EV Digest 5657
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Toyota Outlines RAV4 EV Policy
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Gravely tractor conversion
by JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: found:94 chevy s10 us electricar truck
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: BMS poll
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BMS poll
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Another car show
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BMS poll
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: BMS poll
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BMS poll
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BMS poll
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Supplying AC power supply with DC, for beginners
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: TMS (Temp management system)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Funky Optimas
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: help with layout
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BMS poll
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: TMS (Temp management system)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BMS Poll
by Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Gravely tractor conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: BMS poll
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Funky Optimas
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: BMS poll
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Another car show
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Another car show
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Supplying AC power supply with DC, for beginners
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Want to buy- Straubel Battery Monitor
by Sid & Mari Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) high current stud fuse
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Supplying AC power supply with DC, for beginners
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
They also made an announcement that Toyota will participate in
recycling Rav4 parts where they can.
Mike
--- M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> See this article at GreenCarCongress.com for a 6 July story on
> RAV4-EVs ...
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/07/toyota_outlines.html
>
> Toyota recently outlined its policy to keep RAV4 EVs in service for
> as
> long as they are sustainable. Toyota was preparing in 2005 to crush
> the remaining RAV4-EVs coming off of lease, but yielded to a
> campaign
> launched by DontCrush.Com to keep the EVs on the road.
> :
> The company now says that it is committed to keeping
> environmentally-
> advanced vehicles on the road as long as they are safe and it is
> practical to do so.
>
> The RAV4 EV policy includes the following points:
> * RAV4 EVs are not being removed from service based solely on
> age or lease expiration.
> :
>
> --
> Mike Bianchi
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: John
During the process of converting my truck (over the past 2 years or
so) I have been discussing the project with my brother who is a
"Gravely Tractor Fanatic". It seems that my incessant suggestions of
converting anything and everything to electric has piqued his
interest, and the possibility of a quite tractor sealed the deal for
my sister-in-law.
Checking the EVAlbum, I don't see any gravely or other walk behind
conversions to use as models.
From the brief discussions I have had with my brother it seems the
gravely requires a constant RPM. Does this represent a significant
issue?
John
============
Hi John,
Not an EV specialist, but for constant RPM use PM motors for example.
I think shunt wound motors are also constant RPM.
JCT proud owner of a Sears converted E-garden tractor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
What are the two cables going into the back of the cabin, between the
cab and the bed?
I think they are water drains or something; they don't seem to go
anywhere or have anything in them.
This truck looks to be from the same batch as my truck. Well except that
it's cleaner wiring-wise. And it doesn't look like someone ate the
front. And so forth...
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lets see...
Do I count for 3 EVs with BMSs.
Goldie has a set of MK2Bs with a early PFC30
On 13 batteries of 4 year old Exide XCDs
Fiero has the first set of MK3 digi Regs, and is off board charged, With
anything available charger.
IT HAS TO have a BMS for charge feed back.
15 New But factory Seconds Exide Blue tops.
The PiPrius pack has a full set that now work as planned.
But won't wake up as planned...Grrr!
15, Year old Hawker Aero Batteries from Wayland's White Zombie, Courtesy of
Dick Brown at Hawker Areo.
So.. Do I have a BMS... yes and I am making more each day..
Is a Stack of Regs a real BMS?
Well that depends on your definition of What a BMS does.
I the case of the Mk3 Digi regs with the PHEV code in them, they control the
over voltage and the undervoltage of the battery. You can read all voltages
and set points and reset them as you wish.
You can read the temperatures on the heatsinks and the local battery
temperature.
In testing I have charged and equalized the pack, then discharged down to
the low battery limit programmed into the Regs Lowsettings. So.. I do think
this is a real BMS.
Adding code from a PC or Basic reading anything, that scans the Regs and can
control the Regs setting and by way of the RegBuss adjust the charger's
output...would just be icing on the cake that is already up and running.
Also I do sell this system..So... I am going to keep improving it and
chasing the feature set that my customers want. Right now it's being built
to solve the issues I have with our current crop of AGMs.
I will have a Lion specific one available on months if not weeks.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 3:14 PM
Subject: BMS poll
> It's easy enough to find out from the list admin how many people are on
> this list. So I thought a poll is appropriate to see how many have
> something attached to each battery that is active in managing the
> battery pack. One charger per battery counts. Having a fancy charger
> alone does not count.
