EV Digest 4938
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EV fed tax credit time and EV charging station up to $100,000 deductions
Madman !!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Alltrax 7245 controller - man what a reversing experience!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) amp/hrs to w/hrs?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV racing
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Axion Power International, Inc. was Tamboril Cigar Company.
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wright Effect, Wrong Result? By Bill Moore
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV racing
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Low rolling resistance tires (GEM & Think wheels)
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: amp/hrs to w/hrs?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: what about battery swapping ? was: Look at fast charging from the
other end of the plug
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Question about MK battery AGMs and Gel cells
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: amp.hrs to w.hrs?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: amp/hrs to w/hrs?
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: amp/hrs to w/hrs?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: amp/hrs to w/hrs?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Is anyone on the list using 6-volt AGMs or Gel Cells?
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: what about battery swapping ? was: Look at fast charging from the
other end of the plug
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Low rolling resistance tires (GEM & Think wheels)
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Myers motors update
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: what about battery swapping ? was: Look at fast charging from the
other end of the plug
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) (no subject)
by Jeff & Teri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Thrift - T
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Motor fit issue - Late model Geo
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: Myers motors update
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Myers motors update
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Drilling/tapping hard steel shaft
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Myers motors update
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Time to get some money back from the Feds if you haven't
yet on your EV. As I see it it doesn't matter if it's a conversion or factory.
10% credit up to $4k on your costs. Not great but beats a kick in the butt ;^D
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/view_ind_fed.cgi?afdc/307/0
$ 100,000 tax deduction for setting up charging stations
Madman !!!
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe on some. On mine it can be activated by a switch. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: Alltrax 7245 controller - man what a reversing experience!
There is a 1/2 backward speed function to active on AXE program interface.
cordialement,
Philippe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK so the GEM is the same as the Th!nk but what standard bolt pattern fits.
Honda, Toyota or ???? Thanks for the info. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: Low rolling resistance tires
Ricky wrote:
That was a Think Neighbor he put them on (sorry should have specified).
They >have the same 4 X 4" bolt pattern as the GEM's. You'd have to do
the same thing >I did, get wheel adapter-spacers in order to make normal
car size wheels work
Link for adapters if anyone needs them:
http://www.airbagit-store.com/product_category.asp?id=513
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Say for example the motor uses 200 w/hrs per mile.
The Orbital is listed as having 50 amp/hr. What range would a pack of
29 of these have?
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
1,450 amp/hrs divided by 200w/hrs per mile equals what? How is this done?
The draw back to having 29 Orbitals is the cost of $2,842 and a weight
of 1,189 lbs.
I was thinking about using Odyssey model PC625. 29 of them at a cost
of $2,260, and a weight of "only" 383 lbs...
Each battery is listed as only having 16ah(vs's 50ah of the Orbitals)
though. The $2200 question is if these batteries will give me an
acceptable range or not..
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/ody_b.asp?routine=ody_spec&brandID=5
http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=343&subcat=477
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Brian D.Hall wrote:
What a busy year it has been, it's nearing the end of 2005 and I have not
gone to the drags, Racing yet!
One last event at Infineon Raceway on Sunday and I'm trying to get ICE
breaker ready.
Hey Brian, the way the weather's looking here in the Pacific NW with
heavy snow in the mountains and the nighttime temps in the Portland
metro area in the 30 degree range as we get up to iced-over windshields
and such, that name ICE breaker would be a perfect name for anyone
'trying' to race!
New line lock installed, new Orbitals, new paint and some
more tuning of the Z2k and I'm off.
OH-oh, I'm jealous! The drag racing season was just too short for me
this year! Yeah, we had fun, but man, Tim and I weren't ready to put the
Zombie away yet!
By the way, the voltage is going up, I
was planning on running 192 volts this week end, but I'm having trouble
keeping the front wheels on the ground at 144 volts ,so I guess I will see
what I can break with this low voltage car and just keep raising the voltage
until the axels go. %^). My EV grin is out of control.
