EV Digest 5094
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Bad floodies??
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Bad floodies??
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Bad floodies??
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: power steering
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Bad floodies??
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Bad floodies??
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Bad floodies??
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Bad floodies??
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: power steering
by Osmo Sarin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Gliders
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Thundersky astonishing wishes [long] Great Letter!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: power steering
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Jan 2006 at 19:43, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> The flooded
> cells will lose capacity much faster than the AGM's when they're cold.
I've never heard this before, nor have I observed it, and I can't figure out
why it should be. Can you explain the electrochemistry behind your
contention?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Jan 2006 at 16:03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So is there a single site which can quantitatively report on the cost
> comparisons of flooded vs AGM (sealed) given the parameters we all face?
There are no hard and fast rules. Much depends on how you use the
batteries, how heavily you load them, how far you discharge them, how
carefully you chare them. But for a particular situation, a few years ago I
calculated the relative cost per mile of driving for various types of
batteries. This is based on published cycle life estimates.
East Penn 8G27 (12v gel marine), 400 cycles at 50% DOD = $0.20
Optima G31 (12v AGM marine/gp), 500 cycles at 50% DOD = $0.14
Trojan 27THM (12v flooded marine), 300 cycles at 80% DOD = $0.08
USBMC 2200 (6v flooded golf car), 650 cycles at 80% DOD = $0.04
Remember, your mileage WILL vary. But I think it's not out of line to
estimate that in gentle use AGMs will cost 2-3 times as much per mile of use
as flooded golf car batteries.
OTOH, AGMs can withstand heavy current draws better. If you drive hard with
lots of neck-snapping acceleration, AGMs may in fact cost you very little
more or even a bit less than flooded batteries.
> If I pick a bad choice I am out thousands.
I get the impression that you are a beginner. Almost everybody murders his
first batteries - it's part of the learning process. Sometimes the second
and third. It doesn't pay to get expensive batteries for the first few
packs.
I recommend that you find an Interstate dealer and buy US Battery or
Interstate Workaholic (same thing, just rebadged) golf car batteries. They
are good batteries but not particularly expensive.
I don't think a BMS will return its cost when you're using golf car
batteries.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget the other benefits of sealed batteries.
**They maintain capacity better when they are cold, AGM's more so than Gels,
however both retain much better than floodies.
**Gels come back (with the usual life reduction) from deep discharges and
freezing a little better than AGM's but still much better than floodies.
**They typically have higher CA and CCA ratings than floodies.
**They will charge at a higher rate than floodies if your charging time is
limited.
I agree you can murder all types of batteries equally well. Sealed
batteries more so by overcharging and floodies more so by over discharge and
poor maintenance. My perspective on this is that I can control my charge
process from the comfort of my warm garage. I cannot control the discharge
process if I'm stuck in the cold. I'm basically lazy when it comes to my
batteries and since I know I abuse them I picked the ones that would take a
little more abuse with a little less care.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bad floodies??
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Lee, this is interesting that you got 10K miles out of the Exide 6v from
> Sam's, since I hear horror stories about the exide batteries.
The Exides don't seem to be as good as the Trojans or USBs, but are a good
deal if you get them cheaper. For me, the Sam's Club batteries were under
$40
each.
> For the money flooded sounds like the cheap way to go.
Floodeds are usually less than half the cost per mile of sealed batteries.
However, you can "murder" either kind early from negligence or abuse.
> If I get 5 years and 40K miles out of a pack (with proper maintenance)
> I'm OK.
Golf cart batteries can last over 5 years, but 20k miles is doing pretty
good.
If you drive a lot, they will die from cycle life before calendar life.
> What I have read however is that only people with AGMs are getting this
> amount of life but I'm also reading that others are getting good life out
> of flooded. (CONFUSION ABOUNDS)
AGMs have a *shorter* life than floodeds. When you consider that they also
cost more, your cost per mile is 2x to 4x higher with AGMs. What you get in
return is lower maintenance, no watering, and a cleaner battery box.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if the Mazda 3 pump would make noise?
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-01-14 at 16:27 -0800, mike golub wrote:
>
> > I heard that the Mister Two electric pump is
> noisey?
> > and draws lots of amps...
> >
>
> There are differing opinions on this, but in my
> experience around two
> vehicles that use the MR2 pump, it is indeed noisy.
> For the outside
> observer it will almost certainly be the loudest
> mechanical thing in
> your vehicle, at least until you get going and your
> transmission noise
> takes over. It'll almost certainly be louder than
> your vacuum pump.
