EV Digest 5054
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Interpoles was Reverseing a siamese motor
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: clutch for Mitsubishi pu with 11" net gain motor
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV Geo: Question about Battery Boxes
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: battery monitor suggestions
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Alternator as a motor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Interpoles was Reversing a Siamese motor - TEVan motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: E-meter no-no's
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more power"
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Clutch for Mitsubishi PU
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Reverseing a siamese motor was Re: Interpoles, was..
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Madman is back from MG
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Tax Credit for Conversion
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Otmars new home
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Hybrid motor mounting, poof goes the car
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Reverseing a siamese motor, an' stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim and all
At 10:19 PM 3/01/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
Hey Chris, Lee, All
I've worked on only two types of lift motor that used interpoles one being
the 13" Allis Chalmers and a smaller 10" Toyota of a type I never saw
again. What I know of them is they tend to run slower at lower amps with
increased torque as compared to their 4-poled counterparts.
That should only be a function of total field strength, I would expect a
given motor to run at some speed forward (without the interpoles in
circuit) and slower in reverse (with the interpoles in circuit, magnetic
fields adding) or faster in reverse (with the interpoles in circuit,
magnetic fields subtracting). The slower speed and lower amps would
indicate greater number of field turns relative to the motors you are
comparing to.
<snip> An added benefit to interpoles are it makes for friendly regen, if
I understand it correctly.
Not if they are series interpoles (the only one of my motors that I know
has interpoles has series interpoles). The interpoles are there (in theory)
to push the magnetic field around to keep the brushes optimised (advanced)
in both forward and reverse, instead of advanced in forward and very
retarded in reverse, or neutral.
A shunt interpole could be very good for regening ((is that a word?)) as
well as reversing.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think a centerforce would be good for an EV. They are designed to
clamp harder at higher revs. A clutch for an EV needs to hold at very low
RPMs. I think a Long and Beck 3 finger would be better with a lot of spring
pressure.
-----Original Message-----
From: David (Battery Boy) Hawkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:50 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Re: clutch for Mitsubishi pu with 11" net gain motor
Steve,
When I replaced ours back in May, Bill Dube' had pointed me towards
www.clutchnet.com for the RX-7's tire smoking torque, and according to Bill
the owner claims "It vill nott shlipp!". Although I went with a cheap
clutch pack just to get it back on the road for my daughter (after
determining the adapter plate and motor hub are junk, and the vehicle is
rusted out, so we are no longer looking for just an RX-7 as a new glider),
clutchnet quoted $185 for the Copper-Copper Pro #2 disc and $175 for the
type 1 pressure plate. The bearing and alignment tool was $35, so close to
$400 for everything. Our local import parts store mentioned
www.centerforce.com which was around $400 also. As they say, you have to
pay to play!
Hope this helps,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the EV-1!) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa
only!)
>From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:30:37 -0500
>
>I'm getting my 83 Mitsubishi ready for the BBB drag's and am finding the
>weak links , one by one . The motor , a old 9 " adc has me re learning some
>stuff I learned a while ago. This was my 5th conversion and has been
>through 2
>owners . It sat around a year , When setting it up with the new parts I
spun
>the motor on a 12v battery and though at the time it wasn't spinning very
>fast for 12v , . I put a 1k zilla and 22 orbitals in and it didn't take
much
>go peddle before I started hearing a shhhhh and a drop in power , . Well I
>decided to pull one brush and found it stuck in the brush holder , I've
seen
>worse where pulling with pliers could hardly get them out but these weren't
>moving easy . Took them out one by one and with just a little rubbing they
>started sliding fine again . Trunk ran much better but some of the brushes
>where chipped , one 1/4 gone . So I'm going easy with it for now , and
>ordered a net gain 11 as I can see this 9 motor and a 2k ( which I hope to
>have before BBB day ) would not make it . I'll get the 9 out and use him
for
>another low power project. What I'm finding out as the 9 gets broken it is
>that now the clutch is slipping at about 400 amps when in 3ed gear . What
>would people recommend of a clutch , and where to get it . I'm not looking
>for the best , just a lot better :-) .
>I weighted it and right now its 3250 lbs .
>
>The next week link is the rear , its not a posi rear , This I don't think I
>can do anything about before the 21st.
>Steve Clunn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone on the list advised me a while ago to lineX the battery boxes. I
guarantee you won't be able to scratch through that stuff.
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EV Geo: Question about Battery Boxes
Mark, I found that "painting" the interior of the boxes to be unreliable for
electrical insulation (simple scratches were to bare metal). In my case, I
needed to thermally insulate the boxes anyways (Canada and our annual 8' of
snowfall) so the 1/2" of foam provided adequate electrical insulation.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Freidberg
Sent: January 3, 2006 6:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV Geo: Question about Battery Boxes
Some list members may recall the EV Geo listing on ebay a few weeks ago.
Well anyway, I ended up placing the winning bid.
Cosmetically it is a nice looking EV. No batteries came with it and so how
it really drives remains to be seen.
