EV Digest 5656
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BMS poll
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: found:94 chevy s10 us electricar truck
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Another car show
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: BMS poll
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: BMS poll
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: BMS poll
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Another car show
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Trying to understand shunt regs
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Oddball flooded NiCD found
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Replacement clutch question
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Time Delay Switch for Harley Davidson Needed
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Warning, Re: Oddball flooded NiCD found
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: help with layout
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BMS poll
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Another car show
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: BMS poll
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) re: help with layout
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Funky Optimas
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT re:WKTEC GM's Reply/Blog
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BMS poll
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Toyota Outlines RAV4 EV Policy
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BMS poll
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: BMS poll
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: OT re:WKTEC GM's Reply/Blog
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) TMS (Temp management system)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 16, 2006, at 11:20 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
For those that keep chiming in with the answers I'm looking for, thank
you for braving the distractions. I'm on vacation now and I'll stop the
poll maybe end of this week or so when I'm back.
I have 16 Orbital blue tops, each with a Mk2B Rudman regulator,
connected to a PFC-20 charger.
I had Rich add a circuit to the PFC-20 that allows me to bring the
REGBUS low battery LED to the dashboard.
None of this is hooked up yet - the car's not finished, and probably
won't be until I am again gainfully employed :(
Oh yeah, I plan to try to build the LED matrix "fuel gauge" discussed
last month.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are the two cables going into the back of the cabin, between the
cab and the bed?
Mike
--- mike young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I decided to and just listed this battery less 94 s10 us electricar
> truck on
> ebay it is ebay auction # 330008592579 dont hesitate with questions
> Mike
> young
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Christopher Zach" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:46 AM
> Subject: Re: found:94 chevy s10 us electricar truck
>
>
> > As a friend of mine put it to me. "You spent $5k on an AC drive
> system
> > and got the truck thrown in for free."
> >
> > Truer words were never spoken.
> >
> > They have some weak spots that are being addressed. But are good
> > vehicles overall.
> >
> > We are here if you want USE help.
> >
> > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/messages
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> mike young wrote:
> >> > Hi everybody, I just located and will be picking up a 94 s10
> very
> > clean
> >> > body top to bottom and underneath and has been sitting for a
> > couple yrs
> >> > so will need work but it looks complete.It says hughes vector on
> the
> >> > controller under the hood.I am just wondering if it is
> interesting to
> >> > anybody on the list.Email with phone # and i can call you or
> email
> > if u
> >> > want to make a deal.I think it will be around $3000.It will be
> the
> > end
> >> > of the wk before I pick it up.the thing has like 6000 miles on
> the
> >> > odometer and it looks it. I live in upstate New York. I would
> love to
> >> > keep it but I have enough ev's now to outfit the family with 4
> > solectria
> >> > force cars plus bob rices parts solectria car I am thankful
> for.As
> > for
> >> > the 94 belt drive solectria force I just got the gearbox back
> from
> > the
> >> > machine shop after they installed all new gears and bearings of
> their
> >> > design.It happily runs and drives again. let me know what you
> guys
> > think
> >> > about this Us electricar s10 pickup. Thanks Mike young
> >>
> >> Yep, US Electricar truck. Just to let people know, we have been
> making
> >> serious strides towards getting these things fully operational.
> Between
> >> Mike, Andy, and myself we can fix a lot of the problems that have
> > popped up.
> >>
> >> Just don't rip out the controller and motor; it's nicer than you
> think.
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I took my '61 Corvair Rampside pick up truck,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/656 to a big car
show in Glendale, CA yesterday. I got there around
5:00 and the show ended at 10:30. From the time I
lifted the battery cover until the show ended I was
surrounded by people, answering questions
continuously. I was amazed by all the attention my
little electric truck was getting among all the
classic muscle cars that were on display. My handouts
were gone in less than 2 hours. One handout details my
truck and has links to the EV album, NEDRA and some of
the parts and conversion kit suppliers. The other one
does a operating cost comparison between a conversion
and an ICE.