>
> So how many folks on this last have bms on their battery pack?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
First, a word on the meta-thread (i.e. what do you mean by "BMS"?)--
I defined it in the first post of this thread. See how many people got
it and answered acordingly?
"how many have something attached to each battery that is active in
managing the battery pack".
Yes, BMS is now defined: Battery Management Something.
So does the BCU actually clamp or regulate current into each battery?
No. I think it provides an equalization charge to individual modules,
after bulk-charging the entire string. The BCU was also designed to
control the bulk-charge via communication with an AVCON wall-unit, and
controls the onboard 10Kw bulk-charger. It is a black-box to me,
undocumented, which I am still reverse-engineering.
Regards,
Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Mike and All,
Mike Willmon wrote:
I'm planning to exhibit at the Alaska Renewable Energy Fair in about a month
with an expected turnout of 2000. Needless to say I've come across many videos
of a racing theme :-) ...Yes also the WrightSpeed video.
Mike, please don't show the 'skeleton' vehicle. Most people who see it
find the 'vehicle' (I won't call it a car) laughable...no roof, no
doors, no body sheet metal, no windows...come on, it's a joke. Then,
there's the funky suido drag race against full bodied exotic cars, where
they don't do it from a standing start (extremely important to display
acceleration capability), they don't use timing lights, and there's not
even a certifiable time slip. In my and respected EVers' opinions, this
campaign reeks of snake oil and is doing more to hurt the EV image than
it does to help it.
It's a great idea to show EVs outperforming gas cars, but why not show
folks fair contests? One that comes to mind readily is Rod Wilde's RX7
against a Dodge Viper:
Rod wrote:
>I did low twelve's with a passenger once in the "Maniac Mazda" at
Woodburn. It was Ryan Seacrest and we dusted off a Viper in the >other
lane. He will never forget that ride! his excitement was captured by a
camera mounted in the car.
This video is from a TV show that was called 'The New Edge' and is
available from Rod Wilde. Yes, Rod's car is definitely a racing prepped
version of a Mazda RX7, but at least it's a full bodied car everyone can
relate to. It cost far less to set up than the Dodge Viper it raced
against and handily beat. Unlike the skeleton 'thing', an RX7 has doors,
a roof, windows...well, it's a car! Seeing an RX7 with two guys in it,
beat a Viper with one guy in it, on an NHRA track, with timing lights
and even an ET slip shown to the camera, is VERY credible. The
Wrightspeed hype is anything but. Take the Ferrari and the Porsche they
cheated against, rip off their roofs and doors and body sheet metal, and
redo the race with timing lights from a dead stop, and the skeleton
vehicle would get blown away in fast order. Of course it would be more
appropriate to somehow take the skeleton and build it into a real car
with a full body. Then, redo the race contest...at least it will then,
have doors to be blown off.
Another video that comes to mind is footage of a stock EV1 out
accelerating from a dead stop against a stock Nissan Z Car, a stock
Mazda Miata, and another vehicle. Though there are no timing lights,
it's done in a fair manner from a dead stop, and all the cars are
recognizable vehicles.
The only thing showing the skeleton 'thing' racing against exotic cars
proves to the common car person, is that an EV has to cheat in an uneven
playing field in order to beat a gas car...that's horribly bad PR for EVs.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ROGER!!!
----- Original Message -----
> In this context, examples of systems that might be considered BMS's
> include the Zivan Smoother and Lee Hart Balancer, and perhaps the
> Powercheqs. Examples of systems that would not count as BMS's include
> Lee's Zener regs, Rudman regs, or the use of individual chargers.
You are just NOT getting it are you???
The Rudman Mk3 Regs while hooked to the charger, Fit the enitre Bill as a
active Battery management sytem.
Maybe you have not seen the system work Few have. But I think I have made
it's abilities rather clear.
Also... a BMS should be anything that helps the battery that is not just a
simple charger.
It should be defined as a system that protects every battery inside the
string. And can move charge around a pack.
It should also keep a battery from over voltage events durning charge and
under voltage events during discharge.
The rest I am trying to keep as broad as possible to let other concepts
besides mine dominate the argument.
OK.. now we see the real question....
You are plugging your product as a way of not needing a BMS at all..
The Smart chargers line... gives it all way.
Now I know your angle.. You think you can have a really smart end of charge
wave form that can repalce any BMS.
Umm nice idea....
I don't think it's going to work for Everybody.
