EV Digest 5694
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Field Weakening & Interpoles
by "EV2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Isolation transformer
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Movie attendance - Orlando
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) instructions
by Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Covered wheels
by Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Home made 3 phase AC motor (was Replacing motor can with lighter
material)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Home made 3 phase AC motor (was Replacing motor can with lighter
material)
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Field Weakening & Interpoles
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Zilla 1K
by "Tim Medeck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Want to build a sporty EV
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Fried SSR
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Fried SSR
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Home made 3 phase AC motor (was Replacing motor can with
lighter material)
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Home made 3 phase AC motor (was Replacing motor can with
lighter material)
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) ev - range analysis
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) (no subject)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Interesting article on the EV1 and customer support...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Birth of "Silent E", complete with harrowing experiences
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done 11.5 seconds.
The TZero hit low 13's with lead acid. With lithium it's a 12's car due
to losing around 500lbs in lead weight. The only reason the Tzero can't
do 11's is because of gearing. The way it's geared the motor has to be
electronically limited to 90 mph. Add another gear with the same 150 kw
and it hits 11's easily. The X1 has the same set up. The X1 and the
T-zero have the distinct disadvantage of not having slicks. That would
rocket the X1 into the 10's and under 2.9 second 0-60 times so said Ian
Wright to me personally. All on 165kw. Don't forget they get their
power from the volts too. 300-400 volts times 700 amps is up to 280kw
peak, not sustained. I've personally watched the 100kw version sustain
400 amps at 336 volts. That's 135kw. These numbers are easily altered
via the software.
Of course they cost alot, they are prototypes. Very sophistcated
prototypes. However, what makes them move all those watts instantly is
very simple, just like in Otmar's setup. Rows of IGBT's for each phase.
The controls side can be as complex as you have the money for. But for
drag racing I don't see any reason to do that. A simple box that just
needs a potbox, battery connections, motor output, and maybe a tach
connection.
Imagine all of the regen energy at the end of a race. Just that much
less energy to put back into the pack before the next race!
Mike
--- Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can you get me more info on the AC EV that does low 11 sec times with
> only 700 amps.
>
> The Tzero is only in mid 13s and costs between a Porshe and
> Ferrari.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ezesport
>
> Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
>
>
> Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
> racer has to have a good charger too. A major benefit of an AC system
> is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
> duty as a charger. A 20kw charger. All of the brands of AC systems
> that I've worked on do this. What's that worth? About the same as a
> PFC20 I'd guess. That makes the cost gap between AC and DC closer
> yet.
>
> The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
> there. But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
> sane, simple box with some adjustability that sources 400kw+ peak and
> a built in charger as a bonus. I want to make a brain dead AC system
> that bolts into my Dolphin box so I can race again. Baylands has been
> closed a long time.
>
> For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
> Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long. ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
> long. Literally for hours on end. AC motors do not have brushes and
> all the assorted headaches. If you want to run more voltage you
> just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
>
> AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics.
> That's
> a drag racers wet dream.
>
> The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
> that can source 2000 amps. A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
> second vehicle. How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
> are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
>
> With a 1000 amp pack requirement, suddenly a guy is not stuck with
> YT's or Orbitals. Now he can run Nimh or nicads that are far lighter.
> So either make a pack with still more amp hours in the same space or
> just run a lighter vehicle.
>
> Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
> drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
> the shop. See, AC vehicles have very high built in efficiency, so
> they
> not only conserve on what-hours per mile but also on Dollars per
> mile.
> Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship ;)
>
> If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is today
> for many folks. A single person could also do the same thing and make
> a reliable AC system.
>
> This is how I see AC over DC. AC looses for now due to cost. But
> that's not because it's that expensive to make. It's because of the
> economy of scale. If AC systems were as common as DC systems, this
> thread would never have happened.
>
> Mike
>
> PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC systems
> are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland wrote:
> >
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > Mark Frederick wrote:
> >
> > >Is cost the only reason every one is talking about DC motors? The
> Siemens AC motors are
> > >available...it just seems like a good solution.
> > >
> >
> > In the context of this thread, building a sporty EV, how are the
> Siemens
> > AC motor/inverter combos a 'good solution'? AC does bring a small
> > efficiency gain (about 3%), regen, and few unique features, but in
> most
> > people's minds none of these have anything to do with a 'sporty
> EV'.
> In
> > the context of this thread, how does 135 kw even remotely compare
> to
> the
> > 400-500 kw of power provided by a Zilla Z2K & DC motor system?
