EV Digest 5693
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) French EV Zoop on gizmag
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Covered wheels
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Home made 3 phase AC motor (was Replacing motor can with lighter
material)
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by "James Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.gizmag.com/go/5844/
July 10, 2006 The Zooop is a high performance 150 kW three seat
electric car that weighs just 690 kilograms and has a range of 450
kilometres. It won a special award at the recent international
sustainable mobility event, the Michelin Bibendum Challenge for its
extreme performance. Remarkably, the Zooop is not the product of an
automotive manufacturer, or even an automotive design house. It is the
third fully-operative EV prototype produced by globally renowned
Paris-based fashion design house Maison de Courrèges and has had very
little publicity outside of the car's native France.... more at
http://www.gizmag.com/go/5844/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have qualitative or quantitative data on how much power a
small car can save by having covered wheel wells for example, the Honda
Insight, and maybe a less aerodynamic car like a Cavalier?
What about smooth hub-caps like some bicycle racers used to (do?) use?
--
Martin K
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike
I'm not Rod Hower or Lee but I'll reply anyway.
Making your own motor is not difficult.. making an efficient motor is,
unless you already have the proper parts.
If you want to make a traditional laminated rotor motor, you would need
access to the silicon steel laminations that make up the rotor - or in
the case of a synchronous AC or "brushless DC" motor, the laminations
make up the stator. I am working on a small BLDC motor for which I got
some parts from a generous person, he knows who he is and can volunteer
information about it if he wants to, but to continue:
Many people also build "pancake" motors that look like two disks with an
airspace in the middle. I'm not sure about the efficiency, it seems that
the air gap would be ill-defined because the flux would be traveling
through the gap twice. These motors have the advantage of generally
having higher torque than a regular motor of the same weight. They also
have the advantage of being easier for the hobbyist to make. If you have
a lathe and a milling machine you should be able to knock one out. I
don't know about how these scale up past a few kW. You might have eddy
current problems.
Someone here has/had a minibike with a homemade pancake motor I believe.
I haven't heard of it in a while.
HTH
Martin K
Mike Phillips wrote:
Rod,
I remember you from the OSMC group. How are things over there? I still
peruse by once in a while.
Do you think it would be very difficult to make a good 3 phase motor at
home? Air cooled too. I've got a lathe and a mill if that helps.
Mike
PS Lee, I'd like to hear your opinion on this too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
that can source 2000 amps. A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
second vehicle. How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
Wow, I have been to a lot of EV drag races and I've never seen one run this
fast nor have I seen an AC system on the track that could beat my Honda
Insight. I know of exactly 3 EV drag racers that have run 11's or lower and
they were all DC powered. What track do you go to to see these 11 second AC
machines?
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jude,
Glad to hear it's all coming together and the cables worked out!
No, you're not hurting your batteries, but I think you'll find it hard to
get them all equalized without manual (or automatic) charging of the
stragglers. These batteries can be brand-new, unbroken-in ones, so don't
consider them "bad" necessarily. As Joe and Rich have pointed out in the
past, you will find that depending on the level of charge current, a
straggler may shift from one battery to another; it won't always be
consistent.
After toasting two Orbitals during less-than-stellar runs at Power of DC,
now I have new ones that will hang out below 14V when the rest of the
batteries are between 14.6 and 14.8V. Without breaking them in, you can't
expect them to play nicely with the rest of the older batteries.
When there are significant differences between the states of health of the
batteries in the pack, as there inevitably will be, properly working regs
connected to your PFC-20 will still ensure that you don't _overcharge_ any
battery. An active, one-at-a-time battery charging system such as Lee's
Battery Balancer will more rapidly bring all batteries in line with one
another. Without one, though, you can use the regs to identify those
batteries that haven't reached their charging setpoints (red LEDs), measure
these batteries with a multimeter to find the ones with the lowest voltage,
then manually charge these to bring them in line with the others. Of course
you'll need a functioning multimeter and a battery charger for this! Keep in
mind, though, you may not drop all the batteries below the level at which
the red LED lights, so don't just rely on the LED to find lower voltage
batteries. On top of this, you'll find that a battery that's being regulated
to 14.8V while charging at 15 amps might drop down to say, 14.3V as charge
current tapers off to 1 or 2 amps. Then some other battery will be busily
regulating away.