I fail to see how charging intellegence in any form can reach down a battery
pack and add or subtract significant amp hours from Cells or single
batteries.
No matter what you do.. it will still be a controlled over charge of some
sort.
No matter what you do.. a single end of charge wave from, negative or
positve, or what ever will not be optimal for every battery in the string.
Gone are the days of Dumb flooded lead acid.. and a watering system.
For those that can use this technology.. Great.. it's getting pretty well
supported after a 150 years of use.
The BMS is more of a forced idea, that you assume the pack is going to miss
behave and then take steps to force the pack into alignment.
As long as the BMS can keep the pack from getting hurt and fill in the
equalization "holes" a BMS is sufficient for the purposes.
What makes sense is your end of charge algorythm..talored to each batteries.
specific needs or deficientcies. Now THAT I would buy!
I might call that a BMS...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
>
> I think that unless the question is rephrased, the results of this poll
> would most accurately be interpreted as revealing how many on the list
> treat individual batteries differently during charge, or perhaps more
> generously, how many are using some sort of *charge* management system
> that treats individual batteries differently (as opposed to smart
> chargers that may be just as effective (or more), but do not treat
> individual batteries differently).
>
> While the results of the poll may be interesting, I think they are not
> particularly meaningful without having people also indicate if they are
> running lead-acid packs or not, and if their lead-acid packs are VRLA
> (gel or AGM) or not. It is fairly well recognised that flooded lead
> acid batteries are fairly tolerant of abuse and can deliver rated life
> without any BMS simply by not abusing them overly on charge or discharge
> and providing regular maintenance. I would suggest that the vast
> majority of those on this list are using flooded lead acid, and so a
> poll whose results indicated that only 5% of the list considers
> individual batteries while charging doesn't paint an accurate picture if
> 75% of the list are using batteries which don't actually benefit
> significantly from such treatment.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
:
>
> **"that more than 3% of the people driving EV's on this list have at
least a 2 stage charger, a charge timer or Regs/Balancers of
> some sort.
If not then they at least are aware to check the battery voltage and
temperature EVery so often while charging and
> turn them off when full. This is the most basic form of Battery
Management which if performed dilligently can be effective."**
Hear hear hear!!
Logic and common sense and d diligence ARE a rather good from of BMS.
Madman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: BMS poll
> I was plain the first time. But for those with doubts, let me clarify.
>
> If you have a Zreg BMS or better it qualifies as a BMS for this pole.
> This thread is not for debate or definition of a BMS. It's strictly
> for a head count.
>
> If folks want to debate what a BMS is, please start your own thread.
>
> Mike
>
>
ER.... got it.
Madman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:14:26 -0400, you wrote:
>First, a word on the meta-thread (i.e. what do you mean by "BMS"?)--
>
I have a Battery management system, a combination of attitudes,
opinions and components that keep me from murdering my batteries.
>Mike Phillips wrote:
>Roger is an engineer. Engineers like to see their terms defined. If not
>precise and concise, then at least with some discernible boundaries.
>Engineers will accept your terms, if you adequately define them. (IMHO,
>the list could be divided into two groups, Mechanics and Engineers, and
>most of the meta-threads are simple communication problems between the
>two philosophies). Following this thread, I still have little idea of
>what anybody means by BMS anymore.
>
Very good point! I am a mechanic and probably not a really good one
at that. I have very little Engineering training and most is self
taught. I AM a generalist. My major ideas for building on my EV are:
Use the KISS method (KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID). If you can buy it don't
build it. Try to keep the price down so my wife doesn't kill me.
>Asking Roger to Keep Out, considering his expertise, is like telling
>Wayland et al to mind their beeswax while you discuss high performance
>and drag racing EVs.
>
I have learned a lot lurking and listening to the Engineers discuss
and defend their ideas. I just try to filter out the Ego and get to
the gold at the bottom of my pan.
>That being said, on to the nebulous poll--
>
>I *think* I have what someone might qualify as a BMS.
>
I have an individual Schumacher SpeedCharge on each battery. It is a
small computer controlled, Isolated, AC power compensated charger able
to put out 12 amps. (for $25 more you can get 25 amps) It has a
different charge profile for automotive, deep-cycle, AGM and Gel
batteries. It also has a desulfate mode. With the push of a button
I can tell the percent of charge or the voltage of the battery on the
digital display. They are not perfect, yet they work for me and have
become my BMS. Later on when I migrate up to better more expensive
batteries, I will also install a powercheq unit on each.