OK, you've confused me now....are you running at 144V this Sunday, or
192V? I 'love' hearing that you are powering it up ever higher....go for
it! Good luck, be safe and keep us all updated.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry if these guys are old news
http://www.axionpower.com/
The thing is, their August 2005 Prospectus is soooo much fun.
Lotza share capital sloshing around and law suit, oh my!
http://www.axionpower.com/pdfs/8.18.05.Prospectus.pdf
What the fuss is all about:
"Our e3 Supercells replace the lead-based negative electrodes in
conventional lead-acid batteries with nanoporous carbon electrodes
similar to those found in advanced supercapacitors.
The result is a new class of hybrid energy storage device that offers
both battery and supercapacitor performance characteristics and has a
much longer service life than lead acid batteries.
If ongoing development and testing continue to confirm our laboratory
results, we believe e3 Supercells may offer a cost-effective
alternative to conventional lead-acid batteries that:
Charges three to five times faster;
Offers three to four times as many charge/discharge cycles in deep
discharge applications;
Withstands repetitive 90% depth of discharge without significant loss
of performance; and
Requires minimal maintenance."
Cheers
lOCk
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Example: Vego Scooter batteries. Long and skinny to fit in their special
size compartment. No one else made the right size to fit. Vego went out of
business. By luck some shorter in length and taller batteries were found by
owners to fit and they only lose 1/2 ah. Doesn't always work out this way.
This is common in business in general. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: Wright Effect, Wrong Result? By Bill Moore
Cobasys reserves the right to be the sole manufacturer of
batteries for electric-drive vehicles in North America.
Myles Twete wrote:
Solution: Build and market hybrid plug-in vehicles with a "no
battery" or glider option. Provide enough space so the vehicle
purchaser can purchase their own batteries and have them installed
in the States.
This won't satisfy the monopoly instincts of large corporations. They
prefer NOT to use generic parts that customers can get from multiple
sources. They would rather use a custom part where they can monopolize
the source of supply, to command a higher price.
This instinct is so powerful that companies like Cobasys would rather
have *all* of a tiny pie than share a much larger pie with anyone else.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian, are there any plans to race your 192V Porsche 914?
I've always been curious as to what its performance was with
192V of Optimas, 8" motor, and a 750 amp Auburn. Approxamate
0-60? 1/4 mile?
I remember you bragging that I.C.E. Breaker would eventually
be seeing 11s or something insanely fast around that general
area. Traction's a bitch, eh? :-)
And related to EV racing, today I stumbled across a gem of a
post in the archives since I actually had some precious free
time from college and/or work. It was titled "Shocking the
Import Drag Racers!" by none other than John Wayland.
http://www.repp.org/discussion/ev/199909/msg01031.html
I was laughing so hard I was about ready to crap out the
contents of the Thanksgiving dinner I scarfed down
yesterday. What a difference 6 years makes with the Zombie
now pulling low 12s instead of 14 flat.
So John, anything ever come of your encounter with Mr.
Integra?
More motivation to get something on the road at least.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Only trailers and golf carts use 4 X 4", you'd have to get an adapter spacer to
use regular wheels that have a 4X100mm pattern. You can get some 13" trailer
wheels and tires cheap for a few extra mph, but they're not much to look at.
You have to use adapters to go to 4X100 to use anything normal... unless you
can find a car that had 4X4", which I'm not really sure there were.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK so the GEM is the same as the
Th!nk but what standard bolt pattern fits.
Honda, Toyota or ???? Thanks for the info. LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: Low rolling resistance tires
> Ricky wrote:
>> That was a Think Neighbor he put them on (sorry should have specified).
