EV Digest 5055
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hybrid motor mounting, poof goes the car
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Interpoles was Reverseing a siamese motor
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: battery monitor suggestions
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hybrid motor mounting, poof goes the car
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: battery monitor suggestions
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Reverseing a siamese motor
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Ford Aspire
by Don Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) subaru justy for doner car
by Don Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Alternator as a motor
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Tax Credit for Conversion
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Alternator as a motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Alternator as a motor
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Reverseing a siamese motor
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: clutch for Mitsubishi pu with 11" net gain motor
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Interpoles was Reversing a Siamese motor
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AIR Lab EWS (was Re: battery monitor suggestions)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) NJ MVC on EV's
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Try a sealtite conduit fitting. They now make these in either metal or all
plastic box connector. Some of them will fit the non-split wire loom or
flexible PVC piping. Also large plastic cable connectors will work. I am
using the black ones in my car to connect wire looms and even black 1 to 2 inch
black ribbed vacuum cleaner hose that look like wire looms in the motor bay.
You may have to shave the rubber cable grips a bit to fit.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Humphrey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: RE: Hybrid motor mounting, poof goes the car
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Electro Automotive
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:06 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Hybrid motor mounting, poof goes the car
At 06:45 PM 12/29/05 -0700, you wrote:
>Mike, how to you make the transition from inside the car to outside the
car?
>If you have to go through the sheet metal, is there an adapter for the
>spa hose?
...
I don't know of any adaptor to run the hose through the sheet metal.
Mike Brown
....
If you really need one... Go to your local pool/spa dealer and buy the
adapter that connects the spa hose to the pool.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Jan 2006 at 22:04, James Massey wrote:
> could be very good for regening ((is that a word?))
No, but "regenerating" is. Or "recuperating," if you're European. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you're interested in monitoring the voltage of each battery in the
string, in real time while driving, I really like Edward Ang's battery
monitoring system:
http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/
The warning light sequence may seem a bit opaque at first, but take a look
at the videos on the site (http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/video/) .. when you
add the audible beeps, the sequences start to make sense. I'm sure you'd be
able to "automatically" interpret the meaning of the beeps after a very
short time.
The only problem is that there is no information on the site on how to
actually get these, in spite of them having already been publically
unveiled. No ordering information, no links to distributors, no prices, no
contact info. Does anyone know any more about this system? Did anyone see
it at the SVEAA Standord rally in September?
Ed, you out there? :o)
--chris
On January 4, 5:25 am paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What do you guys think i should buy for monitoring the battery
> pack/usage on my motorcycle? Size and weight are the biggest
> concerns. Thanks in advance!
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Photos
> Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,
> holidays, whatever.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Brown wrote:
> I use spa hose for routing electrical cables... I don't know of any
> adapter to run the hose through sheet metal.
Tim Humphrey wrote:
> If you really need one... Go to your local pool/spa dealer and buy the
> adapter that connects the spa hose to the pool.
Now wait a minute... spa hose may be expedient; easy to get, or maybe you
already have a roll of it laying about. But it isn't the right stuff for the
job. It has no electrical insulation and no flamability ratings.
If you're running electrical wires in a pipe, please use pipe (electrical
conduit) that is *meant* to carry wiring. It is specifically designed and
tested for electrical insulation safety and fire resistance. Besides, they
have all the needed adapters, unions, elbows, tees, and bulkhead connectors.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might try:
39121 Levi St. Newark California 510-673-7602 www.airlabcorp.com
This is from the front page of the site you showed.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: battery monitor suggestions
> If you're interested in monitoring the voltage of each battery in the
> string, in real time while driving, I really like Edward Ang's battery
> monitoring system:
>
> http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/
>
> The warning light sequence may seem a bit opaque at first, but take a look
> at the videos on the site (http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/video/) .. when you
> add the audible beeps, the sequences start to make sense. I'm sure you'd
be
> able to "automatically" interpret the meaning of the beeps after a very
> short time.