That is just the hardware. Don't forget things like insulated
battery boxes, checking the H2O often, keeping the suckers clean, etc.
>
>
>Because, ultimately, I want to think of myself as the BMS.
That's me.
>
>Wait.
>
>I'm sorry. Was I only supposed to answer Yes or No?
>
Yes.
Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm just looking for the general rules on how to hook up an AC power supply to
DC. In particular
I'm trying to understand how to use a switching power supply as a DC-DC
converter.
For a standard 120vac power supply what DC voltages (what size pack) will it
run off of? Or how
would you determine this from it's specs? How about a power supply that runs
120/240?
Does polarity matter? Do you have to worry about where you connect the positive
or negative DC on
the AC input? Neutral or Hot?
Newbie dooby doo!
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:42 AM 7/17/2006, Christopher Zach wrote:
The really interesting thing will be to see what happens to the
BB600's in this sort of heat.
I found that they failed quite badly above 1000 degrees or so...
(kinda melted all over the place.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
Problem 1:
I did an equalization charge Friday evening, using the "two amps for an
hour" method. At about 45 minutes into the charge I noticed one battery
hissing in the firewall box. I checked the rest and found a second
hissing battery in the trunk. I stopped the charge at that point.
Are these batteries hot, or old? That would increase the likelihood of
them venting.
Can you load test them? If they have excessive voltage sag, they already
have some grid corrosion from excessive charging. The higher internal
resistance makes their voltage go higher during charge, which increases
gassing. You have to charge such batteries at a lower rate if you expect
to keep using them.
If you can, take them out and weigh them. If they are light, you'll need
to add water, charge them less aggressively (so their specific gravity
won't exceed 1.300), or replace them.
Then I ran some errands in the car and recharged it. I had to leave
before the charge finished, and when I got home I noticed the E-Meter
LED wasn't blinking so I restarted the charger. Soon after starting
the charger I noticed the regs on the two pairs with hissing batteries
start blinking. A while later these two batteries were hissing again.
If the E-meter didn't reset to "full" (blinking LED), then you failed to
meet one or more of the fully charged parameters. Do you know which one
it was?
Did the amphours fail to go positive? If so, something made the charger
shut off early. Maybe the voltage went too high, and it shut off?
Did the voltage fail to rise high enough? This might happen if the
batteries are hot, or you charged at too low a rate, or the regulators
are set low (or the E-meter set too high). What did you set the
E-meter's Charged Voltage to?
Did the current fail to fall low enough? Hot batteries, or too high an
end-of-charge current could do this.
Problem 2:
Two other pairs seemed to be lagging constantly. They were stuck at
about 14.3v while the rest of the batteries were at about 14.68v.
These two pairs have always lagged behind like this. If I charge at
a higher rate, one or both of these pairs will reach the reg setpoint
before the rest of the pack, but the voltage will drop off when the
current tapers down.
It sounds like these two batteries have a lower charge efficiency, so
they take more amphours to reach "full" than the others.
If charging them at a higher rate just makes them hit the reg setpoint
sooner, then they also have a higher internal resistance. You'd have to
do some load tests to see if they are still acceptable (just weaker); or
actually going bad.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
That's right, it is a mid engine design, something like my Manta Mirage. I
was going to made it a EV, but the only place I can place the batteries are in
the same area where the gas tanks were place, which is under the doors on both
sides of the car.
The problem is that this car weighs 1300 lbs and the battery weight would
increase the weight too much, unless I use 1200 D-Cell 4 AH Ni-Cad batteries
that was only available back in the 70's. The total weight would still be
about 2500 lbs.
I having my Manta customize and will not be out of the shop for about a year.
To see what these cars look like, just type into your search engine: Manta
Mirage.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: David Brandt<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDL<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:05 AM
Subject: re: help with layout
in response to Roland's response:
Thanks, Roland, but those pictures are of the BACK of the car! :-O
A Fiero is mid-engined. The little wall you can see closer to the camera
that looks like it divides off a radiator space is actually the trunk (such as
it is). The firewall is actually behind the driver.
I've got a lower and upper rack to go into the trunk, attached to the frame,
and two levels of racks to go into the front, and I have room in the motor bay
for a few more, but the design of a rack for this area is a sticking point.
Cutting should be done judiciously in this car, as it is a spaceframe
construction. fortunately, in front, removing the radiator and AC condensor
revealed a LOT more room for the front racks, as you mentioned. No cutting was
required.