> More important than how loud it is though, is how it
> sounds. It's a
> mid-high range plaintive whine, that dips in pitch
> in response to
> steering effort. Although it's part of the pump's
> normal operation, it
> sounds like it's struggling. And with the volume of
> the sound combined
> with the public's relative unfamiliarity with the
> sound characteristics
> of EVs, I think it makes the whole car sound like
> it's struggling. It's
> an unfortunate sound for the vehicle to make in my
> opinion. On the other
> hand, it does work well even on vehicles much larger
> than the tiny MR2,
> and it is a convenient solution to the power
> steering problem.
>
> A few months ago I was intrigued to learn that the
> Mazda 3 also has an
> electric power steering pump, so I bought a used one
> from a junkyard,
> which looks to be in great shape. It has an attached
> reservoir, and
> frankly looks a lot more attractive than the MR2
> unit. I haven't gotten
> around to testing it however, and I'm not sure yet
> how to go about it as
> the electrical interface is not immediately
> intuitive. Need to check the
> OEM documentation...
>
> --chris
>
>
>
> > Thanks!
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is no difference in electrochemistry between the two. Floodies, Gels,
AGM's, they are all lead acid and the chemistry is all the same. Its
Physics. Acid stratification occurs in wet cells because he uniformity of
electrolyte concentration cannot be maintained throughout the cell. When
you charge or discharge the battery the acid being released or consumed at
the plates mixes up the solution a bit and makes it more uniform. Gel cells
prevent stratification by suspending the electrolyte in a silica solution
which immobilizes the electrolyte particles. AGM's use the capillary action
between the glass matt fibers to achieve the same effect. Among the other
benefits this produces, the electrolyte concentration is uniform throughout
the cell and the plates are at all times in contact with the most efficient
concentration of electrolyte. During discharge (and charge too) he
de-stratification takes time in a wet cell all the while operating at
sub-optimal efficiency. At colder temperatures it takes longer. The
effect is more pronounced discharging at high rates and less so at low
rates.
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Bad floodies??
On 15 Jan 2006 at 19:43, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> The flooded
> cells will lose capacity much faster than the AGM's when they're cold.
I've never heard this before, nor have I observed it, and I can't figure out
why it should be. Can you explain the electrochemistry behind your
contention?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it is getting cold...of course it's a little
drier up here. So I think that helps battery life
somewhat.
I tend to do things half-ass first. And then learn
from my mistakes. Does that explain anything?
I was told a charged battery doesn't freeze.
Does anyone know something different?
Maybe it will, but a battery in use produces enough
heat, that it can't freeze while in use.
You got to understand that in Fairbanks, AK we have
places to plug our cars in all over the place, much
more than Anchorage.
I plan on having the car either being used or on the
charger.
(Not sure if there's a trickle charger mode on any of
the chargers?)
I'm looking for maximum range.
If they last less than 12 months, Sam's will replace
them...I think.
--- Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike,
> was wondering three things about your rig.
> 1. what range are you looking to run on a charge?
> 2. are you planning to drive year round?
> 3. if so how are you going to keep them warm at
> night?
>
> When I look up your current temp I see its currently
> -28*F. The flooded
> cells will lose capacity much faster than the AGM's
> when they're cold. Also
> you run the risk of them freezing in a
> not-fully-charged state. I've had
> 6000AH gel banks freeze over solid (in the state of
> dead) for the winter and
> with a little coaxing they actually took a charge
> and lasted a couple more
> years ina cycle charge environment. Certainly
> they'd have lasted longer if
> they weren't abused. Floodies on the other hand, if
> the cases weren't
> cracked by the water swelling when frozen and
> actually took a charge,
> certainly wouldn't handle many more cycles. I'm
> only bringing these
> possibilities up because the Auto Electric where I'm
> located gave me their
> delivered costs for their Deka AGM's. $138 for the
> Seamate 8A31 or $142 for
> the Intimidator 9A31. Both batteries are 100AH and
> have virtually identical
> specs except the Intimidators have slightly higher
> cranking amps (800A
> versus 600A if I remember without looking at the
> sheets). I actually met
> the Deka rep the day I ordered my batteries (planned
> it that way to grill
> him with questions). He was tickled about what I
> was going to use these for
> and basically told the dealer to pass these on at
> their cost. I could give
> you his contact info. Surely he has a dealer in
> your your part of the
> state. You'd only be looking at extra $380 for 10
> SeaMate 8A31's, with all
> the benefits of AGM's. To me that made the
> difference. If I had to pay
> shipping on those things to Alaska though, I'd have
> gone with cheap
> floodies.
>
> BTW, what are you paying for electricity up there?
> I'm **currently** at
> $0.13/KWH with talk of it going up a few cents in
> the near future.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:39 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Bad floodies??
>
>
> I'm building my ev right now, and I am going to get
> $1,000 for 20 6v from Sam's club.
> If they last enough time (2-3 yrs) that I can
> upgrade
> to NiMh or Li at a later date.
>
> The AGMs don't make sense for me when I might have
> these other battery options in several years.