> >
> > >What am I missing?
> >
> >
> >
> > You're missing one of the biggest allures for a fun, sporting
> > car....POWER! The AC drives that most can afford (so yes, it's also
>
> > cost) run up to $10,000 for a mere ~135 kw of power. Which would
> you
> > rather have, if your objective is to have slam-you-in-the-seat
> power
> and
> > 0-60 quick enough to embarrass muscle cars, hot tweaked ricer
> imports,
> > and even exotica cars....135 kw for $10,000, or 400 kw for $8000?
> Let's
> > put it another way....in the same car with the same battery pack
> size,
> > weight, and voltage, and keeping in mind that we are seeking to
> have
> fun
> > in this proposed sporty car, which would you rather have...0-60 in
> 9
> > seconds like a 4 cylinder automatic economy car or a fat and lazy
> SUV,
> > or 0-60 in a scorching 4 seconds like a 500+ hp Viper? Which sounds
> more
> > 'sporty' to you?
> >
> > Drop the AC price range to, say $6000 and you get about 65 kw, but
> for
> > just $4000 you can use a Zilla Z1K and a 9 inch DC motor and make
> 170
> > kw, nearly three times the power for 2/3 the price. The AC system
> is
> > forced to use a high voltage pack (or you get very little power)
> but
> the
> > DC system will allow you to run a lower voltage, high current pack.
>
> > Using identical vehicles (other than the power train choice) the AC
> one
> > goes 0-60 in 14-15 seconds, the DC one goes 0-60 in 6-7
> seconds....one
> > has all the acceleration passion of Geo Metro or a VW bus, the
> other
> > that of a hairy chested V8 Camaro or a tire shredding Plymouth Road
>
> > Runner. Again, which one is more 'sporty'?
> >
> > See Ya.....John Wayland
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I picked those because I read someone said he had a Charger rear end.
Floaters only came in trucks. A floater would be my first choice. Maybe
a well put together Ford 9" too. 4 wheel disk brakes are handy for
stopping ;)
Mike
--- James Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would not go with the Dana 60 it's way too heavy, the 8.8 is full
> floating
> so will have less drag.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 3:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV
>
>
> > Dana 60 or 8 3/4 ?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Ray Wong said: "Choice on tranny - existing RX7 5 speed. Likely
> need
> > > a race
> > > clutch. Rear end?"
> > >
> > > We would routinly twist off transmission output shafts on our Gen
> 1
> > > "Maniac
> > > Mazda" running only a 1000 amp controller. I would be checking to
> > > make sure
> > > the Gen 2 had beefed up the output shaft if you intend to use a
> > > tranny.
> > > Remember that the quickest street bodied car in the world used a
> > > tranny and
> > > that was with the motors only seeing slightly over 100 volts.
> > > Something to
> > > think about.
> > >
> > > Roderick Wilde
> > > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > > www.suckamps.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/401 - Release Date:
> > > 7/26/2006
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go watch the video on the X1 site. I think it was Sears Point since
there was nothing closer to race at. Ian is an Engineer that's all
about facts. He only tells it like it is. Same with the ACP guys. All
totally straight up.
Did you miss the Dicsovery channel show when the T-zero beat the Viper
by many car lengths? The T-zero is limited to 90 mph and it blew that
Viper into last week, 10 times out of 10.
Mike
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery
> pack
> >that can source 2000 amps. A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
> >second vehicle. How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
> >are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
>
>
> Wow, I have been to a lot of EV drag races and I've never seen one
> run this
> fast nor have I seen an AC system on the track that could beat my
> Honda
> Insight. I know of exactly 3 EV drag racers that have run 11's or
> lower and
> they were all DC powered. What track do you go to to see these 11
> second AC
> machines?
>
> damon
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: My message to Gov. Schwarzenegger about Hydrogen Highway
> > The AFC (Alkailne Fuel Cell) uses ammonia (NH3) which the fuel cell
> breaks
> > down into hydrogen. This is a very common product used in
> agriculture and
> > refrigeration. The new type A/C units (new here in the Unite
> States) will
> > replace the normal A/C gases we have now.
> >
> > This is what GM, Ford and NASA is using in there research and some
> of there
> > products.
>
> Ammonia refrigeration is actually one of the *oldest* forms:
> http://www.iiar.org/greenpaper.pdf but using it as an energy carrier
> molecule might be less appealing. How much energy does it take to make
> enough ammonia to create a kWh of end-product energy?