I had at least a dozen people ask me if I was
doing conversions or if I could convert their car for
them. I gave them the URL for Left Coast Conversions,
I'll have to add than one to my hand out. Hey Gadget,
do I get a finders fee for referrals? ;-) Seriously,
if you have an electric, take it to the "regular" car
shows, it's a great way to expose people to EVs. Just
be prepared to talk allot. People were asking me about
range, charge time, battery life, regenerative
braking, and even a few generators on the wheel
questions.
Quite a few people were aware of WKTEC and asked
me about it as well. I told them it was an excellent
movie and they should see it for themselves. All and
all a fun filled evening, even if I didn't get any
awards this time.
TiM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Totally acceptable! Good luck on the job hunt. I get that.
Mike
--- Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jul 16, 2006, at 11:20 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> > For those that keep chiming in with the answers I'm looking for,
> thank
> > you for braving the distractions. I'm on vacation now and I'll stop
> the
> > poll maybe end of this week or so when I'm back.
>
> I have 16 Orbital blue tops, each with a Mk2B Rudman regulator,
> connected to a PFC-20 charger.
>
> I had Rich add a circuit to the PFC-20 that allows me to bring the
> REGBUS low battery LED to the dashboard.
>
> None of this is hooked up yet - the car's not finished, and probably
> won't be until I am again gainfully employed :(
>
> Oh yeah, I plan to try to build the LED matrix "fuel gauge" discussed
>
> last month.
>
> >
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
> Steve Condie wrote:
> > This is Mike's poll. He defined his terms adequately.
>
>"BMS" is not *his* term to define.
Who are you to tell Mike what he can ask?
He addressed the subject maybe a bit generally by phrasing it
a BMS poll, which is a larger field than his actual question
but he correctly narrowed down the actual issue by a definition
that was clear - who are charging in a particular way.
I know why he is asking that and I do not understand why you
are attacking him on a subject line that you feel is too broad.
Many a post here is sailing under a subject line that has nothing
to do with the text in the message, while this one is clearly and
correctly summarized with the adequate nr of words in the subject
(2). He made a statement earlier that he suspects that the vast
majority of EVs do not use any kind of BMS, not even during
charging. I know that Mike has a particular interest in balancing
his packs, because he lost too much money in packs that did go
bad way too soon. He wants to get statistical data and share his
knowledge, to help further the EV cause.
Most of us are on this list to not only learn but also to contribute
and share their experience - good and bad, so that we do not ahev
to repeat all those mistakes ourselves, but we can benefit from
other's experience and share what worked for us and if we detect a
trend in "what worked for me and you and you...." then we can see
if this is a general solution and add it to our knowledge that this
works and we better include it in every EV if you want to make it
work and last.
AGMs are not a very well understood battery technology, in particular
how to get a very long life out of them.
US Electricar designed the battery pack with two strings and no BMS.
Experience is that their packs die at about 1/4 of the expected
lifetime and we have some stake in getting to the root cause, the
suspect is that the lack of BMS and the fact that AGMs are not very
capable of equalizing through over-charging is putting those packs
between a rock and a hard place without BMS.
Mike has the conviction that a BMS will solve this, even if it is
a partial solution like a charge limiter as for example the zener
regs from Lee.
That is why he asked that question.
Chris is already providing the initial indication that his pack is
way better than it was before he put the zeners on, apparently the
balance is being restored in his previously tired Prizm pack.
I am currently running down another path - instead of two strings
my truck has one string of almost triple capacity batteries and
we will see how that fares in comparison with the OEM setup.
Currently I do not have any BMS on these batteries, I infrequently
measure the voltages on all batteries that I can reach to see if
they are showing signs of drifting apart.
For now, they seem to stay real close together.
I do not know if that is because these large batteries do not
heat up quickly, or that there are no current-sharing problems
(I do not need a BMS to balance the load currents nor can the
charging be uneven between strings, as there is only one string)
As soon as I detect that my batteries are drifting to different
voltages, then I will start using at least some kind of charge
regulator to push the batteries to the same voltage during
charge. Maybe I will include a low voltage detect (Mike has a
real neat device for that) so I can install an idiot-light and
allow others to drive this truck.