Thanks for the transmission advice. I'll be able to do this in phase II of
the conversion, where I drop the motor cradle to replace the cradle bushings.
this will be done shortly after I get it on the road.
David Brandt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Lets see... Do I count for 3 EVs with BMSs.
Rich, I think you and I are in a special category. We design and build
BMS, and so have too many types, and too many variations of them to
easily count. It defies a simple answer.
I think Mike will just have to mark us down as, "yes; many" and let it
go at that! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: TMS (Temp management system)
> At 06:42 AM 7/17/2006, Christopher Zach wrote:
> >The really interesting thing will be to see what happens to the
> >BB600's in this sort of heat.
>
> I found that they failed quite badly above 1000 degrees or so...
> (kinda melted all over the place.)
>
I guess that would be a poor recommendation for Phoenix and Tuscon in
the summer<g>!Or So Cal in forrist fire season?
Seeya
Bob
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 1997 Solectria Force does not have BMS. It uses 13 Deka Dominator 12V AGM
batteries linked in series, charged by a Brusa BC3300.
Of the approx. 600 Solectria Forces manufactured, I believe only a handful
were made with a BMS. One system used was the Badicheq 3000 BMS, made by
Mentzer(website is www.de). They claim in their literature that the lifespan
of managed batteries increased by 30%.
So, in my case, I figure that if my batteries last 6 years without BMS and
7.8 years with BMS and the cost of 13 Deka is $2000.00, I save $77 per year
with the BMS. If my batteries only last 3 years without BMS, the savings is
$154 per year.
Hope this helps,
Todd Martin
Elgin, IL.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 7/17/06 7:13:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Gravely tractor conversion
Date: 7/17/06 7:13:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JCT)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
From: John
During the process of converting my truck (over the past 2 years or
so) I have been discussing the project with my brother who is a
"Gravely Tractor Fanatic". It seems that my incessant suggestions of
converting anything and everything to electric has piqued his
interest, and the possibility of a quite tractor sealed the deal for
my sister-in-law.
Checking the EVAlbum, I don't see any gravely or other walk behind
conversions to use as models.
From the brief discussions I have had with my brother it seems the
gravely requires a constant RPM. Does this represent a significant
issue?
John
============
Hi John,
Not an EV specialist, but for constant RPM use PM motors for example.
I think shunt wound motors are also constant RPM.
JCT proud owner of a Sears converted E-garden tracto >>
I converted a Sears lawn tractor as my 1st ev.Sears said it was made by
gravly.I used a aircraft starter gen.I could mow an acre in 25 minutes even
with
the grass 6 inches deep.The cut grass would blow out of the mower at least 25
feet.I used 3 checker deep cycle 12 volt batteries.It was scary to drive(could
pull the front tires off the ground)but I used it for 4 summers. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > So how many folks on this last have bms on their battery pack?
I have 18 Rudman Regs, a K & W charger and 18 Delphi 8v batteries. The
Good, the bad and the ugly. You decide which is which. Lawrence
Rhodes...longing for a better energy storge solution.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Jul 2006 at 10:35, Lee Hart wrote:
> It sounds like these two batteries have a lower charge efficiency, so
> they take more amphours to reach "full" than the others.
I wonder if maybe they just have low capacity. Can you run a capacity test
on the individual modules in the pack, and compare these with the average?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland. As I remember you have very specific rules and routines concerning
your battery's care. Could you please go over them to the group once again
or direct us to those former words of wisdom from you? I am assuming you
are using US Batteries. I'd like to know the model. Watering procedure.
Charge rate or any other information that will prolong the life of these
batteries. I know your usage is low & if this is one of the reason's you
have such long life from your batteries. It seems every aspect from bolt
torque to watering & charging procedure affects the life of a lead acid
battery. I have had mixed results from my flooded battery usage. Also if
you have ideas on picking a battery for more miles per day vs.few miles per
day. Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: BMS poll
> I have none, after 5 years, 30 of my T-145's are still in with 0.02 volts
of each other with over 20 in the 0.01 volt range. I am going for over 10
years to break my old record.
>
> If any one batteries get more than 0.04 volts from each other, than about
every six months, I will charge that one with a smart charger for about 1
minute.
>
> Roland
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Phillips<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:14 PM
> Subject: BMS poll
>
>
> It's easy enough to find out from the list admin how many people are on
> this list. So I thought a poll is appropriate to see how many have
> something attached to each battery that is active in managing the
> battery pack. One charger per battery counts. Having a fancy charger
> alone does not count.
