EV Digest 5070
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) QUERY EV
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) TEST for turn off digest mode
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Budget EV - contactor controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Breaking in ADC Motor, Comm Stones and stuff
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Weatherizing a Zilla1K, PFC20 and WarP 9
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Seating Brushes was Breaking in ADC Motor
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) e meter no no's
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: E-meter no-no's
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Neg supply for E-meter
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Seating Brushes was Breaking in ADC Motor
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Otmars new home
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) transporting the glider
by Seth Rothenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: transporting the glider
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Weatherizing a Zilla1K, PFC20 and WarP 9
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Weatherizing a Zilla1K, PFC20 and WarP 9
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
QUERY EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry Dycus wrote:
>> Let's be practical and stop pricing EV'ers out of the market because
>> some of us are hung up on EC's.
Stefan Peters wrote:
> Hear, hear!
>
> Though hopefully you can get some of the automation benefits of a
> monolithic EC at the price of a DIY 5 speed contactor controller someday ;)
I look at the forklift and golfcart controllers as examples of what is
practical today. I know they strike some people as crude, low performance, and
expensive. But, their manufacturers stay in business. There are plenty of
examples of people who tried other combinations of price and performance, and
failed! So, the manufacturers we have apparently offer "enough" performance so
they have "enough" customers, and the price is "enough" so they can make
"enough" money to survive.
If they priced them lower, they might sell more but make less money; thus
they'd go broke. If they priced them higher, they make more per sale but sell a
lot less; thus they go broke.They've apparently worked out what seems to be the
"best" price for their products.
I'm sure they could spend more on R&D to develop better performing and higher
tech products. But, my guess is that they've found their customers don't care
about performance and high tech -- they'd rather keep it cheap. So, they
minimize R&D expenses and product improvements to keep cost down. They have a
nice, stable market situation.
But, sometime technology can be disruptive. A new part or circuit comes out
that allows a totally different approach. The "old established" manufacturers
are too stuck in their ways to change, so it is left to outsiders to use the
new technology. It's called a paradigm shift. Slide rule manufacturers didn't
introduce electronic calculators. Swiss watch makers didn't build digital
watches.
If you build a PWM controller with dozens of little MOSFETs in parallel, and
boards with hundreds of parts, you can't beat the Curtis, Sevcon, and Axe
controllers. These guys are masters of this art.
But if you build a PWM with one big IGBT module, and a little board with a
switching regulator chip, THEN you have a chance! This is a "disruptive
technology" way to do it. Far higher parts cost, but far lower design and labor
costs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone set my mail setting to digest yesterday.
This is a test to see if it got changed back.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Glenn Meader
>Where do you get, or how do you make a 3-5 speed contactor controller?
>Any pointers to info on this?
People normally build their own contactor controllers, since it is nothing but
contactors and wire. We've published descriptions of them many times; they
should be findable in the EV list archives.
I have circuits for a number of them. If you have trouble finding information
elsewhere, send me a stamped self-addressed envelope and I can send you some.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:33 PM 7/01/06 -0500, Bob Rice wrote:
Well you can do this for DAYS! Howbout a "Comm Stone" as we used to call
them on the RR? You used this soft stone like bar to grind onto the comm, it
was very abrasive, but would wear down the brushes quickly Jim Husted would
be able to tell ya more about their use, I'm sure?
Hey, Jim, asked you to!
But I havent seen or heard
of EV guys using them nowadaze, like WHERE would ya get one today?
Hey, Jim, told you it'd sell you some comm stones when you post a 'how-to'
of using them!
I know, too busy using 'em and sorting out freight :^) to be writing "how to's"
(Jim had a bit of hassle arranging some freight USA->Australia for me).
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:03 AM -0900 1/2/06, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
On rare occasion we get -29*C (-20*F) here in Anchorage. Sounds like I may
be looking to heat the thing, or at least insulate it some for winter
driving. It will live in a heated garage at night and park in a building
parking garage for ~10 hours during the work day. I suspect that just
operating it moderately would heat it up inside an enclosure to well above
the cap specs.