There will always be a number of techies like myself who know
(or think they know) what is going on, so they do not want the
automated systems (like BMS) and prefer to do everything by
hand and stay in control.
There is a reason that I do my tire rotations myself and change
the fluids in the cars myself and installed my batteries and pump
my tires by hand (or foot) ....
But for unattended, long-life operation in the hands of untrained
and unaware users, you better have a way to balance and protect the
batteries or they die an early death.
Charging regulators for individual batteries is about the minimum
you need even for people in the know of when to stop pulling the
batteries lower and when and how to charge them.
As I said - when I detect that my batteries are starting to drift
apart, then even I will *want* to have a BMS to avoid killing my
pack.
I see it as an interesting data-point how long the pack stays balanced
without individual regulation, this may be another indication of what
you can and what you can't do to AGMs.
Maybe they naturally stay together (when they were balanced or closely
matched initially) for the first 100 full cycles, before moving away
from each other. That would be consistent with the US Electricar
packs dying between 5000 and 7000 miles.
Mike, summarizing: I have no BMS, not even in your definition.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To those who wish to conduct a poll, instead of asking for answers on the
list, may I suggest using this resource :
http://www.surveymonkey.com/
It allows one to just announce the survey on the list, then refer
respondents to the website to fill out the form. This allows for fairly
rigorous enforcement of whatever conditions you want for your survey. I
believe you can ask up to 10 questions and accept up to 100 responses on a
free survey, and last I checked there was (remarkably) no advertising.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
Good job getting the word out however people will hear it. Out of couriosity,
can you guage about how many people attended, 200,
1K, 10K? And how many handouts did you bring?
I'm planning to exhibit at the Alaska Renewable Energy Fair in about a month
with an expected turnout of 2000. I have some color
copies of info on my conversion as well as sets of all six of the EV
Information flyers posted on the EAA website. I have 30
color copies for first come first serve but I plan to have at least that in B&W
for late comers. What I may do is put out the B&W
copies for grabs and give the color copies to the REAL interested parties; like
ones that sound like they will convert to EV or
join a local EAA chapter. The show is noon to 10pm but I'll probably call it
quits around 4pm or so.
I also have several old laptops that are good for running continuous slide
shows. I'm going to have one running a Powerpoint of
my conversion and one running EV videos. Needless to say I've come across many
videos of a racing theme :-) A few news reports
and several 1 on 1 interviews with owners. (Yes also the WrightSpeed and
FutureCrush videos :-)
Any comments on setting up a good exhibit would be greatly appreciated. Its
Fortuitous enough WKTEC opens on the 8th of August
here in Anchorage and the AREF Fair is on the 12th.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of TiM M
> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 9:49 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Another car show
>
>
> I took my '61 Corvair Rampside pick up truck,
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/656 to a big car
> show in Glendale, CA yesterday. I got there around
> 5:00 and the show ended at 10:30. From the time I
> lifted the battery cover until the show ended I was
> surrounded by people, answering questions
> continuously. I was amazed by all the attention my
> little electric truck was getting among all the
> classic muscle cars that were on display. My handouts
> were gone in less than 2 hours. One handout details my
> truck and has links to the EV album, NEDRA and some of
> the parts and conversion kit suppliers. The other one
> does a operating cost comparison between a conversion
> and an ICE.
> I had at least a dozen people ask me if I was
> doing conversions or if I could convert their car for
> them. I gave them the URL for Left Coast Conversions,
> I'll have to add than one to my hand out. Hey Gadget,
> do I get a finders fee for referrals? ;-) Seriously,
> if you have an electric, take it to the "regular" car
> shows, it's a great way to expose people to EVs. Just
> be prepared to talk allot. People were asking me about
> range, charge time, battery life, regenerative
> braking, and even a few generators on the wheel
> questions.