Make sure you measure the voltage at which the reg fires for each battery
and adjust the pot so that they're maintaining the maximum voltage around
14.8V. I've seen some drift and at higher charging currents, this can be a
problem. At times I've seen some of my batteries climbing well above 15V
while charging at 15A or so, and this is a bad thing. I suspect some of the
regs are contaminated since they're fairly exposed, but either way, they're
slow to recognize and react to a high voltage event. At these higher voltage
and current levels, you can vent your sealed batteries (audible
popping/crackling sound).
In general, use a multimeter to verify that the regs are working as they
should. It sounds like everything's working fine, but you want to catch any
deviant reg behavior now before you continue to charge with it for long. By
the way, what switch settings are you using on the charger? I didn't see it
if you responded to Ralph's question.
Looking forward to seeing you and the car down here for Battery Beach
Burnout! (hint, hint) ;-)
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Jude Anthony [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
So it's really just a case of unbalanced batteries. In this case, I intend
to simply lower the voltage set point (as per Ralph's email), drive the car
a mile, and charge again. Then 5 miles round trip to the DMV, and charge
again.
If I can get it to stop running backwards.
I don't have any way to hand charge, but I'm not considering buying a 12V
charger. The PFC-20 had an internal light that was blinking in time to the
next-to-last reg, so I'm confident of the reg wiring (thanks again, Matt!).
I'll do more in-depth testing if I can't get those red LEDs off after 20 or
30 miles, and I'll watch the charging closely until I'm more comfortable
with it.
I may have a working EV today!
Thanks,
Jude
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Nope!
> you just are in Reg HELL!
>
> That means you are doing your first euqlization stage.
> All the full ones are full and banging against the charger correctly..
> and you still have some weak ones coming on to full charge.
>
> I some times fool them and bump the current to clear the last pesky
> red leds. Crank amps to 0, Wait for the voltge sag.. hammer on full
> amps for about 1 second.. the system over shoots them grabs control
> again. This clears the Regs that are sitting at 14 something, and
> change, But not a full 14.8.
>
> If this persist check the voltage on the battery that just won't clear
> it's Red LED.
>
> Yellow... Umm Not gonna See it!. It only lights:
> When A Dip sw 6 is turned on... for AGM equalization. Not recomended.
> I use this to test the RegBuss cable integrity. Neat feature...
>
> Or You have a battery that is below 10 volts and the charger is ON.
> This would be a VERY bad thing to have happen. But...
> The Yellow will only light on a Mk2B when the charger is powered
> up. So seeing yellow while driving is not going to happen...
> Unless... you add the LOW BATT trick circuit, that I have only made 3
of....
>
> So.. forget the yellow while driving, go ahead and play with it on the
> charger... All the yellows should light if they all really have good
> data cables installed.
>
> Oh yea.. other Reg tricks. The little header RT2 right by the RJs, if
> shorted out...should tell the charger that reg is hot. The charger
> should snap back to zero amps in about
> 2.5 seconds. Do this on the last Reg.. this checks that the Hot Reg Opto
> and signal lines are compitent to the charger, and the RT2 short tests
> the Low batt lines.
> the other lines are power and gnd.. clearly if the led and the hot reg
> sginal are active... Pwr and GND are also.
>
> Get a meter on those last to clear Red LEDs... they could be trouble.
> hand charge to 14.8 and less than 2 amps if you can. this should drop
> them into line with the rest of the fully charged pack.
>
> Gotta go..
> I have Spiffy Manzanita Micro Charging systems sticker ready.. In
Seattle...
> There goes the afternoon.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:18 AM
> Subject: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
>
>
>
>> It's been a disappointing day.
>>
>> I finally hooked everything up. That was cool. I only electrocuted
>> myself once, probably because my converter is a Todd, so it's always
>> ready to draw some current. Very minor.
>>
>> I roasted a voltmeter trying to measure the resistance of the
>> emergency circuit breaker (to figure out why I electrocuted myself)
>> with all the batteries hooked up. More sparks! More knowledge. I
>> will learn from these mistakes.
>>
>> My 12V battery was nearly dead. I had very weak lights, until I
>> closed the emergency circuit breaker. Then everything was nice and
bright.
>> Probably that converter doing its job. Unfortunately, several of my
>> Rudman MK2B regulators immediately reported undervoltage, but that's
>> no biggie.
>>
>> But I couldn't get the wheels to spin. That was the big
>> disappointment. But I figured, hey, my batteries have been sitting
>> on the garage floor for nearly four weeks. Maybe they're too weak to
>> power the Curtis 1231C.
