EV Digest 4939
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Myers motors update ...whats wrong with a sparrow
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Myers motors update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Forklift Battery Swapping...200+ Mile Range Sound Good?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) 1993 Honda DelSol Glider
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Myers motors update
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Vortex Generators and/or Strakes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
by "Don B. Davidson III" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !! A Second LOOK
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Oh how I *love* NiCDs....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) re: Ev racing
by "Brian D.Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Low rolling resistance tires
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV racing
by "Brian D.Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV racing
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Myers motors update ...whats wrong with a sparrow, and OTHER rolling
Stock.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Forklift Battery Swapping...200+ Mile Range Sound Good?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Forklift Battery Swapping...200+ Mile Range Sound Good?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor fit issue - Late model Geo
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Myers motors update
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Zinc-Air "refueling" - was: Re: what about battery swapping ? was:
Look at fast charging from the other end of the plug
by toltec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Forklift Battery Swapping...200+ Mile Range Sound Good?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Myers motors update
by "Jake Oshins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Myers motors update
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) OEM's should reevaluate EV's
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: EV racing
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I had the opertunity to sit in a sparrow not to long ago and up to that
point I had wanted one. Unfortunantly they are not for all sizes of
people! The size of the cabin kinda got to me. I am only about 5'4" but
heavy. As I sat in it I found my head was a mere inch from the roof and
i was looking thru the top edge of the windshield. The side walls taper
in and the feeling is rather clasutrophobic; I wonder if they ever
thought of a "convertable" a wind screen and an open cockpit :-)
Anyway, just my 2 cents, I hope they make the merlin they used to have
on there site.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yesterday at about 4pm, got a call from KOMO-TV, our local ABC affiliate
here in Seattle. He wanted me to do an "ON-CAMERA" interview as a
Hybrid owner, as to what I thought about a proposal put forward by the
U.S. Chamber of Commerce that high - mileage vehicles should be TAXED
extra because they are using the same roads with SUV,s and other
vehicles which buy more gas, pay more tax, yet the Hybrids pay LESS gas
TAX...
I was out of town at a family gathering, and could not oblige. I
think I would have gone POSTAL in front of the camera any way....
(Brother ! How Up-Side-Down can the world get..)
More detail at Mercury News:
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13254673.htm
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<< Hi Rod and All,
Look under sevice. Check out the price for the rear swing
arm, $1900+ !! I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face charging $500 for
that assembly !!
If you look under values, you'll find that apparently God
told them to overprice this stuff !!>>>>
The quickest route to hypocrisy is to make your theological beliefs public...but
what really has me questioning their methods is this page's pictures: they're
all of San Francisco (*not* Tallmadge, OH)! What's that mean, only folks with a
high cost of living would be interested? You know, if you own property in S.F.,
you can probably afford their MSRP.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Mark Freidberg wrote:
It seems to me these "modular battery packs" could enable EVs to
really take hold in the mainstream.
Then, Lee Hart wrote:
Sure; it's done with electric forklifts all the time. The batteries are
in big standardized packs that can be quickly swapped (with a forklift
of course! :-)
Yes, it's done in the warehousing industry as a norm. Warehouses that
run their lift trucks 24/7 'depend' on battery swapping and have a
battery room and gantry crane to do the job. It takes all of 5 minutes,
from the moment the operator drives his tired forklift into the bay,
until the time he's rolling away with a freshly charged battery.
The challenge is that when you convert a normal car, there is no place
to put a normal quick-change forklift pack. They are in steel boxes
about 1' x 3' x 2' high, that weighs half a ton or more. Forklift packs
are also usually 36-48v -- lower than most people want.
Pallet jack industrial batteries are about the size Lee describes, are
most always 24V, and weigh between 585-800 lbs. Stand-up rider type
forklifts, like the ones you see at Costco and Winco stores, use 24V or
36V batteries that are larger at about 2' x 3' x 2.5' and weigh
1800-2000 lbs. The typical electric sit-down forklift uses 24V, 36V, and
48V batteries that are about 2.5-3' x 3' x 2.5' and weigh 2000-3500 lbs.