>
> The only problem is that there is no information on the site on how to
> actually get these, in spite of them having already been publically
> unveiled. No ordering information, no links to distributors, no prices, no
> contact info. Does anyone know any more about this system? Did anyone see
> it at the SVEAA Standord rally in September?
>
> Ed, you out there? :o)
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> On January 4, 5:25 am paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What do you guys think i should buy for monitoring the battery
> > pack/usage on my motorcycle? Size and weight are the biggest
> > concerns. Thanks in advance!
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Photos
> > Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,
> > holidays, whatever.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
C'mon Chris, at least look around a little before posting like this.
The very first hit on Google for "DC motor interpole" is this
http://www.reliance.com/mtr/mtrthrmn.htm
A veritable mini-textbook on motor theory.
Interpoles involve no electronics. They were around before anyone had
the slightest thought as to what "electronics" would be. They are
superior to moveable brushes (mostly obsolete by the 1920s) in every
regard. An interpole motor requires no adjustment over its entire
load envelope.
John
On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:22:37 -0600, Christopher Robison
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Thanks for this reply, Lee .. you've touched on something I've been
>curious about for a while.
>
>> Along come EVers, who have the audacity to think that one motor should
>> be able to run on a range of voltages, at a range of speeds and loads.
>>
>> We could go back to adjustable brush rigging; but I think it would be
>> better yet to put the interpoles back in.
>
>What is the benefit of interpoles, vs. variable brush timing? How does
>this compensate for the shifting of the field's neutral plane at high
>speed, in a way that is better than simply moving the brushes? Is it
>because the effect of the interpoles is relatively instantaneous, where
>the brushes will lag when being moved?
>
>Clearly, the use of interpoles implies a solid-state solution, and one
>which requires no advanced control system -- there's a lot of benefit
>there. However, would such windings take up space otherwise used by
>windings which are continuously contributing to output torque? (So,
>would they sacrifice power to gain efficiency?)
>
>Or would the additional windings go in previously empty space, and add
>significant weight to the motor? Would they impair cooling?
>
>If there are no benefits to recommend moveable brushes as superior to
>interpoles, I'll be happily corrected on the point, and highly confused
>as to why something so simple still isn't making its way into any EV
>motor produced today, especially from those who claim to specialize in
>the market. A couple extra turns of wire can't be that expensive for the
>benefit.
>
> --chris
>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all, can anyone help me with a Ford Aspire conversion? Are there pre-made
components out there I could purchase?
Thanks for any leads
Don
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI I have a 1987 subaru justy for a doner car if anyone is interested. it
runs Ok but failed smog. Small lightweight car.
Don
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:21:50 +0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>I am considering doing some experiments using a 24V truck alternator as a three
>phase motor with a view to powering a small EV. Having just ordered a small
>(800W) three phase inverter to play with I am wondering if any one on the list
>has had experience using alternators as motors and/or has suggestions for other
>motor possibilities.
Many moons ago I designed a "stepper motor drive" (what we called 'em
back then) to drive an alternator as a motor. My application was to
crank a welder engine that didn't have a starter motor.
It worked after a fashion. It started the engine and then served as
the system's generator but it was very inefficient. Two reasons. One,
the field consumes significant power. I'd address that problem with a
PM field conversion. There is someone on the net selling alternators
with PM fields for wind and micro-hydro power applications.
The larger problem is that the stator in an alternator is designed to
saturate. This is part of the regulation scheme. This greatly limits
the amount of power that can be produced.
The next problem is that the air gap is very much larger than
desirable. Probably a combination of intentional design to limit out
put and manufacturing tolerances. If you get a reman alternator where
some gorilla took a sanding drum to the stator face, the gap is even
larger.
The stator laminations are rather thick for the frequencies involved.
That means fairly high eddy current losses.