>> They >have the same 4 X 4" bolt pattern as the GEM's. You'd have to do
>> the same thing >I did, get wheel adapter-spacers in order to make normal
>> car size wheels work
>
> Link for adapters if anyone needs them:
>
> http://www.airbagit-store.com/product_category.asp?id=513
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Say for example the motor uses 200 w/hrs per mile.
The Orbital is listed as having 50 amp/hr. What range would a pack of
29 of these have?
Ryan,
It's not w/hrs or amp/hr, it is Wh (Watts*hours) and Ah
Amps*hours.
Please get your units (and, preferably, capitalization)
right, so others can understand you better, and you yourself
avoid errors.
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
1,450 amp/hrs divided by 200w/hrs per mile equals what? How is this done?
Where your the 1,450 Ah number comes from?
The draw back to having 29 Orbitals is the cost of $2,842 and a weight
of 1,189 lbs.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> It seems to me these "modular battery packs" could enable EVs to
> really take hold in the mainstream.
>
> Sometimes beginners ask the best questions. Recently one guy
> came up to me and asked whether there was a "plug and play"
> battery solution "out there."
Sure; it's done with electric forklifts all the time. The batteries are
in big standardized packs that can be quickly swapped (with a forklift
of course! :-)
The challenge is that when you convert a normal car, there is no place
to put a normal quick-change forklift pack. They are in steel boxes
about 1' x 3' x 2' high, that weighs half a ton or more. Forklift packs
are also usually 36-48v -- lower than most people want.
A modular pack for a road-going EV would need a different configuration.
Maybe something more like 2' x 2' x 1' that weighs under 600 lbs and
delivers 72v or more. Then you'd need to provide "hole" or other
hatchway so a pallet jack or something similar could insert or remove
the pack. You'd need to use 2 or more such packs to get higher voltages.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> You can put a 12 volt regulator across a pair of series connected
> 6 volt blocks. No modifications are necessary.
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> But couldn't the two batts develop a voltage spread, one low, one
> high, masked by an okay average voltage?
Yes, it could. Ideally, you'd monitor right down to the individual cell.
But the amount of equipment it takes is too expensive. You only do it
with something like lithium batteries where ever a slight under- or
over-voltage can be disasterous.
So we compromise, and measure every X cells. Not as good, but cheaper
and easier. X=6 for a 12v battery when you monitor every 6 cells. The
larger X is, the worse it works but the cheaper it gets, until the
extreme where X is your total number of cells and all you measure is the
total pack voltage.
If your two 6v batteries are the same brand, same age, same temperature,
and have been used their whole life in the same vehicle, then they will
track the same as one 12v battery -- so a single 12v regulator works as
well as it would with a 12v battery. It would only be a problem if you
were mixing brands, ages, they are at different temperatures, etc.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
>
> Say for example the motor uses 200 w/hrs per mile.
First off, get rid of the "/" - it means divided by.
What you really mean is multiplied by. (W.hrs, Whrs or Wh)
> The Orbital is listed as having 50 amp/hr. What range would a pack of
> 29 of these have?
If these were perfect batteries and had the same Ah capacity regardless
of how hard they were discharged, then you would get 50 Ah x 12 V = 600
Wh of capacity.
Unfortunately, Peukert's battery fairies do evil things to batteries,
the result being that the harder you discharge them, the less Ah
capacity they have.
The Orbitals you mention above will give you 50Ah when discharged at
2.5A - that is they will provide 2.5A of current for 20 hours. (2.5A x
20h = 50Ah <- see It's multiply, not divide :-)
2.5A is not much use in an EV.
100A is much more like it (with peaks of 500A or so).
At these sorts of levels, an Orbital is lucky to provide 25-30Ah.
So, you have about 25Ah x 12V = 300Wh per battery.
300Wh x 29 = 8,700Wh or 8.7kWh.
> 1,450 amp/hrs divided by 200w/hrs per mile equals what? How
> is this done?
>
8.7kWh / 200Wh/mile = 43.5 miles.