>
> It takes about 1 gallon of NH3 at $0.78 a gallon if you buy it by the tank
> car load. 20 gallons of NH3 will take a full size car 400 miles which
> produces up to 150KW to drive the electric motors.
It takes less energy and production to produce NH3 than it does to wild cat
oil drilling, which I was involved in at one time where you might get one
well out of ten that be productive. Meaning any oil that is over 25
specific gravity. We have thousand of oil will cap off that is less then
25 Sg.
When gas approaches $5.00 we might uncap using a high temperature system to
bring this heavy crude up.
Roland
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Will Field Weakening still work on a dc electric motor with interpoles?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, you can put in 120 volts into the primary with half the voltage coming
out of the secondary.
You should find out what the KVA rating of the transformer. If you need a
maximum of 30 amps, then 120v x 30v = 3600 watts. Sometimes a transformer
are design for 150% over or 3600w x 1.50 = 5400 watts or about a 5 kva
rating.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 7:12 AM
Subject: Isolation transformer
> I've been keeping my eyes open for an isolation transformer and ran across
> this one. Does anyone
> know if this will fit the bill? I intend to use it with a PFC-30. Here are
> the details;
>
> Powertronix BB-40100-B
> input 200-240VAC
> output 180-264vac
>
> Would this unit NOT work with 110?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
Is anyone planning on bringing their EV to the "Who killed the electric car" in
Orlando ? (At the Winter Park 20 theater)
Thanks,
Peter
www.smartev.us
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can someone send out the instructions on changing how I receive the list
emails to a single composite email?
Thanks,
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you miss the Dicsovery channel show when the T-zero beat the Viper
by many car lengths? The T-zero is limited to 90 mph and it blew that
Viper into last week, 10 times out of 10.
Mike
In the 1/4 mile? I have not seen the show. I was under the impression that
all the "T-zero beats the socks off such and such sports car videos" were
run on a less than 1/4 mile track. I don't see how they could hold off a
Viper if they top out at 90mph. It seems to me that Viper would reel them
back in at the end of the track, and don't give me it's the gearing
nonsense, because it is that same gearing that allows them the early lead.
I also fail to see how pointing at AC cars that deliver the specs that you
reference which cost 100's of thousands of dollars translates into you being
able to build a 10 sec AC car, unless you have a much larger bank account
than most on this list. I've heard many people on this list talk about how
easy it would be to build an EV (AC or DC) that can make it down the track
in such and such amazing time, and I have spent time next to those in the
pits trying to get it down. Let's just say that it is much easier to type
10 seconds then it is to race 10 seconds or 11 or 12 or 13 or 14 for that
matter. I just hope that if you do build a 10 second AC car that you will
bring it to Portland some time so that I can see it run. That would be one
sweet machine :-)
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Answers to a question like this can perhaps best be found at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
These folks deal with aerodynamics alot.
I haven't seen "qualitative or quantitative data" but a lot of anecdotal
stories.
Don
Martin K wrote:
Does anyone have qualitative or quantitative data on how much power a
small car can save by having covered wheel wells for example, the
Honda Insight, and maybe a less aerodynamic car like a Cavalier?
What about smooth hub-caps like some bicycle racers used to (do?) use?
--
Martin K
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think there are
videos out there as I recall. Google it. It's a riot to watch. The F16
flyboy was getting miffed Tom Gage told me.
Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most simple part.
These AC car makers are making world class machines. I could sell
everything I own and not afford that. But I can take the DC tact and
make an AC system that is just as dumb as a box of rocks. The model
aircraft crowd has had AC hardware for years. Not the power level
racers need, but still a proven track record. What would stop us from
making a 100kw prototype? I'm a old gearhead that ran big block Mopars
for 25 years. I'm no EE. But a barebones AC system is just not that
hard.
For instance, Intersil makes a chip, HIP4081, that many vendors use to
power brushed dc motors for Battlebots. This chip rocks. Controls the
fets very nicely. Intersil also makes a 3 phase version. HIP4086. It's
good for up to 90 or 95 volts. That chip would make a great prototype
ac system that would power a motorcylce. From there on it takes a
different approach. Instead of a neat chip making the 3 phases, you do
it with 3 groups of components. That's how my USE Electricar is done.
So are the ACP cars. Not rocket science.
