EV Digest 5681
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: TWO batteries are even MORE impressive!
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tesla Motors unveiled (my comments)
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NEWSFLASH: New Jersey DOES allow EV's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Contactor Wired Direct for Full Throttle Operation?
by Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) "Hybrid" Mass Transmit
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: FLA WKtEC Opening WAS all that other stuff.=Re: WarP 11 in Pickup
(was RE: Chelsea Sexton to appear...)
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Volt meter leakage current (is it possible ?)
by "fortunat mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV's dissed on Blue Collar TV (BCT)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: TWO batteries are even MORE impressive!
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Wabbit in the Wocky Mountain News
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: TWO batteries are even MORE impressive!
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Contactor Wired Direct for Full Throttle Operation?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric Power steering pump.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: World Leaders driving GEM cars at G-8 Summit
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Contactor Wired Direct for Full Throttle Operation?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: "Hybrid" Mass Transmit
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Contactor Wired Direct for Full Throttle Operation?
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "Hybrid" Mass Transit (long)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I removed the regulator BAT+ to get it to turn off.
This morning, I went back to rewiring the rest of the rear pack. All
seemed to be going well, until the negative end of the #2 cable I was
working with slipped under the #4 terminal cover. That created a short
through the cables between #2 and #3. This is just the kind of thing I
(okay, my kids) designed the rear pack for: no two neighboring terminals
have any higher voltage than absolutely necessary.
Even at only 24 volts, there were BIG sparks. There was splattered
lead, some of it on my hands, some headed towards the regulator. The
terminal melted a bit. The terminal clamp is well and truly melted.
When I saw the big cloud of vaporized lead billowing up, I told my
daughter -- who was acting as my safety -- to "Abandon garage!"
I called the Interstate I bought the batteries from. They say they
can't melt a new terminal on, and they confirmed that the warranty
doesn't cover stupidity. I'm thinking of soldering it to bring the
connection up to snuff. Will a normal electronic solder do, or do I
need something else?
Then I noticed that the #3 regulator undervoltage light was on.
Unfortunately, this is one of the inaccessible batteries, and I don't
have the charger hooked up yet. Of course, I reckon that the battery
can probably run the regulator for a few years before it runs down, so
I'm not too worried. I'll probably have the charger hooked up in a week
or two.
Certainly "Plasma Boy" has become "Plasma Man" by now? Can I be "Spark
Lad"?
Jude
Joe Smalley wrote:
The red LED is undervoltage memory.
It shows that battery has experienced an event pulling the terminal voltage
under the lowbat threshold.
Charge it enough to get the green LED to come on and the problem should
clear itself.
You can also clear it by pulling the regulator fuse and reinstalling it.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:05 AM
Subject: Even a single battery is impressive
I started installing the batteries into my rear pack today. Optima D34
YellowTops with regulators installed on top (with a thermal and
electrical insulating buffer). The final two are reasonably
inaccessible, so I wired their regulators and battery cables before
putting them in the box.
The box is insulated, for safety. I didn't short it that way.
No, I managed to get around the terminal covers and short the cable ends
together. Nice, impressive sparks, with a *crack* loud enough for my
wife to hear through the garage door. Is that smell ozone or vaporized
lead? Maybe I'd better not breathe it. And my regulator now has a
glowing red LED. According to the docs, that's the "undervoltage"
indicator. Did I actually draw enough amps in that quarter second to
make the voltage sag? Have I ruined my reg? The heat sink isn't even
warm.
Okay, so I don't deserve a moniker like "Plasma Boy" or anything. But
even a single Optima is enough to make an impression.
Judebert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am hesistant to respond to this one, but I feel it is necessary, so I will
and try to keep it short.
Why aren't people lining up to buy the vehicle in the link?
Simply stated, it does not meet the list of requirements for the common man.
Great for an EV hobbiest, but not the general public. Specifically why?
1. Age - This is a 10 year old chasis with probably 100k miles on it. That
puts it in the $8500 tops price range, and they are asking $16,500.
2. Shifting - The common man really will not like all that shifting. Most
people buy automatics. This car is a 5 speed. Hopefully it does have a
clutch. If not, even more not accepted by the general public.
3. Range - The requirement was 80 miles. That is 80 miles under any driving
condition with no reduction in performance, specifically. That means, 80 miles
at 65 MPH on the highway, 80 miles at 45 MPH in stop and go with hills. 80
miles of stop and go bumper to bumper gridlock traffic. The car simply will
not do that. I am not going to say what I believe the car will really do under
those conditions, but it is a lot less than the 50+ miles quoted. A major
issue most 1st time EV buyers find out almost immediately.