This is how far you could go assuming that your car uses 200Wh/mile and
the batteries provide 8.7kWh.
This is a 100% discharge.
Doing this on a regular basis will kill your batteries very quickly.
If you want your Orbitals to last, only discharge them to 50%, ie
4.35kWh -> 21.75 miles
> The draw back to having 29 Orbitals is the cost of $2,842 and a weight
> of 1,189 lbs.
>
> I was thinking about using Odyssey model PC625. 29 of them at a cost
> of $2,260, and a weight of "only" 383 lbs...
>
> Each battery is listed as only having 16ah(vs's 50ah of the Orbitals)
> though. The $2200 question is if these batteries will give me an
> acceptable range or not..
16Ah on the label probably means about 8Ah at EV discharge rates.
So each battery has 8Ah x 12V = 96Wh.
96Wh x 29 = 2,784Wh.
2,784Wh / 200Wh/mile = 13.92 miles (at 100% discharge)
So you are looking at about 7 miles range at 50% discharge.
Everything in the above equations is only a rough value.
They all vary depending on all sorts of outside conditions.
How fast are you driving? What is the road like? Is it stop/start
traffic?
Do you have regen brakes? How hot is it? Are you running lights, heater
or aircon?
Why 29 batteries?
In series that is 348V.
I suppose a HV Zilla can handle that, as can a Siemens AC unit.
If you went to 30 batteries, you could have two strings of 15 (180V ea)
or even three strings of 10 at 120V ea.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
What is the 1 hr C rate,or 1c rate of the Orbitals? You want to know this
because this is usually what we ev'ers use in finding out the range, or put
another way, this is about the amount of time you will drive your ev before you
have to recharge.
So you take the 1c rate and multiply it by the volts in your system and then
divide that number by the w/hrs per mile used.
If the 1c rate on the orbitals is 50 amps and you have 29 batteries that means
you have (50 amps x 29 batteries x 12 volts) 17400 watthours or 17.4 kwh.
You give the number of 200 whr/mile for the motor, but you also have to figure
in the total weight of the whole car including the batteries, battery connect
cables, and all the other equipment that it takes to run the car, but just for
figuring purposes I'll use your 200 whr/mile.
Divide the 17400 watthours by the 200 whr/mile and you get 87 miles. But I
neglected to figure in the DOD on the batteries. If we took them to 80% DOD as
an extreme (50% DOD is better to do on a regular basis, you don't abuse the
batteries as much as taking them to a 80% DOD), then that would mean we only
have (17400 x 80%) 13,920 watthours that we should use in our batteries. Again
dividing by 200 whr/mile means we can go (13920 / 200) 69.9 miles. At 50% DOD
we only can use 8700 watthours, and can do a trip of 43.5 miles.
That is basically how you figure how many miles you can go. At least I think it
is.... This one of the things I've learned from reading the newsgroup, so I
thought I'd take a stab at giving you an answer. I'm sure someone else will
also answer and I hope that my figures agree, more or less.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 7:45 PM
Subject: amp/hrs to w/hrs?
> Say for example the motor uses 200 w/hrs per mile.
>
> The Orbital is listed as having 50 amp/hr. What range would a pack of
> 29 of these have?
>
> http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
>
> 1,450 amp/hrs divided by 200w/hrs per mile equals what? How is this done?
>
> The draw back to having 29 Orbitals is the cost of $2,842 and a weight
> of 1,189 lbs.
>
> I was thinking about using Odyssey model PC625. 29 of them at a cost
> of $2,260, and a weight of "only" 383 lbs...
>
> Each battery is listed as only having 16ah(vs's 50ah of the Orbitals)
> though. The $2200 question is if these batteries will give me an
> acceptable range or not..
>
>
> http://www.enersysreservepower.com/ody_b.asp?routine=ody_spec&brandID=5
>
> http://www.remybattery.com/350/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=343&subcat=477
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He assumed all the batteries were in parallel.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: amp/hrs to w/hrs?