>>
>> This is my first attempt to charge an EV. I tried to calibrate the
>> PFC-20, according to its instructions. Without a voltmeter, I
>> thought I'd have some serious problems. But then I remembered my
>> eMeter. It showed 147V, and this is a 144V pack of 12 YellowTops.
>> Maybe they aren't as dead as I thought. I figured charging them was
>> still a good idea, so I carried on.
>>
>> The eMeter reports between -9 and -12 amps, which seems to indicate
>> good behavior. I'm charging from standard house current. After
>> about five minutes of adjusting the voltage upwards, the pack was at
>> 160V or so, and the first regulator came on. I turned down the
>> current a bit to get it to turn off, and kept adjusting the voltage up.
It came on quickly.
>> I decided to leave it there and allow charging to continue, since I
>> hadn't seen the yellow limit light lately.
>>
>> After about 30 minutes, another regulator started blinking green. An
>> hour and a half later, a few of the red ones have started blinking
>> green. There are still four red ones left, but the others seem happy.
>>
>> It's the charger that's bothering me. All the blinking regulators
>> stopped at once, and the charger started flashing the blue timer
>> light without the yellow limit light. The manual seems to indicate
>> that means a regulator went over its max temp or something and the
>> charger started a timeout. It keeps happening every ten minutes or so,
though.
>>
>> None of the regulators gets a yellow lamp, at least as far as I can
>> see; does the RegBus prevent that?
>>
>> It's been nearly four hours now, so I turned down the current again
>> and turned the voltage up a bit. I won't let it go over 180V, but I
>> would like those red LEDs to turn off and get the regulators all
>> blinking green. I've still got three red ones.
>>
>> I was expecting a quick ramp-up to 180V, followed by a finishing
>> charge. I'm getting this ten-minute pulsing. Is this expected
>> behavior for the calibration charge? Am I making another mistake?
>> Have I ($DEITY forbid) already murdered my first pack???
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Jude Anthony
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> $2050 for a group 24 sized battery
Wow! Last price I heard was $1600 per battery. Unfortunately I did not
write down the source.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Frederick
Sent: July 28, 2006 8:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Want to build a sporty EV
OK, you make good points, now for another question. Can you charge these
batteries while the car is running? I think about 25 kw would keep a slick
car running down the level highway. I am thinking the electric drive can
launch the car, and a small IC engine running on whatever (gas, nat gas,
hydrogen, etc), can give it unlimited range. I think the engine/generator
will weigh less than 150 mile range of batteries. I can't wait for the
Li-Ion batteries to come down in price. I got a quote from Valence in
Austin, Tx, and it was $2050 for a group 24 sized battery.
Mark Frederick
12970 Earhart Ave. Suite 110
Auburn, CA 95602
Cell 530-277-1985
Office 530-887-1984 ex 105
Fax 530-887-1986
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV
Hello to All,
Mark Frederick wrote:
>Is cost the only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The
>Siemens
AC motors are
>available...it just seems like a good solution.
>
In the context of this thread, building a sporty EV, how are the Siemens AC
motor/inverter combos a 'good solution'? AC does bring a small efficiency
gain (about 3%), regen, and few unique features, but in most people's minds
none of these have anything to do with a 'sporty EV'. In the context of
this thread, how does 135 kw even remotely compare to the 400-500 kw of
power provided by a Zilla Z2K & DC motor system?
>What am I missing?
You're missing one of the biggest allures for a fun, sporting car....POWER!
The AC drives that most can afford (so yes, it's also
cost) run up to $10,000 for a mere ~135 kw of power. Which would you rather
have, if your objective is to have slam-you-in-the-seat power and 0-60 quick
enough to embarrass muscle cars, hot tweaked ricer imports, and even exotica
cars....135 kw for $10,000, or 400 kw for $8000? Let's put it another
way....in the same car with the same battery pack size, weight, and voltage,
and keeping in mind that we are seeking to have fun in this proposed sporty
car, which would you rather have...0-60 in 9 seconds like a 4 cylinder
automatic economy car or a fat and lazy SUV, or 0-60 in a scorching 4
seconds like a 500+ hp Viper? Which sounds more 'sporty' to you?
Drop the AC price range to, say $6000 and you get about 65 kw, but for just
$4000 you can use a Zilla Z1K and a 9 inch DC motor and make 170 kw, nearly
three times the power for 2/3 the price. The AC system is forced to use a
high voltage pack (or you get very little power) but the DC system will
allow you to run a lower voltage, high current pack.