4. Acceleration - I said it had to be equivilent to a modern small 4
cylinder car or better. That car definately will not meet that performance
with a 144 V / 500 A Curtis controller. Even cars with 156 V / 1k controllers
loaded with lead acid batteries will not beat my corolla off the line. Simply
stated, it just isn't fast enough. Good for a hobbiest, but the general
population wants much more.
5. No BMS. And the general public needs it, or they will kill the pack
because they are inexperienced with EVs.
Is this the type of car that I would buy? Well, if it had a clutch, I'd go
about $8500 if it has a decent battery pack, $5000 with old batteries. I know
people on e-bay (who in general know nothing about EVs) may pay more. But,
they were mislead by the specs as written and will soon be disappointed when
they can't go 50 miles at 85 MPH.
Just as an example, take Steve Clunn's cars. He makes some of the finest
vehicles in the southeast, and he has a great "financing" plan. But, he still
can't move them. Same reason. If you don't believe me, ask Steve yourself.
He tried to sell his Trecell for $10k. No takers. Couldn't even sell the
300XZ with a 9" motor, 156 V system, and 1k controller. Why not? Didn't meet
the needs of the average person. With all that said, hats off to Steve. I
think he does some of the finest work around and I wish him the best. Still
though, the cars must meet the needs if you are going to sell them.
Steve
jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The cars are out there ....
http://tinyurl.com/mqv6x
where are the buyers ??
No movement until $5.00 gas which is when ...next year ??
It's always next year
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michaela Merz"
wrote:
>
> > Steve, agree with your points.
> > I did want to make an interesting point that the classic VW bug
is still
> > produced in Mexico. It can't be imported because it fails US
emissions,
> > which the air quality in mexico city proves. Converting those to
> > electric power and selling them could be a very inexpensive
brand new
> > electric car that would have an actual impact on the environment.
> > Jack
>
> Huh? The classic Volkswagen Bug hasn't been produced in Mexico
since 2003.
> Anyway, I catch your drift. Find some kind of a long time produced
car and
> convert it. Should come with some decent safety features though.
>
> Michaela
>
> >
> > Steve Powers wrote:
> >> I read all the posts about the Tesla with mixed emotion. True,
it seems
> >> like a very nice EV, one of the best I have seen. I would go
as far as
> >> to say it is over-designed, 0 - 60 in 4 sec, 250 mile range.
Who can
> >> honestly say that they really need a car like that. And, then
I heard
> >> about the price, which of course I expected to be quite high.
In fact,
> >> it is. I have heard $80k, and even $90k from a different
source. Maybe
> >> they were trying to make a point that a high performance EV can
be made.
> >> But, we already knew that.
> >>
> >> At the same time, what they created is a car that to the
common man
> >> might as well be made out of "unobtanium." I'd say 99% of the
people
> >> on this list can't afford that car. I'd say 99.99% of the
general
> >> population can't afford that car, and if they could, they
wouldn't buy
> >> it. Why not? Those people, the ones with the money, are smart
> >> business people and they don't want a hassle. They want a car
backed
> >> by a major auto maker. Something like a Lexus, Mercedes,
BMW ... I
> >> truthfully don't see them buying the car. There are the select
few
> >> super rich who are also into the environment or unique cars.
Those
> >> few may buy one. I expect that I will never see one on the
road in my
> >> daily travels. And, I suspect that most of you never will
either.
> >> So, what was gained? Some good publicity, sure. Someone
proved a
> >> point, sure. Did it actually help get the common man any
closer to
> >> driving an EV, no. I have to say no. If anything, it makes
people
> >> think that EVs are super
> >> expensive. Still not pratical for the common man, people like
me.
> >>
> >> I've stated before what I think (this is my opinion, so feel
free to
> >> disagree) the common man is looking for, and still no one seems
to be
> >> pursuing that market.
> >> 1. Late model conversion - doesn't even have to be new
> >> 2. Sustainable - parts available for at least 10 years
> >> 3. Reasonable comforts, power brakes, AC
> >> 4. Automatic - the common man doesn't like to shift - it is
true
> >> 5. Performance similar to a typical 4 cyl car - Corolla /
Civic
> >> (better than a Force)
> >> 6. Cost - if well reconditioned, about $12 - $18k. Quality
of an 8-10
> >> year old used car - which would be easier to market - $8500 -
$10k.
> >> 7. Battery pack availability in the future and it can't cost a
> >> fortune. I think as far as the common man goes, Li Ion is
out. NiMH
> >> is still an option. Even decent lead acid is OK.
> >> 8. As far as battery maintenance goes, the common man
doesn't want to
> >> have to water them.
> >> 9. The car needs to be smart with a BMS because the common
man doesn't
> >> like hassles.
> >> 10. Range. A real world range - in real world traffic -
with hills
> >> and stop and go - 80 miles. 80 miles is more than sufficient.
If it
> >> is a parallel hybrid as well, it could have a 25 mile range in
EV mode
> >> as long as it has similar performance in EV and hybrid ICE mode.