It has 2 battery boxes. Both boxes are made of 1/8" stainless steel. Their
exterior sides are upholstered to match the car interior. But inside, they
are just exposed stainless steel and so electrically conductive.
Normally one really doesn't want conductivity inside the boxes right? Can
I just brush on a couple coats of paint as "shielding"? Other suggestions
are welcome.
Mark Freidberg
EAA member in Portland
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Paul
If you can afford it an e meter is my pick . Knowing the ah ( amp hours ) is
helpful , this lets you know how your batteries are doing , if your charging
them right. By knowing how many amp hours you can take out before the
voltage starts to fall and noticing any change . I even have a e meter on
my e lawn mower , . They are small , . Next would be a volt meter and amp
meter . Both these can be make for plan 1 ma meters . for the Volt meter
the right resistor ( you can add a zener diode and have a meter that reads
between 10 and 15 volts ( don't know your pack voltage , this would be for
12v) , for this set up you'd need a 10 v zener and a 5k resistor ( 1k drops
1v at 1 ma) . The Amp meter can be the same type meter ( 1 ma ) and hook it
across (parallel one of the cables ( may need a long cable to get the
voltage drop high enough to move the meter where you like it ) . The e meter
gives you all this info also . Now Victor has a meter coming out That is
going to do it all and data log , save on some kind of memory card and down
load to your computer .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:25 AM
Subject: battery monitor suggestions
What do you guys think i should buy for monitoring the battery
pack/usage on my motorcycle?
Size and weight are the biggest concerns.
Thanks in advance!
Paul
---------------------------------
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Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am considering doing some experiments using a 24V truck alternator as a three
phase motor with a view to powering a small EV. Having just ordered a small
(800W) three phase inverter to play with I am wondering if any one on the list
has had experience using alternators as motors and/or has suggestions for other
motor possibilities.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar,
The Dodge TEVan had a nominal 180Vdc NiCd or NiFe
battery pack (thats about 204-210Vdc open circuit).
The motor was a 9" GE Sepex with interpoles and the
center of the rotor shaft allowed oil to circulate for
cooling.
Sounds like a perfect motor for your testing if you
can find one.
We did have arcing problems on this motor if the regen
current
was cranked up to high. I never noticed regen battery
current above 40Amps while driving.
Same problem with field weakening, if you weaken to
far you will have arcing problems.
I noticed that using 2 strong blowers from work to
keep brush dust to a minimum reduced the occurance of
arcing. These blowers operated at 40CFM at 10 inches
of H2O.
Each blower was ducted in at the commutator end with
the typical shroud that wraps around the brush access
holes.
Rod
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:19 PM -0800 1/3/06, Jim Husted wrote:
> ......
> >An added benefit to interpoles are it makes for
> >friendly regen, if I understand it correctly.
> >Ive been thinking about the interpoled motors
> >and whether they are subject to the 170 armature
> >volts that the 4 pole motor are limited to. Hey
> >Otmar, whats your thought on that? Ever
> >monster test any interpolled motors?
>
> Hey Jim,
> I have never run a interpoled motor in my cars.
> >From what Plasma Boy reports, his interpoled
> Kostov took well over 200V without flashing over.
> I believe Dennis Berube is also running high
> voltages on his GE's which I think have
> interpoles in addition to the motorized brush
> advance. (but I could be wrong on the interpoles).
>
> Regen with interpoles is a big unknown in my
> mind. I've determined that negative brush advance
> is not enough to avoid serious arcing in regen on
> ADC motors. (despite what people would like to
> belive), and we've run a SepEx Zilla on a SepEx
> 9" ADC with not much benefit. The one test that I
> would still like to do is run a interpoled motor
> with regen at 144V+.
>
> Now that I'm relatively close to you here in
> Oregon I can see that we'll need to be running
> some experiments!
> Somewhere here I have camera and equipment for
> watching the commutation while driving, and the
> regen adaptor for the Zilla is hanging on the
> wall... We're just needing a interpoled car to
> try it on. Something with a clutch, shifting
> gears and 144 to 192V would probably be ideal to
> start.
> Let me know if you find a test mule. :)
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
> Now accepting applications for employment. No, I
> have not yet written the job description! It's
> doing everything except engineering. Will train
> the right person.
>
> No sales tax! :)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A good list Don , I'll add a few things.
6 Test your dc to dc , power it up and with a cheep o meter ( one you
don't mind throwing out ) measure the current from one of the inputs to the
out puts . There should be NONE . not a ma or a ua ( I test all four
ays - to - - to + + to - and + to + ) of course you don't want to test
across both input or out puts you will see current there :-) .
.7 hook up all the grounds first and when un hooking take off the sense +
first then power + . don't let these wires flop around when you have them
off , tape the ends , any leakage from traction pack to frame and a sense or
power wire hits the frame , you have a dead meter.
8 I have been putting a 6 pin plug on all my e meters , and unplug the meter
before doing any thing like putting new batteries in or taking off any
battery cable.
9 I have yet to see any fuse save an e meter . I keep letting them try , I
have seen the fuses get a little corroded and meter starts to read wrong . I
now use the pig tail fuses a .25 amp for the sense and .5 for the power. I
solder them in and put heat shrink tubing over them .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: E-meter no-no's
I am sure you will get a few replies to this.