Mike,
I agree that running the Zilla some will raise the temperature to
within the spec of the capacitors, but if it's too cold it would be
the first few seconds that would worry me. A under-performing cap can
blow the controller pretty quickly. I'll cover the warranty if you
don't mind being the cold weather test case! If something doesn't
work, I'll figure out how to make it better, or maybe a heater will
be required in the end.
Its just my guess that I'd see some efficiency gain
operating it in the cold, maybe some on the motor too.
The controller will likely lose a little bit of efficiency in the
cold, but the motor will certainly get better.
The only hit I'll
take is loss of battery capacity plus having to run a heater (which is no
minor thing). My thinking about the base plate cooling would be to mount it
in a Nema 3X enclosure and hang a large power supply size heat sink that has
a sealed penetration directly to the base plate. If I could get enough
cooling from that to operate a moderate daily commuter in +20*C (+70*F) I
might not need water cooling.
I advise against that. Your vehicle is about triple the weight of
what I call a "light" conversion and I think the controller would get
too hot on warmer days.
The conversion is a Mitsibishi MightyMax P/U. 2350 lbs curb weight right
now on my driveway. I'm figuring 3350 lbs once converted.
That sounds like a good vehicle. Please keep us informed on how it works out!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
I'll be posting a how to use comm. stone (with pics) as soon as I
can. I've noticed that my free site is not only full but the ads that
started to appear were a joke. Chris Robinson is going to be helping
me setup a more proper site to help me share pics and info. So thanks
Chris and sorry to all those who have had to put up with the ad thing.
Perhaps Jim needs a piece of the EVForge site, to post motor info for
everyone's enjoyment?
Stefan? How would that work?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; "jon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "STEVE CLUNN"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: New motors and brush seating
10
I just though of a new one but don't know if it would hurt the e meter .
If
you where running the B+ voltage sense wire to the first battery (12v up
from the shunt) , not a good practice ,but sometimes done instead of a
pre
scalar , and that battery in a:" to deep a discharge " gets reversed ,
your
b+ sense could be below the ground ( maybe quite a bit), of course this
would be worse if you had the e meter being powered by the same battery .
For the poor person who powers their e meter for the first batteries in
the
pack , this light but constantan drain wears the first guy down , then
there's the drive to the very end , which the first guy is not in shape
for
, and hits 0v while the others are just starting to choke. By the time
the
car inches home the meter is cooked? .
11 another I don't see but your using a pre scalar ( which you need to
hook
the grounds up on first ) so you'll be ok , . I did this once , with 6v
batteries and the v sense wire hooked to the first two ( so as to see
12v )
if you un hook or have the cable between the two batteries come off your
e
meter is toast. All the light loads on the + and - of the traction pack
act
like a wire hooking the use to be traction pack negative post ( the one
with
the shunt on it ) to the most positive post of the traction pack (by way
of
any load hooked across traction pack.) , the wire that is hooked to the v
sense + and possible the supply + if no dc to dc is being used . If you
put
a meter where the cable was un hooked you'd see pack voltage with B+ at
the
shunt.=8-o and that was the last thing your e meter saw .
I've noticed that they don't seem to put a lot of smoke in the e meters ,
maybe because it comes out so easy and they don't want to waste it .
In a far of galaxies two semi conductors are talking " you let all the
blood
out , you know they won't work after you do that" " ya I got the drain and
source mixed up again , what a smelly mess "
Steve clunn .
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: E-meter no-no's
A good list Don , I'll add a few things.
6 Test your dc to dc , power it up and with a cheep o meter ( one you
don't mind throwing out ) measure the current from one of the inputs to
the out puts . There should be NONE . not a ma or a ua ( I test all four
ays - to - - to + + to - and + to + ) of course you don't want to test
across both input or out puts you will see current there :-) .