>
> My guess.
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > LEE,
> > This is interesting that you got 10K miles out of
> > the exide 6vt from Sams
> > since I hear horror stories about the exide
> > batteries. Since I am nearing
> > the finish mark on my truck and batteries will
> need
> > installation in the very
> > near future I am again aggressively researching
> > batteries. For the money
> > flooded sounds like the cheap way to go. If I get
> 5
> > years and 40K miles out
> > of a pack (with proper maintenance) I'm OK.
> > (1275/40000=3.2 cents per mile.
> > versus about 11.6 cents per mile on my ICE now)
> >
> > What I have read however is that only people with
> > AGMs are getting this
> > amount of life but I'm also reading that others
> are
> > getting good life out of
> > flooded. (CONFUSION ABOUNDS) The upfront cost is
> > only part of the equation.
> > I don't mind quarterly maintenance for flooded if
> > that will cover the
> > watering; much more that monthly maintenance and
> the
> > issue of flooded vs
> > sealed becomes moot. This is of course with proper
> > regulation of the daily
> > charge AND monitoring. However I also don't mind
> > spending double for AGMs IF
> > they have double the life as standard flooded
> (deep
> > cycle). There is an
> > enormous amount of info about batteries on the net
> > with a variety of
> > opinions sprinkled within.
> >
> > So is there a single site which can quantitatively
> > report on the cost
> > comparisons of flooded vs AGM (sealed) given the
> > parameters we all face?
> > That is initial cost (various brands / models),
> > assuming monitored and
> > proper charging / discharging routines, and miles
> of
> > use? It's one thing to
> > spend a 1300 on 20 6vts for 15K miles of life
> versus
> > spending 2600 for 12vt
> > (same Ahr capacity) and only gaining 2 cents per
> > mile advantage. Plus the
> > added costs for charging systems must be
> considered
> > for this. It may be a
> > good project for EVForge Eh??
> >
> > Anyone chime in here.
> >
> > Pedroman
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: Bad floodies?
> >
> >
> > > Michaela Merz wrote:
> > >> I need about 100 to 130 Amps to hold 55 mph.
> > Freshly charged batteries
> > >> drop from > 150 Volts to < 133 Volts on
> > accelleration pulling approx.
> > >> 200 A.
> > >
> > > That sounds about right. I had a set of Sam's
> Club
> > Exide 6v golf cart
> > > batteries in my ComutaVan. When new and warm,
> they
> > dropped 0.5v at 200a;
> > > when
> > > 5 years old and with 10,000+ miles on them, they
> > dropped 1v under load.
> > > Your
> > > 24 batteries drop from 150v to 133v which is
> 0.7v
> > per 6v battery.
> > >
> > >> After about 15 Minutes pulling 150 A, voltage
> > starts to go down very
> > >> fast, though idle voltage goes back up to > 140
> > Volts. After another 5
> > >> Minutes, Voltage has reached approx. 120 V (at
> > 150 A) and idle Voltage is
> > >> now at 135 V. Everything goes downhill from
> there
> > very rapidly.
> > >
> > > Are your batteries cold? This significantly
> raises
> > their internal
> > > resistance,
> > > and thus voltage drops.
> > >
> > > Have you been chronically overcharging (using a
> > lot of water)?
> > > Overcharging
> > > tends to cause grid corrosion, which permanently
> > increases the internal
> > > resistance. A batter with this problem has
> normal
> > voltage and capacity,
> > > but
> > > behaves like it has a resistor in series with
> it.
> > >
> > > Do you have any "stinkers" in the pack that have
> > unusually low amphour
> > > capacity? All it takes is one bad cell to
> increase
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure how the moisture affects the capacity. But you have a point
about the plugs in Fairbanks. I forgot about that. There seems to be one on
EVery parking space :-D Although I don't think people turn their gassers
off, at all, throughout the day in the winter either ;-) If they had plugs
here in Anchorage no doubt there would be meters on them. I guess that
wouldn't be so bad for an EV though.
No, a charged battery can freeze but not typically until the whiskey does.
But its AH Capacity will be severely reduced. I bet very few readers on this
list have ever seen frozen whiskey :) The problem is getting caught
uncharged in the cold with no receptacle. This is usually fatal for the
plates on an unsealed battery. Oh well, I guess you could still drink the
whiskey ;~P
The thing thats hard on flooded batteries is getting the right charge
settings in the varying temperatures to keep from sulfating the batteries
too much. If bubbling them and then just adding water was all it took to
keep them perky that would be one thing. I guess caring for batteries is
like having a green thumb. Some people can grow watermelons in a sand box.
I can't keep a dandelion alive in my tortoises habitat; they do just fine in
my yard though :-(
..since you have an abundance of charging stations, maybe a set of
inexpensive battery warmers would help keep you capacity up. Although it is
still springtime weather there right now :-D
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Bad floodies??