Like you, I'm enticed by the idea of a fairly high power AC motor only
costing a couple hundred bux. I even revisit the idea every so often.
Unfortunately alternators, at least conventional car alternators, have
little more than the case and bearings that would be useful as a
motor.
I'm actually thinking about it again now. Two possibilities. One
possibility is the new generation of small, high RPM alternators from
the japanese companies. I have an example of the last generation
small alternator here in the shop. The design is better than the
conventional alternator by a mile. The other possibility is a high
power truck alternator, something in the 250-400 amp range. These are
generally of much better design than conventional alternators. I have
a 250 amp Leese Neville alternator here on the bench. I haven't
looked at it yet for motor potential but I'm going to.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
We realize after driving electric's for more than 5
years that what you really need is not the voltage
readings of each battery. A human being simply cannot
scan the voltages of each battery fast enough while
driving. The EWS idea was conceived.
It was supposed to be shown during the SVEAA Rally
last September. But, a series of events prevented
this from happening. First, the demo vehicle had an
accident 2 days before the rally. The system was
moved onto a Sparrow in a hurry, but did not quite
make the time. We decided to show just a single unit
in the rally. Then, I had to host family members that
evacuated from hurrican Rita. In addition, I was
supposed to give the demo, but I was sick.
Anyhow, we decided to skip the demo the night before
the rally.
Although there is much interest in the EWS, it wasnt
enough to bring it to the market. It is a very good
product which every AGM EV should have. You will be
surprised that the material cost of each battery unit
is only about $10. If any of you are interested in
helping to get the system on the market, talk to me.
We might be able to work out some plans.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You might try:
> 39121 Levi St. Newark California 510-673-7602
> www.airlabcorp.com
>
> This is from the front page of the site you showed.
>
>
>
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 9:07 AM
> Subject: Re: battery monitor suggestions
>
>
> > If you're interested in monitoring the voltage of
> each battery in the
> > string, in real time while driving, I really like
> Edward Ang's battery
> > monitoring system:
> >
> > http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/
> >
> > The warning light sequence may seem a bit opaque
> at first, but take a look
> > at the videos on the site
> (http://airlabcorp.com/EWS/video/) .. when you
> > add the audible beeps, the sequences start to make
> sense. I'm sure you'd
> be
> > able to "automatically" interpret the meaning of
> the beeps after a very
> > short time.
> >
> > The only problem is that there is no information
> on the site on how to
> > actually get these, in spite of them having
> already been publically
> > unveiled. No ordering information, no links to
> distributors, no prices, no
> > contact info. Does anyone know any more about
> this system? Did anyone see
> > it at the SVEAA Standord rally in September?
> >
> > Ed, you out there? :o)
> >
> > --chris
> >
> >
> >
> > On January 4, 5:25 am paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > What do you guys think i should buy for
> monitoring the battery
> > > pack/usage on my motorcycle? Size and weight
> are the biggest
> > > concerns. Thanks in advance!
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Yahoo! Photos
> > > Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add
> photos, events,
> > > holidays, whatever.
> > >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I suppose the question here is does the car actually have to be totally done?
If it is Titled in your state as an electric vehicle and in your posession
during 2005, why would you not be eligible for a one time deduction for your
conversion costs? It seems to me that since all EV's are on-going projects
more or less, who says it has to be running or driven a specific time or
mileage to qualify.
I guess my question is what limiting factors if any are imposed on the
deduction?
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For starters, be glad you're getting any credit. It was supposed to have been
> phased out 2 years ago, but the nasty Bush administration extended it.
>
> Then, write your congress-person's and request that it again be extended in
> full effect, indefinately.
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
> Original Message -----------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:50 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Tax Credit for Conversion
>
> I was just reviewing the federal tax form and found out that they are
> reducing the tax credit for conversions. Conversions placed into service in
> 2005 (ending today) get a 10% credit. Starting tomorrow, the credit is only
> 2.5%.