.7 hook up all the grounds first and when un hooking take off the sense +
first then power + . don't let these wires flop around when you have
them off , tape the ends , any leakage from traction pack to frame and a
sense or power wire hits the frame , you have a dead meter.
8 I have been putting a 6 pin plug on all my e meters , and unplug the
meter before doing any thing like putting new batteries in or taking off
any battery cable.
9 I have yet to see any fuse save an e meter . I keep letting them try ,
I
have seen the fuses get a little corroded and meter starts to read wrong
.
I now use the pig tail fuses a .25 amp for the sense and .5 for the
power.
I solder them in and put heat shrink tubing over them .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: E-meter no-no's
I am sure you will get a few replies to this.
1) make sure pack and supply polarity are correct.
2) make sure that the shunt is connected to the proper side of the pack
as
indicated in the manual
3) power it ONLY from a regulated isolated source, such as a small DC-DC
4) DO NOT power it my "tapping" into your pack as suggested by the
manual
(this has blown at least a couple of EMeters)
5) there is also a sequence to hooking up the lines - I just have been
lucky
(in that respect).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Quoting damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
I recently purchased an E-meter from grassrootsev.com I would like to
start
playing with. It is for my motorcycle which reaches up to about 75
volts
during charge, so I also purchased the 100v prescaler. I know there
are
some definite no-no's when hooking up and removing e-meters to keep
from
frying them. I also seem to remeber mention of some incorrect wiring
diagrams in the manuals.
What are the "set in stone rules" to follow to avoid frying a new
e-meter
and what are some of the common ways of accidently breaking these
rules?
thanks
damon
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
10
I just though of a new one but don't know if it would hurt the e meter . If
you where running the B+ voltage sense wire to the first battery (12v up
from the shunt) , not a good practice ,but sometimes done instead of a pre
scalar , and that battery in a:" to deep a discharge " gets reversed , your
b+ sense could be below the ground ( maybe quite a bit), of course this
would be worse if you had the e meter being powered by the same battery .
For the poor person who powers their e meter for the first batteries in the
pack , this light but constantan drain wears the first guy down , then
there's the drive to the very end , which the first guy is not in shape for
, and hits 0v while the others are just starting to choke. By the time the
car inches home the meter is cooked? .
11 another I don't see but your using a pre scalar ( which you need to hook
the grounds up on first ) so you'll be ok , . I did this once , with 6v
batteries and the v sense wire hooked to the first two ( so as to see 12v )
if you un hook or have the cable between the two batteries come off your e
meter is toast. All the light loads on the + and - of the traction pack act
like a wire hooking the use to be traction pack negative post ( the one with
the shunt on it ) to the most positive post of the traction pack (by way of
any load hooked across traction pack.) , the wire that is hooked to the v
sense + and possible the supply + if no dc to dc is being used . If you put
a meter where the cable was un hooked you'd see pack voltage with B+ at the
shunt.=8-o and that was the last thing your e meter saw .
I've noticed that they don't seem to put a lot of smoke in the e meters ,
maybe because it comes out so easy and they don't want to waste it .
In a far of galaxies two semi conductors are talking " you let all the blood
out , you know they won't work after you do that" " ya I got the drain and
source mixed up again , what a smelly mess "
Steve clunn .
----- Original Message -----
From: "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: E-meter no-no's
A good list Don , I'll add a few things.
6 Test your dc to dc , power it up and with a cheep o meter ( one you
don't mind throwing out ) measure the current from one of the inputs to
the out puts . There should be NONE . not a ma or a ua ( I test all four
ays - to - - to + + to - and + to + ) of course you don't want to test
across both input or out puts you will see current there :-) .
.7 hook up all the grounds first and when un hooking take off the sense +
first then power + . don't let these wires flop around when you have
them off , tape the ends , any leakage from traction pack to frame and a
sense or power wire hits the frame , you have a dead meter.