The 24V battery is going away as used in sit-down type lift trucks, the
36V is now the most common, and the 48V is used in the larger, higher
capacity trucks. Of course, with AC systems coming on line, 72V & 80V
batteries are used as well, but these are not very common yet.
Forklift batteries are designed for relatively low currents that peak at
around 500 amps and average in the 150-200 amp range. They actually want
these batteries to remain heavy for ballast, so their 1/4 thick plate
steel cases are perfect. The tubular type plates of a forklift battery
are designed for deep discharges daily, and very long cycle life, at the
expense of very low power density. For an on-road EV where weight is the
enemy, a forklift battery would give low range, compared to the same
weight in, say 6V golf car batteries. A forklift battery would also give
substandard power performance. That said, you could pull a forklift
battery down 80% every day, and have it last 5-7 years!
A modular pack for a road-going EV would need a different configuration.
Maybe something more like 2' x 2' x 1' that weighs under 600 lbs and
delivers 72v or more. Then you'd need to provide "hole" or other
hatchway so a pallet jack or something similar could insert or remove
the pack. You'd need to use 2 or more such packs to get higher voltages.
You'd need at least two of the 48V, 2600 lb. type batteries to get to
96V. A vehicle using two of these batteries would weigh 7000 lbs. at
least, and at a safe max current of 500 amps, 45 kw or about 45 hp would
be all you could wring out of them for accelerating a 3.5 ton
vehicle...argghh!!! Once you got this monster up and rolling however,
it's range would be impressive. I suspect that on a flat long stretch of
open highway at 55 mph, this beast of an EV would draw 200 amps
continuously. These 48V, 2600 lb. batteries are rated at 1000 ahr @ C6,
so they could easily deliver that 200 amps for 4 hours continuously
without harming them at all. That's 220 miles range....God help you
though, if you ever have to accelerate out of another car's way, or pull
any kind of hill!
I suppose if one lived in Wyoming or eastern Idaho where long and lonely
highways seem to stretch forever on the flat plains, a midsized pickup
with a beefed up frame and suspension, fitted with twin 48V forklift
batteries, might be just the ticket for your daily 100 mile commute :-)
Heck, if they had a crane at your work destination and a pair of
industrial chargers on hand, and if you had the same setup at home, a
200+ mile commute would be quite feasible. Using the bed as the dual
battery nesting area, you already have that 'hole' Lee mentions.
Back to reality....battery swapping would be practical with a compact
400 lb. LiIon battery that could be ejected and inserted like a fat CD
in a big slot at the rear just under the trunk floor. With that kind of
weight and size, a small metal dolly on rollers would be all one would
need. On the other hand, using a 400 lb. advanced LiIon battery with 200
miles range per charge and a good fast charger, the need to swap out
batteries would be minimized.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:07 PM, Steven Lough wrote:
Yesterday at about 4pm, got a call from KOMO-TV, our local ABC
affiliate here in Seattle. He wanted me to do an "ON-CAMERA"
interview as a Hybrid owner, as to what I thought about a proposal
put forward by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that high - mileage
vehicles should be TAXED extra because they are using the same
roads with SUV,s and other vehicles which buy more gas, pay more
tax, yet the Hybrids pay LESS gas TAX...
I ran into something similar when registering our first EV. They
made us pay double the registration fee since we wouldn't be paying
any gasoline taxes. I figured arguing with the clerk would be of
little avail. It was fun enough trying to convince her that the car
had zero cynlinders.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVeryone,
The autobody place my brother works at, picked up a 1993 Honda DelSol at
an auction for a customer. The V-tec engine, tranny, and ECM were
stolen out of the vehicle - which is why it was at the salvage auction.
This would make a good candidate for a direct drive EV. The customer (a
friend of the owner), backed out of the project. They picked the car
up for $800, but my brother says they might let it go for less. If
anyone is interested in using this for an EV conversion, contact me
off-list. Without doing any research, $800 + shipping seems like a
decent deal for this glider...but maybe not.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you look under values,
> you'll find that apparently God told them to
> overprice this stuff !!