> That sure doesn't make me very happy. Also, I see that credits offered by
> my home state (Georgia) are not what they used to be. They are offering a
> 10% credit as well, but it used to be $2500 a few years ago. I seem to
> remember people buying NEVs (basically golf carts) and getting them free
> after the tax credit.
>
> Does anyone know the plans for these credits after 2006? It seems to me
> (from the federal form at least) that it may just go away after 2006. I
> think we should all write congress and try to get this thing reversed and
> back to 10%.
> It may not seem like much, but on $6000 worth of conversion parts, I could
> have got a credit of $1200. If I can finish within a year, I can only get
> $750.
> Thats a pretty big deal to me. I was counting on the $1200.
>
> Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am considering doing some experiments using a 24V truck alternator as a
> three phase motor with a view to powering a small EV. Having just ordered a
> small (800W) three phase inverter to play with I am wondering if any one on
> the list has had experience using alternators as motors and/or has
> suggestions for other motor possibilities.
I did this with a GM 60amp alternator. My "inverter" was a 4-channel stereo
amplifier, with its output transistors replaced by bigger ones on an external
fan-colled heatsink. The stock power supply was used, but with four 12v
batteries (60v) across it to supply lots more peak power.
Having a linear amplifier meant lots of heat and low efficiency in the
inverter. But it also meant I could drive it with any voltage and waveform I
liked for experimentation (sine, square, PWM, etc.)
I found that the alternator makes a low-torque, high-rpm motor, low efficiency
motor. Even at 100 amps, torque was very low (you could easily hold it with
your hand). But it had no trouble winding up to 12,000 rpm and beyond.
Efficiency of the alternator was poor. Best-case efficiency never topped 70%,
and 50-60% was more typical across the power band.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of our Portland EV enthusiasts (Ives Meador) built a 3-phase motor
controller and has driven modified alternators with it. He built a twin
modified-alternator-driven go-cart with regen which went like a
bat-outta-hell...I wouldn't drive it---throttle pot was attached to the
steering wheel operated by the left thumb, regen/brake pot also on the
steering wheel operated by the right thumb---freaked me out. He also
demonstrated his motor contoller at one of our meetings driving an
alternator "motor", then changed it to drive a 10HP 3ph motor and driving
that. It was pretty cool.
As for efficiency---yeah, alternators suck unless you're at high RPMs. Even
those PM alternators bite----they actually may be worse. We went thru 4
alternators running at approx. 2200 RPM trying to get enough power out to
charge batteries on a steamboat. Even the lowRPM rated ones could only
deliver 20amps max. into the batteries. Then my buddy plunked $300 down for
one of the PM alternators (an SC12) and it also delivered a max of about
20amps at that RPM. But the PM alternator was hotter than hell! This for
an alternator "rated" for a 112v charging application. I calculated that
drop to 50% efficiency at only 26amps---unacceptable for generating
electricity OR for use as a motor. Now, if the SC12 were instead delivering
to a 48v supply---then it probably would shine. But the bozo at Thermodyne
Systems would neither admit this misapplication and misrepresentation nor
accept return of this, now "used" product for our money back.
In the end, the best thing we found for the buck is a surplus Leeson DC PM
motor.
With that and some added steam pressure, we've hit 34amps and the thing runs
cool.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If making it easy for a human to see the set of battery voltages is the
issue, I like the simple,low cost LED dashboard array approach mentioned
sometime ago by someone (Lee Hart?).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, January 4, 2006 11:51 am, Neon John said:
> C'mon Chris, at least look around a little before posting like this.
> The very first hit on Google for "DC motor interpole" is this
>
> http://www.reliance.com/mtr/mtrthrmn.htm
C'mon John, don't be so quick to assume I haven't read this very page, a
number of times. It provides good information, but [perhaps as filtered
through my ignorant perspective] doesn't directly answer the questions I
asked.
> A veritable mini-textbook on motor theory.