1) make sure pack and supply polarity are correct.
2) make sure that the shunt is connected to the proper side of the pack as
indicated in the manual
3) power it ONLY from a regulated isolated source, such as a small DC-DC
4) DO NOT power it my "tapping" into your pack as suggested by the manual
(this has blown at least a couple of EMeters)
5) there is also a sequence to hooking up the lines - I just have been
lucky
(in that respect).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Quoting damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
I recently purchased an E-meter from grassrootsev.com I would like to
start
playing with. It is for my motorcycle which reaches up to about 75 volts
during charge, so I also purchased the 100v prescaler. I know there are
some definite no-no's when hooking up and removing e-meters to keep from
frying them. I also seem to remeber mention of some incorrect wiring
diagrams in the manuals.
What are the "set in stone rules" to follow to avoid frying a new e-meter
and what are some of the common ways of accidently breaking these rules?
thanks
damon
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Clif,
I wouldn't put more than 14 batts in a Metro, 6V makes 84V or 8V makes 112V.
I originally had Curtis 1221B's but after popping two, I made my own. I had
a ferro-resonant transformer with the secondary set for a split 2-diode
center battery tap, was from a 36V Elec-Trak (or golf cart) charger. The
back seat was removed and 4 were sunk there in an aluminum box, 2 behind the
front seats on the floor, 4 where the spare tire was and 2 up front near the
motor. I added an antisway bar and helper springs and retained the vacuum
brakes with a Gast pump.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clif Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more
power"
> Hi Mark,
> I'm considering a 96V metro conversion. Was your metro a hatchback or
> sedan? Where were your batteries located? What motor, controller, and
> charger did you have on the metro. What DOD was the car at after 25
miles?
> What speeds did you commute at? Any other thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Clif
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with
"more
> power"
>
>
> >I had an Electro Metro as you describe with 14ea 6V batts (84V). I used
> >all
> > 5 gears though for best performance and top speed was 65mph. About
> > average
> > geo-metro type acelleratuion and I drove the freeway to GE-EV EVery day
> > 25miles one way and charged at work (paid back $8 per month). I later
> > switched to 8Ver's for 112V (didn't use 5th then), same 30 mile range
and
> > better aceleration performance but 84V was ok though and the 6Vers
lasted
> > longer, about 14k miles vs 10k for the 8vers (and cheaper too, ie, Sams)
> > Mark
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 11:52 AM
> > Subject: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more
> > power"
> >
> >
> >> I'm considering my options on the "small car" commuter EV that I was
> > planning
> >> on building. Having owned 3 "poor performing" EVs in the past 6 years,
I
> >> don't want to repeat that situation. If if won't perform, I won't
build
> > it. My
> >> goals have been and still are:
> >>
> >> 1. Good acceleration - 0 - 45 MPH in ~15 sec or less (faster is
better!)
> >> 2. Speed - Capable of 55 MPH, even though I don't plan to take it over
45
> > MPH
> >> 3. Hill climbing - We have them, and it needs to be able to make it up
a
> >> "decent grade" at 35 MPH
> >> 4. Range - 15 miles round trip - same route every day 25 - 45 MPH city
> >> traffic. Stop signs about every 0.75 - 1 miles. Actual mileage = 6.2
> > miles each
> >> way, but 15 miles gives me a buffer for stopping at a store on the way
> > home.
> >> 5. Late model - parts still available for at least the next 5 years.
> >>
> >> I already have the following parts:
> >> 1. Series wound 7.2" x 15" fork lift motor
> >> 2. GE EV-1B controller - 84 V with 1A bypass (I have no idea what the
> >> continuous rating on the controller is, but I am guessing about 150 A).
> >> I
> > wanted to
> >> build my own 144 V / 600 A controller, but I have been talked out of
it.
> >> 3. Main contactor
> >> 4. Other misc parts left over from my other cars
> >>
> >>
> >> Two options:
> >>
> >> First option - "The less expensive car"
> >> 1992 Ford Festiva - I actually like the way is looks and low curb
weight
> >> manual trans - retain clutch - use 2nd and 3rd gear only
> >> EV-1B controller (150 A cruise, 84 V / 500 A full power for
acceleration
> >> /
> >> steep hill climbing)
> >> - I realize this controller will reduce battery life because of the
> > 300
> >> Hz SCR switching speed, but maybe I can help it with some caps.
> >> 84 V - 14 x 6 V golf cart batteries (Sams Club)
> >> - Dispersed around the car
> >> - 4 in far rear - sunk low through cut out in floor
> >> - 4 center of car behind front seats (remove rear seats) -
floor
> > level
> >> - 2 where front pass seat was - floor level
> >> - 4 in front where radiator was - sunk low
> >> - Not the best batteries, but usable. Maybe I'd spring for some
> > T-125's.