> Quite a few people were aware of WKTEC and asked
> me about it as well. I told them it was an excellent
> movie and they should see it for themselves. All and
> all a fun filled evening, even if I didn't get any
> awards this time.
>
> TiM
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah I could already figure a typical zener NTC isn't likely to provide
significant latching. I was just throwing it out there. It seems like
a NTC would do no harm at all to the behavior, perhaps with a different
part selection or a circuit change the NTC could be exaggerated to make
this principle more pronounced so it is more useful at terminating stage 2.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Say we want a constant voltage phase of 2.4v/cell... once the
current drops below a set point, go to a lower or zero charge...
The biggest problem is [snip]
I think you are over-analyzing it. An actual battery, and its
interactions with an actual charger and actual regulator are so complex
that simplified theory won't get you very far. You have to actually set
it up and watch what happens.
Yes, a shunt regulator with a negative temperature coefficient tends to
"latch on" when it reaches its threshold. However, the effect is very
mild and it happens very slowly. I saw this with two 6.2v zeners. At a
constant 1 amp charge rate, the battery voltage s-l-o-w-l-y rose to
about 14v, and then s-l-o-w-l-y drifted back down, over many hours.
And, these zener-lamp regulators basically won't burn out unless your
charger gets 'stuck' delivering some high current forever. It could
still happen, but it's more likely that the battery will overheat and
vent first.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hahaha - it is *flooded*.
Even if it fits in the US Electricar's battery box under the
cabin and 2 rows stacked under the bed, how are you going to
water it? Is there an automatic watering setup?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Oddball flooded NiCD found
Can't wait to find out where it's from. Is it shorter than 7 inches
tall?
Mike
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While dropping things off at the recycling center today I took a
> quick
> look at the battery recycling pile. Normally just starting batteries
> and
> the like, but today I saw something different: A battery with 5 cell
> caps and steel interconnects.
>
> Flooded NiCD. There was only one, and it looks to be a 6 volter. I
> grabbed it, stuck it in the car and took it home. The only thing on
> it
> is MEP-3, along with a min-max water level. All cells report 1.2
> volts,
> will try load testing it tomorrow. I'm guessing it's fine.
>
> Any idea what it came from, and if they might work as flooded NiCDs?
> It
> feels lighter than the BB600's, bigger, maybe it came from a
> emergency
> lamp or something that would stay on float.
>
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I planned on demonstrating acceleration so I went all out and got a
tilton clutch. I can say I went a little bonkers and got a sintered
metal 5.5" triple plate when a 7" dual plate would of been easier to
install. This puppy doesn't slip under Max acceleration in a 4050lb EV.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00071.jpg
Mike is correct in that if I had to slip the clutch from a stop like
normal, this clutch wouldn't work. (racers dump it, slipping the tires,
then back out of the throttle until the tires hook up) Indeed, the first
couple of times shifting 2nd to 3rd "rang" the driveline. What I am
relly getting at is an endorsement for the ceramic or sintered metal
type clutch, high grab but you can't slip it fits well with an EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are all kinds of time delay relays that plug into those standard 8
pin socket bases. Perhaps one could be retrofited with a standard switch
to emulate the special switch?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike, Chris and All,
While finding free ni-cads sounds great,
beware as many ones you find are for low current UPS duties
and not good for EV use.
Before accepting any, check on the make, model
to see if it's a high output type. Also check and see if
there is white crust forming in it's if more than a little,
don't take them.
A major reason is cost to dispose of them if
they are incorrect or bad cells which can be high.
If SAFT, you can just send them to them in Ga
and they will recycle or rebuild them for you.
If you follow this, you can find some great
EV batteries that work even in low temps like the 90 cells,
90% good ones, that were given me by a battery shop that
dispite being 25 yrs old, still put out over rated power.
Many shops like to give these away free so they don't have
to pay for recycling but beware and be selective.