The extra money is probably used to pay for the free
lunches for employees. The only catch is that it's a
bible study lunch! I guess there's not an amendment
for seperation of church and work :-)
Rod
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Rod and All,
> Look under sevice. Check out
> the price for the rear swing arm, $1900+ !! I'd have
> a hard time keeping a straight face charging $500
> for that assembly !!
> If you look under values,
> you'll find that apparently God told them to
> overprice this stuff !!
>
> Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I looked all over and could not find pricing, just
> a
> page that said 'contact Myers Motors'.
> Where did you find prices?
> Rod
>
> --- Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> > If you think the price for the vehicle is high go
> to
> > the service section to
> > see what it will cost you for new brake pads.
> > http://www.myersmotors.com/index.html It appears
> > they only come with the
> > spindle, hub, disc, and caliper assembly. At least
> > that is the impression
> > you are left with.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Shawn Rutledge"
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: Myers motors update
> >
> >
> > > On 11/24/05, Ken Trough
> > wrote:
> > >> > Myers Motors Unveils
> > >> > the NmG (No More Gas) Electric Vehicle
> > >>
> > >> I'm very glad that a freeway capable EV is
> being
> > produced domestically,
> > >> but they should have hired a marketing firm to
> > come up with a good name
> > >> for the product. I think that name choice is as
> > weird as the body of the
> > >> car.
> > >
> > > Yeah no kidding. What was wrong with Sparrow?
> > Back in 2000 or so I
> > > actually knew a girl who wanted one, and she
> > wasn't even very weird.
> > > Goes to show they had marketing figured out, at
> > least.
> > >
> > > But at this price we can just pretend it doesn't
> > exist, like everyone
> > > else is going to do.
> > >
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million
> songs. Try it free.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
> Are you talking about cars with super-low tire RR and poor
> aerodynamics? If so, you might get numbers as low as 30 mph.
This may in fact be true for large truck, buses, and motor homes. They
use large diameter, high pressure tires that probably have lower rolling
resistance. And, they have particularly bad aerodynamics.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This brings up a question from a new EV owner:
I recently purchased three EV's (used/kit/conversion) Tax time is around the
corner. Anything I can claim on my taxes as these are ZEV (zero emission
vehicles)?
I will be facing NY State Dept of Motor Vehicles for the first time next
spring when I register my EV. Again, can I expect any "incentives" for using
a ZEV or can I expect to be penalized for not buying gasoline and paying the
"gas" tax? If that turns out to be the case, that's as silly as penalizing
SUV's forcing them to pay more insurance because they will cause more damage
than they will suffer in an accident. Just because the car is safer, means
you have to pay more insurance? That's insane. As insane as it would be to
be forced to pay a tax for not polluting the air we breathe. Thought that
was the reason we have EV's (to save the atmosphere).
Don Davidson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.spaces.msn.com/members/dbd3
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/662.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry halstead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
> On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:07 PM, Steven Lough wrote:
> > Yesterday at about 4pm, got a call from KOMO-TV, our local ABC
> > affiliate here in Seattle. He wanted me to do an "ON-CAMERA"
> > interview as a Hybrid owner, as to what I thought about a proposal
> > put forward by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that high - mileage
> > vehicles should be TAXED extra because they are using the same
> > roads with SUV,s and other vehicles which buy more gas, pay more
> > tax, yet the Hybrids pay LESS gas TAX...
>
> I ran into something similar when registering our first EV. They
> made us pay double the registration fee since we wouldn't be paying
> any gasoline taxes. I figured arguing with the clerk would be of
> little avail. It was fun enough trying to convince her that the car
> had zero cynlinders.
>
> -Jerry
>
> http://www.evconvert.com/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the other hand... As I read on, the idea is to TAX by the mile.