> >>
> >> Charger
> >> - www.northerntool.com, 72 V / 10 A charger + 1 12 V deep cycle 10
A
> >> charger
> >> Modifications
> >> - I didn't plan to modify the suspension or brakes with only 800 lb
> >> of
> >> batteries dispersed around the car, sunk low front and rear, I think it
> > will be
> >> OK with stock suspension and brakes.
> >> Cost (parts only):
> >> $500 - donor car - 1992 Festiva - 130,000 miles - running condition
> >> $200 - batt boxes - home made
> >> $140 - controller + two main disconnect contactors one on the +ve
and
> > one
> >> on the -ve (already have them)
> >> $50 - pot box (used)
> >> $50 - main fuse and contactor drivers + other spare parts (salvage
> > lift
> >> parts)
> >> $160 - motor (I already have it)
> >> $265 - motor coupler and mounting plate - my design - material
only -
> >> labor not included
> >> $200 - Charger #1
> >> $40 - Charger #2
> >> $125 - 2/0 welding cable + terminals (I'm not sure about this cost)
> >> $770 - batteries - ~$55 / ea including tax
> >> $65 - aux battery
> >>
> >> $2565 Total
> >> -$320 Tax credit (12.5% - 10% State of GA + 2.5% Federal for 2006)
> >> $2245 Net cost
> >>
> >> Notes:
> >> - NO DC - DC convertor
> >> - Little to no instrumentation (although I can get current reading off
> >> the
> >> EV-1, and voltage off the pack)
> >>
> >>
> >> With all that said and detailed out, I have several concerns.
> >> 1. I don't want to build an "electric jalopy". I've owned 3, and have
no
> >> need for another.
> >> 2. Is the motor at 7.2" undersized to much?
> >> 3. Only 84 V ? Can I meet my acceleration requirements with the EV-1B
> >> and
> > 1A
> >> bypass?
> >> 4. The charger - really may be too slow to recharge 12 miles of range
> >> over
> > a
> >> 12 hour period. It may not work for that reason.
> >> 5. Handling if I don't modify the suspension / brakes.
> >>
> >>
> >> Second Option:
> >> - 1993 Ford Festiva (last year made), Chevy Metro 2 door (last year
> >> made), Honda Civic hatchback (early 90's)
> >> - 9" Warp or ADC
> >> - 14 x 12 V = 168 V Optima batteries
> >> - 1k Zilla controller
> >> - PFC 20 Charger
> >> - DC - DC convertor
> >> - power steering off aux motor
> >> - bower brakes off vac booster
> >> - retain two front seats - remove others
> >> - sink batts low for low CG center, front and rear - that's a lot
of
> >> cutting through the floor.
> >> - e-meter with instrumentation
> >> - some type of suspension and handling upgrades dependent on donor
> >> car
> >>
> >> Projections:
> >> Acceleration - FAST! - And I would look forward to that!
> >> Top Speed - 80+ MPH
> >> Range - >30 miles
> >> Cost - Parts ~$7500 (Please correct me if I am way off)
> >>
> >> The question becomes, what direction should I take? One option is to
> > build
> >> with the 9" motor, but still use the 84 V controller with bypass and 14
x
> > 6 V
> >> batteries and inexpensive charger. Later upgrade if "used parts"
become
> >> available.
> >>
> >> But, if the first option can give me decent acceleration, it may work
> >> just
> >> fine for meeting my original needs. So, my question is: Does anyone
have
> > any
> >> experience using the EV-1 with bypass at 84 V with a 7" x 15", 36 V
lift
> > motor?
> >> It may work just fine. But, if I build it, I'd sure like to be sure it
> > will
> >> work.
> >>
> >> Suggestions?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked at the tilton sit and that is one nice clutch. didn't see any
prices , . This got me thinking , could one get a common hub for a say s
10 , get there s 10 fly wheel and then put in the disks for the tranny one
has , . The one on e bay 8027285966 is for a sb Chevy 7 1/4 " 26 spline
clutch . I didn't see any of there fly wheels with out starter gears . So I
could get the above and just buy 2 disks to fit the Mitsubishi tranny
spline , and a hub to fit above flywheel . I wonder if they would make a fly
wheel just for us ev'ers , with a 1 1/8 taper lock hub . They could corner
the market with that. getting ready for the next big wave of ev'ers . .
Steve Clunn
from: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: Clutch for Mitsubishi PU
There are tons of dual plate racing clutches and tilton will put splines
in disk when they are ordered. my 3 new plates with the nissan spline
came to $165, i got the flywheel and clutch for <200 on ebay.(M&R Racing)
If you make or use an adapter to small block chevy then you don't have
to worry about Mitsubishi specific :-)
This was the approach I went on the 300zx, but tried to use a 5.5"
3plate with racing disks not rallay disks(no springs) The first time I
used it the driveline rang, I had to learn how to let the clutch out
slower on the 2-3 shift. These cannot be slipped, but EV's don't need to
slip. The one I got came of a formula atlantic and could handle
something like 600 hp. This was a mistake only because it was a thick
clutch and I had to shorten the tranny snout to give the throw out
bearing some room and a special bearing(from a 350z) was needed. I
recommend instead a dual plate 7" on thin flywheel.