>
> Interpoles involve no electronics. They were around before anyone had
> the slightest thought as to what "electronics" would be. They are
> superior to moveable brushes (mostly obsolete by the 1920s) in every
> regard. An interpole motor requires no adjustment over its entire
> load envelope.
That they are "superior in every regard" may be an accurate statement but
it is not directly supported in the document you linked to, nor any I
happened to find. Again this does not mean it's not true, nor that I am
not prepared to believe it, but I'd like to see a direct comparison
between the two methods (and any of the others, comp. windings, etc). This
is what I was asking for.
Beyond that, you're repeating things I already said. I know they are
automatic and require no control system (electronic or otherwise). I know
they require no adjustment. But my question is whether there are
disadvantages that might be brought about in power, weight or versatility
of the resulting motor, issues of applicability to EV duty -- such issues
might not be volunteered on a webpage from Reliant, which builds mostly
industrial drives with somewhat less variable operating conditions.
--chris
>
> John
>
> On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:22:37 -0600, Christopher Robison
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Thanks for this reply, Lee .. you've touched on something I've been
>>curious about for a while.
>>
>>> Along come EVers, who have the audacity to think that one motor should
>>> be able to run on a range of voltages, at a range of speeds and loads.
>>>
>>> We could go back to adjustable brush rigging; but I think it would be
>>> better yet to put the interpoles back in.
>>
>>What is the benefit of interpoles, vs. variable brush timing? How does
>>this compensate for the shifting of the field's neutral plane at high
>>speed, in a way that is better than simply moving the brushes? Is it
>>because the effect of the interpoles is relatively instantaneous, where
>>the brushes will lag when being moved?
>>
>>Clearly, the use of interpoles implies a solid-state solution, and one
>>which requires no advanced control system -- there's a lot of benefit
>>there. However, would such windings take up space otherwise used by
>>windings which are continuously contributing to output torque? (So,
>>would they sacrifice power to gain efficiency?)
>>
>>Or would the additional windings go in previously empty space, and add
>>significant weight to the motor? Would they impair cooling?
>>
>>If there are no benefits to recommend moveable brushes as superior to
>>interpoles, I'll be happily corrected on the point, and highly confused
>>as to why something so simple still isn't making its way into any EV
>>motor produced today, especially from those who claim to specialize in
>>the market. A couple extra turns of wire can't be that expensive for the
>>benefit.
>>
>> --chris
>>
>>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
> Emerson
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
If making it easy for a human to see the set of battery voltages is the
issue, I like the simple,low cost LED dashboard array approach mentioned
sometime ago by someone (Lee Hart?).
I still say a standard "character mode" LCD/VFD/PLED display is one of
the most practical setups for this sorta thing:
http://www.evforge.net/photogallery.php?photo=14
You could use something like the lower screen, but one voltage bargraph
per battery in realtime... I like to spot trends, and bargraphs seem to
be an instinctive way for us humans to recognize them. Hit the gas, and
the bar that dips lower then everyone else on a regular basis is likely
a troublemaker. ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The thing I like about Ang's system is that it *remembers* if the battery
has gone below one or both of two customizeable "danger thresholds" and
holds the information until the next time you charge. So, if you see the
problem you can react to it immediately, but if you don't then at least
you can be aware of it next time you charge. It doesn't even require that
you were the one driving; it could have been someone else. "Dear, I think
I heard a battery beeping, don't remember which one..."
As I recall, John Lussmyer built a similar warning system, though its
feedback pattern wasn't as elaborate and it didn't incorporate the charge
regulation function. (I wish I could remember where I saw that...)
--chris
On Wed, January 4, 2006 1:30 pm, Myles Twete said:
> If making it easy for a human to see the set of battery voltages is the
> issue, I like the simple,low cost LED dashboard array approach mentioned
> sometime ago by someone (Lee Hart?).