If I was in Alaska, Canada, some northern
states, I'd pick ni-cads and pay the money as in winter,
they outperform lead batts by about 3 times. Add to that a
20+ yr life and for those areas, ni-cads are more than cost
effective.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Oddball flooded NiCD found
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
>Can't wait to find out where it's from. Is it shorter than
>7 inches tall?
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> While dropping things off at the recycling center today I
>> took a quick
>> look at the battery recycling pile. Normally just
>> starting batteries and
>> the like, but today I saw something different: A battery
>> with 5 cell caps and steel interconnects.
>>
>> Flooded NiCD. There was only one, and it looks to be a 6
>> volter. I grabbed it, stuck it in the car and took it
>> home. The only thing on it
>> is MEP-3, along with a min-max water level. All cells
>> report 1.2 volts,
>> will try load testing it tomorrow. I'm guessing it's
>> fine.
>> Any idea what it came from, and if they might work as
>> flooded NiCDs? It
>> feels lighter than the BB600's, bigger, maybe it came
>> from a emergency
>> lamp or something that would stay on float.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those black cables near the bottom right of the
Zilla are part of your shift linkage
http://www.davesevs.com/IMG_0008.JPG
I had a V6 Fiero and my shift cable would loosen
up at the connection on the transmission making
it very difficult to get in any gear. I carried
a wrench with me and tightened this cable making it
shift well for another month or two until it loosened
up again. Perhaps your linkage just needs adjustment.
There is about 1" of adjustment range I think. Try a
few different settings and see if it helps.
Rod
--- David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I realize this is a bit like playing with fire, but
> I'd like to know
> how others have arranged the batteries in the engine
> bay section of
> Fieros, and how they designed the rack. I've looked
> at the album, and
> the details I need are a bit lacking. I need to
> place 2-3 PS-121000
> batteries (www.power-sonic.com) in a rack in this
> area and still have
> room for a PFC-20 somewhere. Unfortunately, there's
> not a lot of room
> with the decklid supports coming down and all the
> other stuff in the
> area. Probably have to settle for 2, but I would
> still like to make
> the rack as big as possible. Here's links to pics
> of mine right now.
>
> http://www.davesevs.com/IMG_0006.JPG
> http://www.davesevs.com/IMG_0007.JPG
> http://www.davesevs.com/IMG_0008.JPG
> http://www.davesevs.com/IMG_0009.JPG
>
> (Yes, I will be making covers for the controller,
> hairball, shunt,
> etc.)
>
> I've got racks built for the center tunnel, the
> front, and the trunk
> area, but how to build something relatively light to
> go over the motor
> is a tough one. There's only structure to connect
> to on 3 sides, and
> one of those will have to be built up. The forward
> wall isn't
> straight, and it is quite difficult to get to to
> install supports.
>
> The RH area between the firewall and the shock tower
> holds the aux.
> battery right now, and has space to add the DC-DC,
> so the rack can't
> encroach on that area.
>
> Also, I'm having shifting trouble with this
> transmission ('86 Gt, 4
> speed), and can't find anything in the online tech
> guides or my factory
> service manual about it. It won't stay in reverse,
> and is quite
> difficult to move the lever in the left-right
> directions. Any advice?
>
> David Brandt
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First, a word on the meta-thread (i.e. what do you mean by "BMS"?)--
Mike Phillips wrote:
You've gone way past hijacking this thread Roger. But then again, I
expected it. I am asking you to no longer post in this thread, for any
reason.
Roger is an engineer. Engineers like to see their terms defined. If not
precise and concise, then at least with some discernible boundaries.
Engineers will accept your terms, if you adequately define them. (IMHO,
the list could be divided into two groups, Mechanics and Engineers, and
most of the meta-threads are simple communication problems between the
two philosophies). Following this thread, I still have little idea of
what anybody means by BMS anymore.
Asking Roger to Keep Out, considering his expertise, is like telling
Wayland et al to mind their beeswax while you discuss high performance
and drag racing EVs.
That being said, on to the nebulous poll--
I *think* I have what someone might qualify as a BMS.