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > 1,450 amp/hrs divided by 200w/hrs per mile equals what? How is this
done?
>
> Where your the 1,450 Ah number comes from?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Say for example the motor uses 200 w/hrs per mile.
At what speed?
This is important in determining your power requirements. Of
course, what counts is the amount of energy consumed from
the batteries, not the motor, but for simplicity's sake
you've pretty much asked the right question.
>The Orbital is listed as having 50 amp/hr. What range
>would a pack of 29 of these have?
If it is a constant speed range, it depends upon the speed
and the current required to maintain that speed.
A generally accepted figure is that seeing real EV loads,
with 300+ amp accelerations and 60 amp cruises, an Orbital
will deliver between 280 and 320 wh per battery to 100%
discharge.
Lets be conservative and say 280 wh per battery. 29 of these
means 8,120 watt hours, and at 200 wh/mile, that will get
you a little over 40 miles range. Further, you don't want to
discharge more than 70 or 80%, so basically 30 miles range.
This would be the norm. Your mileage may vary, a LOT.
For instance, I ask at what speed will you be consuming 200
wh/mile? This makes a difference in calculating power
consumption and thus the load on each battery. The load on
each battery is basically the amp draw, and due to Puekert's
effect, the greater the amp draw, the lower the capacity
that will be delivered to 100% discharge.
Thus, a vehicle that consumes 200 wh/mile at 50 mph won't go
nearly as far on a charge as one that consumes 200 wh/mile
at 70 mph if you decide to have them go the same speed.
Take for instance a Geo Prizm conversion that consumes 250
wh/mile at 60 mph. This is a power demand of 15 kW. Using
that pack of 29 Orbitals, at 12V nominal each, that is a
current demand of 43 amps(see the equations used at the
bottom of this post). At this load, an Orbital might give
you 320 watt hours to 100% discharge, or a maximum of 37.12
miles range, 30 miles if you don't go past 80% discharge.
Likewise, a Volkswagen Karmen Ghia conversion equipped with
the same battery pack, motor, ect. might consume 250 wh/mile
going 75 mph. This a power demand of 18.75 kW, a current
demand of 54 amps. It might only get 280 watt hours for each
battery to 100% discharge, or 32 miles range to 100%, about
26 miles if you don't go past 80%.
Consequently, slow the Karmen Ghia down to 60 mph, it might
only consume 150 wh/mile, and thus get much better range
compared to the above Prizm in similar conditions. 150
wh/mile * 60 miles/hour = 9,000 watts power demand. 9,000
watts / 29 batteries / 12V per battery = 26 amps per
battery. This is near 25 amps, of which the Exide Orbital
can deliver this current at a steady rate for 95 minutes!
Thus, at 25 amps, the Orbital can deliver 475 wh to 100%
discharge(in theory, temperature, age, # of cycles, can
affect this). This Karmen Ghia going the same speed as the
Prizm, 60 mph, would thus see 95 miles range to 100% DoD, or
about 75 miles range to 80% discharge. Using 25 amps to
cruise might be prove difficult, but Alan Cocconi among
others have done it with great results!
Some simple math you will find handy:
(Watt Hours/Mile) * (Miles/Hour) = (Watts)
(Amp Hours/battery) * (battery strings) = (Battery Pack Amp
Hours)
If you have two strings of a 50 AH battery, you have 100 AH.
If you have one string of a 50 AH battery, you have 50 AH.
Both these neglect Puekert's effect. If you have 29, 50 AH
Orbitals, each 12V, connected in series, you have a 348V, 50
AH battery pack. If you have 20 Orbitals connected in
series, it is a 240V, 50 AH pack.