Using identical vehicles (other than the power train choice) the AC one goes
0-60 in 14-15 seconds, the DC one goes 0-60 in 6-7 seconds....one has all
the acceleration passion of Geo Metro or a VW bus, the other that of a hairy
chested V8 Camaro or a tire shredding Plymouth Road Runner. Again, which one
is more 'sporty'?
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> You're missing one of the biggest allures for a fun, sporting
> car....POWER! The AC drives that most can afford (so yes, it's
> also cost) run up to $10,000 for a mere ~135 kw of power.
I've got to say, that with the performance that 45kW peak battery power
(measured) in my EV presently allows, a "mere" 135kW sounds pretty darn
attractive! ;^>
I'm hoping that an eventual upgrade to a Z1K (for about 100kW peak
battery power) will endow it with a measure of that neck-snapping off
the line torque (though it presently takes off just fine once it winds
up a bit), but I suspect anything more will be too much for my poor
stock drivetrain.
> Drop the AC price range to, say $6000 and you get about 65
> kw, but for just $4000 you can use a Zilla Z1K and a 9 inch
> DC motor and make 170 kw, nearly three times the power for
> 2/3 the price.
> Using identical vehicles (other than the power train choice)
> the AC one goes 0-60 in 14-15 seconds, the DC one goes 0-60
> in 6-7 seconds....one has all the acceleration passion of Geo
> Metro or a VW bus, the other that of a hairy chested V8 Camaro
> or a tire shredding Plymouth Road Runner.
I'll have to get out the stopwatch; I'm pretty confident that even my
45kW peak DC system in a Geo Metro/Chevy Sprint lookalike (Suzuki Forsa)
does 0-60 in better than 9 seconds... it certainly has no trouble
keeping up with traffic even though I tend to drive for range.
One caveat I'd add is that it may not be possible to use identical
vehicles other than motor/controller choice - lots of vehicles will
easily handle 65kW or even 135kW but cannot survive the torque afforded
by the 170kW DC system, nevermind a 400kW one! A higher revving, lower
torque motor such as the readily available AC drives might in fact be a
better solution for a sporty conversion of a light FWD such as a Metro,
etc. whose drivetrain simply isn't up to the torque of a low-revving DC
system.
And, bear in mind that a 170kW-ish DC system would require about a 120V
pack with Z2K or 240V pack and Z1K; 400kW requires at least 240V and a
Z2K.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 28, 2006, at 6:26 AM, Michael Mohlere wrote:
I recently read a post stating that using 2 motors working in
series/parallel with a zilla controller means you can do without the
transmission. This would seem to be the way to go, considering that
the adaptor plate runs about $800 vs. the additional motor, which
would run about $1500
Well, it's not really a "versus" deal. You will need some sort of
assembly to hold the two motors together, which is pretty much the same
level of complexity as needed for a tranny adaptor plate. And unlike
the adaptor plates, they're not something you can buy off the shelf -
you'll need to make it yourself, or have it made.
See these pages for examples:
<http://evcl.com/914/adaptor.html> Otmar's dual-motor adaptor.
<http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence> White Zombie's
Siamese 8
- sure, it's an extra $700, but seems like you would be getting a lot
of "bang" for the buck. On top of that, you'd be REPLACING the
transmission with the 2nd motor, so I would think the weight
differential would be close to nil....heck, the motor might even be
lighter.
True. On the other hand, presumably the truck already has the
transmission installed, so taking it out and figuring out where to
mount the motors and how to hook it all up to the driveshaft is all
extra work.
Then you need the extra contactors for series-parallel switching, and
you'll also need a reversing contactor (since you got rid of the
transmission's reverse gear). This adds a few more hundreds of
dollars.
I'm planning an S-10 conversion (haven't bought the truck yet). I
just received my Warp 9 motor, and have the 300V 1K zilla controller
on order.
Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Am I missing something? I
am in the process of my first conversion, and I'd much rather go w/
the 2 motor setup - arguments for/against welcome!
It depends on how much work you want to do. Keeping the transmission
is easier and cheaper. Getting rid of the transmission gets rid of a
whole sackful of parts that can (and often do) break. No more
transmission oil changes, no new clutch disks. No more transmission
gear noise. If you want a drag racer, then by all means get rid of the
tranny.
