where your information comes from. Anecdotal data from a
few drivers, who may be relying on the onboard instruments, doesn't
constitute reliable data. And, people who spend a lot of money on something
tend to exaggerate the benefits to justify the purchase.
Consumer reports is a non-profit organization that accepts no advertising
- I have faith in their testing results - they have no ax to grind.
Oh come on, wake up to these guys! No ax to grind? Maybe you're too young
to remember their highly charged political bashing, their goofy tests that
were proved wrong by real scientists, and their poor choices in cars. They
picked the Pinto over a Datsun 510, you know, the Pinto that blew up when
bumped a little too hard from behind, the car that had one of the poorest
crash ratings of any car ever built, the car that accelerated 3 seconds
slower to 60 than the Datsun that has a smaller motor! Where are all the
Pintos now?....oh that's right, they all fell apart and are rusting heaps
in scrap yards. Those 510's Consumer Reports rated lower than the Pinto?
They're collectible and highly prized sedans that are still on the road,
with huge groups of clubs based on the car. Consumer Reports really hit
that one on the head, didn't they?
Again, none of this has anything to do with their mileage testing.
They also show ( in another chart in the same article) that the EPA
prediction for the Honda Civic Hybrid is 48 MPG city , and their actual
testing showed 26 MP city . In this case the EPA prediction is 85%
higher than the actual value.
My wife and I test drove a new Hybrid Civic when they first came out, and
over 30+ miles of in town city driving, averaged 45 mpg.
Wait a minute - did you accurately pump and measure 0.66 gallons of gas to
come to this conclusion? Or, did you go by some readout in the car? To
really have measured this, you would have had to top up the car before and
after your drive, and even then, you can't "top up" the tank with that much
accuracy.
And, even if you did, it's a single claimed data point.
One of the reason for the current hybrid popularity is the inflated EPA
numbers for them.
No, the reason is satisfied owners who get even better mpg numbers than the
EPA said the car would, and, because people are interested in driving
cleaner machines.
If that's true, great ! Then people will buy more of them, instead of gas
guzzlers. That would be a good thing for us all.
EPA needs to clean up their act.
Yeah, I agree. they should come clean and go public with the fact that they
were too low in their mileage numbers for the Honda Insight, because 70 mpg
is way too low compared to what the car actually returns.
Check out this article in USA Today :
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-03-hybridmileage_x.htm
The point of the article is that hybrid owners are actually getting much
lower mileage than the EPA claims. Here are some excerpts:
" In November, Andrew Bartell, a San Anselmo, Calif., information
technology project manager, bought a 2004 Honda Civic hybrid with an
Environmental Protection Agency fuel economy rating of 47 mpg in city
driving, 48 on the highway. But Bartell says he actually is getting between
34 and 36 mpg.
He says Honda told him the EPA rating is based on a test of "ideal" driving
conditions. "The stated mileage is a complete lie. ... I do not know of a
single road in the U.S. that would qualify as ideal," Bartell says.
Honda spokesman Andy Boyd says Bartell isn't the only Civic hybrid buyer
complaining. In fact, Boyd says he gets between 39 mpg and 41 mpg in his
Civic hybrid."
And, about the Prius :
"Toyota has been racking up complaints from owners beefing about not hitting
the 51 mph highway/60 mpg city mileage advertised for its Prius hybrid. Low-
to mid-40s is closer to reality."
This is from usatoday. Are they idiots, also?
And, notice that the actual mileage that drivers are reporting are pretty
close to Consumer Reports' tests.
And this is from the Washington Post:
" Some consumers have been particularly upset with the government's ratings
on gas-electric hybrids, such as the Toyota Prius and the Ford Escape. Some
owners of such vehicles have said they get far lower city mileage than the
EPA estimates because of quirks in the testing system."
If you web search under Prius, epa, mileage, complaints; you will find
hundreds of articles about hybrid owners conplaining about their mileage
being much lowerl than the EPA numbers. This is real mileage, by real
drivers. So many complaints about the Prius that Toyota is investigating the
problem. You can't blame this all on people leaving on the parking brake.
I agree that hybrid cars are a good idea ( and plug-in hybrids would be evem
better) . I just think we should be honest about their actual performance.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "SFEVA"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:53 AM
Subject: NiHM :: The Battery's Toll on Detroit's Future!
> From: Remy Chevalier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> and as George Clooney would say... Good Night and Good Luck!
>
Keep in mind Mr. Clooney drives a Tango... that is charged with a PFC30 and
Regcentered charging....
Madman...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
Are there any broken (or unneeded) Curtis 1221B's out
there?
Let me know thanks!
Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to mention... I am using a dc-dc converter to power the e-meter.
it is wired to the 12v battery per instructions/diagram 12v+ goes to pin
5 on the e-meter.
Dave
>
> On Nov 22, 2005, at 10:22 PM, Dave & Deb wrote:
>
>> 2. shouldn't the e-meter displays the amps coming in during charging?
>> It
>> doesn't. I have the charger negative wired to the battery side of the
>> shunt and the e-meter HV- to the load side of the shunt
>>
>
> OH!!