That makes sense, if you couple it with TAX by car weight too. Heavy
vehcle, more ware and tear on the road. MORE TAX. More miles traveled,
More Tax Paid. This is IMHO.. fair. Now if we could get the
Insurance Industry to sell car inssurance by the mile also... That
would be even MORE fair.
...I guess this is OLD NEWS, but here is a CBS story (print and video)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/14/eveningnews/main674120.shtml
Student buys Hybrid to cut his monthly gas bill by
$300. and then Oregon thinking about road tax by the mile....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just spent the morning with the BB600 powered Elec-trak; thought I would
pass on the performance statistics.
Tractor: Elec-trak E20 outfitted with 60 30ah rated (ho ho) BB600's in
two strings of 30 batteries, nominal voltage of 36 volts, 60ah capacity.
Was running the tractor pretty much flat out today mulching leaves and
using the power sweeper to sweep them up for the back yard. Average
draws on the pack were in the range of 60-100 amps constant.
At the end of the job the tractor's pack was reading 32 volts, and the
packs read 34ah and 36ah (dual E-meters and shunts). Performance was
still fine.
Oh and the temps. I store the tractor outside, it was in the low 20's
last night, warmed up to the 30's by the time I went outside to do all this.
So in a nutshell, the BB600 based pack with a rated capacity of 60ah was
putting out 70ah at a draw rate of 1C to 1.5C constant.
By comparison my 52ah 300 volt pack on the Prizm is down to about 15ah
capacity at 20 degrees before I am scraping the 260's for voltage.
God I love NiCDs. I can't wait for the snow. Though I think I will add a
thrid pack of 30 cells for some ballast in the rear and more range.
Will report on how three strings in parallel share the load.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John Westlund, The 914 was upgraded to 240 volts , Z1k , and sold, sorry
to see it go , but it's a daily driver and happy, It's not turned all the
way up but still can break CV joints.
mainfuse
Brian, are there any plans to race your 192V Porsche 914?
I've always been curious as to what its performance was with
192V of Optimas, 8" motor, and a 750 amp Auburn. Approxamate
0-60? 1/4 mile?
I remember you bragging that I.C.E. Breaker would eventually
be seeing 11s or something insanely fast around that general
area. Traction's a bitch, eh? :-)
And related to EV racing, today I stumbled across a gem of a
post in the archives since I actually had some precious free
time from college and/or work. It was titled "Shocking the
Import Drag Racers!" by none other than John Wayland.
http://www.repp.org/discussion/ev/199909/msg01031.html
I was laughing so hard I was about ready to crap out the
contents of the Thanksgiving dinner I scarfed down
yesterday. What a difference 6 years makes with the Zombie
now pulling low 12s instead of 14 flat.
So John, anything ever come of your encounter with Mr.
Integra?
More motivation to get something on the road at least.
John Westlund
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> OK so the GEM is the same as the Th!nk but what standard bolt pattern
fits. Honda, Toyota or ???? Thanks for the info. LR......
4 on 4" (101.6 mm)
Austin-Healey Sprite
Crosley - all '39-'52
MG Midget
Jensen Healey
Opel Manta, Kadette, GT
GM L-body
Buick Skyhawk '75-'81
Chevrolet Vega, Monza '71-'81
Pontiac Sunbird, Astre '76-'81
Oldsmobile Starfire '75-'81
I believe 76-80 Honda Accords also have this pattern at a +20mm offset
Given that info, an adapter might be an easier find :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mr. Plasma , ICE B. is currently set up for 144 volts, Our plan was to
run her at 192 volts, but the 12 purple Orbitals is making enough power to
lift the front wheels off the ground, so we will work our way up the MP
NEDRA record ladder. Our 120 time is already faster than the SC 120 volt
time and it's also faster than the MP144,168 and 192 volt time.so it should
not be a problem to get these records if we don't break something
first.Yesterday while testing the new line lock , the throttle cable stuck
on , when I came off the LL switch the front wheels lifted off the ground,
Thanks goodness for the e-disconnect.
We will let you know how it goes.