Another alternative would be to use a single larger motor instead of
two smaller motors. Like the TransWarp 11 which seems to come with a
driveshaft yoke on it already, making it easier to install. Or the
Warp 13, which has series-parallel shifting inside the motor already.
Or get Jim Husted to custom build you an appropriately-sized motor with
series-parallel shifting.
Thanks, Mike
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd just look at what Wayland, Brown & Otmar have done. With the right
rearend ratio you will have performance & efficiency, not to mention
simplicity. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 5:26 AM
Subject: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
> I recently read a post stating that using 2 motors working in
> series/parallel with a zilla controller means you can do without the
> transmission. This would seem to be the way to go, considering that the
> adaptor plate runs about $800 vs. the additional motor, which would run
> about $1500 - sure, it's an extra $700, but seems like you would be
getting
> a lot of "bang" for the buck. On top of that, you'd be REPLACING the
> transmission with the 2nd motor, so I would think the weight differential
> would be close to nil....heck, the motor might even be lighter.
>
> I'm planning an S-10 conversion (haven't bought the truck yet). I just
> received my Warp 9 motor, and have the 300V 1K zilla controller on order.
>
> Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Am I missing something? I am in
> the process of my first conversion, and I'd much rather go w/ the 2 motor
> setup - arguments for/against welcome!
>
> Thanks, Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you get me more info on the AC EV that does low 11 sec times with only 700
amps.
The Tzero is only in mid 13s and costs between a Porshe and Ferrari.
Thanks
Ezesport
Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
racer has to have a good charger too. A major benefit of an AC system
is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
duty as a charger. A 20kw charger. All of the brands of AC systems
that I've worked on do this. What's that worth? About the same as a
PFC20 I'd guess. That makes the cost gap between AC and DC closer yet.
The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
there. But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
sane, simple box with some adjustability that sources 400kw+ peak and
a built in charger as a bonus. I want to make a brain dead AC system
that bolts into my Dolphin box so I can race again. Baylands has been
closed a long time.
For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long. ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
long. Literally for hours on end. AC motors do not have brushes and
all the assorted headaches. If you want to run more voltage you
just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics. That's
a drag racers wet dream.
The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
that can source 2000 amps. A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
second vehicle. How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
With a 1000 amp pack requirement, suddenly a guy is not stuck with
YT's or Orbitals. Now he can run Nimh or nicads that are far lighter.
So either make a pack with still more amp hours in the same space or
just run a lighter vehicle.
Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
the shop. See, AC vehicles have very high built in efficiency, so they
not only conserve on what-hours per mile but also on Dollars per mile.
Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship ;)
If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is today
for many folks. A single person could also do the same thing and make
a reliable AC system.
This is how I see AC over DC. AC looses for now due to cost. But
that's not because it's that expensive to make. It's because of the
economy of scale. If AC systems were as common as DC systems, this
thread would never have happened.
Mike
PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC systems
are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Mark Frederick wrote:
>
> >Is cost the only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The
Siemens AC motors are
> >available...it just seems like a good solution.
> >
>
> In the context of this thread, building a sporty EV, how are the
Siemens
> AC motor/inverter combos a 'good solution'? AC does bring a small
> efficiency gain (about 3%), regen, and few unique features, but in most
> people's minds none of these have anything to do with a 'sporty EV'.
In
> the context of this thread, how does 135 kw even remotely compare to
the
> 400-500 kw of power provided by a Zilla Z2K & DC motor system?
>
> >What am I missing?
>
>
>
> You're missing one of the biggest allures for a fun, sporting
> car....POWER! The AC drives that most can afford (so yes, it's also
> cost) run up to $10,000 for a mere ~135 kw of power. Which would you
> rather have, if your objective is to have slam-you-in-the-seat power
and
> 0-60 quick enough to embarrass muscle cars, hot tweaked ricer imports,
> and even exotica cars....135 kw for $10,000, or 400 kw for $8000? Let's
> put it another way....in the same car with the same battery pack size,
> weight, and voltage, and keeping in mind that we are seeking to have
fun
> in this proposed sporty car, which would you rather have...0-60 in 9
> seconds like a 4 cylinder automatic economy car or a fat and lazy SUV,
> or 0-60 in a scorching 4 seconds like a 500+ hp Viper? Which sounds
more
> 'sporty' to you?