My 24 modules (gel SLA) are connected in series, but separated into a
pair of 144v sub-strings, which are brought together with relays (under
the control of a CPU, in a black box called a BCU by the designer). The
two battery boxes have three temp sensors each, along with a muffin fan,
separate relays for charge access (which also has a diode/resistor block
and a 30a fuse inlined), as well as 26 inter-module taps. Each box is
fused (350a) on the mains, while the inter-module taps have 10a inlined
fuses (on 16 gauge). (I think the inter-module taps qualify my system as
a BMS under the Phillips definition. They are utilized by the BCU for
equalization and balancing).
This system was designed and manufactured by PEI Electronics of Alabama,
and includes drive-disable and charge-control, various interlocks. It
does not provide any over-discharge protection, leaving that to the
Solectria inverter/controllers. And, even though this PEI BCU works (to
an extent) it is also frustrating, because it keeps most of its
measurements and control as a "black box"-- hardly any instrumentation.
I get a simple analog SOC gauge, a "Batt Temp" tell-tale lamp, an "On
Charge" lamp, and a "BCU fault" lamp.
I am in the process of interjecting myself between my black box BMS and
my battery-strings, as I want/need access to all that hidden data...
Because, ultimately, I want to think of myself as the BMS.
Wait.
I'm sorry. Was I only supposed to answer Yes or No?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey that sounds great I have taken a solectria force out to a couple shows
with the same result. could you send a copy of the operation comparison
handout I would love to hand them out as well. mike young
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 1:48 AM
Subject: Another car show
I took my '61 Corvair Rampside pick up truck,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/656 to a big car
show in Glendale, CA yesterday. I got there around
5:00 and the show ended at 10:30. From the time I
lifted the battery cover until the show ended I was
surrounded by people, answering questions
continuously. I was amazed by all the attention my
little electric truck was getting among all the
classic muscle cars that were on display. My handouts
were gone in less than 2 hours. One handout details my
truck and has links to the EV album, NEDRA and some of
the parts and conversion kit suppliers. The other one
does a operating cost comparison between a conversion
and an ICE.
I had at least a dozen people ask me if I was
doing conversions or if I could convert their car for
them. I gave them the URL for Left Coast Conversions,
I'll have to add than one to my hand out. Hey Gadget,
do I get a finders fee for referrals? ;-) Seriously,
if you have an electric, take it to the "regular" car
shows, it's a great way to expose people to EVs. Just
be prepared to talk allot. People were asking me about
range, charge time, battery life, regenerative
braking, and even a few generators on the wheel
questions.
Quite a few people were aware of WKTEC and asked
me about it as well. I told them it was an excellent
movie and they should see it for themselves. All and
all a fun filled evening, even if I didn't get any
awards this time.
TiM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks David. That is an option.
Everytime someone asks a question they are polling for an answer from
many sources. What I have done is no different. The difference is that
the thread is being trashed and there is no protection for that. Don't
you think Roger is out of line here? Should he not hear from you as the
list admin??
Mike
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To those who wish to conduct a poll, instead of asking for answers on
> the
> list, may I suggest using this resource :
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/
>
> It allows one to just announce the survey on the list, then refer
> respondents to the website to fill out the form. This allows for
> fairly
> rigorous enforcement of whatever conditions you want for your survey.
> I
> believe you can ask up to 10 questions and accept up to 100 responses
> on a
> free survey, and last I checked there was (remarkably) no
> advertising.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
>
> To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
in response to Roland's response:
Thanks, Roland, but those pictures are of the BACK of the car! :-O
A Fiero is mid-engined. The little wall you can see closer to the camera that
looks like it divides off a radiator space is actually the trunk (such as it
is). The firewall is actually behind the driver.
I've got a lower and upper rack to go into the trunk, attached to the frame,
and two levels of racks to go into the front, and I have room in the motor bay
for a few more, but the design of a rack for this area is a sticking point.