I think it is getting cold...of course it's a little
drier up here. So I think that helps battery life
somewhat.
I tend to do things half-ass first. And then learn
from my mistakes. Does that explain anything?
I was told a charged battery doesn't freeze.
Does anyone know something different?
Maybe it will, but a battery in use produces enough
heat, that it can't freeze while in use.
You got to understand that in Fairbanks, AK we have
places to plug our cars in all over the place, much
more than Anchorage.
I plan on having the car either being used or on the
charger.
(Not sure if there's a trickle charger mode on any of
the chargers?)
I'm looking for maximum range.
If they last less than 12 months, Sam's will replace
them...I think.
--- Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike,
> was wondering three things about your rig.
> 1. what range are you looking to run on a charge?
> 2. are you planning to drive year round?
> 3. if so how are you going to keep them warm at
> night?
>
> When I look up your current temp I see its currently
> -28*F. The flooded
> cells will lose capacity much faster than the AGM's
> when they're cold. Also
> you run the risk of them freezing in a
> not-fully-charged state. I've had
> 6000AH gel banks freeze over solid (in the state of
> dead) for the winter and
> with a little coaxing they actually took a charge
> and lasted a couple more
> years ina cycle charge environment. Certainly
> they'd have lasted longer if
> they weren't abused. Floodies on the other hand, if
> the cases weren't
> cracked by the water swelling when frozen and
> actually took a charge,
> certainly wouldn't handle many more cycles. I'm
> only bringing these
> possibilities up because the Auto Electric where I'm
> located gave me their
> delivered costs for their Deka AGM's. $138 for the
> Seamate 8A31 or $142 for
> the Intimidator 9A31. Both batteries are 100AH and
> have virtually identical
> specs except the Intimidators have slightly higher
> cranking amps (800A
> versus 600A if I remember without looking at the
> sheets). I actually met
> the Deka rep the day I ordered my batteries (planned
> it that way to grill
> him with questions). He was tickled about what I
> was going to use these for
> and basically told the dealer to pass these on at
> their cost. I could give
> you his contact info. Surely he has a dealer in
> your your part of the
> state. You'd only be looking at extra $380 for 10
> SeaMate 8A31's, with all
> the benefits of AGM's. To me that made the
> difference. If I had to pay
> shipping on those things to Alaska though, I'd have
> gone with cheap
> floodies.
>
> BTW, what are you paying for electricity up there?
> I'm **currently** at
> $0.13/KWH with talk of it going up a few cents in
> the near future.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:39 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Bad floodies??
>
>
> I'm building my ev right now, and I am going to get
> $1,000 for 20 6v from Sam's club.
> If they last enough time (2-3 yrs) that I can
> upgrade
> to NiMh or Li at a later date.
>
> The AGMs don't make sense for me when I might have
> these other battery options in several years.
>
> My guess.
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > LEE,
> > This is interesting that you got 10K miles out of
> > the exide 6vt from Sams
> > since I hear horror stories about the exide
> > batteries. Since I am nearing
> > the finish mark on my truck and batteries will
> need
> > installation in the very
> > near future I am again aggressively researching
> > batteries. For the money
> > flooded sounds like the cheap way to go. If I get
> 5
> > years and 40K miles out
> > of a pack (with proper maintenance) I'm OK.
> > (1275/40000=3.2 cents per mile.
> > versus about 11.6 cents per mile on my ICE now)
> >
> > What I have read however is that only people with
> > AGMs are getting this
> > amount of life but I'm also reading that others
> are
> > getting good life out of
> > flooded. (CONFUSION ABOUNDS) The upfront cost is
> > only part of the equation.
> > I don't mind quarterly maintenance for flooded if
> > that will cover the
> > watering; much more that monthly maintenance and
> the
> > issue of flooded vs
> > sealed becomes moot. This is of course with proper
> > regulation of the daily
> > charge AND monitoring. However I also don't mind
> > spending double for AGMs IF
> > they have double the life as standard flooded
> (deep
> > cycle). There is an
> > enormous amount of info about batteries on the net
> > with a variety of
> > opinions sprinkled within.
> >
> > So is there a single site which can quantitatively
> > report on the cost
> > comparisons of flooded vs AGM (sealed) given the
> > parameters we all face?
> > That is initial cost (various brands / models),
> > assuming monitored and
> > proper charging / discharging routines, and miles
> of
> > use? It's one thing to
> > spend a 1300 on 20 6vts for 15K miles of life
> versus
> > spending 2600 for 12vt
> > (same Ahr capacity) and only gaining 2 cents per
> > mile advantage. Plus the
> > added costs for charging systems must be
> considered
> > for this. It may be a
> > good project for EVForge Eh??