>
> So how many folks on this last have bms on their battery pack?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com<http://www.rotordesign.com/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am considering registering for a local car show that will be taking place in
the Austin, TX area July 29 http://www.samuelsjewelers.com/carshow/index.php.
I have been to lots of car shows (been a car buff all my life), but, I have
never seen an EV at one. I know there are local EV's in the area and I
encourage them to bring their cars. I have only seen EV's at EV,
environmental, or alternative fuel events. I think general car shows would be
far more effective in spreading EV recognition, since it is a different crowd -
not people who are already thinking along those lines.
No, my car is not an EV YET, but, I expect it will draw an even larger crowd
when it is!
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:48 AM
Subject: Another car show
I took my '61 Corvair Rampside pick up truck,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/656 to a big car
show in Glendale, CA yesterday. I got there around
5:00 and the show ended at 10:30. From the time I
lifted the battery cover until the show ended I was
surrounded by people, answering questions
continuously. I was amazed by all the attention my
little electric truck was getting among all the
classic muscle cars that were on display. My handouts
were gone in less than 2 hours. One handout details my
truck and has links to the EV album, NEDRA and some of
the parts and conversion kit suppliers. The other one
does a operating cost comparison between a conversion
and an ICE.
I had at least a dozen people ask me if I was
doing conversions or if I could convert their car for
them. I gave them the URL for Left Coast Conversions,
I'll have to add than one to my hand out. Hey Gadget,
do I get a finders fee for referrals? ;-) Seriously,
if you have an electric, take it to the "regular" car
shows, it's a great way to expose people to EVs. Just
be prepared to talk allot. People were asking me about
range, charge time, battery life, regenerative
braking, and even a few generators on the wheel
questions.
Quite a few people were aware of WKTEC and asked
me about it as well. I told them it was an excellent
movie and they should see it for themselves. All and
all a fun filled evening, even if I didn't get any
awards this time.
TiM
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, points taken. The skeleton can stay in the closet. Still trying to find
some clips of the Maniac Mazda though.
I pulled all the video and pics off this thread The Toecutter posted to the
Dragtimes forum
http://www.dragtimes.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1085&hl=electric+drag
I can't remember now if those EV1 clips you refer to were on that thread. I'll
go back and look.
If not do you happen to know where they are posted?
BTW, who is The Toecutter. That was an excellent post, references and all.
Mike,
Anchorage.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, July 17, 2006 6:28 am
Subject: Re: Another car show
To: [email protected]
> Hello to Mike and All,
>
> Mike Willmon wrote:
>
> >I'm planning to exhibit at the Alaska Renewable Energy Fair in
> about a month with an expected turnout of 2000. Needless to say
> I've come across many videos of a racing theme :-) ...Yes also the
> WrightSpeed video.
> >
>
> Mike, please don't show the 'skeleton' vehicle. Most people who
> see it
> find the 'vehicle' (I won't call it a car) laughable...no roof, no
> doors, no body sheet metal, no windows...come on, it's a joke.
> Then,
> there's the funky suido drag race against full bodied exotic cars,
> where
> they don't do it from a standing start (extremely important to
> display
> acceleration capability), they don't use timing lights, and
> there's not
> even a certifiable time slip. In my and respected EVers' opinions,
> this
> campaign reeks of snake oil and is doing more to hurt the EV image
> than
> it does to help it.
>
> It's a great idea to show EVs outperforming gas cars, but why not
> show
> folks fair contests? One that comes to mind readily is Rod Wilde's
> RX7
> against a Dodge Viper:
>
> Rod wrote:
>
> >I did low twelve's with a passenger once in the "Maniac Mazda"
> at
> Woodburn. It was Ryan Seacrest and we dusted off a Viper in the
> >other
> lane. He will never forget that ride! his excitement was captured
> by a
> camera mounted in the car.