(Battery Pack Voltage) * (Battery Pack Amp Hours) = (Watt
Hours)
If you have a single string of 29 Orbitals, each 12V nominal
and each 50 AH(neglecting Peukert's effect), you have a
348V, 50AH battery pack that is 17,400 watt hours of
capacity. Likewise, if you have two strings of 15 Orbitals,
you have a 180V, 100AH battery pack that is 18,000 watt
hours of capacity(again neglecting Peukert's effect).
(Battery Pack Voltage) * (Battery Amps) = (Watts)
(Battery Amps) / (Battery Strings) = (Current Draw per
Battery String)
What conversion are you doing? As you can see above, the
more efficient your conversion, the farther you will go per
pound of battery. You want to keep current draw from the
batteries at a minimum to minimize operating costs, minimize
percent discharge, and maximize range.
The best way to do this is to maximize the size of your
battery pack in comparison to vehicle weight so as to keep
discharges as low as possible for your daily commute(Within
reason. Lead acid batteries have a shelf life of 4-8 years
depending on whether flooded or sealed, and they give their
best lifecycle at about 30-50% discharge). Further, you will
want to make your vehicle as aerodynamic as you possibly can
and use low rolling resistance tires. Halving the power
consumption to go a certain speed will more than double your
range on the same battery pack due to decreased current draw
and thus more delivered capacity.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just about to load 36 Yuasa 6v - 160 AGM's into my EV - just as soon as I
have made the bracketry !.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: Is anyone on the list using 6-volt AGMs or Gel Cells?
> Has anyone used them in the past?
>
> A related question I'm wondering is why aren't more people using them?
>
>
> Mark Freidberg
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
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Yes, and I was considering:
1. A vehicle modified for modular packs. Also it seems a modified pickup
would be a preferred candidate--placing modular packs underneath the bed. So
maybe a pack height of 1 battery unit, and then length and width to fit the
truck bed dimensions.
2. Basically a semiconductor-to-battery analogy. Once decisions are made and
production standardized, costs can tumble and the complexity that can be built
into the final product via automation can soar.
To date, EV hobbyist's battery packs replete with cable interconnects have
the appearance of a 1950's Eniac.
By contrast a future generation--i hesitate to say next generation--modular
battery pack could have probes, sensors, charging modules, diagnostic
capabilities, and the like built-in. A cell gone bad? No problem, pop it out
and put a new one in.
Many EVers go and one-off their own EV, yet most end up right back where
everybody else is: problems with range and reliability.
3. Perhaps visualizing Lego toys is useful when considering modular battery
packs.
4. This has probably all been thought up and discussed before. I enjoyed Mark
Fowler's post on this topic as well.
Mark Freidberg
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> It seems to me these "modular battery packs" could enable EVs to
> really take hold in the mainstream.
>
> Sometimes beginners ask the best questions. Recently one guy
> came up to me and asked whether there was a "plug and play"
> battery solution "out there."
Sure; it's done with electric forklifts all the time. The batteries are
in big standardized packs that can be quickly swapped (with a forklift
of course! :-)
The challenge is that when you convert a normal car, there is no place
to put a normal quick-change forklift pack. They are in steel boxes
about 1' x 3' x 2' high, that weighs half a ton or more. Forklift packs
are also usually 36-48v -- lower than most people want.
A modular pack for a road-going EV would need a different configuration.
Maybe something more like 2' x 2' x 1' that weighs under 600 lbs and
delivers 72v or more. Then you'd need to provide "hole" or other
hatchway so a pallet jack or something similar could insert or remove
the pack. You'd need to use 2 or more such packs to get higher voltages.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet.
Lot's of someone's, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals
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** Reply to message from "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Fri,
25 Nov 2005 19:36:46 -0800
> OK so the GEM is the same as the Th!nk but what standard bolt pattern fits.
> Honda, Toyota or ????
I don't think there are any cars that use that size pattern anymore. The old
chevy II is the last one I know of. I have read that trailers still use this
bolt pattern.