> >
> > Anyone chime in here.
> >
> > Pedroman
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: Bad floodies?
> >
> >
> > > Michaela Merz wrote:
> > >> I need about 100 to 130 Amps to hold 55 mph.
> > Freshly charged batteries
> > >> drop from > 150 Volts to < 133 Volts on
> > accelleration pulling approx.
> > >> 200 A.
> > >
> > > That sounds about right. I had a set of Sam's
> Club
> > Exide 6v golf cart
> > > batteries in my ComutaVan. When new and warm,
> they
> > dropped 0.5v at 200a;
> > > when
> > > 5 years old and with 10,000+ miles on them, they
> > dropped 1v under load.
> > > Your
> > > 24 batteries drop from 150v to 133v which is
> 0.7v
> > per 6v battery.
> > >
> > >> After about 15 Minutes pulling 150 A, voltage
> > starts to go down very
> > >> fast, though idle voltage goes back up to > 140
> > Volts. After another 5
> > >> Minutes, Voltage has reached approx. 120 V (at
> > 150 A) and idle Voltage is
> > >> now at 135 V. Everything goes downhill from
> there
> > very rapidly.
> > >
> > > Are your batteries cold? This significantly
> raises
> > their internal
> > > resistance,
> > > and thus voltage drops.
> > >
> > > Have you been chronically overcharging (using a
> > lot of water)?
> > > Overcharging
> > > tends to cause grid corrosion, which permanently
> > increases the internal
> > > resistance. A batter with this problem has
> normal
> > voltage and capacity,
> > > but
> > > behaves like it has a resistor in series with
> it.
> > >
> > > Do you have any "stinkers" in the pack that have
> > unusually low amphour
> > > capacity? All it takes is one bad cell to
> increase
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just an afterthought, one reason you may not notice much difference is
because the wet cells typically have more AH capacity to start with for the
same mass of battery. This is kinda electrochemisty because the sealed
batteries are what they call "starved electrolyte" cells, meaning the total
volume of acid is less. :-O
I'm not knocking the flooded batteries. I'd have bought them instead for my
first rig if I had to pay shipping on the AGM's. Just got a deal I couldn't
refuse.
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike & Paula Willmon
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Bad floodies??
There is no difference in electrochemistry between the two. Floodies, Gels,
AGM's, they are all lead acid and the chemistry is all the same. Its
Physics. Acid stratification occurs in wet cells because he uniformity of
electrolyte concentration cannot be maintained throughout the cell. When
you charge or discharge the battery the acid being released or consumed at
the plates mixes up the solution a bit and makes it more uniform. Gel cells
prevent stratification by suspending the electrolyte in a silica solution
which immobilizes the electrolyte particles. AGM's use the capillary action
between the glass matt fibers to achieve the same effect. Among the other
benefits this produces, the electrolyte concentration is uniform throughout
the cell and the plates are at all times in contact with the most efficient
concentration of electrolyte. During discharge (and charge too) he
de-stratification takes time in a wet cell all the while operating at
sub-optimal efficiency. At colder temperatures it takes longer. The
effect is more pronounced discharging at high rates and less so at low
rates.
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Bad floodies??
On 15 Jan 2006 at 19:43, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
> The flooded
> cells will lose capacity much faster than the AGM's when they're cold.
I've never heard this before, nor have I observed it, and I can't figure out
why it should be. Can you explain the electrochemistry behind your
contention?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some electric steering pumps also:
http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?
content=remanufactured_electric_power_steering_and_electric_hydraulic_po
wer_steering
Osmo Sarin
16.1.2006 kello 07:15, Christopher Robison kirjoitti:
On Sat, 2006-01-14 at 16:27 -0800, mike golub wrote:
I heard that the Mister Two electric pump is noisey?
and draws lots of amps...
There are differing opinions on this, but in my experience around two
vehicles that use the MR2 pump, it is indeed noisy. For the outside
observer it will almost certainly be the loudest mechanical thing in
your vehicle, at least until you get going and your transmission noise
takes over. It'll almost certainly be louder than your vacuum pump.
More important than how loud it is though, is how it sounds. It's a
mid-high range plaintive whine, that dips in pitch in response to
steering effort. Although it's part of the pump's normal operation, it
sounds like it's struggling. And with the volume of the sound combined
with the public's relative unfamiliarity with the sound characteristics
of EVs, I think it makes the whole car sound like it's struggling. It's
an unfortunate sound for the vehicle to make in my opinion. On the
other
hand, it does work well even on vehicles much larger than the tiny MR2,
and it is a convenient solution to the power steering problem.
A few months ago I was intrigued to learn that the Mazda 3 also has an
electric power steering pump, so I bought a used one from a junkyard,
which looks to be in great shape. It has an attached reservoir, and
frankly looks a lot more attractive than the MR2 unit. I haven't gotten
around to testing it however, and I'm not sure yet how to go about it
as
the electrical interface is not immediately intuitive. Need to check
the
OEM documentation...