8 I have been putting a 6 pin plug on all my e meters , and unplug the
meter before doing any thing like putting new batteries in or taking off
any battery cable.
9 I have yet to see any fuse save an e meter . I keep letting them try , I
have seen the fuses get a little corroded and meter starts to read wrong .
I now use the pig tail fuses a .25 amp for the sense and .5 for the power.
I solder them in and put heat shrink tubing over them .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron (New Beetle EV)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: E-meter no-no's
I am sure you will get a few replies to this.
1) make sure pack and supply polarity are correct.
2) make sure that the shunt is connected to the proper side of the pack
as
indicated in the manual
3) power it ONLY from a regulated isolated source, such as a small DC-DC
4) DO NOT power it my "tapping" into your pack as suggested by the manual
(this has blown at least a couple of EMeters)
5) there is also a sequence to hooking up the lines - I just have been
lucky
(in that respect).
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
Quoting damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
I recently purchased an E-meter from grassrootsev.com I would like to
start
playing with. It is for my motorcycle which reaches up to about 75
volts
during charge, so I also purchased the 100v prescaler. I know there are
some definite no-no's when hooking up and removing e-meters to keep from
frying them. I also seem to remeber mention of some incorrect wiring
diagrams in the manuals.
What are the "set in stone rules" to follow to avoid frying a new
e-meter
and what are some of the common ways of accidently breaking these rules?
thanks
damon
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It might be 80 amps. There is a paralax with my gauge. Lawrence
Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
120V X 90A = 10,800 Watts
48V X 210A = 10,080 Watts
Is one moe efficient than the other ??
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Sorry. 120v system. That's the problem with low voltage
systems. High amp
draw at speed. However if you keep your speed down low voltage
systems can
be quite useful. The 72vdc system would also draw less amps.
LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
> "90 amps or less" With how many volts ?
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Pretty good for 48vdc but notice on the flats I'd be drawing
> 90amps or less.
>> Less volts more amps to do the same work. Ohm's Law. Lawrence
> Rhodes.....
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
>>
>>
>> > So I got the Metro going ....
>> >
>> >
>> > APPROX. - 43mph ....4th gear 210amps on the flat.....48
volts
>> >
>> > Is this in the ball park ??
>> >
>> > Only have a digital multi meter. 53.4 volts starting (is
that a
> full
>> > charge ?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We're just comparing here. I'd say on level ground at a little over 40 mph
I draw anywhere from 60 to 90 amps depending which way the wind is blowing.
This is just for comparison. I'm not saying weather it is good or bad. You
have to look at your controller specs. to determine that. Look at the
continuous rating and keep it there or less. Lawrence Rhodes...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
Your recommendation is to run 90 amps or less on a 120 volt system, so
running 150 amps or less on a 72 volt system would be equal?
Bill
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Sorry. 120v system. That's the problem with low voltage systems. High
amp draw at speed. However if you keep your speed down low voltage
systems can be quite useful. The 72vdc system would also draw less amps.
LR.........
----- Original Message ----- From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
"90 amps or less" With how many volts ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Pretty good for 48vdc but notice on the flats I'd be drawing
90amps or less.
Less volts more amps to do the same work. Ohm's Law. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message ----- From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
> So I got the Metro going ....
>
>
> APPROX. - 43mph ....4th gear 210amps on the flat.....48 volts
>
> Is this in the ball park ??
>
> Only have a digital multi meter. 53.4 volts starting (is that a
full
> charge ?)
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can use something like the Sparrow, ZS31212
http://www.coselusa.com/product.asp?Id=138
12Vdc input from the main 13.8Vdc convertor, isolated
12Vdc for the Emeter.