Michelle at m and r racing was really great, lots of used inventory!
http://www.mrracingequipment.com/
go to tilton's site for a listing of spline sizing and quartermaster
clutches are bolt in compatable with tilton
http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=74&m=d
ebay items
8026153642
8027285966
there are lots of tilton and quartermaster clutches avil cause everyone
went to 3 and 4 plate 4.5 when the rules changed.
Here is a hi res photo of my clutch. proof positive that it was smooth
and safe at rpms that destroy series wound motors :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey James
Actually on the ADC 8's there is very little room left between the coils, but
the height on the coils are almost end to end on the housing length. ADC also
made an XP version that had a 16 turn coil but this was a smaller wire with
more turnes but equalling the same mass. Now if sometime in the future Wayland
was to allow me to remove a couple of wraps from his coils lets say from a 12
turn to an 8 to 10 turn that would allow room for reapplying turns as you
discribe. Although he would lose some torque the motors would have a higher
RPM at X current. Now if he lost to much torque then plumbing the coils to
series would again reduce the RPM's but would increase torque back. Either way
it would allow room to try your suggestion. Being the twins are running so
well I believe we need to test this out seperate of Johns twins and try it on a
single motor for data.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 10:19 PM 3/01/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
>Hey Chris, Lee, All
>
>Now adding interpoles will definately cause you to loose more main
>coil. Even with motors that are small fielded there would not be room to
>simply add interpoles.
Hi Jim and all
Question for Jim, since he's the man whose been and seen all to know about
Johns' motors for White Zombie.
This is back to the reversing thing...
Is there enough space around the fields to wind a shunt field, wound on top
of the series field, that can be reverse polarity powered to give the
reverse John needs?
I sent John a possible contactor arrangement off-list that turned out to be
the exact last arrangement John had used for reverse, which put the fields
in series with the other motors' armatures, and uses a power contactor to
isolate the field and two small ones to reconnect the field in reverse
(using the opposite motor means there are already isolating contactors from
the series/parallel thing, allows using the controller for reverse power
control):
_________________________
[M+] |C1a and C1b parallel mode|
| | |
| | C1a |
| + - | + - o--o |
|-[A1]--|--[F2]-|---o o---| |
| | | |
| o--o | | |
|only C2 |-o o--| | |
|Series | C2 C4a | |
| mode | o--o | |
| |-| |---o o------| |
| | | C3 | |
| o--o | + - | + - o--o | |
|-o o-|-[A2]-|-[F1]-|-o o-|-[M-] |
C1b | |
| o--o |
|--o o-------|
C4b
Adding C3 - a high power carrying contactor to isolate field of motor 1
when in reverse, and C4a and C4b, two lower-power contactors to power up
the field of motor 1 when in reverse. John believes the extra resistance of
C3 unbalanced the motors and reduced power delivery. So, how about a
shunt-winding extra field for reverse?
[M+] C1a, C1b parallel mode
| C1a
| o--o
|-[A1]---[F2]-|---o o---|
| | |
| o--o | |
| |--o o-| |
| | C2 Series mode |
| o--o | |
|-o o-|-[A2]---[F1]------|-[M-]
C1b
o--o o--o
B+---o o---[F1shunt]---o o----B-
C3a C3b
Shunt winding powers up (C3a, C3b) to provide a reversed field, C1a [only]
turns on to provide armature currrent from the controller through armature
of motor 1 (which has a powered field from the shunt winding) and the field
of motor 2 [which has no armature current so tries to do no work].
If there is enough space in the motor, this may be the simplest reverse for
John. If not, then to use a NiMh or lithium cell/small pack to power the
normal shunt field in reverse, along the lines of:
C1a, C1b parallel mode
[M+] C1a
| o--o
|-[A1]-----[F2]-|---o o---|
| | |
| o--o | |
| |--o o---| |
| | C2 Series mode |
| o--o | |
|-o o-|-[A2]-|-[F1]----|---|-[M-]
C1b | o--o |
| |-o o-|
| | C3
[- +]
NiMh cell/pack
Again, closing C1a powers motor 1 armature (the current going through motor
2 field only adds inductance), allowing control from the controller.
Closing C3 powers the field of motor 1 from the cell/pack (depending on the
field voltage and current needed to get the reverse speed needed).
Kicking ideas around, stirring the pot...
Regards
James
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rich,
After everything was done, race and burn, should have tested out the PFC to see
if it will blow!!!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: Madman is back from MG
Roland...
Same battery as IS. Except they programmed the internal brain for NO current
limit.
On second thoughts... maybe a Max limit would have been safer..
But we had NO battery fails once the EV got togther.
We did short a set of 16 out while figuring out the battery rack build up.
Actually John Zick and Shawn did that.. I was on another task at that
moment.
The set up was a recepticle from a Tool, was bolted between a pair of 1 by
1/2 copper buss bars, one on each side, this made for a 16 battery "module"
Most of which was thought up as we went along by John Zick of Milwaukee
Tool. A Battery pack was a pair of these for 96 amphoura @ 28 volts. A Rack
was two of these packs, and a Deck was 2 Racks cabled tother. The Stack was
3 Decks. For a niminal voltage of 336.
Yes we uses 210 stock chargers. The most we ever got on line was about 100.