>
> Drop the AC price range to, say $6000 and you get about 65 kw, but for
> just $4000 you can use a Zilla Z1K and a 9 inch DC motor and make 170
> kw, nearly three times the power for 2/3 the price. The AC system is
> forced to use a high voltage pack (or you get very little power) but
the
> DC system will allow you to run a lower voltage, high current pack.
> Using identical vehicles (other than the power train choice) the AC one
> goes 0-60 in 14-15 seconds, the DC one goes 0-60 in 6-7 seconds....one
> has all the acceleration passion of Geo Metro or a VW bus, the other
> that of a hairy chested V8 Camaro or a tire shredding Plymouth Road
> Runner. Again, which one is more 'sporty'?
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
---------------------------------
See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Or the Warp 13, which has series-parallel shifting inside the motor
already.
If all other things are held equal, which has more torque and power:
- two 9" warps mechanically in series
- one 13" warp
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: July 28, 2006 10:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
On Jul 28, 2006, at 6:26 AM, Michael Mohlere wrote:
> I recently read a post stating that using 2 motors working in
> series/parallel with a zilla controller means you can do without the
> transmission. This would seem to be the way to go, considering that
> the adaptor plate runs about $800 vs. the additional motor, which
> would run about $1500
Well, it's not really a "versus" deal. You will need some sort of assembly
to hold the two motors together, which is pretty much the same level of
complexity as needed for a tranny adaptor plate. And unlike the adaptor
plates, they're not something you can buy off the shelf - you'll need to
make it yourself, or have it made.
See these pages for examples:
<http://evcl.com/914/adaptor.html> Otmar's dual-motor adaptor.
<http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence> White Zombie's Siamese 8
> - sure, it's an extra $700, but seems like you would be getting a lot
> of "bang" for the buck. On top of that, you'd be REPLACING the
> transmission with the 2nd motor, so I would think the weight
> differential would be close to nil....heck, the motor might even be
> lighter.
True. On the other hand, presumably the truck already has the transmission
installed, so taking it out and figuring out where to mount the motors and
how to hook it all up to the driveshaft is all extra work.
Then you need the extra contactors for series-parallel switching, and you'll
also need a reversing contactor (since you got rid of the transmission's
reverse gear). This adds a few more hundreds of dollars.
>
> I'm planning an S-10 conversion (haven't bought the truck yet). I
> just received my Warp 9 motor, and have the 300V 1K zilla controller
> on order.
>
> Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Am I missing something? I
> am in the process of my first conversion, and I'd much rather go w/
> the 2 motor setup - arguments for/against welcome!
It depends on how much work you want to do. Keeping the transmission is
easier and cheaper. Getting rid of the transmission gets rid of a whole
sackful of parts that can (and often do) break. No more transmission oil
changes, no new clutch disks. No more transmission gear noise. If you want
a drag racer, then by all means get rid of the tranny.
Another alternative would be to use a single larger motor instead of two
smaller motors. Like the TransWarp 11 which seems to come with a driveshaft
yoke on it already, making it easier to install. Or the Warp 13, which has
series-parallel shifting inside the motor already.
Or get Jim Husted to custom build you an appropriately-sized motor with
series-parallel shifting.
>
> Thanks, Mike
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon, it sounds like your Insight is more than stock.
Are you going to be at PIR on Saturday with it? I
don't know if I can make it, but it would be fun to
meet you and see your Insight and the others run. Did
you get my responce to your query awhile back? Dan Eyk
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't
> need a battery pack
> >that can source 2000 amps. A 1000 amp AC system
> would be a sub 10
> >second vehicle. How do I know this? Because the
> fast AC systems now
> >are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the
> low 11's.
>
>
> Wow, I have been to a lot of EV drag races and I've
> never seen one run this
> fast nor have I seen an AC system on the track that
> could beat my Honda
> Insight. I know of exactly 3 EV drag racers that
> have run 11's or lower and
> they were all DC powered. What track do you go to
> to see these 11 second AC
> machines?
>
> damon
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I'd just look at what Wayland, Brown & Otmar have done.
> With the right rearend ratio you will have performance
> & efficiency, not to mention simplicity.
Don't forget that Otmar is actually using dual 8" motors *and* a
transaxle. I seem to recall him posting that even with the dual motors
and series/parallel shifting he finds that leaving the tranny in one
gear (as would be the case with dual motors & no tranny) results in
*reduced* efficiency vs shifting.