I look at this idea as making a Curtis for 3 phases. In fact my first
prototype will probably be installed into an old gutted 1231 Curtis box
just out of convenience.
Mike
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Did you miss the Dicsovery channel show when the T-zero beat the
> Viper
> >by many car lengths? The T-zero is limited to 90 mph and it blew
> that
> >Viper into last week, 10 times out of 10.
> >
> >Mike
>
>
> In the 1/4 mile? I have not seen the show. I was under the
> impression that
> all the "T-zero beats the socks off such and such sports car videos"
> were
> run on a less than 1/4 mile track. I don't see how they could hold
> off a
> Viper if they top out at 90mph. It seems to me that Viper would reel
> them
> back in at the end of the track, and don't give me it's the gearing
> nonsense, because it is that same gearing that allows them the early
> lead.
>
> I also fail to see how pointing at AC cars that deliver the specs
> that you
> reference which cost 100's of thousands of dollars translates into
> you being
> able to build a 10 sec AC car, unless you have a much larger bank
> account
> than most on this list. I've heard many people on this list talk
> about how
> easy it would be to build an EV (AC or DC) that can make it down the
> track
> in such and such amazing time, and I have spent time next to those in
> the
> pits trying to get it down. Let's just say that it is much easier to
> type
> 10 seconds then it is to race 10 seconds or 11 or 12 or 13 or 14 for
> that
> matter. I just hope that if you do build a 10 second AC car that you
> will
> bring it to Portland some time so that I can see it run. That would
> be one
> sweet machine :-)
>
> damon
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Do you think it would be very difficult to make a good 3 phase motor
at home?
You can already buy pretty good 60hz 3-phase motors. You could start
with one of them, and do the "blueprinting" yourself to optimize it for
EV use. Most of the problems are the same as for a DC motor; figuring
out how to set up the motor mounts, adapter plate, and coupler.
With no other changes, such a motor is usable as an EV traction motor if
you would be satisfied with modest performance. You'd want to limit it
to about 7200 rpm, because that's all the better they would have
bothered to balance the rotor. You'd want to restrict the voltage to
about 300vdc pack for a 240vac motor, because they wouldn't have
bothered with better insulation. And, you'd have to accept slightly
lower efficiency than you'd get with a custom designed-for-an-EV motor,
because so many little details were steered in the direction of "cheap"
rather than "good".
Depending on your skill and how much work you are willing to put into
it, you could rewind the motor, install better bearings, and precision
balance it for better performance, higher efficiency, and stronger
insulation.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm new to the list, so hope this is not a repeated question.
Is anyone playing with brushless motors as a hub motor?
I'm toying with the idea of playing with these for a proof on concept for a
full scale project, so any info would be great.
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
What about how a gearbox provides a form of mechanical safety disconnect in
case something silly happens in the drive system.
Cheers
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: 2 motors vs 1 motor and a tranny
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 09:19:34 -0700
Michael Mohlere wrote:
> Am I missing something?
I think you've summed up the pros fairly well, here are a few cons:
- the stock tranny provides a means of connecting the motors to the
driveshaft/rear end; removing it means you may have to design something
yourself and pay for custom machinework to build it.
- you will need to provide some means of coupling the 2 motors together;
even if you find an off-the-shelf coupler from an industrial supplier,
this is another additional cost.
- the stock tranny provides reverse gear; without it you need to invest
in reversing contactor(s) to electrically reverse the motor(s) - this is
another few to several hundred dollars additional cost.
- the stock tranny largely provides a means of mounting/locating the
motor(s); removing it means you will need to design/fabricate some
custom mounts to support/locate the motor(s), instead of just a fairly
simple mount to support the weight of the single motor (and both the
adapter plate and motor bracket(s) for a single motor S10 conversion
with tranny are available off-the-shelf from EV parts suppliers).
- you may need to run a higher pack voltage than you would have
otherwise in order to maximise the benefit of series/parallel switching
(the higher the voltage, the longer you can run in series mode "low
gear")
The two motor approach is definitely an interesting option; the cons can
probably be summed up as additional cost and additional custom
fabrication required to perform the conversion.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
_________________________________________________________________
Research and compare new cars side by side at carpoint.com.au
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F833884&_t=54321&_r=hotmail_endtext&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV2 wrote:
Will Field Weakening still work on a dc electric motor with interpoles?
Yes. In fact, it has fewer issues than field weakening a series motor
*without* interpoles.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kokam is 0.7$/kwh
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
> Yo Seth!!