Cutting should be done judiciously in this car, as it is a spaceframe
construction. fortunately, in front, removing the radiator and AC condensor
revealed a LOT more room for the front racks, as you mentioned. No cutting was
required.
Thanks for the transmission advice. I'll be able to do this in phase II of the
conversion, where I drop the motor cradle to replace the cradle bushings. this
will be done shortly after I get it on the road.
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to be having a couple of problems with my battery pack. The
pack is 156v using 13 pairs of Optima Yellow Tops. I have a Mk2B
regulator on each pair, and the REGBUS networked together to a PFC20
charger. I tend to charge at a rate of 6-7 amps due to problem 2.
Problem 1:
I did an equalization charge Friday evening, using the "two amps for an
hour" method. At about 45 minutes into the charge I noticed one battery
hissing in the firewall box. I checked the rest and found a second
hissing battery in the trunk. I stopped the charge at that point.
Then I ran some errands in the car and recharged it. I had to leave
before the charge finished, and when I got home I noticed the E-Meter
LED wasn't blinking so I restarted the charger. Soon after starting
the charger I noticed the regs on the two pairs with hissing batteries
start blinking. A while later these two batteries were hissing again.
One sounded like a Geiger counter and the other more like a tsk-tsk-tsk.
No other batteries were hissing even though most of the regs were
blinking.
Problem 2:
Two other pairs seemed to be lagging constantly. They were stuck at
about 14.3v while the rest of the batteries were at about 14.68v. These
two pairs have always lagged behind like this. If I charge at a higher
rate, one or both of these pairs will reach the reg setpoint before the
rest of the pack, but the voltage will drop off when the current tapers
down. I've tried connecting an isolated charger to these pairs for a
while but it doesn't make any difference (even if I just let these two
chargers run for an hour or so with the main charger off).
Any thoughts?
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
I've watched this list to see who has BMS in any form. 3% is being
generous. I could be wrong ;)
Do you have any contrary data or observations about BMS's on our list?
Honestly, I don't have any idea. That 3% just sounded so official!
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ProEV's Electric Imp is running a variation on Lee Hart's Battery Balancer
on our Kokam lithium polymer cells.
Relays connect the DAQ system to each cell one at a time reading voltage.
Then, on charge, the software decides either to connect the highest cell to
a resistor or the lowest cell to a isolated DC/DC (12 volt to 4.2 volt)
converter for a timed boost.
While driving, the BMS watches for low voltage and uses the DC/DC to boost
the lowest cell.
It's easy enough to find out from the list admin how many people are on
this list.
This is a little fuzzy because some people on the list do not (yet?) have an
EV and many listmembers have more than one (it's an addiction?).
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See this article at GreenCarCongress.com for a 6 July story on RAV4-EVs ...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/07/toyota_outlines.html
Toyota recently outlined its policy to keep RAV4 EVs in service for as
long as they are sustainable. Toyota was preparing in 2005 to crush
the remaining RAV4-EVs coming off of lease, but yielded to a campaign
launched by DontCrush.Com to keep the EVs on the road.
:
The company now says that it is committed to keeping environmentally-
advanced vehicles on the road as long as they are safe and it is
practical to do so.
The RAV4 EV policy includes the following points:
* RAV4 EVs are not being removed from service based solely on
age or lease expiration.
:
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> First, a word on the meta-thread (i.e. what do you mean by "BMS"?)--
I defined it in the first post of this thread. See how many people got
it and answered acordingly?
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > You've gone way past hijacking this thread Roger. But then again, I
> > expected it. I am asking you to no longer post in this thread, for
> any
> > reason.
>
> Roger is an engineer. Engineers like to see their terms defined. If
> not
> precise and concise, then at least with some discernible boundaries.
> Engineers will accept your terms, if you adequately define them.
> (IMHO,
> the list could be divided into two groups, Mechanics and Engineers,
> and
> most of the meta-threads are simple communication problems between
> the
> two philosophies).
Lots of us are in Engineering, but were still able to answer this
simple poll.