>
> This video is from a TV show that was called 'The New Edge' and is
> available from Rod Wilde. Yes, Rod's car is definitely a racing
> prepped
> version of a Mazda RX7, but at least it's a full bodied car
> everyone can
> relate to. It cost far less to set up than the Dodge Viper it
> raced
> against and handily beat. Unlike the skeleton 'thing', an RX7 has
> doors,
> a roof, windows...well, it's a car! Seeing an RX7 with two guys in
> it,
> beat a Viper with one guy in it, on an NHRA track, with timing
> lights
> and even an ET slip shown to the camera, is VERY credible. The
> Wrightspeed hype is anything but. Take the Ferrari and the Porsche
> they
> cheated against, rip off their roofs and doors and body sheet
> metal, and
> redo the race with timing lights from a dead stop, and the
> skeleton
> vehicle would get blown away in fast order. Of course it would be
> more
> appropriate to somehow take the skeleton and build it into a real
> car
> with a full body. Then, redo the race contest...at least it will
> then,
> have doors to be blown off.
>
> Another video that comes to mind is footage of a stock EV1 out
> accelerating from a dead stop against a stock Nissan Z Car, a
> stock
> Mazda Miata, and another vehicle. Though there are no timing
> lights,
> it's done in a fair manner from a dead stop, and all the cars are
> recognizable vehicles.
>
> The only thing showing the skeleton 'thing' racing against exotic
> cars
> proves to the common car person, is that an EV has to cheat in an
> uneven
> playing field in order to beat a gas car...that's horribly bad PR
> for EVs.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
I'm just looking for the general rules on how to hook up an AC power
supply to DC. In particular, I'm trying to understand how to use a
switching power supply as a DC-DC converter.
There are no simple answers because there are so many types of power
supplies. Some work on DC, some don't. Most are not built as battery
chargers, and so have various problems. Most are not built to survive
the outdoor automotive environment; more problems.
If the supply uses a 60hz transformer or AC fan, it won't work on DC.
If the supply uses a voltage doubler configuration (two diodes and two
filter capacitors), it won't work on DC.
If the AC supply has a large inductor or capacitor in series with the
input, it won't work on DC.
If the supply uses phase control with SCRs or triacs, it won't work on DC.
Basically, the only type of AC power supply that *will* work on DC are
the ones that have a 4-diode bridge rectifier off the AC line. They
convert the incoming AC to DC, so everything after that point works on DC.
For a standard 120vac power supply what DC voltages (what size pack)
will it run off of? Or how would you determine this from it's specs?
A typical AC rating is 90-132 volts AC (115vac with allowances for high
and low line). When rectified and filtered, this becomes 126-185 volts
DC. So, you need a pack voltage that stays within this range.
But since the battery voltage sags under load, and is high while being
charged, the nominal battery voltage is smaller. For example, a 144v
pack sags to 126v at 1.75v/cell, and rises to 180v at 2.5v/cell. So, a
144v pack is the only one that actually stays within the AC supply's
specified input voltage range.
If you go lower, some supplies have enough design margin to work anyway;
others will deliver less power, refuse to work, or even burn up and die.
Most supplies will not have parts rated for higher voltages (to save
cost). So if you go much higher, the supply is likely to fail
dramatically (kaboom)!
> How about a power supply that runs 120/240?
There are two design approaches to do this. One is to switch it between
120 and 240vac. Such supplies usually have a voltage doubler for 120vac
(which won't work on DC), and a bridge rectifier for 240vac (which will
work on DC). The following stage is a DC/DC converter designed to work
on 180-370 volts DC. This type can be wired for 240vac operation, and
used with a 288 volt DC battery pack.
The other design approach is a "universal input". This type uses a
bridge rectifier on the input, but the rest of the circuit is designed
to work over a wide enough range to go all the way from 90-265vdc (or
126-370 volts DC) in one range. This type will work with any pack from
144v to 288v.
Universal input supplies are often power factor corrected. This is
another hint that the supply uses a simple bridge rectifier and can
accept a wide-range DC input.
Does polarity matter?
No. You can use either neutral or hot for + or - DC.
Other comments:
The switches, fuses or circuit breakers in an AC supply are not DC
rated. They usually won't work on DC, and need to be replaced.
You need to add an output fuse, because batteries can feed power back
into a power supply.
You may need a big diode in series with the output, so the battery won't
be run down by parts inside the power supply when the power supply is off.
The peak current drawn by a battery, motor, headlights, etc. in a car
can be extremely high; well in excess of the power supply's current
rating. Some supplies will shut down, overheat, or die if asked to do
this. Such supplies obviously won't work as DC/DC converters in a car.