Rod
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: damon henry
> > I still have a couple more questions specific to
> my application. I don't
> > currently have an accesory battery, just a DC-DC
> converter. The negative
> > side of my DC-DC is connected to my frame. The
> E-meter manual states
> > that I must connect pin one to both the negative
> side of my traction pack
> > as well as the negative supply for the E-meter.
> This of course connects
> > the negative side of my traction pack to the
> negative side of my DC-DC
> > and my frame. This sounds bad...
>
> Correct! You can't power the E-meter directly from
> your 12v accessory power.
>
> >The manual offers two options...
>
> There is another option, which I prefer. Get a small
> switching power supply
> that can run directly off your traction pack, and
> which has an isolated 12v
> output to power the E-meter (and nothing else). The
> E-meter takes so little
> power that this can be a "wall wart" or old laptop
> power brick. Just make
> sure it is a SWITCHING power supply, not one with a
> 60hz transformer!
>
> Almost all low-power switchers have "universal"
> inputs and work on AC or
> DC, at anything from 90-300v. For example, I use an
> Astrodyne 15vdc
> 0.5amp switcher. It is rated for 90-264vac input,
> but actually works from
> 60-350vdc. It's a little potted "brick", and would
> even work underwater.
>
> The advantage of this approach is that the little
> switcher is more efficient
> than having to run the main DC/DC just to power a
> *second* DC/DC to get
> the 25ma or so the E-meter needs. The Astrodyne I
> use draws 4-9ma from
> my 132v propulsion pack, depending on whether the
> E-meter is asleep or in
> full sunlight. A normal "full-size" DC/DC would draw
> over 20ma even with NO
> load on its output.
> --
> Lee Hart
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1 hr rating @ 200 amps. I hadn't even considered the controller specs.
It is best for pack longevity to keep running amps below 100? Just
learning as much as I can about driving the vw and the most efficiant
operating range. There is a lot of information on the list, but it can
get confusing.
Bill
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
We're just comparing here. I'd say on level ground at a little over 40
mph I draw anywhere from 60 to 90 amps depending which way the wind is
blowing. This is just for comparison. I'm not saying weather it is good
or bad. You have to look at your controller specs. to determine that.
Look at the continuous rating and keep it there or less. Lawrence
Rhodes...........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
Your recommendation is to run 90 amps or less on a 120 volt system, so
running 150 amps or less on a 72 volt system would be equal?
Bill
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Sorry. 120v system. That's the problem with low voltage systems.
High amp draw at speed. However if you keep your speed down low
voltage systems can be quite useful. The 72vdc system would also
draw less amps. LR.........
----- Original Message ----- From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
"90 amps or less" With how many volts ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Pretty good for 48vdc but notice on the flats I'd be drawing
90amps or less.
Less volts more amps to do the same work. Ohm's Law. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message ----- From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
> So I got the Metro going ....
>
>
> APPROX. - 43mph ....4th gear 210amps on the flat.....48 volts
>
> Is this in the ball park ??
>
> Only have a digital multi meter. 53.4 volts starting (is that a
full
> charge ?)
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It doesn't seem very accurate to me to describe Peukert's this way. I
have been trying for a long time to find an authoritative description of
Peukert's. I don't dispute the equation but I have never seen a
thorough explanation that fully answers my questions. It stops short of
explaining variable loads for one.
A 100AH battery for lead-acid usually means that it will reach
1.75v/cell (10.5v) after 20 hrs @ 5A. So say Peukert's says this
battery's 50A rate will have 1 hr of capacity.
At this time, it is not accurate to say the battery has no capacity
left. As best I can tell, if the battery is left alone long enough to
stabilize the surface charge again the battery will have a Voc
equivalent to the specified Voc 50% for this battery type. It has 50 AH
left at the 5A rate. Somebody correct me if this is not the case.
So why did Peukert's draw a line here? The amphour capacity is not
affected. The observable effect here is the voltage is depressed to the
point where the generated voltage under this load is too low to use.