Mainfuse, Brian Hall
> Hello to All,
>
> Brian D.Hall wrote:
>
> >What a busy year it has been, it's nearing the end of 2005 and I have not
> >gone to the drags, Racing yet!
> > One last event at Infineon Raceway on Sunday and I'm trying to get ICE
> >breaker ready.
> >
> Hey Brian, the way the weather's looking here in the Pacific NW with
> heavy snow in the mountains and the nighttime temps in the Portland
> metro area in the 30 degree range as we get up to iced-over windshields
> and such, that name ICE breaker would be a perfect name for anyone
> 'trying' to race!
>
> >New line lock installed, new Orbitals, new paint and some
> >more tuning of the Z2k and I'm off.
> >
>
> OH-oh, I'm jealous! The drag racing season was just too short for me
> this year! Yeah, we had fun, but man, Tim and I weren't ready to put the
> Zombie away yet!
>
> >By the way, the voltage is going up, I
> >was planning on running 192 volts this week end, but I'm having trouble
> >keeping the front wheels on the ground at 144 volts ,so I guess I will
see
> >what I can break with this low voltage car and just keep raising the
voltage
> >until the axels go. %^). My EV grin is out of control.
> >
> >
>
> OK, you've confused me now....are you running at 144V this Sunday, or
> 192V? I 'love' hearing that you are powering it up ever higher....go for
> it! Good luck, be safe and keep us all updated.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Man, I love reading stuff like this! Tear up the track and make sure to
let everyone know how it goes.
See Ya.....John Wayland
Brian D.Hall wrote:
Hello Mr. Plasma , ICE B. is currently set up for 144 volts...the 12 purple
Orbitals is making enough power to lift the front wheels off the ground, so we
will work our way up the MP
NEDRA record ladder.....Yesterday while testing the new line lock , the
throttle cable stuck
on, when I came off the LL switch the front wheels lifted off the ground,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Myers motors update ...whats wrong with a sparrow
> I had the opertunity to sit in a sparrow not to long ago and up to that
> point I had wanted one. Unfortunantly they are not for all sizes of
> people! The size of the cabin kinda got to me. I am only about 5'4" but
> heavy. As I sat in it I found my head was a mere inch from the roof and
> i was looking thru the top edge of the windshield. The side walls taper
> in and the feeling is rather clasutrophobic; I wonder if they ever
> thought of a "convertable" a wind screen and an open cockpit :-)
>
> Anyway, just my 2 cents, I hope they make the merlin they used to have
> on there site.
>
Hi All;
My meeting a Sparrow, in the Myers Motors lot in beautiful, downtown
Tallmage Ohio, I didn't get in it, I put it on! Like an MG Midget, well at
least MG called it, what it is made for, MIDGETS!. At 6'5" 290 lbs I don't
come EVen close to the ideal EV customer<g>! Like having two size challanged
folks aboard. I had the same sardeen feeling in the Tango, too. Gees! If
EV's are gunna make it, ya need at least as much room as a Rabbit, or a
Prius, cars that I can and DO live with.The WORST car I EVer sat in was the
Citicar. Sitting tall in the saddle I'm crammed up against the sloping
windshield, (and remember, I fit comfortably in a VW Bug for years...) and
with the one-size-fits-all seat, non adjustable. Nobody in the @#$% Car biz
thinks that there are people bigger than 5'6" MAY ride in or ......horrors!
DRIVE their creations!
I hope the Freedom EV will be able to fit me. Jerry? Hint, hint? Ya
know my tonnage.We can do better. I had no problem with an EV-1 or a
Sunrise, though.There would be a new/used EV-1 in my garage had General
Murders accepted my 24k offer for the Burbank hostage EV-1's. I'm sure I
woulda been a buncha dollars and daze SHORT on that deal. Good Riddence,
General Murders as they exist now. But it hurts me to see the GM Guyz at the
plants lose their medical and pensions, as Wagoner and that band of pirates
bail out Golden Paraschutes intact! The GM guyz that built the EV-1 that
great bunch of auto guys! Where are they now?......... DAMMIT!