--chris
Thanks!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2006-01-11 at 09:36, Bob Rice wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:00 AM
> Subject: Gliders
> >
> > Tonight on the NBC nightly news there will be a piece about that new
> Chinese car that will sell for under $10,000. Maybe that is a good place to
> start for a glider.
> >
> Saw a good article in yesterdaze NY Times. A Chinese out fit has a car
> at Detroit, to show the world, They aim to come in at 10 grand, too.
> Different than the "Cherry "one that is SUPOSED to go on sale here soon.
> AFTER they get it to meet USA crash tests? Well, we ,USA , laffed at the
> "Toyopets" and VW Beetles when they first hit these shores.Gees! Will they
> sell them at Wal*Mart?<g>!
I'd be weary of quality... at least for now... until they are proven.
My bet is that they will have problems for the first
5-10 years, then, just like the japanese manufacturers, they
will equal or surpass most of their competition.
AFAIK, they are already in parts of europe.
--
Aaron Birenboim \ I have an inferiority complex,
Albuquerque, NM, USA \ but its not a very good one.
aaron at birenboim.com \
http://aaron.birenboim.com \
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Philippe an' All;
Thanks for the link. With the charming letter from Thunder sky, glad
they have "Made a great progress" over the last year.After all, we here are
their test pilots, although the motorbike folks in China seem to be doing
their share<g>!Tjhe " Complain for Fire" Issue....Hmmm? It seems to be a
charging issue here?Seems like some sort of thermal shutoff would be a
neccessity, using these things. The explosions? Well, ya can get decent
explosions from Led Acids, too.How, what to these things actually DO, catch
fire and BURN?Explode?Could be embarrasing in traffic<g>!
I sure wish the Thunder Sky Folks the best of the New Year, that they can
address these issues, soon enough. I would imagine they are working on it
full bore as the Olympics in Bay Jing, they, the Chicom Govt. Wants EV's
there to showcase to the World Chinese Tech?More Power to them!
Seeya at BBB
Bob " With honest and excelsior additude" LOVE it!<G>!Hey? Good
name for a T Sky Racer the "Excelsior Additude"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:16 AM
Subject: Thundersky astonishing wishes [long]
> Hello all,
> just to let you now about this informative message as posted by Mikechen
in
> TS Yahoo group:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A LETTER TO OUR CUSTOMERS ALL OVER THE WORLD
> ---BY THUNDER-SKY IN THE EVE OF THE NEW YEAR
>
> Dear customers from all over the world:
> Really appreciate for your sincere help at all times to Thunder-sky,
> and because of your interests and demands, our company has made a
> great progress from producing no more than 14 cells (700 ah)/day in a
> small lab in 1998 to 88000 ah/day with various types now. It has come
> into mass production and even the demands exceeds our supply, which
> is really a great prospect. In the beginning of the New year, We do
> believe that we can have a more beautiful future under your support!
> Looking back into the past few years from our setting up in 1998,in
> our 7 years' long and hard researching and developing road, there are
> infinite emotions and words we want to share. Which made us feel the
> most proud is that our Thunder-sky lithium batteries have been sold
> from China to the remainder Asia, and then to America, Africa and the
> Europe, and based on this trade relations, we therefore got the
> chance to know more than 3000 customers from all of the world, and
> have produced and sold out 310000 batteries (61630000 ah) in total
> during these years, although a few of them also brought some
> inconvenience and troubles to our customers in application field. We
> now attach these 11 complaints during the past 7 years as below, with
> honest and excelsior attitude, expecting your understanding. At the
> same time, we also provide you our different kinds of lithium battery
> with their safety performance and other index for your consideration.
>
> No.1:
> Time: JUL,1999
> Customer: Guangdong Shantou Zhaoyang Motorbike Ltd.
> Battery type: TS-LCP6163A(50AH)
> Qty: 14pcs(in series)
> Use:Install in a motorbike as a drive power
> Complain for:Fire
> Cause:directly charge the battery pack by the positive/negative line
> of an electric welding machine,caused short-circuit which leading to
> fire.
>
> No.2:
> Time:NOV,2000
> Customer:Hubei Xiangfan Dongfeng Citroen Car Ltd.
> Battery type: TS-LP8581A(100AH)
> Qty:240pcs(in series/parallel)
> Use:Install in a EV car which is imported from France as a drive power
> Complain for:Fire when charging
> Cause:The electric car has covered from 290 km(first charge) to 360 km
> (the 51st charge),which in total is 5800 km.But at one time during
> charging(with no body and no BMS to monitor it),some monomer cell has
> been over-discharged and then continue to be overcharged with other
> cells in series, which caused short-circuit and fire.