We backed off when we sucked 103 amps of 120 VAC from the 100 amp Lighting
circuits. The only time we actually got to this power point was Thursday
morning, after we got the batteries out and the paint Crew took over. Or
just before we went Drinking... in ernest.
Nope, no way to get to every comm port on each batter jack...or the bottom
racks for that matter once the Stack was assembled.
The first ideas was 420 batteries and 210 chargers. We could not find a safe
place for the last pack.
Like I said we ran out of 120VAC current before we ran out of chargers.
This is not how I would have done it. But it is the only way to do it...
with what we had on hand.
I brought a PFC30 to the Build... nobody wanted to try it on $42,000 worth
of batteries.
Solving this issue of massivley paralleled Lion packs and BMS and charging
and saftey and GAS Gage, and protection, is somthing few have done....well
or at all.
It's most likley going to be a huge part of my future in chargers and BMS
designs. One way or the other.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Madman is back from MG
> Hello Rich,
>
> I was at Home Depot and happen to see one of the Milwaukee 28 volt battery
pack and charger.
>
> Did they used the tool batteries as is?, or were they modified to bolt on
a buss bar connections.
>
> Did you used the same type of charger that is used on these battery packs?
>
> It looks like that the chargers could be modified, so that all the
batteries could be charge while left in the vehicle. Just slide in a
connection with battery clip leads into the charger and connect to each 28
volt battery.
>
> This would work, if the each battery was not parallel to each other, but
were install in a string of 9 for 252 volts and than the strings were all
parallel together.
>
> Of course it would take 384 chargers if you wanted to charge them all at
the same time.
>
> Roland
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 9:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Madman is back from MG
>
>
> Madman,
>
> I must admit your level of BS is only overshadowed by your self
> confidence.
>
> Thank god you were there to keep it all together.
>
> Are you sure Shawn was even there at all?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Drunk and Worthless (Shawn and John)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>
> To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:14:10 -0800
> Subject: Re: Madman is back from MG
>
> Yea I am Back...
> a Little hacked off... Still amazed at what we did... and that we are
> all
> alive with no burns...
>
> I have to do some reading to catch up on a LOT of threads...
>
> The abuse didn't stop... the MG crew just kept the crap coming.
>
> The West Coast Chopper crew were the fine professionals you would
> expect.
> They deserve a heart felt thanks, they get to straiten out the things
> the MG
> teams don't get right.
> We took about 2.5 hours of thier time...We had one of the cleanest
> builds
> they ever had.
>
> The paint guys were under the impossible time limits we were, They got
> there
> at the crack of dawn like we did... And Busted Butt.
> If we were not at the paint booth at 6:15 am we would not have had a
> chance
> to remove and charge the Z28 Lions. We got very lucky by getting up
> early.
> That would be Shawn and I.
> John was still in the air I don't think he even got any sleep coming in
> from
> Milwaukee.
> After we unloaded the Batteries, Shawn had to run and pick up John Zick
> from
> Millwaukee at the airport.
> This was all happening on Thursday... the day we were supposed to have
> the
> Car from Dawn To dusk for our EV tune ups and testing... Yea... Right...
> At 11:20 am we had all the Z28 Lions charged... and no car to load them
> into...
> The only reasonable thing to do... was simply get Messed up Drunk.
>
> We did that with Team spirt... 100 flavors of Tequila. At Tequila Jack's
> down on the Long Beach water front. 6800 air miles... and No car to
> work
> on.
> We got there at 11:32... two minutes after opening... Right on time I
> would
> say.
> They take away our one day to clean stuff up....Nice..... Gimme another
> one.
> Sara, the Blonde California Barmaid Goddess... did a real good job of
> keeping the EoTH flowing...
> I got tossed the Keys at about 3pm... I was dry by 5pm .... Shawn and
> John... were... getting sloppy by that time.....
> And doing dangerous things with cell phones and Monster Garage phone
> lists...
>
> Oh Boy....What fun...
>
> We got out of the Bar at about 5 pm... got back to the motel...where I
> hear
> they had the bar set up ....without the Check in guy's help...
> We all had a glass of wine ready to go... then Shawn's cell phone
> rings...
> Hey the cars Ready!! Clearly they knew we were drunk... and in no
> shape to
> drive,
> 'Cept for one thing...Madman was Still Clean ... I never downed that
> glass
> of wine. Shawn says Great see ya in 10 minutes with the fresh
> batteries...
>
> I think I could hear the MG guy laughing...when shawn shut his Phone
> off.
>
> Kill mode on.... We all jumped back into the Sub...thank God Shawn
> upgraded
> the Rental!... we were at MG in about 4 minutes...yea I was driving...
> loaded up the 384 Z28 Lions..
> And were at West Coast Choppers in about another 2 minutes... Just in
> time
> to see the MG Guy pull out and leave in haste....
> What the Heck???