>
> Two other things.
> 1. The power for the e-meter needs to be isolated from the vehicle 12
> volt system. This is important because the meter power negative input
> in NOT isolated from the pack negative.
> 2. Please disconnect the e-meter positive connection before you play
> with any of the wires on the negative side. Think NO smoke.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Contact Bob Anderson @ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
He has several take-offs from electric cars he's built.
Good luck,
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/23/05 10:33:52 AM >>>
Hello
Are there any broken (or unneeded) Curtis 1221B's out
there?
Let me know thanks!
Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was a simple comment on that hybrids were supposed to be
revolutionary and I personally (and I may be among rather few in this,
but that's ok) don't consider 35% to be revolutionary.
This is kinda out of left field, but I can only read that (the revolutionary
part) so many times over the last week without going into fits... How lucky you
must be to live in a world where a MERE 35% is evolutionary!
It must be full of flying cars and babies that burp themselves, since evolution is a continual
process, and at a minuscule %30 -->continual<-- improvement, technological advance would
make "Murphy's Law" look like a snail's acceleration profile.
(sorry everyone, I feel better now)
At least in my field of engineering, where we are not constrained by most of
those pesky laws of physics and various entropy effects, and have followed
Murphy's Law lately, which mechanical engineering never has (AFAIK), a %30
improvement in something could actually be classified as revolutionary
(depending on previous advances).
Now considering that I am currently driving a 1988 car a bigger then a Echo,
and get a steady 31MPG city / 36MPG highway, that leaves my old Honda with NO
computer whatsoever, a carburetor on a 2 liter engine pulling 2600lbs for gosh
sake, at only %15 - %20 behind a new FI Echo mileage... ugh
So evidently, Hybridization of current ICE cars is an advance equivalent to the
last 20 odd years of engine research and fuel injection AND computerized
management. Sounds exactly like a revolutionary technology to me... and any
other degree carrying engineer worth his salt, no matter what field they are in.
I think maybe some people have let themselves fall into the "now now now"
marketing hype of the last decade and have some seriously warped perspectives. The next
time a person feels like belittling someone else's life work (which it was, of course),
maybe they should just take a deep breath, open their eyes and take a good hard look
around themselves, and try to achieve a proper level of insight (ooo, a pun!) into how
hard this whole technology stuff can be sometimes.
I say Kudos to those hard working souls who have done in a few short years what
took previous engineers decades to do... increase mileage by at least %20. ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:37:30 -0800, "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What about a "gas station" that had 480V 400A 3-phase power, such as
>available to small industrial areas. Would this be a possibility?
Sure, but the demand charge would eat you alive. For example, my
utility charges $8.88 per KW of demand, averaged over a 30 minute
period for everything over 50kw. For that 200kw charger, the charge
would be (200-50) * 8.88 = $1,332 in addition to the normal rate for
the kwh used. This is if you only demand that much for one averaging
period a month. They have the option in their tariff to change to a
15 minute average period for peaky loads and to add additional
surcharges for "pulse type loads". That sort of load for just a few
minutes would definitely qualify.
It's not unusual for a utility to refuse to service this kind of load.
That much of a step-change in load would require spinning up some fast
reserve, only to shut it down in a few minutes. They'll either refuse
to service it or make it prohibitively expensive.
The usual industrial solution for pulse loads is to have on-site
storage - an MG set with a large flywheel or batteries/inverters or
high inertia on-site generation - usually a diesel generator set with
a large flywheel.
Several years ago I designed just such a setup for my friendly local
electric motor shop so that they could start and run multi-hundred HP
motors from their 200 amp, 240 volt service. The utility forced this
on them after they blew the pole primary fuses on a number of
occasions. We built a diesel generator with a flywheel that weighs
several hundred pounds. The generator is an induction motor spun by
the generator and excited by the line to make an induction generator.
The utilities are doing everything they can to discourage impulse type
loads for obvious reasons. If pure BEVs ever caught on to any degree,
rates would heavily incent overnight charging.
Now if we can discuss my design for a backyard nuke, THEN we can talk
about impulse charging :-)
John
>
>
>Don
>
>
>
>Victoria, BC, Canada
>
>See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
>www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
>Sent: November 23, 2005 1:41 AM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Lithium nanothingies (was Toshiba's New Lithium...)
>
>Mark Fowler wrote:
>
>> The follow on from this is that it will be technically possible to
>> make an EV that has the range of an ICE car (thanks to the light
>> weight and high capacity of lithium) that is able to be 'refuelled'
>> (albeit to about 80%) in a matter of minutes.
>
>True, but forget about doing it for an EV.
>
>A 2Ah battery in a power tool can be recharged to 80% capacity in minutes if
>supplied 10C rate (20A to recharge in 6 min in this case).
>
>For an EV with 100Ah battery this means 1000A charging rate, or for 200V
>pack is 200kW charger. (mind you this is the power consumed by average small
>neighborhood).
>
>Good luck finding suitable charge station.
>
>Victor
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