Dale Curren
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** Reply to message from Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Fri, 25 Nov
2005 21:23:56 -0800 (PST)
> Only trailers and golf carts use 4 X 4", you'd have to get an adapter spacer
> to
> use regular wheels that have a 4X100mm pattern. You can get some 13" trailer
> wheels and tires cheap for a few extra mph, but they're not much to look at.
> You have to use adapters to go to 4X100 to use anything normal... unless you
> can find a car that had 4X4", which I'm not really sure there were.
In the past, I have redrilled the flanges to a different size pattern. I've
never had my GEM brakes apart, but I bet it is possible.
Dale Curren
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--- Begin Message ---
On 11/24/05, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Myers Motors Unveils
> > the NmG (No More Gas) Electric Vehicle
>
> I'm very glad that a freeway capable EV is being produced domestically,
> but they should have hired a marketing firm to come up with a good name
> for the product. I think that name choice is as weird as the body of the
> car.
Yeah no kidding. What was wrong with Sparrow? Back in 2000 or so I
actually knew a girl who wanted one, and she wasn't even very weird.
Goes to show they had marketing figured out, at least.
But at this price we can just pretend it doesn't exist, like everyone
else is going to do.
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The Ford Ranger has a modular pack. 1 pack connected
with 3 connectors, 6 bolts plus 4 bolts to remove a
bar. Takes either a specialized set of lifts or 2
pallet jacks, 4 jack stand and a tall floor jack as
well as at least 2 people to pull it out. It was set
up for dealer only servicing. Then they used a battery
Ford made battery that they discontinued when the
shutdown the EV Rangers. The one I pulled was 39 8v
gel batteries, 312v 65 Ahr.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark Freidberg wrote:
> > It seems to me these "modular battery packs"
> could enable EVs to
> > really take hold in the mainstream.
> >
> > Sometimes beginners ask the best questions.
> Recently one guy
> > came up to me and asked whether there was a "plug
> and play"
> > battery solution "out there."
>
> Sure; it's done with electric forklifts all the
> time. The batteries are
> in big standardized packs that can be quickly
> swapped (with a forklift
> of course! :-)
>
> The challenge is that when you convert a normal car,
> there is no place
> to put a normal quick-change forklift pack. They are
> in steel boxes
> about 1' x 3' x 2' high, that weighs half a ton or
> more. Forklift packs
> are also usually 36-48v -- lower than most people
> want.
>
> A modular pack for a road-going EV would need a
> different configuration.
> Maybe something more like 2' x 2' x 1' that weighs
> under 600 lbs and
> delivers 72v or more. Then you'd need to provide
> "hole" or other
> hatchway so a pallet jack or something similar could
> insert or remove
> the pack. You'd need to use 2 or more such packs to
> get higher voltages.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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query ev
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Thrift-T-Tri-wheel-Thrif-t-microcar-Three-wheeler-Trike-1950s_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6472QQitemZ4592247294QQrdZ1
This might make one very interesting mini truck conversion.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Still in the planning stage, I believe I ran into a snag. I measured my
recent motor purchase and it is 7.2" diameter, but 15.375" long, and it has
shafts
on both ends. Even if I cut off the tail shaft, I can only get the length
down to about 16". The 8" ADC is 14.69" and appears to just barely fit in the
late model Geo Metro - according to someone who did one of these and the
pictures on Cloud EV's website. Can someone with a late model Geo confirm if I
can
fit an extra 1.31" of motor into the car. Maybe if I remove the motor mount
on the car on that side and fabricate something that comes from the sides it
can be done. But, I would like to confirm with someone who actually had an 8"
ADC in their car and can measure the clearance. Thanks.
Other options - go with a different car. Does anyone with a Festiva or
Aspire have an 8" ADC motor in it? Or, can you measure your motor and see if I
can
fit a 16" long motor in the car.
Otherwise, it looks like I'll have to sell this motor and buy an ADC 8". So,
if anyone is interested in my motor, feel free to contact me off list.