> >> 11. It has to be backed by a major auto manufacturer so that
people
> >> can sleep well at night knowing that someone will be there if it
> >> breaks and needs repair.
> >> 12. Options of 2 door or 4 door.
> >>
> >> I think the above could be done, and a successful business
could be
> >> created catering to that market.
> >>
> >> What do I think will happen long term? Well, I think one of
the major
> >> auto makers will come out with a plug in hybrid dual purpose EV
and
> >> ICE car. I think the car will do at least 25 miles in EV mode
and
> >> will go 0-60 like the current small hybrids. I think it will be
> >> freeway capable. I think it will be Toyota, and I think it will
> >> happen within the next 3 - 5 years. I also think the common
man will
> >> buy that car. I think that like me, he / she commutes < 25
miles on
> >> work days and can run all electric monday - friday. And, I
think if
> >> he / she needs a little extra range one night or on a weekend
he or
> >> she will go and fuel it up. I think it is pratical and a decent
> >> approach to clocking some real EV miles. Everyone that I know
who has
> >> an EV also has an ICE car. If you put them in the same chasis,
you
> >> only have to register, insure, store, and maintain one car. I
see a
> >> real advantage to this. Sure, I want all electric cars on the
road, I
> >> bought 3 of them you know.
> >> And, I even started building a 4th. I am an EV guy, don't get
me
> >> wrong. But, to get them on the road, I think we need to take
that
> >> intermediate step. This is my opinion, so feel free to
disagree.
> >>
> >> In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to keep waiting until
someon
> >> sells their 10 year old conversion with a 80 mile real world
range for
> >> $8500. Trust me, anyone with that car, isn't selling it. And
if they
> >> were, it wouldn't be $8500. I do remember though when you
could buy a
> >> used Force for about $4000 and a Jet Electra for <$1500 and of
course
> >> my first EV for only $600. I paid about $3600 for the ETV-1,
not
> >> running. But, now that has all changed. I guess I'll just
have to
> >> dream on thinking I can still get that dream car for $8500.
> >>
> >>
> >> Still dreaming,
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >> Cor van de Water wrote:
> >> What I saw when putting the pictures of the Lotus Elise 3
> >> and the Tesla side by side was that the CHASSIS seems to be
> >> identical, but the styling of the panels is quite different,
> >> so it seems to be "based on" the Elise 3 (Federal).
> >>
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/pictures/edatabase/viewpicture.
php?id=
> >> 116&image=chassis.jpg&title=chassis&album=laautoshow03
> >>
> >> and from the unveiling pictures:
> >> http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/autoblog/hirezpics/IMG_6894.jpg
> >> http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/20/tesla-roadster-unveiling-in-
santa-monica/
> >>
> >> Some striking details ARE the same, such as the striplights
next to
> >> the wheels on the fenders.
> >> But the design of the hood, the lines on the side, the scoop, a
lot of
> >> things
> >> are different, so it is not really a look-a-like.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Cor van de Water
> >> Systems Architect
> >> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> >> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> >> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> >> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> >> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Behalf Of nikki
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:07 PM
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: Re: Tesla Motors unveiled
> >>
> >>
> >> Apparently the Tesla is actually a Lotus - I have just been
listening
> >> to the BBC radio station in Norfolk and they just mentioned it
in the
> >> news!
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Nikki
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >>
> >
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
This reminds me of how the Oregon DMV told me that my 1921 Milburn Electric
couldn't be registered as a Milburn EV, but had to be a Mobile gas car
(never mind the fact that Mobile produced steam cars) just because that's
the closest thing to MLBN in their computer system...eventually someone at
the DMV with the power to do something about the situation said, "oh, we
just need to fill out internal form 54321XYZ to request adding a new car
maker name to the computer"...prob solved---the EV is an EV again.
Could be worse... a friend of mine was somehow mis-filed as "diseased"
by the Social Security Administration. It took here *years* to get them
to acknowledge and correct the error.
"I'm not dead!"
"Yes, you are. It says so right here..."
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone. I read a suggestion on a different list to wire a contactor
across the controller for full throttle operation. When full throttle is
applied, the contactor would close, applying full pack voltage directly to the
motor and bypassing the controller. What are your thoughts on this? Any
pitfalls to doing it?
Thanks,
Patrick
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem with electric cars is the battery. For good range, it must
be too big and costly relative to gasoline.
So what can be done to get by with a small cheaper battery pack? Well,
the car must be recharged often.
Can we do it "in flight"?
Use the battery power of an electric car to energize a magnet that will
"attach" yourself to the vehicle in front of you.
Basically, steal their power and have them pull you along and recharge
your batteries.