>
> We drove into the Paint booth ....just in time to see the paint guy
> spraying
> the Clear coat on..... That kept us off the car until morning....
> Nice here we go again....now we don't even have a late night thrash...
> The
> paint guys have been busting Butt all day. The car is a Sharp Milwaukee
> Tool
> RED with logos and letters. it looks sharp!
> Again the folks at West Coast have done the impossible... But now we
> are out
> of time with 900 lbs of Lions in the back of the Sub.....Our only work
> slot
> is from 5 am on Friday to 7:45 amp when it HAS TO BE on the trailer to
> the
> Track.....160 miles up the road.
>
> So..What do we do..... more drink... lets get some real food instead of
> ...
> the liquid kind...Off to Green Banks Brizillian Steak House... more
> Margaritas... and more Red meat.
> We were back by 10 something to get up at 4:30 to do our best with what
> time
> we had.
>
> This is just Day one down there....
>
> Day two Starts at 4:15 with Shawn and I planning the day in the dark...
> Not
> a LOT of sleep ,just enough...
> More later...
>
>
> MADMAN.
>
> My Redhead is trying to keep me dry on Newyear's Eve.... I really do
> need to
> clense the body... But I am still just a bit to....
> Oh you get the idea.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For starters, be glad you're getting any credit. It was supposed to have been
phased out 2 years ago, but the nasty Bush administration extended it.
Then, write your congress-person's and request that it again be extended in
full effect, indefinately.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Tax Credit for Conversion
I was just reviewing the federal tax form and found out that they are
reducing the tax credit for conversions. Conversions placed into service in
2005 (ending today) get a 10% credit. Starting tomorrow, the credit is only
2.5%.
That sure doesn't make me very happy. Also, I see that credits offered by
my home state (Georgia) are not what they used to be. They are offering a
10% credit as well, but it used to be $2500 a few years ago. I seem to
remember people buying NEVs (basically golf carts) and getting them free
after the tax credit.
Does anyone know the plans for these credits after 2006? It seems to me
(from the federal form at least) that it may just go away after 2006. I
think we should all write congress and try to get this thing reversed and
back to 10%.
It may not seem like much, but on $6000 worth of conversion parts, I could
have got a credit of $1200. If I can finish within a year, I can only get
$750.
Thats a pretty big deal to me. I was counting on the $1200.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So you made it up here, HooHoo! Man your like 2 hours from me now so I got 4
words for you. Your shop or mine, lol. With Wayland in Portland we 3 form a
nice Electric triangle here in Oregon now. All I got to say is let the party
begin. 2006 just keeps getting better. Congrats on the move, let me know once
things have settled down. I'd really like for you to think about what Otmar
would like to see in a motor and we'll make it happen.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 10:19 PM -0800 1/3/06, Jim Husted wrote:
......
>An added benefit to interpoles are it makes for
>friendly regen, if I understand it correctly.
>Ive been thinking about the interpoled motors
>and whether they are subject to the 170 armature
>volts that the 4 pole motor are limited to. Hey
>Otmar, whats your thought on that? Ever
>monster test any interpolled motors?
Hey Jim,
I have never run a interpoled motor in my cars.
>From what Plasma Boy reports, his interpoled
Kostov took well over 200V without flashing over.
I believe Dennis Berube is also running high
voltages on his GE's which I think have
interpoles in addition to the motorized brush
advance. (but I could be wrong on the interpoles).
Regen with interpoles is a big unknown in my
mind. I've determined that negative brush advance
is not enough to avoid serious arcing in regen on
ADC motors. (despite what people would like to
belive), and we've run a SepEx Zilla on a SepEx
9" ADC with not much benefit. The one test that I
would still like to do is run a interpoled motor
with regen at 144V+.
Now that I'm relatively close to you here in
Oregon I can see that we'll need to be running
some experiments!
Somewhere here I have camera and equipment for
watching the commutation while driving, and the
regen adaptor for the Zilla is hanging on the
wall... We're just needing a interpoled car to
try it on. Something with a clutch, shifting
gears and 144 to 192V would probably be ideal to
start.
Let me know if you find a test mule. :)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting applications for employment. No, I
have not yet written the job description! It's
doing everything except engineering. Will train
the right person.
No sales tax! :)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electro Automotive
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Hybrid motor mounting, poof goes the car
At 06:45 PM 12/29/05 -0700, you wrote:
>Mike, how to you make the transition from inside the car to outside the
car?
>If you have to go through the sheet metal, is there an adapter for the
>spa hose?
...
I don't know of any adaptor to run the hose through the sheet metal.
Mike Brown
....
If you really need one... Go to your local pool/spa dealer and buy the adapter
that connects the spa hose to the pool.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Reverseing a siamese motor
> Thanks for this reply, Lee .. you've touched on something I've been
> curious about for a while.
>
> > Along come EVers, who have the audacity to think that one motor should
> > be able to run on a range of voltages, at a range of speeds and loads.
> >
> > We could go back to adjustable brush rigging; but I think it would be
> > better yet to put the interpoles back in.