> I am still here!!
>
> The PiPrius Kits are being made as we speak.
> In Fact I have two new orders for the PiPrius Kits.
> So I am back to high Gear on them.
> We are starting the production turn of Battery box and gear. It better get
> cost effective and fast!
>
> My system WILL work with flooded PbLa.. I just don't know why you would
ever
> go there??
> Cheap is one thing, The mess is what I won't tollerate in My EVs.
>
> I have a bone to pick with the OTHER PHEV guys.. I know they have $9000 to
> $12,000 worth of Lion chemistry on board.. OK, But the real cost of the
kits
> is the interfacing Battery boxes and
> CANview computers.. and that costs the same as my kit does. So the
hardware
> Cost is about $5000 in Charger, Relay box, CAN view, All the Andersons The
> TIG welded Battery box the LEXAN covers and the other stuff that make for
a
> Profesional level kit.
> Note this does not include the cost of the batteries... THAT is
another
> thing altogether.
> The BMS... for lead Acid is a Set of MK3 Regs, With a Lion kit.. it's
either
> what comes with them..or you have to make your own. Nobody it talking
about
> the cost of that. As I recall the BMS from Valence is not cheap..or fool
> proof.
>
> So.. Beware the idea of the Cheap Lithium Based Plugin Hybrid Kit.... they
> don't exist....Unless you get donated time and materials.
>
> My Proto is into my check book for over $7700 bucks.... Clearly in
> production numbers this better drop by significant amounts!
>
> Yea a Plug in Hybrid is like doing a EV in your Hybrid's trunk! But the
car
> manufacture has already added the motors.
>
> Keep these ideas in mind:
> .... A plug in kit is going to be 200 to 500 lbs of equipment in the trunk
> of your Hybrid. One way or the other!
> And there is no such thing, in 2006, as a cheap 10 Kwhr Lithium Battery
> pack.
> A buck a watt hour from Valence
> More from A123 or Molicell.
> Kokam... I don't know costs yet...
>
> Quality Lead Acid is 35 Cents a watt hour. You can eat 3 packs and
> still be cheaper than the cheapest Lion solution.
> My system will totally protect the Add on packs, and will allow for %100
DOD
> Safely.
> Buy a lead pack now..
> I promise a Lithium retrofit later.
>
> Teaser... you can stuff a LOT of A123 cells in the PiPrius battery box....
> No don't ask.. it probabley doubles the cost of the Prius....
>
> Ryan Fulcher is Getting married.. so.. we don't have any new photos to
post.
> I have a couple new shots of the battery box, and Ryan has a LOT Of miles
on
> the Prius Blue.
> The last phone call was as he was driving it hauling relatives around with
> it.. doing chores with his Plug in Hybrid.
>
> So... it's in service.. like it should be.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:33 AM
> Subject: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
>
>
> > I'm curious how it is going, I was on vacation for a little while and
then
> > haven;'t found it described anymore.
> > Is there some other PHEV discussion thread it has moved to? I like the
> PbA
> > approach better than the $12,000
> > Li systems better than all those other guys are using. My ideal would
be
> > deep cycle flooded PbA with some ultracaps in parallel to take the peak
> > currents, esp. good on regen. etc., while the flooded PbA are cheap and
> have
> > longer life, etc. Probably not feasible on top of an existing,
> complicated
> > Toyota system, but if I were to start from scratch ...
> >
> > Seth Myers
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have a Zilla 1K LV in stock? We need one for the Corvair
conversion and don't want to wait 3 months. It is running an Impulse 9 at
120 volts.
Thanks,
Tim Medeck
medeck1(at)msn.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 27, 2006, at 10:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Does anyone know if there is a way to program a controller to prevent
a motor from building up torque to the point of drive line failure?
For series wound DC motors you can limit motor amps and slow the ramp
up rate of the throttle (to prevent hammering.) You seem to be asking,
"How do I take the fun out?"
Paul G.
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--- Begin Message ---
If the Iota is like the older Todd 12v power supplies, that is to say
lacking an inrush current limiter, that would be plenty of cap to
damage the FET on the first turn-on. Wiring has some resistance and
inductance and diodes have some voltage drop but I don't see much to
slow the inrush surge without some type of active or passive inrush
limiter. Sorry
So long as the Iota is set up for a 'float' voltage (something between
13.2 and 13.8 volts) I would think you could leave it on all the time
(except for extended periods of non-use which could slowly discharge
the main pack.) I left the older Todd PC-25LV powered all the time in
the Rabbit Pickup I built (also the Todd PC-20LV in my Buggy - but it
lacks a 12v system battery.) The 12v battery won't live its maximum
life constantly on float, but it will last quite a long time (most cars
aren't very nice to their 12v battery either.)