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Addendum to my earlier message shown below:
I just spoke with the folks at Dial-a-Clutch and the word is that their LuK
Pro Gold will handle 30% more torque than stock. Plus it will maintain this
clamping power for a longer time due to their design. Clutch pedal feel is
near the same as stock.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Rau
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: clutch for Mitsubishi pu with 11" net gain motor
The Dial-a-Clutch folks have some good info on their site to help with
choosing the right setup. There are factors to consider such as pedal force
required and holding force as disc wears/etc. that should be considered.
HYPERLINK
"http://www.dialaclutch.com/progoldstorecont.htm"http://www.dialaclutch.com/
progoldstorecont.htm
I plan on using one of their LuK Pro Gold systems on my 240V,
WarP/Hi-Torque Electric motor, 1000amp Honda Civic. Since the torque output
of my conversion has grown substantially since first deciding on this
clutch, it would be wise for me to review my choice, since the LuK Pro Gold
is more of hi quality HD unit rather than a racing clutch. Input from the
list is welcome.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: clutch for Mitsubishi pu with 11" net gain motor
The cheapest option is to get a grabbier clutch disk (might lead to
chatter on takeoff if you slip the clutch). Kennedy Engineering
Products makes lightweight pressure plates with more clamping force
-- this is good for smooth takeoffs with the stock disk (if you slip
the clutch). Some of the centerforce clutches increase clamping force
with RPM, great for a gas motor but not what you really want for an
electric.
> >From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:30:37 -0500
> >
> >I'm getting my 83 Mitsubishi ready for the BBB drag's and am
> finding the
> >weak links , one by one . The motor , a old 9 " adc has me re
> learning some
> >stuff I learned a while ago. This was my 5th conversion and has
> been
> >through 2
> >owners . It sat around a year , When setting it up with the new
> parts I spun
> >the motor on a 12v battery and though at the time it wasn't
> spinning very
> >fast for 12v , . I put a 1k zilla and 22 orbitals in and it didn't
> take much
> >go peddle before I started hearing a shhhhh and a drop in power ,
> . Well I
> >decided to pull one brush and found it stuck in the brush holder ,
> I've seen
> >worse where pulling with pliers could hardly get them out but
> these weren't
> >moving easy . Took them out one by one and with just a little
> rubbing they
> >started sliding fine again . Trunk ran much better but some of the
> brushes
> >where chipped , one 1/4 gone . So I'm going easy with it for now ,
> and
> >ordered a net gain 11 as I can see this 9 motor and a 2k ( which I
> hope to
> >have before BBB day ) would not make it . I'll get the 9 out and
> use him for
> >another low power project. What I'm finding out as the 9 gets
> broken it is
> >that now the clutch is slipping at about 400 amps when in 3ed
> gear . What
> >would people recommend of a clutch , and where to get it . I'm not
> looking
> >for the best , just a lot better :-) .
> >I weighted it and right now its 3250 lbs .
> >
> >The next week link is the rear , its not a posi rear , This I
> don't think I
> >can do anything about before the 21st.
__________________________________
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
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> I still say a standard "character mode" LCD/VFD/PLED display
> is one of
> the most practical setups for this sorta thing:
>
> http://www.evforge.net/photogallery.php?photo=14
We're saying the same thing...roughly.
I'm not advocating a 3-LED indicator per battery, but an array of LEDs for
each battery, aligned next to similar arrays for every other
battery...someone described this in the past somewhere. Sure, no voltage
reading per-se, but the visual rendition of the "dip" as you say, of a
battery under load would be apparent.
The solution you describe looks good, though it looks dinky.
The LED array can be much more visually obvious I should think.
Plus, the judicious use of Green, Yellow and Red LEDs can offer even better
user feedback than a monochrome LCD array.
I once built 7-axis motion control systems which used individual outer loop
position controllers for each axis. For visual feedback of tracking error,
we used an array of LEDs as described, RED at the extremes, yellow in
between and green in the middle. This works well, though there are
advantages to the LCD/uC approach.