Rich Brown used a Gear Vendors overdrive unit, which I believe gave him
the equivalent of a 2-speed tranny: 1:1 direct, and 0.76:1 OD. He used
2 motors, but with a DCP1200 controller he didn't have the automatic
series/parallel switching afforded by today's Zilla/Hairball team.
Another successful 2-motor pioneer is Rod Wilde and his Maniac Mazda:
dual 9" motors and a Powerglide tranny. He's run multiple controllers
in the past, and I see on the EV Album that a pair of Godzilla's may now
be under the hood. I don't know if he does now, or has ever, run series
parallel switching of the motors.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yo Seth!!
I am still here!!
The PiPrius Kits are being made as we speak.
In Fact I have two new orders for the PiPrius Kits.
So I am back to high Gear on them.
We are starting the production turn of Battery box and gear. It better get
cost effective and fast!
My system WILL work with flooded PbLa.. I just don't know why you would ever
go there??
Cheap is one thing, The mess is what I won't tollerate in My EVs.
I have a bone to pick with the OTHER PHEV guys.. I know they have $9000 to
$12,000 worth of Lion chemistry on board.. OK, But the real cost of the kits
is the interfacing Battery boxes and
CANview computers.. and that costs the same as my kit does. So the hardware
Cost is about $5000 in Charger, Relay box, CAN view, All the Andersons The
TIG welded Battery box the LEXAN covers and the other stuff that make for a
Profesional level kit.
Note this does not include the cost of the batteries... THAT is another
thing altogether.
The BMS... for lead Acid is a Set of MK3 Regs, With a Lion kit.. it's either
what comes with them..or you have to make your own. Nobody it talking about
the cost of that. As I recall the BMS from Valence is not cheap..or fool
proof.
So.. Beware the idea of the Cheap Lithium Based Plugin Hybrid Kit.... they
don't exist....Unless you get donated time and materials.
My Proto is into my check book for over $7700 bucks.... Clearly in
production numbers this better drop by significant amounts!
Yea a Plug in Hybrid is like doing a EV in your Hybrid's trunk! But the car
manufacture has already added the motors.
Keep these ideas in mind:
.... A plug in kit is going to be 200 to 500 lbs of equipment in the trunk
of your Hybrid. One way or the other!
And there is no such thing, in 2006, as a cheap 10 Kwhr Lithium Battery
pack.
A buck a watt hour from Valence
More from A123 or Molicell.
Kokam... I don't know costs yet...
Quality Lead Acid is 35 Cents a watt hour. You can eat 3 packs and
still be cheaper than the cheapest Lion solution.
My system will totally protect the Add on packs, and will allow for %100 DOD
Safely.
Buy a lead pack now..
I promise a Lithium retrofit later.
Teaser... you can stuff a LOT of A123 cells in the PiPrius battery box....
No don't ask.. it probabley doubles the cost of the Prius....
Ryan Fulcher is Getting married.. so.. we don't have any new photos to post.
I have a couple new shots of the battery box, and Ryan has a LOT Of miles on
the Prius Blue.
The last phone call was as he was driving it hauling relatives around with
it.. doing chores with his Plug in Hybrid.
So... it's in service.. like it should be.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:33 AM
Subject: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
> I'm curious how it is going, I was on vacation for a little while and then
> haven;'t found it described anymore.
> Is there some other PHEV discussion thread it has moved to? I like the
PbA
> approach better than the $12,000
> Li systems better than all those other guys are using. My ideal would be
> deep cycle flooded PbA with some ultracaps in parallel to take the peak
> currents, esp. good on regen. etc., while the flooded PbA are cheap and
have
> longer life, etc. Probably not feasible on top of an existing,
complicated
> Toyota system, but if I were to start from scratch ...
>
> Seth Myers
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would not go with the Dana 60 it's way too heavy, the 8.8 is full floating
so will have less drag.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV
> Dana 60 or 8 3/4 ?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Ray Wong said: "Choice on tranny - existing RX7 5 speed. Likely need
> > a race
> > clutch. Rear end?"
> >
> > We would routinly twist off transmission output shafts on our Gen 1
> > "Maniac
> > Mazda" running only a 1000 amp controller. I would be checking to
> > make sure
> > the Gen 2 had beefed up the output shaft if you intend to use a
> > tranny.
> > Remember that the quickest street bodied car in the world used a
> > tranny and
> > that was with the motors only seeing slightly over 100 volts.
> > Something to
> > think about.