Paul G.
On Jul 27, 2006, at 5:49 PM, Grigg. John wrote:
It has two 470uF Caps on the input...
Paul G. Wrote:
"I'm going to take a first guess. The surge input current was
exceeded.
Its only around 48 amps for a few milliseconds. I wonder how much
input
cap the Iota has?"
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--- Begin Message ---
Paul G - wrote:
>If the Iota is like the older Todd 12v power supplies,
>that is to say lacking an inrush current limiter, that
>would be plenty of cap to damage the FET on the first
>turn-on. Wiring has some resistance and inductance and
>diodes have some voltage drop but I don't see much to
>slow the inrush surge without some type of active or
>passive inrush limiter. Sorry
There went $90 out the window... :-(
>So long as the Iota is set up for a 'float' voltage
>(something between 13.2 and 13.8 volts) I would think
>you could leave it on all the time (except for extended
>periods of non-use which could slowly discharge the main
>pack.) I left the older Todd PC-25LV powered all the
>time in the Rabbit Pickup I built (also the Todd PC-20LV
>in my Buggy - but it lacks a 12v system battery.) The
>12v battery won't live its maximum life constantly on
>float, but it will last quite a long time (most cars
>aren't very nice to their 12v battery either.)
>Paul G.
I have been hesitant at first to do this for concerns of running down
the main pack. But if I can figure out how to adjust the voltage on the
IOTA from 13.8 down to 13.2 or 13.0 I will feel better about it not
damaging the aux SLA. I will give this design idea a try...
Thanks for everyone's feed back...
John Grigg
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--- Begin Message ---
> With no other changes, such a motor is usable as an EV traction motor if
> you would be satisfied with modest performance. You'd want to limit it
> to about 7200 rpm.
Baldor said my 3600RPM motor is safe to 4500RPM. Don't run any motor
much above that unless you can call the company to verify the safety, or
else can do some kind of safety/vibration testing at home. You'll need
a lot of voltage to get there, though (as I discovered with my
field-oriented control tests). A Dremel at 30000RPM might not seem
terribly intimidating, but my large motor at only 2000RPM shakes the
floor and could cause a lot of damage if its rotor inertia were put to
use. There's a lot of power/energy there. Especially if you're
building your own motor, safety should be of primary concern.
> You'd want to restrict the voltage to about 300vdc pack for a 240vac
> motor, because they wouldn't have bothered with better insulation.
My Baldor Super-E (EM3314T) has "inverter-spike-resistant" windings, so
it can be used with a 450V bus or so. It cost about $650 surplus (but
brand new). It is also 92.3% efficient at 11HP (75% load). This is
about as good as you can get for any reasonable size and price range.
No, it's not a "speed-freak" motor...it's a "we're about to run out of
oil so let's think practically" motor.
As well as keeping the voltage under limit, the temperature should be
cool enough too. Better heat dissipation would be an improvement over a
factory model (adding a liquid-cooled case, for example) and would allow
above-rated operation for a longer period of time.
The AC motor won't suffer so much if the case is thinned. But this
won't make much of a difference in weight (just lift the laminations or
the rotor). My large motor's shaft wasn't hardened; using a hardened
shaft might allow it to be of a lesser diameter, and lighter.
Just a while ago I was also interested in modifying a factory induction
machine. I was going to rewind one (or two) for a lower voltage and a
higher electrical frequency.
This picture is a 3/4HP unit with its laminations removed:
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/motorsm.jpg
I had to tie the case around a tree, and the laminations to my car, and
drive forward in order to get them apart. It worked great though.
This is a picture before I removed the wires:
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/rewind.jpg
It shows my discovery of the winding pattern, and my plan for the redo.
Each of the 36 pole pieces has about 90 turns (or 90 wires in each hole,
rather).
The magnetic flux density is not a sinusoid for this four-pole (1800RPM)
three-phase motor. The following graph shows the actual pattern versus
motor angle:
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/windings.gif
I also hoped to rewind my large 15HP motor to be one-quarter of the
original voltage. This is a picture from along its axis,
photo-enhanced:
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/p5260005.jpg
Notice how it looks almost identical to the 3/4HP unit. There are the
same number of pole pieces also. Finally, notice how much wire is
there.