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
If you think the price for the vehicle is high go to the service section to
see what it will cost you for new brake pads.
http://www.myersmotors.com/index.html It appears they only come with the
spindle, hub, disc, and caliper assembly. At least that is the impression
you are left with.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: Myers motors update
On 11/24/05, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Myers Motors Unveils
> the NmG (No More Gas) Electric Vehicle
I'm very glad that a freeway capable EV is being produced domestically,
but they should have hired a marketing firm to come up with a good name
for the product. I think that name choice is as weird as the body of the
car.
Yeah no kidding. What was wrong with Sparrow? Back in 2000 or so I
actually knew a girl who wanted one, and she wasn't even very weird.
Goes to show they had marketing figured out, at least.
But at this price we can just pretend it doesn't exist, like everyone
else is going to do.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/182 - Release Date: 11/24/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 11/25/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked all over and could not find pricing, just a
page that said 'contact Myers Motors'.
Where did you find prices?
Rod
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you think the price for the vehicle is high go to
> the service section to
> see what it will cost you for new brake pads.
> http://www.myersmotors.com/index.html It appears
> they only come with the
> spindle, hub, disc, and caliper assembly. At least
> that is the impression
> you are left with.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: Myers motors update
>
>
> > On 11/24/05, Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >> > Myers Motors Unveils
> >> > the NmG (No More Gas) Electric Vehicle
> >>
> >> I'm very glad that a freeway capable EV is being
> produced domestically,
> >> but they should have hired a marketing firm to
> come up with a good name
> >> for the product. I think that name choice is as
> weird as the body of the
> >> car.
> >
> > Yeah no kidding. What was wrong with Sparrow?
> Back in 2000 or so I
> > actually knew a girl who wanted one, and she
> wasn't even very weird.
> > Goes to show they had marketing figured out, at
> least.
> >
> > But at this price we can just pretend it doesn't
> exist, like everyone
> > else is going to do.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/182 -
> Release Date: 11/24/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 -
> Release Date: 11/25/2005
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
American, I believe - my uncle used this idea, but he's not around to ask
anymore.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: Drilling/tapping hard steel shaft
>
> > Better yet, a titanium bit - good for anything including stainless
steel.
> >
> > The comment about keeping the bit cool is absolutely correct But Don't
use
> > motor oil, unless you add some paraffin to it - otherwise it won't do
much
> > to keep the bit sharp.
> >
>
> Would that be paraffin according to the common American definition (wax)
> or the common British definition (Kerosene)?
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod and All,
Look under sevice. Check out the price for the rear
swing arm, $1900+ !! I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face charging $500
for that assembly !!
If you look under values, you'll find that apparently
God told them to overprice this stuff !!
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I looked all over and could not find pricing, just a
page that said 'contact Myers Motors'.
Where did you find prices?
Rod
--- Roderick Wilde wrote:
> If you think the price for the vehicle is high go to
> the service section to
> see what it will cost you for new brake pads.
> http://www.myersmotors.com/index.html It appears
> they only come with the
> spindle, hub, disc, and caliper assembly. At least
> that is the impression
> you are left with.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shawn Rutledge"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:00 AM
> Subject: Re: Myers motors update
>
>
> > On 11/24/05, Ken Trough
> wrote:
> >> > Myers Motors Unveils
> >> > the NmG (No More Gas) Electric Vehicle
> >>
> >> I'm very glad that a freeway capable EV is being
> produced domestically,
> >> but they should have hired a marketing firm to
> come up with a good name
> >> for the product. I think that name choice is as
> weird as the body of the
> >> car.
> >
> > Yeah no kidding. What was wrong with Sparrow?
> Back in 2000 or so I
> > actually knew a girl who wanted one, and she
> wasn't even very weird.
> > Goes to show they had marketing figured out, at
> least.
> >
> > But at this price we can just pretend it doesn't
> exist, like everyone
> > else is going to do.
> >
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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