Now of course this is cheating. But consider this, have "pullers"
running on the freeways at peak hours, the electric cars magnetically
attach say 4-5 together and get their batts recharged during the commute.
I've seen this "smart car" train idea to improve safety and mpg by
reducing wind resistance from the drafting effect, but this would be an
improvement on that idea.
This is something like a "Hybrid" mass transmit system. Individual
vehicles, but pooled together like mass transmit solutions.
Freeway onramps have staging areas where the pullers wait, the cars link
up, and off it goes. your offramp comes up, you "pull the cord" like a
bus, and you get detached. They bill you for the miles spent attached.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bob,
You have no idea how cynical I am and what ulterior motives I have. That is
exactly why I invited you to stay here at my place during BBB this last
January -- because your place in Corrupticut is going to be my ticket outta
here when the big Greenland and West Antartic ice-sheet melt-offs start to
swallow us up and put us under down here! But I forgot to ask you -- just
what is your elevation there? Gotta be sure, you know. As long as you're
above 30 feet, you're good, and I'll start mapping out my route to your
place! :-)
Hey, you're welcome to come back and stay with me again next winter for BBB,
and this time it will be even bigger because we are simultaneously hosting
the 6th EVer EAA All Chapters Conference on the same weekend as BBB. Just
praying those damn EV vortex Gods don't rain on our parade and race!
Usually January is OK on that score. May thru Oct. is our tropical monsoon
season. ... Knock on wood. Oh yeah, and one other thing on the 6th EVer
Conference -- don't anyone trust me on any EVent time and location info I
give you that weekend, ... unless you verify it yourself with someone with a
higher pay grade than myself, ... preferably by cell phone. OUCH!
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 2:32 PM
Subject: FLA WKtEC Opening WAS all that other stuff.=Re: WarP 11 in Pickup
(was RE: Chelsea Sexton to appear...)
Hi FLA guyz an' EVerybody else;
You guys know how to do it right!More power to you all there.Now, if Joe
Sixpack, fla edition shows up?Steve Clunn there with his wild offerings,
too.Thanks Charles W. for opening your home to the EV crew , again<g>!
Chelsea coming too.A steller line up. Makes me think I'd like to winter in
FLA in the FLA EV Triangle<g>! Seems like it is getting that way down
there.If the icecap melts, there is room in the highlands of CT when the
Gold Coast is under water<g>!Well, ya have a few more years.
Ya gotta post how it went, though!
Seeya
Bob>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I've been in lurk mode for some time as I have been moving and not playing
with the Fiero much. Now I have some time, and also a new question. I hope
someone can help.
Is it possible (normal) for my dashboard voltmeter to have a small leakage
current through it ?
Here is my situation :
I have a pretty standard electrical set up. My fiero is 120 V nominal pack
voltage. I have two contactors (Kilovacs) between the pack and the
controller. The contactor on the negative side (C1) comes on with the key.
The contactor on the positive side of the pack (C2) comes on with the high
limit switch on the pot box. Since my controller mishap early this year, I
also have a precharge contactor (along with resistor and fuse) that is in
parallel with C2 and comes on at the same time as C1. My volt meter and
DC/DC converter are connected to the controller side of C1 and to the pack
side of C2 (so that they come on with the key regardless of pedal position).
Today while charging, on a whim I tested the voltage on the controller and
was surprised to find that the controller + terminal was 130 VDC above the
negative side of the pack. This shouldn't be the case unless either C2 or my
precharge contactor is stuck ON. I pulled the precharge fuse and the voltage
stayed high. So I disconnected the pack and measured for continuity between
the two sides of C2. The resistance was low but climbing (as if I was
charging a cap). Anyway, I started disconnecting things (DC/DC and Volt
meter) and when I tested the voltmeter from positive to negative i found it
read 150 kOhm.
I guess the short version of my question is, is it normal for the voltmeter
pins to only read 150 kOhm between them ? I don't know the brand of the
meter but it is the basic EV volt meter that EV America and everyone else
sells. It seems to work fine. Should I suspect the wiring ?
thanks for any help you can provide.
~fortunat (hoping to finally get the second half the pack into the fiero and
to have a useable car by the end of the summer)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI-
THE GENERAL EV
F.T.
> [Original Message]
> From: David (Battery Boy) Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: EV Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Date: 7/22/2006 1:50:29 PM
> Subject: EV's dissed on Blue Collar TV (BCT)
>
> All,
> I'm thinking that most of you don't watch BCT, and as a Progressive
> Redneck(TM) I only laugh at about half the jokes on the show! This dissing
> was actually from an episode a couple of weeks ago, but I forgot to post
> about it at the time. As I recall, BCT did a skit that was a PC
> (Politically Correct) version of the old Dukes of Hazard TV show (wasn't a
> Dukes movie made recently?). The two Duke boys and Daisy jump into the
> General Lee (old mopar) and sloooowwwwwly drive away, commenting on how
> slow the car is because it's eelectric, but environmentally correct! They
> had me "madder than a leg-less Ethiopian chasing a donut down a hill"
> (Larry the cable guy non-PC saying), so we need to send hate mail to them.