You need one that limits its output current but keeps working when it is
overloaded.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently acquired a Corbin Sparrow and would like to
find a Straubel Battery Monitor. If anyone has one
and is not using it, I would like to purchase it as
part of my refurbishment of #146
thanks,
Sid Lloyd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you look at page 2,
http://www.antares.co.uk/pdf_files/pub109_7.pdf
They have 'high current stud fuses'
The terminal passes through the fuse.
One side connectes to the terminal and the other side
connects to a ring terminal (from your power source)
and
has a nylon washer for insulation from the terminal.
Does anybody know of a similar fuse by a different
vendor?
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Lee, this was exactly what I wanted to know, that it is way beyond my
abilities. Now I
can focus on a more traditional DC-DC. I really like Chris B's Vicor option.
It's much more suited
to my skill level. The goal is to keep the 12v battery and support it with a
DC-DC. Hopefully make
it smart enough to step up the voltage for charging as demand requires and
avoid a separate 12v
charger to freshen up the battery from time to time. The Iotas do the job but
are a little pricey
for me so I'm trying a more homegrown solution.
Dave Cover
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dave Cover wrote:
> > I'm just looking for the general rules on how to hook up an AC power
> > supply to DC. In particular, I'm trying to understand how to use a
> > switching power supply as a DC-DC converter.
>
> There are no simple answers because there are so many types of power
> supplies. Some work on DC, some don't. Most are not built as battery
> chargers, and so have various problems. Most are not built to survive
> the outdoor automotive environment; more problems.
>
> If the supply uses a 60hz transformer or AC fan, it won't work on DC.
>
> If the supply uses a voltage doubler configuration (two diodes and two
> filter capacitors), it won't work on DC.
>
> If the AC supply has a large inductor or capacitor in series with the
> input, it won't work on DC.
>
> If the supply uses phase control with SCRs or triacs, it won't work on DC.
>
> Basically, the only type of AC power supply that *will* work on DC are
> the ones that have a 4-diode bridge rectifier off the AC line. They
> convert the incoming AC to DC, so everything after that point works on DC.
>
> > For a standard 120vac power supply what DC voltages (what size pack)
> > will it run off of? Or how would you determine this from it's specs?
>
> A typical AC rating is 90-132 volts AC (115vac with allowances for high
> and low line). When rectified and filtered, this becomes 126-185 volts
> DC. So, you need a pack voltage that stays within this range.
>
> But since the battery voltage sags under load, and is high while being
> charged, the nominal battery voltage is smaller. For example, a 144v
> pack sags to 126v at 1.75v/cell, and rises to 180v at 2.5v/cell. So, a
> 144v pack is the only one that actually stays within the AC supply's
> specified input voltage range.
>
> If you go lower, some supplies have enough design margin to work anyway;
> others will deliver less power, refuse to work, or even burn up and die.
>
> Most supplies will not have parts rated for higher voltages (to save
> cost). So if you go much higher, the supply is likely to fail
> dramatically (kaboom)!
>
> > How about a power supply that runs 120/240?
>
> There are two design approaches to do this. One is to switch it between
> 120 and 240vac. Such supplies usually have a voltage doubler for 120vac
> (which won't work on DC), and a bridge rectifier for 240vac (which will
> work on DC). The following stage is a DC/DC converter designed to work
> on 180-370 volts DC. This type can be wired for 240vac operation, and
> used with a 288 volt DC battery pack.
>
> The other design approach is a "universal input". This type uses a
> bridge rectifier on the input, but the rest of the circuit is designed
> to work over a wide enough range to go all the way from 90-265vdc (or
> 126-370 volts DC) in one range. This type will work with any pack from
> 144v to 288v.
>
> Universal input supplies are often power factor corrected. This is
> another hint that the supply uses a simple bridge rectifier and can
> accept a wide-range DC input.
>
> > Does polarity matter?
>
> No. You can use either neutral or hot for + or - DC.
>
> Other comments:
>
> The switches, fuses or circuit breakers in an AC supply are not DC
> rated. They usually won't work on DC, and need to be replaced.
>
> You need to add an output fuse, because batteries can feed power back
> into a power supply.
>
> You may need a big diode in series with the output, so the battery won't
> be run down by parts inside the power supply when the power supply is off.
>
> The peak current drawn by a battery, motor, headlights, etc. in a car
> can be extremely high; well in excess of the power supply's current
> rating. Some supplies will shut down, overheat, or die if asked to do
> this. Such supplies obviously won't work as DC/DC converters in a car.
> You need one that limits its output current but keeps working when it is
> overloaded.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