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/401 - Release Date:
> > 7/26/2006
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, my stock Insight should turn between a 17.5 - 18 second 1/4 mile. I've
never seen an AC conversion that could beat that rather leisurely pace. One
could certainly be built and possibly has but most AC conversion seem to be
done by non racers.
I'm not sure about Saturday night. It should be fun if you've never seen
the Zombie run before, but I'm predicting no more than 4 runs with at least
3 of those being between 12.3 and 12.6 seconds. By that time I think the
rearend will either totally give out, or the vibration will be causing so
many issues that they will call it a night. If it weren't for the film crew
it wouldn't be back at the track until things had been torn down and gone
over.
Also if I want to ride my motorcycle there like I usually do, I will have to
throw my wimpy old Curtis 1204 back on since the Alltrax just bit the dust.
I also blew up my smaller charger. I haven't ever tried to carry my 20 amp
variac on the back of the bike which probably means relying on sharing
chargers with the racers, which is a hassle and has left me a little low on
charge on previous nights.
Then again, I could just hop in my Insight... and it would be fun to meet
our new Vancouver EV'r, so we'll see. Hey Jay, are you coming?
damon
From: Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:08:00 -0700 (PDT)
Damon, it sounds like your Insight is more than stock.
Are you going to be at PIR on Saturday with it? I
don't know if I can make it, but it would be fun to
meet you and see your Insight and the others run. Did
you get my responce to your query awhile back? Dan Eyk
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't
> need a battery pack
> >that can source 2000 amps. A 1000 amp AC system
> would be a sub 10
> >second vehicle. How do I know this? Because the
> fast AC systems now
> >are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the
> low 11's.
>
>
> Wow, I have been to a lot of EV drag races and I've
> never seen one run this
> fast nor have I seen an AC system on the track that
> could beat my Honda
> Insight. I know of exactly 3 EV drag racers that
> have run 11's or lower and
> they were all DC powered. What track do you go to
> to see these 11 second AC
> machines?
>
> damon
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Instead of tying the two motors together mechanically, on a FWD car, is
there any big disadvantage of hooking one motor to each front wheel's CV
joint, via a reduction gear, similar to what the Tropica did on its rear
wheels?
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 10:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
On Jul 28, 2006, at 6:26 AM, Michael Mohlere wrote:
> I recently read a post stating that using 2 motors working in
> series/parallel with a zilla controller means you can do without the
> transmission. This would seem to be the way to go, considering that
> the adaptor plate runs about $800 vs. the additional motor, which
> would run about $1500
Well, it's not really a "versus" deal. You will need some sort of
assembly to hold the two motors together, which is pretty much the same
level of complexity as needed for a tranny adaptor plate. And unlike
the adaptor plates, they're not something you can buy off the shelf -
you'll need to make it yourself, or have it made.
See these pages for examples:
<http://evcl.com/914/adaptor.html> Otmar's dual-motor adaptor.
<http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence> White Zombie's
Siamese 8
> - sure, it's an extra $700, but seems like you would be getting a lot
> of "bang" for the buck. On top of that, you'd be REPLACING the
> transmission with the 2nd motor, so I would think the weight
> differential would be close to nil....heck, the motor might even be
> lighter.
True. On the other hand, presumably the truck already has the
transmission installed, so taking it out and figuring out where to
mount the motors and how to hook it all up to the driveshaft is all
extra work.
Then you need the extra contactors for series-parallel switching, and
you'll also need a reversing contactor (since you got rid of the
transmission's reverse gear). This adds a few more hundreds of
dollars.
>
> I'm planning an S-10 conversion (haven't bought the truck yet). I
> just received my Warp 9 motor, and have the 300V 1K zilla controller
> on order.
>
> Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Am I missing something? I
> am in the process of my first conversion, and I'd much rather go w/
> the 2 motor setup - arguments for/against welcome!
It depends on how much work you want to do. Keeping the transmission
is easier and cheaper. Getting rid of the transmission gets rid of a
whole sackful of parts that can (and often do) break. No more
transmission oil changes, no new clutch disks. No more transmission
gear noise. If you want a drag racer, then by all means get rid of the
tranny.
Another alternative would be to use a single larger motor instead of
two smaller motors. Like the TransWarp 11 which seems to come with a
driveshaft yoke on it already, making it easier to install. Or the
Warp 13, which has series-parallel shifting inside the motor already.
Or get Jim Husted to custom build you an appropriately-sized motor with
series-parallel shifting.
>
> Thanks, Mike
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