>
> No.3:
> Time:MAR,2001
> Customer:A EV Car Company of Shenzhen Baoan
> Battery type:TS-LR10A(10AH)
> Qty:10pcs(in series)
> Use:Install in a electric bike as a drive power
> Complain for:Fire when charging
> Cause:The charger's manostat system was out of order,then lead the
> battery overcharged and fire.
>
> No.4:
> Time:JUL,2002
> Customer:A EV Car Trade Company from Shanghai
> Battery type:TS-LR10A(10AH)
> Qty:5000pcs(10pcs in a series)
> Use:Install in a electric bike as a drive power to sell
> Complain for:Fire when charging(happened in one of their customer)
> Cause:The charger was out of order,and there are no BMS,the over-
> discharged cell continue to be overcharged with other cells in
> series,then lead the overcharged battery short-circuit and fire.
>
> No.5:
> Time:MAY,2002
> Customer:Guangzhou Yangcheng Motorbike Ltd.
> Battery type:TS-LR10A(10AH)
> Qty:1800pcs(10pcs in a series)
> Use:Make it as a batteryt pack of "36V/10AH",and matched with the
> charger which made by Yangcheng,then installed in the electric bike
> as a drive power to sell.
> Complain for:Fire when charging(happened in one of their customer)
> Cause:Charge the battery at home,and the charger was out of
> order,with no BMS,the over-discharged cell continue to be overcharged
> with other cells in series,then lead the overcharged battery short-
> circuit and fire.
>
> No.6:
> Time:JUN,2003
> Customer:Kunshan Wanxiang EV Car company
> Battery type:TS-8581A(100AH)
> Qty:180pcs
> Use:put cells in series/parallel by themselves,and charge them by 7
> in series,no BMS,and then directly installed them into an EV Car.
> Complain for:Fire during the first charging
> Cause:No monitor system, continue to charge the over-discharged
> battery with other cells in series,instead to exchange it in time,and
> then the battery has been over-charged,which lead them short-circuit
> and fire.
>
> No.7:
> Time:OCT,2004
> Customer:A korea EV Car developing company
> Battery type:TS-8581A(100AH)
> Qty:28pcs(14pcs in a series)
> Use:used for a nautical instrument
> Complain for:Fire when charging
> Cause:When used them for two months,charge some already over-
> discharged battery with no BMS to monitor,and then overcharged the
> battery,which lead to short-circuit and fire.
>
> No.8:
> Time:NOV,2004
> Customer:American IC Company
> Battery type:TS-9393A(200AH)
> Qty:1700pcs(7pcs in series)
> Use:used for a nautical power instrument, to get the physical data of
> above 1000 meters under the sea
> Complain for:Fume during charging
> Cause:No protect device to the battery pack,some cells which were not
> full charged has been over-discharged,then caused fire during the
> continued charging. But for the battery pack were placed in a
> nitrogen environment, but not in atmosphere, there are no visible
> fire.
>
> No.9:
> Time:APR,2005
> Customer:Acoustic institute of the Science academe
> Battery type:TS-LP9393A(200AH) and TS-LP6163A(50AH)
> Qty:TS-LP9393A--14pcs;TS-LP6163A--10pcs
> Use:used for a nautical instrument
> Complain for:the 50AH battery caused fire when charging, which also
> spread to the 200AH battery.
> Cause:The cells were put in series, with no protecting device, after
> the 50AH cell over-discharging to 0V,continue to charge it with other
> cells in series,then overcharged them and caused short-circuit,which
> also spread to the 200AH battery beside.
>
> No.10:
> Time:AUG,2005
> Customer:A research academe of Hungary
> Battery type:TS-9393A(200AH)
> Qty: 4 pcs
> Use :For battery test
> Complain for:One cell caused fire when charging
> Cause:Made the cell in series battery pack,then do the charge-
> discharge cycle test,when the 320st tests has been done,the
> technologist were very excited and over-discharged one of the battery
> to 0V,then continue to charge the battery pack with big current,
> which made the OV battery short-circuit and fire.
>
> No.11:
> Time:NOV,2005
> Customer: Mechanic Institute of Xian Jiaotong University
> Battery type:TS-9393A(200AH)
> Qty:14pcs(7pcs in a series)
> Use:used for a two-seats solar EV Car
> Complain for:Fire when charging
> Cause:There are no protective device for the cell, and they made the
> charger which do not match to the cells and cannot charge the cell
> consistently by themselves, during repeated run of the car,one of the
> battery has been over-discharged, then continue to be charged at
> night with no body monitoring, which lead the 0V cell overcharged and
> then short-circuit and fire.