> I wonder if we have any NEDRA cars near the show's location?
>
> This reminds me that years ago John Bryan talked about doing a show with
an
> eelectric General Lee, and the script would be something like, "Hey Luke,
> we need to install that there new Zilla controller we just got..." Hmmmm,
I
> have an old mopar...
>
> BB
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude,
I use a piece of old innertube to cover the cable ends that I'm working
with, or sometimes I wrap the end with a piece of bubble wrap, or even
electrical tape. I also use a shop towel to cover adjacent terminals
in case a uncovered cable end slips while I'm installling it.
Ralph
Jude Anthony writes:
>
> I removed the regulator BAT+ to get it to turn off.
>
> This morning, I went back to rewiring the rest of the rear pack. All
> seemed to be going well, until the negative end of the #2 cable I was
> working with slipped under the #4 terminal cover. That created a short
> through the cables between #2 and #3. This is just the kind of thing I
> (okay, my kids) designed the rear pack for: no two neighboring terminals
> have any higher voltage than absolutely necessary.
>
> Even at only 24 volts, there were BIG sparks. There was splattered
> lead, some of it on my hands, some headed towards the regulator. The
> terminal melted a bit. The terminal clamp is well and truly melted.
> When I saw the big cloud of vaporized lead billowing up, I told my
> daughter -- who was acting as my safety -- to "Abandon garage!"
>
> I called the Interstate I bought the batteries from. They say they
> can't melt a new terminal on, and they confirmed that the warranty
> doesn't cover stupidity. I'm thinking of soldering it to bring the
> connection up to snuff. Will a normal electronic solder do, or do I
> need something else?
>
> Then I noticed that the #3 regulator undervoltage light was on.
> Unfortunately, this is one of the inaccessible batteries, and I don't
> have the charger hooked up yet. Of course, I reckon that the battery
> can probably run the regulator for a few years before it runs down, so
> I'm not too worried. I'll probably have the charger hooked up in a week
> or two.
>
> Certainly "Plasma Boy" has become "Plasma Man" by now? Can I be "Spark
> Lad"?
>
> Jude
>
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > The red LED is undervoltage memory.
> >
> > It shows that battery has experienced an event pulling the terminal voltage
> > under the lowbat threshold.
> >
> > Charge it enough to get the green LED to come on and the problem should
> > clear itself.
> >
> > You can also clear it by pulling the regulator fuse and reinstalling it.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:05 AM
> > Subject: Even a single battery is impressive
> >
> >
> >
> >> I started installing the batteries into my rear pack today. Optima D34
> >> YellowTops with regulators installed on top (with a thermal and
> >> electrical insulating buffer). The final two are reasonably
> >> inaccessible, so I wired their regulators and battery cables before
> >> putting them in the box.
> >>
> >> The box is insulated, for safety. I didn't short it that way.
> >>
> >> No, I managed to get around the terminal covers and short the cable ends
> >> together. Nice, impressive sparks, with a *crack* loud enough for my
> >> wife to hear through the garage door. Is that smell ozone or vaporized
> >> lead? Maybe I'd better not breathe it. And my regulator now has a
> >> glowing red LED. According to the docs, that's the "undervoltage"
> >> indicator. Did I actually draw enough amps in that quarter second to
> >> make the voltage sag? Have I ruined my reg? The heat sink isn't even
> >>
> > warm.
> >
> >> Okay, so I don't deserve a moniker like "Plasma Boy" or anything. But
> >> even a single Optima is enough to make an impression.
> >>
> >> Judebert
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was a nifty article in the Rocky Mountain News about a week ago
about what Boulder scientists are doing personally about global
warming. They featured my car, the Wabbit.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4849571,00.html
I was out of town last week, so I didn't know about it until now.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am lazy. I only use a spare leather glove with a rubber band to cover the
other end. It is easy to put on and take off. It has always worked.
On 7/23/06, Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jude,
I use a piece of old innertube to cover the cable ends that I'm working
with, or sometimes I wrap the end with a piece of bubble wrap, or even
electrical tape. I also use a shop towel to cover adjacent terminals
in case a uncovered cable end slips while I'm installling it.
Ralph
Jude Anthony writes:
>
> I removed the regulator BAT+ to get it to turn off.
>
> This morning, I went back to rewiring the rest of the rear pack. All
> seemed to be going well, until the negative end of the #2 cable I was
> working with slipped under the #4 terminal cover. That created a short
> through the cables between #2 and #3. This is just the kind of thing I
> (okay, my kids) designed the rear pack for: no two neighboring terminals
> have any higher voltage than absolutely necessary.