Didya see in todaze, Sat NY Times, that NY state wants to toughen up
emmission laws? The first byline is auto makers plan to sue! I wead the
whole article, fortunately ,on an empty stomach. The usual whinning that it
would cost consumers more would hurt the SUV crowd! Same paper; Amtrak got
their bair bones funding, but wouldn't be allowed to do airline style ticket
pricing. You know, that no two people on the plane paid the same price for
passage? To fill seats that would go empty, even on a train, it's a loss.
They over sell trains too, but people are allowed to stand or sit in the
club car. Not on planes, though. Those fluffy shots of the new crop of
planes, bigger than the Titanic, showing people walking the promonade deck,
(A thing deniged modern airline customers since the 1914 Sikorsky "Grand"
airliner, which DID have an open Promonade deck)chatting in the"club car"
lounges, dining on real food at the Parisianne Restaurant<g>. Reality check;
they come through with about 700 seats that would crowd a preschooler, make
a school bus seat seem like luxury! Then the zillion mile/hour, flights from
NYC to Peking on one charge(fueling) Too bad cruise ships don't GO
anyplace! Like to Europe or Japan! But you could be subject to piracy. an
old sport making a comeback! The Royal Whatever ship fired on by guyz in
speedboats? Give me a break, the ship could fire up all it's Disesels and
run them over<g>! Heard they tried? Did they USE the Sonic Weapon? The
ship's rap band at 3000 DB, Their version of " Nearer My God to Thee" ".Good
Ship, Lollipop" A Wayland Signature Sound System at FULL Volune? Sorry John
, couldn't resist!
Got carried away, again.
Back to the care and feeding of BB600's in Electracs and EV's!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> Yes, it's done in the warehousing industry as a norm. Warehouses that
> run their lift trucks 24/7 'depend' on battery swapping and have a
> battery room and gantry crane to do the job. It takes all of 5 minutes,
> from the moment the operator drives his tired forklift into the bay,
> until the time he's rolling away with a freshly charged battery...
Thanks John. That was a great summary.
> Forklift batteries are designed for low currents... peak around
> 500 amps and average in the 150-200 amp range... designed for deep
> discharges daily, and very long cycle life, at the expense of very
> low power density. For an on-road EV where weight is the enemy, a
> forklift battery would give low range, compared to the same weight
> in, say 6V golf car batteries. A forklift battery would also give
> substandard power performance. That said, you could pull a forklift
> battery down 80% every day, and have it last 5-7 years!
Right on, John. You wouldn't want to use a forklift battery in a
road-going EV unless it was intended for long hours of low-speed
driving.
>> A modular pack for a road-going EV would need a different
>> configuration. Maybe something more like 2' x 2' x 1' that weighs
>> under 600 lbs and delivers 72v or more. Then you'd need to provide
>> a "hole" or other hatchway so a pallet jack or something similar
>> could insert or remove the pack. You'd need to use 2 or more
>> such packs to get higher voltages.
> You'd need at least two of the 48V, 2600 lb. type batteries to get
> to 96V...
No, I'm not thinking of forklift batteries. I'd have something like
eight 6v golf cart batteries in that 2'x2'x1' pack. That's 48v and 500
lbs worth. Two such packs would work for a small car, or three for a
pickup.
Or, you could fill the 2'x2'x1' box with Optimas, or lithiums, or the
battery of your choice. Just arrange so it comes out to the same
voltage, and include whatever battery management hardware you need, and
the packs could be changed as needed.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Lee Hart wrote:
No, I'm not thinking of forklift batteries. I'd have something like
eight 6v golf cart batteries in that 2'x2'x1' pack. That's 48v and 500
lbs worth. Two such packs would work for a small car, or three for a
pickup.
Yes, this would be great. You'd want to come up with a light but strong
'box' to replace the 1/4" plate steel box that the industrial package
comes in. Those steel cases probably add 100 lbs. to the package weight.