>
> >From our analysis to the above 11 accidents, we can see obviously
> that they all caused by inside short-circuit by over-discharging the
> battery and then continue to overcharge it. All these only caused
> fire but no explosion, and all happened during the charging time but
> not discharging, they are all "LP" batteries, that is the "LCP"
> battery we named now. This kind of battery have no fire preventing
> material in it, so when it is put in series, if one cell has been
> over-discharged, and then continue to charge it with other cells in
> series, it may make the battery pack cause fire.
> We now introduce the safety performance of the "LCP","LMP","LFP"
> three kinds of battery as below, and hope you can get a more clear
> understanding about Thunder-sky batteries in the coming new year.
>
> "LCP":(No fire preventing)
> Representative model:TS-LCP50AHA,TS-LCP90AHA,TS-LCP100AHA,TS-
> LCP200AHA,TS-LCP500AHA,TS-LCP1000AHA
> Safety index:
> 1)for overcharge and over-discharge;(Fire but no explosion)
> 2)for short-circuit;(Fire but no explosion)
> 3)for puncture;(Fire but no explosion)
> 4)for extrusion;(Fire but no explosion)
> 5)for fire;(No explosion)
> 6)for drench;(Fire but no explosion)
>
> "LMP":(No fire preventing)
> Representative model:TS-LMP30AHA,TS-LMP50AHA,TS-LMP150AHA,TS-
> LMP300AHA,TS-LMP500AHA,TS-LMP10000AHB
> Safety index:
> 1)for overcharge and over-discharge;(Fire but no explosion except the
> battery which capacity is below 100AH)
> 2)for short-circuit;(Fire but no explosion except the battery which
> capacity is below 100AH)
> 3)for puncture;(Fire but no explosion except the battery which
> capacity is below 100AH)
> 4)for extrusion;(Fire but no explosion except the battery which
> capacity is below 100AH)
> 5)for fire;(No explosion)
> 6)for drench;(Fire but no explosion)
>
> "LFP":(Fire preventing)
> Representative model:TS-LFP180AHA,TS-LFP300AHA,TS-LFP600AHA,TS-
> LFP1000AHA,TS-LFP9000AHB,TS-LFP10000AHB,
> Safety index:
> 1)for overcharge and over-discharge;(No fire, no explosion)
> 2)for short-circuit;(No fire, no explosion)
> 3)for puncture;(No fire, no explosion)
> 4)for extrusion;(No fire, no explosion)
> 5)for fire;(No explosion)
> 6)for drench;(No fire, no explosion)
>
> Thunder-sky battery has been named by people as "a kind of battery
> which will never cause explosion"! And this has already been proved
> in the last 7 years' application! But it's a truth that the "LCP"
> and "LMP" battery can cause fire according to the "Six safety
> standard". Whereas, it's still possible for us to solve this trouble,
> that is installing a fitted and reliable "BMS"(battery manage system)
> to the cell. We Thunder-sky will produce this "BMS" in large qty in
> the new year, and help to install it when buying our battery. "LFP"
> battery is a kind of fire preventing battery,you needn't to worry
> that it will cause fire. Of course,no matter what kind of battery you
> choose, we will give you our reliable service with our enthusiastic
> attitude!
> In the beginning of 2006,based on our existing technology and index
> of the three kinds of battery: "LCP" "LMP" and "LFP", we Thunder-sky
> will continue to research and develop more applicable lithium
> batteries for our customers!
>
> Happy new year and Hope everything goes your way!
>
>
> THUNDER-SKY BATTERY LIMITED
>
> IN THE EVE OF 2006
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Even if we can't now exactly what happenned, i feel confident than a
company
> which can say: "we had few fire on our cells and had analyzed with
customers
> the cause" can go now imho from my personal DEFCON 3 level to DEFCON 4
:^)
>
> if you read this, keep the good job at TS !
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an MR2 pump in the New Beetle.
- it is not that loud, but is the loudest thing in the car
- it is much quieter than the ICE it replaced
- once the car is rolling it cannot be heard inside or out
- it is much noisier inside the car than outside
- outside it can barely be heard
- it should be mounted on vibration/noise isolation mounts
- I do not know of anything else out there can draw substantially less
current.
(if you have an auto transmission, use can have the motor "idle" and
power the OEM pump)
However, each installation is different, I took the effort to isolate it and
reduce noise as much as possible.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: January 14, 2006 4:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: power steering
I found out that my 1986 toyota 4x4 truck did come with manual steering.
So I have a bunch of choices:
A- Run it with the power steering not connected.
B- Run it with the power steering box, and disconnect the pump and fluid.
C- Run it with the power steering and run a belt to the warp 9" motor tail.
D- Just install the manual box.
E- Get a Toyota MR2 electric ps pump.
I think I'll just do option A, until I can get the box (option D).
I heard that the Mister Two electric pump is noisey?
and draws lots of amps...
Thanks!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