>
> Even at only 24 volts, there were BIG sparks. There was splattered
> lead, some of it on my hands, some headed towards the regulator. The
> terminal melted a bit. The terminal clamp is well and truly melted.
> When I saw the big cloud of vaporized lead billowing up, I told my
> daughter -- who was acting as my safety -- to "Abandon garage!"
>
> I called the Interstate I bought the batteries from. They say they
> can't melt a new terminal on, and they confirmed that the warranty
> doesn't cover stupidity. I'm thinking of soldering it to bring the
> connection up to snuff. Will a normal electronic solder do, or do I
> need something else?
>
> Then I noticed that the #3 regulator undervoltage light was on.
> Unfortunately, this is one of the inaccessible batteries, and I don't
> have the charger hooked up yet. Of course, I reckon that the battery
> can probably run the regulator for a few years before it runs down, so
> I'm not too worried. I'll probably have the charger hooked up in a week
> or two.
>
> Certainly "Plasma Boy" has become "Plasma Man" by now? Can I be "Spark
> Lad"?
>
> Jude
>
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > The red LED is undervoltage memory.
> >
> > It shows that battery has experienced an event pulling the terminal
voltage
> > under the lowbat threshold.
> >
> > Charge it enough to get the green LED to come on and the problem
should
> > clear itself.
> >
> > You can also clear it by pulling the regulator fuse and reinstalling
it.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:05 AM
> > Subject: Even a single battery is impressive
> >
> >
> >
> >> I started installing the batteries into my rear pack today. Optima
D34
> >> YellowTops with regulators installed on top (with a thermal and
> >> electrical insulating buffer). The final two are reasonably
> >> inaccessible, so I wired their regulators and battery cables before
> >> putting them in the box.
> >>
> >> The box is insulated, for safety. I didn't short it that way.
> >>
> >> No, I managed to get around the terminal covers and short the cable
ends
> >> together. Nice, impressive sparks, with a *crack* loud enough for my
> >> wife to hear through the garage door. Is that smell ozone or
vaporized
> >> lead? Maybe I'd better not breathe it. And my regulator now has a
> >> glowing red LED. According to the docs, that's the "undervoltage"
> >> indicator. Did I actually draw enough amps in that quarter second to
> >> make the voltage sag? Have I ruined my reg? The heat sink isn't
even
> >>
> > warm.
> >
> >> Okay, so I don't deserve a moniker like "Plasma Boy" or
anything. But
> >> even a single Optima is enough to make an impression.
> >>
> >> Judebert
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
--
Edward Ang
AirLab
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 23, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Patrick Maston wrote:
Hello everyone. I read a suggestion on a different list to wire a
contactor across the controller for full throttle operation. When
full throttle is applied, the contactor would close, applying full
pack voltage directly to the motor and bypassing the controller. What
are your thoughts on this? Any pitfalls to doing it?
Turning the contactor back off could blow the diodes in the controller.
Contactor bypass has no current limit except the operator (if you're
like me that would be *very* hard on the batteries and motor.)
At the very least, please contact your controller maker and ask them
what they think about it. (likely a negative answer)
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering if all these accessory drive motors are at 12 vdc. To drive
all my inverter-alternator, power steering, A/C and vacuum pump all at the
same time, the ampere will peak to 30 amps at 180 volts.
That is 3600 watts, if driven by 12 volts that would be 300 amps, so that
does not work for me.
Plus I am running three heaters, eight fans, three pumps, and over 50
indicators which at one time pull over 100 amps when everything is on at the
same time.
The advantage I have with this much accessory load, which is driven by the
main motor, that it will just about stop the EV going down a steep icy hill
with no additional braking.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 11:07 AM
Subject: Electric Power steering pump.
> Just thought I would mention this which I stumbled across on ebay the
> "1989 suburu XT" appaerntly has an electric hydraulic pump.
>
>
> Item# 250010854984
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They call the Gem a golf cart. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: World Leaders driving GEM cars at G-8 Summit
>
> I thought folks would appreciate this photo of a GEM with Putin driving
and
> Bush and Condi as passengers-
>
> Image 4 from the Newsweek.com photo gallery "Weight of the World":
>
http://www.msnbc.com/modules/interactive.aspx?type=ss&launch=13973924,3032542&pg=4
> ...
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
> Olympia, WA
>
> My EV and RE Project Pages-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Patrick,
My old CableForm SCR motor controller had this bypass system. It was
normally using for REGEN back to the batteries, when the accelerator was let
up which drop off the main contactor.
A total 7 contactors was required to do this. Two safety contactors off the
battery, a main contactor to the controller, a regen braking contactor that
had a large resistor in series with it, a double reversing contactor, and a
by pass contactor.