Or, you could fill the 2'x2'x1' box with Optimas, or lithiums, or the
battery of your choice. Just arrange so it comes out to the same
voltage, and include whatever battery management hardware you need, and
the packs could be changed as needed.
Yup. In pickups where one doesn't mind giving up some of the bed space,
this approach would work well right now.
With some ingenuity, a pickup with a tilt bed could still use this setup
and have a fully usable bed, though it would most likely have to be a
direct drive affair to get rid of the drive line that's right in the
way. Once the drive line issue is gone, say with a rear motor/direct
drive affair, then a flat rectangular shaped pack could drop right in,
one under the bed fitting in ahead of the rear axle and just behind the
cab between the frame rails, the other under the hood. With a small
electric hoist like the ones offered at Harbor Freight, and with a hood
that opened to near vertical and a bed that tilts the same way, the two
packs could be pulled and replaced in 5 minutes per pack.
See Ya......John Wayland
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Jim Husted could shorten your motor.
http://www.freewebs.com/hitorqueelectric/jaysadcgamera9.htm
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Note that the prices quoted on the Myers website include installation labor.
They still seem on the high side. Has anyone actually confirmed that they
are asking $35k for the vehicle? That's about what a 4-passenger Solectria
Force cost, btw.
They definitely aren't shy about wearing their religion on their sleeves,
but I don't see anything on the site that says "God told them to overprice
this stuff." Can you provide a URL? ;-)
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Even if we manage to do solve these problems, we'd still have to develop
a pack-swapping infrastructure.
instead of pack-swapping, a much better solution would be investing the
capital on zinc-air "refueling" stations... just as fast as swapping,
with far less problems
(zinc-air is a primary battery chemistry - it needs to be mechanically
"recharged")... given that zinc-based chemistries are environmentally
benign and there aren't serious resource limitations, and that zinc-air
recharging systems alredy exist (in prototype, at least), and that
zinc-air has a decent power-density, and that the "refueling" system
)ie: a driver can plug the gose into the car to remove the spent zinc
pellets and load in new ones, etc) is self-servable, etc, it makes a lot
of sense...
strangely enough, the most cogent agrument I've heard against zinc-air
"recharging/refueling" systems is that "they don't exist yet" which, in
some minds, apparently, seems to be the ultimate damnation...
in any case, it seems to be a far more practical and realistic solution
than pack-swapping, since it avoids almost all of the downsides of
pack-swapping (except for the capitalization and adoption requirements)
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Hi Lee, John and All,
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: John Wayland wrote:
> Yes, it's done in the warehousing industry as a norm. Warehouses that
> run their lift trucks 24/7 'depend' on battery swapping and have a
> battery room and gantry crane to do the job. It takes all of 5 minutes,
> from the moment the operator drives his tired forklift into the bay,
> until the time he's rolling away with a freshly charged battery...
Thanks John. That was a great summary.
Yes it was good !!
Another poster, I forgot who did a great job on how the details
could work like fines, power decreasing for deeply discharging the pack to keep
them healthy.
> You'd need at least two of the 48V, 2600 lb. type batteries to get
> to 96V...
No, I'm not thinking of forklift batteries. I'd have something like
eight 6v golf cart batteries in that 2'x2'x1' pack. That's 48v and 500
lbs worth. Two such packs would work for a small car, or three for a
pickup.
My Freedom EV would work great and easily set up to do this with say
2 36vdc t105 packs, 380 lbs each for 80/100 mile range or even better with a
500 lb li-ion pack good for over 200 miles probably. It should take under 5
minutes to do.
And the Sunrise has a slide out the rear pack design already for easy
replacement.
But until the infastructure is there, semi fast charging, long
battery range and/or a sometimes generator put in for long distance travel will
have to do.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Or, you could fill the 2'x2'x1' box with Optimas, or lithiums, or the
battery of your choice. Just arrange so it comes out to the same
voltage, and include whatever battery management hardware you need, and
the packs could be changed as needed.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
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Again, ask yourselves what you would do if you had ~70 bodies left over
from Corbin and you couldn't manufacture any more, as the tools and dies
had been destroyed.