I'm assuming this falls back to the previous criteria for a battery
being 0% SOC, the 10.5v figure used in the test.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
I agree. In fact, Peukert says nothing at all about voltage. It only describes
the effect of current on amphour capacity. Voltage sag due to internal
resistance is a separate effect, causing an additional reduction in energy
delivered as the load is increased.
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Doug Weathers wrote:
On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
I'll be posting a how to use comm. stone (with pics) as soon as I
can. I've noticed that my free site is not only full but the ads
that started to appear were a joke. Chris Robinson is going to be
helping me setup a more proper site to help me share pics and info.
So thanks Chris and sorry to all those who have had to put up with
the ad thing.
Perhaps Jim needs a piece of the EVForge site, to post motor info for
everyone's enjoyment?
Stefan? How would that work?
Anyone who is experimenting with EV technology (conversions,
components, small manufacturers, us general crazy folk) can just ask for
one. First you have to signup at EVForge.net and pick a username (no
details required, just an email address), then you fill out a form on
the site where you pick a subdomain, and describe the
project/business/whatever for the directory. That's it. Includes FTP
access, PHP, mysql and postgresql if you need it.
You can point any domain name from any registrar to your site, just let
us know.
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> That's how I feel about this EV list. Without it, we'd be a bunch of
>> isolated nuts tinkering in our garages.
Doug Weathers wrote:
> And with it, we're a bunch of isolated nuts typing on keyboards? :)
'Fraid so! That's why I try to spend more time in the garage and basement than
I do at this keyboard!
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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I'm taking a look at a car soon,
if I buy it, it would need to be moved 214 miles.
I was wondering if the list could share their experience.
Vehicle weight must be over 3000 lbs (that's
with some batteries :-).
I see some options
1) pay a transporter - not likely, $800 first quote I got
2) Move it myself
A) My Odyssey - I would need to buy a hitch ($99 ebay, but
it is planned anyway), and a tow bar ($49 ebay)
or rent a tow dolly from UHaul
However, this means trusting the back tires of the car
and giving the Hoda's Xmission a workout (though this is
the third Xmission in it, since the first 2 went bad under
the extended warrantee/non-recall)
B) Borrow a van - eg, inlaws, buy them a hitch, then buy tow bar
or rent a car trailer. This means trusting
their transmission.
C) Rent a truck - Penske wanted $400 one way, without
adding the cost of the trailer
D) Rent a truck - A friend of mine said rent one wide enough to
winch the car into. I had already discounted
that idea, but I would be curious if it has
ever been tried. Probably violates TOS
but I see "Horseless Carriage" around here often.
3) Seller delivers - either buy the tow bar and lend it to him,
or pay for him to rent a trailer
(I can ask if he has one :-)
I was wondering what people have done, what works....
1 and 3 have the lowest liability on my part,
(and I could probably work that day - pay for the move :-)
I would need to examine the tires before transporting
it on its own wheels, which is not cool, because I would
want to know what to expect before going down there.
BTW, I mentioned in the other thread, I'll need to tow
it to be inspected and registered, so the tow bar and
hitch are basically sunk costs. (Also, someday, you can
imagine the call home: "Honey, the batteries are down,
the controller is fried, could you get the tow bar
from the shed and drive down here to pick me up....")
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On 7 Jan 2006 at 23:26, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> I was wondering what people have done, what works....
I dragged a Honda Civic from California to Ohio behind an old Camaro. Honda
trans in neutral - no problem. Then I dragged it to PA, then to Ohio, then
to Indiana, then to VA, then to Ohio again ... with a towbar. Some of those
trips were with the car behind a U-Haul or other rental van. One of them
was behind an '87 VW Golf (no batteries in the Honda, so it weighed about
1700 lb compared to the VW's ~2500).
I've also had 2 cars moved by auto haulers. I think that what they charge
is pretty reasonable, considering the hassle of moving it myself, but YMMV.