It was possible to drive the EV with the by pass contactor, if the main
controller went out. If this happens, it is best to reduce the battery
voltage by re-linking the battery. I carry different size links just in
case this even happens with the Zilla I have now.
You have to have the main contactor off to disconnect the motor controller
from the batteries to do a bypass.
The large open Cableform contactors, can take this surge and flash. After
several times, the contactor pads can be rebuild up with high temperature
silver alloy.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 1:52 PM
Subject: Contactor Wired Direct for Full Throttle Operation?
> Hello everyone. I read a suggestion on a different list to wire a
> contactor across the controller for full throttle operation. When full
> throttle is applied, the contactor would close, applying full pack voltage
> directly to the motor and bypassing the controller. What are your
> thoughts on this? Any pitfalls to doing it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patrick
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One big problem I see is if number 2 in line wants to get off, everyone has
to unhook. Also, I think cars could only be added while stopped.
I would like to see inductors buried in the concrete in one lane of freeways
(I got the idea from someone on this list quite a while back). While
driving on freeways, you car is inductively coupled so that the power for
driving and recharging batteries is provided by these inductors. Thus, you
have a full charge at your destination for use in town. You could either be
metered and billed for the electricity or, perhaps easier, this would be a
toll lane and all electrics using the electrified lane would pay a flat fee
for the distance driven (not quite fair, but easier to implement). Of
course, some kind of standardization would be required.
Dave
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: "Hybrid" Mass Transmit
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 13:04:18 -0700
The problem with electric cars is the battery. For good range, it must be
too big and costly relative to gasoline.
So what can be done to get by with a small cheaper battery pack? Well, the
car must be recharged often.
Can we do it "in flight"?
Use the battery power of an electric car to energize a magnet that will
"attach" yourself to the vehicle in front of you.
Basically, steal their power and have them pull you along and recharge your
batteries.
Now of course this is cheating. But consider this, have "pullers" running
on the freeways at peak hours, the electric cars magnetically attach say
4-5 together and get their batts recharged during the commute.
I've seen this "smart car" train idea to improve safety and mpg by reducing
wind resistance from the drafting effect, but this would be an improvement
on that idea.
This is something like a "Hybrid" mass transmit system. Individual
vehicles, but pooled together like mass transmit solutions.
Freeway onramps have staging areas where the pullers wait, the cars link
up, and off it goes. your offramp comes up, you "pull the cord" like a
bus, and you get detached. They bill you for the miles spent attached.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends. I have seen it work OK in low voltage systems. Something like 72
V with batteries that don't have the ampacity to smoke the system.
I had it in my car using a GE EV-1 controller which was designed to work with
a contactor bypass and I wouldn't have had it any other way. I might even be
tempted to try it up to 84 V using standard golf cart batteries. I know
someone else who used it on an 84 V and even a 112 V system, but he didn't use
it nearly as aggressively as I did in my car. I always drove mine with my foot
to the floor, contactor engaged (after a rampup from the controller). It can
be done, but you need to be careful about the battery voltage and safety
features. If you can afford it, get a better high power controller, it is MUCH
SAFER than the old contactor trick. If I had to do it again, I'd spend the
money on a 1k controller and forget the contactor. That's just me though.
When 1k controllers weren't available and we were dealing with 300 A out of an
old forklift controller, the contactor made sense. Today, it doesn't seem like
a very good idea, given the alternatives.
Steve
"Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jul 23, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Patrick Maston wrote:
> Hello everyone. I read a suggestion on a different list to wire a
> contactor across the controller for full throttle operation. When
> full throttle is applied, the contactor would close, applying full
> pack voltage directly to the motor and bypassing the controller. What
> are your thoughts on this? Any pitfalls to doing it?
Turning the contactor back off could blow the diodes in the controller.
Contactor bypass has no current limit except the operator (if you're
like me that would be *very* hard on the batteries and motor.)
At the very least, please contact your controller maker and ask them
what they think about it. (likely a negative answer)
Paul G.
---------------------------------
See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like this idea. I have a few (well, a lot of) observations to add.
All my own inexpert opinions, of course.
On Jul 23, 2006, at 2:04 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
The problem with electric cars is the battery. For good range, it
must be too big and costly relative to gasoline.
So what can be done to get by with a small cheaper battery pack?
Well, the car must be recharged often.
Can we do it "in flight"?
Use the battery power of an electric car to energize a magnet that
will "attach" yourself to the vehicle in front of you.
Basically, steal their power and have them pull you along and recharge
your batteries.
There's no need to use an electromagnet for this - a mechanical
coupling would be much stronger and use a lot less power. It might
weigh more, though. You also need a separate connection for the
electricity to recharge while in the train. Unless you expect each EV
has regen - which adds other problems.