Following this thread, I still have little idea of
>
> what anybody means by BMS anymore.
Then you may learn something from this poll.
>
> Asking Roger to Keep Out, considering his expertise, is like telling
> Wayland et al to mind their beeswax while you discuss high
> performance
> and drag racing EVs.
Expertise and Ego are sometimes not separable.
>
> That being said, on to the nebulous poll--
>
> I *think* I have what someone might qualify as a BMS.
>
> My 24 modules (gel SLA) are connected in series, but separated into a
>
> pair of 144v sub-strings, which are brought together with relays
> (under
> the control of a CPU, in a black box called a BCU by the designer).
> The
> two battery boxes have three temp sensors each, along with a muffin
> fan,
> separate relays for charge access (which also has a diode/resistor
> block
> and a 30a fuse inlined), as well as 26 inter-module taps. Each box is
>
> fused (350a) on the mains, while the inter-module taps have 10a
> inlined
> fuses (on 16 gauge). (I think the inter-module taps qualify my system
> as
> a BMS under the Phillips definition. They are utilized by the BCU for
>
> equalization and balancing).
>
> This system was designed and manufactured by PEI Electronics of
> Alabama,
> and includes drive-disable and charge-control, various interlocks. It
>
> does not provide any over-discharge protection, leaving that to the
> Solectria inverter/controllers. And, even though this PEI BCU works
> (to
> an extent) it is also frustrating, because it keeps most of its
> measurements and control as a "black box"-- hardly any
> instrumentation.
> I get a simple analog SOC gauge, a "Batt Temp" tell-tale lamp, an "On
>
> Charge" lamp, and a "BCU fault" lamp.
>
> I am in the process of interjecting myself between my black box BMS
> and
> my battery-strings, as I want/need access to all that hidden data...
>
> Because, ultimately, I want to think of myself as the BMS.
>
> Wait.
>
> I'm sorry. Was I only supposed to answer Yes or No?
So does the BCU actually clamp or regulate current into each battery?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are correct, the one thing that needs work is that some folks have
more than one vehicle. This thread defines it as a personell count not
a machine count. I'll look into that when it closes.
Mike
--- ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ProEV's Electric Imp is running a variation on Lee Hart's Battery
> Balancer
> on our Kokam lithium polymer cells.
>
> Relays connect the DAQ system to each cell one at a time reading
> voltage.
> Then, on charge, the software decides either to connect the highest
> cell to
> a resistor or the lowest cell to a isolated DC/DC (12 volt to 4.2
> volt)
> converter for a timed boost.
>
> While driving, the BMS watches for low voltage and uses the DC/DC to
> boost
> the lowest cell.
I really like this concept. I see how it it related to Lee's. Is it
custom made? Commercial? Is it documented anywhere? How many cells is
this system watching?
>
> > It's easy enough to find out from the list admin how many people
> are on
> > this list.
>
> This is a little fuzzy because some people on the list do not (yet?)
> have an
> EV and many listmembers have more than one (it's an addiction?).
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
Thanks!
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You never know. It may become the official outcome of the poll. I hope
not.
Mike
--- ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
>
>
> > I've watched this list to see who has BMS in any form. 3% is being
> > generous. I could be wrong ;)
> >
> > Do you have any contrary data or observations about BMS's on our
> list?
>
>
> Honestly, I don't have any idea. That 3% just sounded so official!
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With the temps out here in MD set to exceed 100 degrees today I'm pretty
glad that the MagneCharger on the Prizm has temp compensation and will
be slowing down the charge rate.
If you don't have temp management you might want to recalibrate your
charger. It's *hot*
As a side note I have noticed that if I try to charge my Aprilia Enjoy
bike (24 volt, 14ah NiMH pack) outside after a run in the heat the
charger will trip out with the pack only half full. If I take the pack
inside, let it sit for an hour or two to cool off, then charge it will
take a full charge.
The really interesting thing will be to see what happens to the BB600's
in this sort of heat.
Chris
--- End Message ---