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Myles Twete wrote:
We're saying the same thing...roughly.
I'm not advocating a 3-LED indicator per battery, but an array of LEDs for
each battery, aligned next to similar arrays for every other
battery...someone described this in the past somewhere. Sure, no voltage
reading per-se, but the visual rendition of the "dip" as you say, of a
battery under load would be apparent.
The solution you describe looks good, though it looks dinky.
That picture is with a 16x2 VFD, a 20x4 would be much easier on the
eyes. I am putting one together for the Roadster, so dinky is good in
that application. But then a stack of standard LED bargraph modules is
about the same size, just much brighter.
The LED array can be much more visually obvious I should think.
Plus, the judicious use of Green, Yellow and Red LEDs can offer even better
user feedback than a monochrome LCD array.
Yes, color is definitely better for the whole peripheral vision
situation... do they make tri-state LED bar graph modules? That would be
the easiest. You could run a simple IC LED bargraph driver circuit on
each one if you just wanted voltages.
I once built 7-axis motion control systems which used individual outer loop
position controllers for each axis. For visual feedback of tracking error,
we used an array of LEDs as described, RED at the extremes, yellow in
between and green in the middle. This works well, though there are
advantages to the LCD/uC approach.
Cost can be one benefit of character displays (depending on how many
bargraphs you need), but mostly it's the ability to use one display for
many different things.
--
Stefan T. Peters
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I am darn sure Dennis does not run interpoles.
I am sure the Monster Garage 11.7 inch GEs were interpoles and I am sure
the 11.7 GE that Damon ran in his Rexy-7 was also interpoled.
The old series wound REgen with interpoles is the only way to make Regen
work without brush movments.
My current Kostov power Fiero Drive train has the big 11 Kosty with
interpoles... I have a nice test platform...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: Interpoles was Reversing a Siamese motor
At 10:19 PM -0800 1/3/06, Jim Husted wrote:
......
>An added benefit to interpoles are it makes for
>friendly regen, if I understand it correctly.
>I've been thinking about the interpoled motors
>and whether they are subject to the 170 armature
>volts that the 4 pole motor are limited to. Hey
>Otmar, what's your thought on that? Ever
>monster test any interpolled motors?
Hey Jim,
I have never run a interpoled motor in my cars.
>From what Plasma Boy reports, his interpoled
Kostov took well over 200V without flashing over.
I believe Dennis Berube is also running high
voltages on his GE's which I think have
interpoles in addition to the motorized brush
advance. (but I could be wrong on the interpoles).
Regen with interpoles is a big unknown in my
mind. I've determined that negative brush advance
is not enough to avoid serious arcing in regen on
ADC motors. (despite what people would like to
belive), and we've run a SepEx Zilla on a SepEx
9" ADC with not much benefit. The one test that I
would still like to do is run a interpoled motor
with regen at 144V+.
Now that I'm relatively close to you here in
Oregon I can see that we'll need to be running
some experiments!
Somewhere here I have camera and equipment for
watching the commutation while driving, and the
regen adaptor for the Zilla is hanging on the
wall... We're just needing a interpoled car to
try it on. Something with a clutch, shifting
gears and 144 to 192V would probably be ideal to
start.
Let me know if you find a test mule. :)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting applications for employment. No, I
have not yet written the job description! It's
doing everything except engineering. Will train
the right person.
No sales tax! :)
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Chris,
I am glad that some one actually gets the idea. Thank
you.
My wife was the daily driver of the demo vehicle.
Since she is not an EE, so I got some very useful
inputs from her as a "normal" driver. She often told
me that the pack voltage seemed low, but she couldn't
tell what was wrong until it was too late.
After we installed the EWS, she was so happy with the
system because she knew exactly when to back off the
accelerator (she likes the accelerate fast and likes
the smooth acceleration of an EV). And, I knew
exactly which battery was the bad apple by just
looking at the dash display. And, I knew it way
before any damage was done. And, the maximum range is
no longer an estimate.