Here's an idea: get a towbar for the car you want to fetch. Then find
somebody who has an RV and would like to take a vacation!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Roland,
Thanks for the great description. The pics look great on evalbum. It
sounds like you're fully wired for all kinds of testing. Also sounds like
it gets cold where you are in Montana too. Do you have any data on the
thermal decay of your battery bank and controller when they've been out in
subzero temps? I'll certainly want to monitor the controller temp closely
as Otmar says the power caps are only spec'd to -25*C.
Maybe going to a dual cooling system such as yours would be a good idea.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Weatherizing a Zilla1K, PFC20 and WarP 9
Hello Mike & Paula,
I mounted my Zilla, main contactor, shunt, and 12 volt starting relays on a
chassis plate that is extended from the firewall about 8 inches. The chassis
has a fan mount on one side for a 6 inch Dayton blower fan with a 6 inch
carburetor air filter. There is a louver exhaust grill on the other side.
There is inlet cutout in the bottom of the enclosure for the water cool
hoses to come in.
The reason the enclosure is extended from the firewall and mounted up high
so its only 1/2 inch from the hood, so its away from the hood edges for rain
or snow getting into it. I also install a trunk like weather stripping on
the hood back and edges.
I also have a Stewart Warner temperature sensor mounted on the heat sink
that runs to a 0 to 600 degree F gage. There is also a standard Stewart
Warner coolant temperature sender mounted in the water cooling system that
is mounted on brass fittings on the return line coming out a oil cooler
radiator.
The Warp 9 motor has a additional 6 inch filter Dayton blower motor that is
mounted right on the brush screen covers which is held in place with a steel
frame that bolts to the motor face that has two 5/16 inch bolts holes. This
increase the airflow as to keep any rain or splash up out. Also, I drape a
1/8 inch rubber skirting that is fasten to the inner fenders which covers
the suspensions system going all the way down over the frame member and
beside the motors.
I had no problem pushing threw a foot of snow, because the motor is mounted
just rear of the existing engine cross member and a bit higher than the
bottom. The cross member has a welded angle deflector on the front that is
up lifted like ski's.
If its below 0 degrees, I leave the cooling system off until the Zilla warms
up to 100 degrees, than I may just turn on the fans only to keep it below
100 degrees. In the summer with under hood temperature of 140 degrees and
the ambient air at 100 degrees, I can maintain a Zilla temperature of 99
degrees with the pumps and fans going.
If its raining or snowing, than I will turn on the fans to pressure the
units.
I do not park this EV outside not for more than a hour at a time. Its park
inside a building that has over 80 R-factor that maintains year around
temperature of 70 degrees. If the out side temperature is 30 below, the
inside compartments are stilling reading 60 to 65 degrees. Its takes a
while to cool down enclose compartments.
The battery and battery charger are also install in totally enclose
fiberglass compartments that are also fan cool and exhaust with explosion
proof fans. There are double gasket covers that hinge over the batteries
and charger compartments. After I open the charger cover, the PFC-50 rises
up on air struts for access to the controls. There is a addition hinged
cover with a rear glass that covers all these compartments.
To see what this unit looks like:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470.html<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/470
.html>
Roland
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In God We Trust. All others bring data.
Actually I did try to re-read on this. I have no field experience in
this area so I tried to research again to confirm.
15 ga is the max diameter for 10KHz that maintains current homogeneity
in the conductor. It is true that simply exceeding the skin depth does
not mean it won't get a lower resistance from a great diameter, but that
the resistance won't decrease as much as expected. The effect is more
dramatic as the diameter becomes several times the skin depth.
Skin depth on solid copper wire is 0.66mm at 10KHz
Diameter of 2/0 is 9.26592mm, radius 4.63296mm
Rac/Rdc = (r^2)/(2*r*S - S^2); //where r=radius and S=skin depth.
Units cancel out.
I believe that's for cases where diameter>>skin depth, we're at ratio of
14:1 so that seems applicable.