>
> What is the benefit of interpoles, vs. variable brush timing? How does
> this compensate for the shifting of the field's neutral plane at high
> speed, in a way that is better than simply moving the brushes? Is it
> because the effect of the interpoles is relatively instantaneous, where
> the brushes will lag when being moved?
>
> Clearly, the use of interpoles implies a solid-state solution, and one
> which requires no advanced control system -- there's a lot of benefit
> there. However, would such windings take up space otherwise used by
> windings which are continuously contributing to output torque? (So,
> would they sacrifice power to gain efficiency?)
>
> Or would the additional windings go in previously empty space, and add
> significant weight to the motor? Would they impair cooling?
>
> If there are no benefits to recommend moveable brushes as superior to
> interpoles, I'll be happily corrected on the point, and highly confused
> as to why something so simple still isn't making its way into any EV
> motor produced today, especially from those who claim to specialize in
> the market. A couple extra turns of wire can't be that expensive for the
> benefit.
>
> --chris
>
> Hi All;
In the 90's 1890's RR and Streetcar folks went with interpole motors,
as the sparking issue was there , the first successful streetcar system,
Frank Spragues in Richmond VA went through , copper brushes, Arced too much,
chewed the comms up, brush shifting, lever on the motor, which was
conveniently on the front porch, so he could adjust the sparking, ur reverse
the car as needed. He, the "Motor" man was a busy guy, tending the
handbrakes too, from his post in the front of the car. Frank Sprague's early
cars went to the under the car nose sususpended motors,his patent, one for
each axle. Same system used today on trolleys, subways and Diseasel lokies.
Before he could put the motors out of reach like that he settled for
interpoles, and (Gasp!) carbon brushes. HIS motore by the 90's ran more
reliabilily, we still RUN cars built back then, at the trolley museum, just
down the road in New Haven.Sprague sold his patents an' stuff to a new
startup called General Electric, they seem to be still around, although
Sprague like Tesla have sorta faded away as household names, sigh!I don't
know , but I THINK that the interpoles on a railway motor are in series with
the fields? They are a smaller pole than the regular field poles.There is
plenty of room in a RR motor, ewhat's a few hundred lbs among friends in a
motor here. a GE 80 is a common turn of the LAST century motor, rated at 25
HP but weighs as much as a Volkswagen! It opens up, like a clamshell, to
work on. A slow turner, geared about 3 to one, it could run a 15 ton car at
a brisk, 35-40 MPH WITH 3 others in a 4 motor car. But they surely put out
more on hills and occasionally towing other cars in a pinch.Load it with a
crush load of over 100 people and it STILL grinds along, GEAR noise is that
happy sound of trolleys, motors are silent, the old streight cut coggie
gears, no side loadings. Later cars went to quieter herringbone cut gears.Or
hilical, but there was a side thrust issue there.
Of course efficiency wasn't an issue here, power came by wire, so RR
motors were built for convenience rather than pure efficiency. Trolley
outfits did other cool stuff; Battery substations for rush hour traffic when
their power plants, alone, woukda bogged down, they floated banks of
batteries to help out and recharged when things slowed down a bit , like
late at night.AC never cought on, til relatively recently for RR motors,
although the power distribution systens ofter were state of the art then, to
quaint AC to DC rotery comveryers along the line. this lingers on today, on
Amtrak's Wash to NYC ex Pennsy main line doing 60 to 25hz! Good God WHY?
Sure would be cheaper to give these substations to the Smithsonian and just
BUY their [EMAIL PROTECTED] as New Haven to Boston is done today at 25k
volts.Traditions linger on. I always said with the origional electrical
system STILL in place we could run the old classic GG-1's again. You can
just go to GG-1.com What OTHER lokie has it;s own website!on line for a fun
read<g>!or Google it for lots of pix and info. Enough GG-1's linger on in RR
Museums, today.Most trend setting or wildly successful electric RR stuff has
been captured for your viewing pleasure in RR museums. Shameless plug here,
get out and enjoy. Arrive in yur EV and chat up the museum guyz for a cool
behind the scenes tour.Throw a stinger over the catenery(working on that)
for a quick charge!A bunch of cast iron starting grids in series, to soften
up the 600 volts to 120 for the batteries<g>! Let'er rip, 300 amps! Or
so.Clip lead to the rail! Rail's negative.Reconnect and you could run a few
trolleys, slowly at 120 volts, backfeeding the wire. Pix, and remembrances
still survive of my taking about 48 volts of T 105's on a board placed
across the truck frame of a old third Ave RR car, two motors, clip leads, in
our case jumper cables, 5 guyz aboard. we trundled down the line at abot 15
mpg, a shop light as a :"headlight" We were "Dispatched ' as a trolley
car<g>! Blended in with the tourist cars.Once won a bet in my electrician
daze that I could run a modern M-2 Metro North traction motor on 12 volts.
Won! Brought a motorcycle battery in and hooked it up, in a couple seconds
the motor began to turn, of course it was just on the shop floor, not hooked
up to anything.Won a cheezeburger at the Mc Darnalds down the road from the
shop!
RR Memories!
Seeya at BBB
Bob
--- End Message ---