In my mind, they're being fairly sane about it, after a false start.
They're doing a limited run of 36 vehicles, priced through the moon.
They're using that experience to learn enough to build a follow-on
vehicle.
I think that they'll find 36 people or corporate entities that don't
care about the difference between ~$20$ and ~$35K. In the mean time,
they get to go slow and learn. They also get to keep reserves in stock,
as they're only selling half of what they have in the warehouse.
- Jake Oshins
(Former Myers Motors first customer, when they only wanted $18K.)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Myers motors update
Note that the prices quoted on the Myers website include installation
labor.
They still seem on the high side. Has anyone actually confirmed that
they
are asking $35k for the vehicle? That's about what a 4-passenger
Solectria
Force cost, btw.
They definitely aren't shy about wearing their religion on their
sleeves,
but I don't see anything on the site that says "God told them to
overprice
this stuff." Can you provide a URL? ;-)
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Note that the prices quoted on the
Myers website include installation labor.
They still seem on the high side. Has anyone actually confirmed that they
are asking $35k for the vehicle?
I've seen it in a new release they put out. And it's on the
Sparrow list.
That's about what a 4-passenger Solectria
Force cost, btw.
Amazing isn't it!!
They definitely aren't shy about wearing their religion on their sleeves,
but I don't see anything on the site that says "God told them to overprice
this stuff." Can you provide a URL? ;-)
It's implied as what they do is based on their religionous views as
per their values statement.
And for the poster that asked what was wrong with the Sparrow and now
the NmG, it has a CG that is too high, too far aft that when combined
especially with a very narrow width, makes it rather unstable which means you
need to be careful when driving it and not make any quick turns at speed or
even in reverse slowly turning on a slope where one flipped at under 5 mph. And
as Bob says, you put it on, not get into so for many, too small.
If done right, 3wh EV's can handle great beating most 4wh sportscars
but when done wrong can be real bad. The Sparrow can be good transportation if
driven carefully.
Now add to that short range, expensive batteries, high cost from a
design that is too complicated, hard, labor, parts intensive and you have an EV
that could be much better for the same cost or much less cost.
BTW Robert Q Riley is now their inhouse engineer.
But it's really beyond help and they need and I've encouraged them to
start from scratch.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Don B. Davidson III wrote:
> Anything I can claim on my taxes as these are ZEV (zero emission
> vehicles)?
> I will be facing NY State Dept of Motor Vehicles for the first time next
> spring when I register my EV. Again, can I expect any "incentives" for using
> a ZEV or can I expect to be penalized for not buying gasoline and paying the
> "gas" tax?
Have a look at some of these:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/state_summary.cgi?afdc/NY
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I don't think they've look into lithium batteries recently. They
might not have even looked into EV's since the late 1990's.
They could take their existing car and truck models and with very
little modification make them electric powered. They ideally should
use off the shelf motors, controllers, chargers, and batteries,
instead of the custom black box parts they are known for making and
using.
What kind of range could they get with lithium?
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Brian,
Do I remember right that you have dual motors on the rear wheels? How do you
have this set up mechanically? Any photos?
Thanks,
John
John Foster
Dynasty Electric Car Co
www.itiselectric.com
Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association
www.veva.bc.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Brian D.Hall
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2005 6:03 PM
To: ev post
Subject: EV racing
What a busy year it has been, it's nearing the end of 2005 and I have not
gone to the drags, Racing yet!
One last event at Infineon Raceway on Sunday and I'm trying to get ICE
breaker ready. New line lock installed, new Orbitals, new paint and some
more tuning of the Z2k and I'm off.By the way, the voltage is going up, I
was planning on running 192 volts this week end, but I'm having trouble
keeping the front wheels on the ground at 144 volts ,so I guess I will see
what I can break with this low voltage car and just keep raising the voltage
until the axels go. %^). My EV grin is out of control.
Brian D. Hall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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