Now of course this is cheating. But consider this, have "pullers"
running on the freeways at peak hours, the electric cars magnetically
attach say 4-5 together and get their batts recharged during the
commute.
That's clever! Some thoughts:
- EVs would need to be designed to withstand the stress of having four
or more cars hanging off the rear bumper. This will drive up weight
and cost. Especially if you allow the cars being towed to use regen,
requiring stronger couplers and a very beefed-up frame for every EV.
- The tow vehicle would probably be something like a standard truck
(without trailer), driven by a human. No (or very little) extra
freeway infrastructure needed.
- There are laws on how long a truck can be, probably different in
every state.
- This isn't like a train. It's not on rails. Dynamic stability will
need to be carefully managed. Nobody allowed to turn his steering
wheel, put on the brakes, step on the accelerator. What happens when
the driver of the puller has to make an emergency stop, or runs into
something? This assumes that each car in the train is being controlled
by a computer in the puller
- Given that assumption, how is control returned to the driver, at
freeway speeds? There's a big chance of a nasty accident here. Return
control too soon, and the tail wags the dog. Return it too late and
you're loose on the freeway with no control of your car. Regardless,
the driver will have to be careful to not overcontrol the car when
being dropped off the train.
I've seen this "smart car" train idea to improve safety and mpg by
reducing wind resistance from the drafting effect, but this would be
an improvement on that idea.
Smart car is right. I think this idea has the best chance of working
if we ever get the "Smart Highway" built, where the cars can guide
themselves, or be guided by the road.
This is something like a "Hybrid" mass transmit system. Individual
vehicles, but pooled together like mass transmit solutions.
Freeway onramps have staging areas where the pullers wait, the cars
link up, and off it goes. your offramp comes up, you "pull the cord"
like a bus, and you get detached. They bill you for the miles spent
attached.
The problem here is what happens if you're in the middle of the train
and you want the exit? I see the following options:
- The train would need to be carefully assembled so it could come
apart, in order, from the back to the front. If you change your mind
after you hit the freeway, too bad. You'll have to wait until you get
to the rear and can be dropped.
- The train would have to be able to part in the middle, let you out,
then reform itself while on the highway. Tricky, but probably doable
if the whole train is under computer control.
Question: am I worrying too much about the skill of EV drivers? Would
we all learn not to jiggle the wheel or play with the pedals while
entrained, and learn to not have the wheel cramped over when being
released from the train? Personally, I'd be worried that there was an
idiot a few cars up that might forget what he was doing and fling me
into a bridge abutment. But, I take a similar risk every time I
drive....
If we have to wait for the Smart Highway, this may never work.
If we have to standardize our EVs (standard couplings fore and aft at a
standard height, overridable controls, computers, etc) it may never
happen either.
One way to make this sort of idea work without those two things is to
use a bus analogy instead of a train. Here's how it might work:
- You drive into the puller stop. You select your destination and pay
for your ticket, then drive your car onto a pallet. You plug your
charger into the appropriate outlet on the pallet (120, 240, Avcon,
whatever). You get back in the car and wait. The pallet might have
shore power available, to run your AC and do a bit of charging. (If we
can get a standard going here, perhaps the hookup would be automatic.)
- The puller arrives. It's like a car transport truck. Special
loading equipment removes the pallets with cars that are getting off at
this stop, and loads up the cars waiting to get on (including yours).
This needs to be done as fast as possible.
- The puller drives off. Power is supplied to your pallet from the
puller, charging the car while you ride in comfort, logging on the
puller's on-board wireless Internet with your laptop.
- The puller stops at each stop, letting passengers (palletized cars)
on and off.
- When you get to your stop, your pallet is deposited on the ground.
You turn off your laptop and drive away.
Drawback: the process of loading/unloading all those pallets is very
much more complicated than getting people on and off of buses or subway
trains. You need infrastructure for this at every stop.
It might be too dangerous to be in your car while it's being powered on
and off the puller, so you might need to ride in a bus. Hey, we've
reinvented car transporters and Greyhound!
Other range-extending ideas have been floated on this list. The ones I
can remember offhand:
- fast swap battery packs
- on-board generators
- generator trailers
- pusher trailers
- swapping out the whole chassis
- special EVs that can ride on special rails using offboard power, or
can drive on normal roads
I don't like any of the items on this list. The best of the lot is the
pusher trailer, I think.
At this stage in my thinking, I believe that the best next step is to
perfect rapid charging. If you could do a fast bulk charge on your
pack and (safely) get it 80% full in a few minutes, everything changes.
Instead of needing to charge on the go, you pull off the freeway and
make a quick refueling stop. Thank you Rich Rudman and those like him,
for working on this problem. I for one can't wait.
My opinion on the best range extender available TODAY for an EV?
Another (petroleum-burning) car. Rent it if you only need it
infrequently, or take mass transit.
Jack
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