Sure we all like to see detailed information about
each battery. But, many would rather have a simple
"check battery light". The EWS is a trade-off of
simple user interface, reliability, material cost and
development cost.
Ed Ang
AIR Lab Corp.
--- Chris Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The thing I like about Ang's system is that it
> *remembers* if the battery
> has gone below one or both of two customizeable
> "danger thresholds" and
> holds the information until the next time you
> charge. So, if you see the
> problem you can react to it immediately, but if you
> don't then at least
> you can be aware of it next time you charge. It
> doesn't even require that
> you were the one driving; it could have been someone
> else. "Dear, I think
> I heard a battery beeping, don't remember which
> one..."
>
> As I recall, John Lussmyer built a similar warning
> system, though its
> feedback pattern wasn't as elaborate and it didn't
> incorporate the charge
> regulation function. (I wish I could remember where
> I saw that...)
>
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> On Wed, January 4, 2006 1:30 pm, Myles Twete said:
> > If making it easy for a human to see the set of
> battery voltages is the
> > issue, I like the simple,low cost LED dashboard
> array approach mentioned
> > sometime ago by someone (Lee Hart?).
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
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Graphics is no problem either really. Surplus displays can be quite
cheap and I can write up code easy.
The thing I don't approve of is the specs for the optocouplers used to
communicate the voltage do not specify enough accuracy in themselves for
it to provide a useful reading. This can be compensated for through
initial calibration but the spec makes no promises regarding thermal and
aging drift so its long term accuracy is unpredictable. I can't say if
it would be inaccurate in the long term or not, but then even positive
experiences with one lot of components used under one set of conditions
does not guarantee all devices would have similar results either.
One device being off calibration by 10% means a reading of 11.34v on a
12.6v battery which would be way too inaccurate, and just as a guess a
+/-10% change in gain does not seem at all unrealistic. The "relative
reading" strategy does not compensate for this issue unless they all age
from their calibration in a similar way. It would just mean an absolute
voltage is not displayed but that device's reading will falsely show it
to be 1.26v low which would make a fine battery appear a lot like a bad one.
A VCO or uC ADC could generate an accurate digital reading, though only
at additional cost. Actually a relay could also be used to calibrate
the existing analog opto to a common reference voltage at regular
intervals too. There are some tiny DIP ones which aren't all that
expensive, but wiring could get a bit complicated if separate sensor
modules were used for each battery. Putting them all on one board and
running all the battery wires into it would be the best idea if
calibration were to be used.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
I still say a standard "character mode" LCD/VFD/PLED display is one of
the most practical setups for this sorta thing:
http://www.evforge.net/photogallery.php?photo=14
You could use something like the lower screen, but one voltage
bargraph per battery in realtime... I like to spot trends, and
bargraphs seem to be an instinctive way for us humans to recognize
them. Hit the gas, and the bar that dips lower then everyone else on a
regular basis is likely a troublemaker. ;)
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I spoke to the designated individual in Trenton, NJ
about Electic Vehicles today.
He told me that the vehicle needs to be towed or
flatbedded into one of 3 testing facilities
(eg, Morristown 101 Ridgedale Avenue 973-631-6577)
It would need to be registered as a "Specially Constructed"
or "Reconstructed" vehicle. (The latter sounds better to
me in terms of resale value :-)
They would be looking at things like:
Braking
Accelleration
Battery tie down
Weight Distribution
Brake Swept area (?) i.e., braking:weight ratio
They will be checking that it is
*designed well
*constructed well
*performs well
Naturally, they will be checking Curb weight and GVWR
both for chassis and tires.
(I thought I would share this....and make a note to myself :-)
He gave me a sincere Good luck at the end of our talk...nice.
I'd like to know who is the professor that's building
from scratch in NJ?
Seth in Passaic
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