I get 3.779 times the DC resistance for 2/0, or a 278% increase, for
10KHz. Check and see if my math is correct. I did see another formula
Rac/Rdc = (r^2) / (r^2 - (r-S)^2); the results are the same.
Wire stranding does not affect skin depth very significantly except in
the case of Litz wire, which uses strands insulated from one another and
braided in such a way that each conductor has equal exposure to being on
the inside and outside of the bundle.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Danny, please re-read about skin effect - at 10 kHz you hardly
notice *any* (aside MUCH higher harmonics if this 10kHz isn't
close to a sine wave).
To have only outer 0.66mm of 2/0 cable conducting
(e.g. having equal conductivity of a hollow copper tube
with 0.66mm thick walls) will take tens if not hundreds
of MHz.
If 10 kHz would cause such a noticeable skin effect,
no one would be able to connect remote speakers to an audio
amplifier without great losses; in fact no one would make
bulk copper speaker wires.
Skin Depth is defined as the distance below the surface where the
current density has fallen to 1/e or 37% of its value at the surface.
I don't want to start throwing formulas here, but at 10 kHz total
resistance of the 2/0 cable will increase by less than 1%. Trust me.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
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Otmar,
Thanks for confirming warranty on damage due to extreme cold startup.
Fortunately it only rarely gets that cold here so monitoring it would be
easy. I could easily run a timed heat cycle prior to engaging the main
contactors to ensure the caps start at above the temperature spec, kinda
like heating the glowplugs on my dearly departed diesel F-350 (not dead
departed, just departed from me). I'd be more than happy to pull test data
for you though. Could it be that you could set the controller to run
minimum voltage or current settings until the power head heated up to some
preset temperature. It wouldn't have to be much. Even if the Caps were
running out of spec because of cold would such a limitation effectively
protect the power head.
Out of curiosity what type and value cap is inside that you'd be concerned
about?
I may take Rolands advice from a previous post and do a dual liquid/air
cooling system. Maybe I could make it air only up to a certain temp and
then have the liquid pump kick on.
Thanks
Mike from Anchorage
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Otmar
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 7:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Weatherizing a Zilla1K, PFC20 and WarP 9
At 2:03 AM -0900 1/2/06, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
>On rare occasion we get -29*C (-20*F) here in Anchorage. Sounds like I may
>be looking to heat the thing, or at least insulate it some for winter
>driving. It will live in a heated garage at night and park in a building
>parking garage for ~10 hours during the work day. I suspect that just
>operating it moderately would heat it up inside an enclosure to well above
>the cap specs.
Mike,
I agree that running the Zilla some will raise the temperature to
within the spec of the capacitors, but if it's too cold it would be
the first few seconds that would worry me. A under-performing cap can
blow the controller pretty quickly. I'll cover the warranty if you
don't mind being the cold weather test case! If something doesn't
work, I'll figure out how to make it better, or maybe a heater will
be required in the end.
> Its just my guess that I'd see some efficiency gain
>operating it in the cold, maybe some on the motor too.
The controller will likely lose a little bit of efficiency in the
cold, but the motor will certainly get better.
>The only hit I'll
>take is loss of battery capacity plus having to run a heater (which is no
>minor thing). My thinking about the base plate cooling would be to mount it
>in a Nema 3X enclosure and hang a large power supply size heat sink that
has
>a sealed penetration directly to the base plate. If I could get enough
>cooling from that to operate a moderate daily commuter in +20*C (+70*F) I
>might not need water cooling.
I advise against that. Your vehicle is about triple the weight of
what I call a "light" conversion and I think the controller would get
too hot on warmer days.
>The conversion is a Mitsibishi MightyMax P/U. 2350 lbs curb weight right
>now on my driveway. I'm figuring 3350 lbs once converted.
That sounds like a good vehicle. Please keep us informed on how it works
out!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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