I gave up on rewinding the 3/4HP with thicker rectangular wire because
it wouldn't bend willingly. I could use something like paralleled 16
AWG (~24 AWG originally), but I've kind of decided against rewinding at
all because of recommendations from my power electronics peers. But
I'll sell the motor pieces for $10 plus shipping to any takers...it
would make a great experiment! I also have that rectangular wire for
sale, since I don't need it now.
My current philosophy is to leave my Baldor EM3314T as is, and build a
quadruple boost-converter to make enough voltage from the batteries. A
higher-voltage motor, in general, more easily allows PFC charging. But
I would be happy to follow a project that makes a "better" motor, and I
might even want to buy one.
- Arthur
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--- Begin Message ---
> Is anyone playing with brushless motors as a hub motor?
My Solar Car Team is using a New Generation Motors 10kW unit for the
rear-drive of a three-wheel vehicle. We haven't mounted it yet, though.
The motor was $8000 originally, and the controller about $4000. Somehow
the motor got damaged, even though we've never had a car, so it took a
few hundred dollars to get back to where we started. I wouldn't
recommend this company, personally...I think they're inexperienced. The
controller is acceptable but complicated, and the motor wiring is
sloppy. The motor does include an air-gap adjustment knob.
> I'm toying with the idea of playing with these for a proof on concept for a
> full scale project, so any info would be great.
I have the perfect thing for that:
http://www.brigarelectronics.com/
Click on motors, then find "4118s-62-07" which is a "1.8 deg 24vdc step
motor" for only $4.95!
I ordered six of these for my homebuilt CNC mill's axes. They have a
lot of torque and produce *beautiful* sine waves when they're driven, 90
degrees out of phase. This is basically identical to something you
could spend a lot more money for. I would *strongly* suggest it for
anyone who wants to try brushless-DC at a low RPM. Inquire if you want
more details.
- Arthur
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--- Begin Message ---
whoops i left off the constant in my range equation - should read
range[km] = 250 * battery_capacity[kWh] / weight[kg]^0.6
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't.
Haifa 32000 Israel
phone 972 4 8293669
fax 972 4 8295755
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello
I have posted some range analyses plots I did of 700 evs listed at autinev.org
at the yahoo ev website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/ and at evforge
(hopefully)
Bottom line: an empric relation between range, weight, and batt capacity:
range[km] = capacity[kWh] / weight[kg]^0.6
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't.
Haifa 32000 Israel
phone 972 4 8293669
fax 972 4 8295755
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Jul 2006 at 16:04, bruce parmenter wrote:
> back when GM only offered the 40 mile
> Horizon PbSO4 AGM pack
It's a moot point now, but I don't believe GM ever put Horizon batteries in
the EV1 or Impact. I'm pretty sure that the first prototypes used rather
conventional Delphi AGM lead acid batteries.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 28, 2006, at 9:26 AM, Mike Phillips wrote:
For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long. ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
long. Literally for hours on end.
But we already know the power (volts times amps.) All more RPM does is
require you to install lower gearing to get the same torque at the
wheel. Power (horsepower) is volts times amps times efficiency divided
by 746. Power (horsepower) is torque (in ft/lb) times rpm divided by
5252.
AC motors do not have brushes and
all the assorted headaches. If you want to run more voltage you
just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
Not a big problem except at the extreme (ask Plasma Boy :-) Normally
these parts just do their job for a fraction of the effort spent
changing the oil on a normal car. This is true even when pushed a bit
hard. Any specific motor vs. volts and/or amps questions can likely be
answered here by members with experience.
AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics. That's
a drag racers wet dream.
That is a series DC motor and motor amp limited controller standard
feature. Flat torque until you come 'out of current limit' (hit peak
power.) If you want a longer flat torque curve you run a higher
voltage. I suspect you meant a flat power band...
A drag racer can have that on DC too. You just have to turn down the
battery amps (compared to the motor amps.) If the battery amps are set
to 1/2 the motor amps then you will have about a 2:1 rpm range of flat
power. OK, so turning down the battery amps is hard to do! Perhaps it
would be better if the manufacturer forced you too?
In the strait line performance side of things I don't see any reason to
go AC. AC has advantages like regen and a couple of percent efficiency
gain; however, I don't see any in the performance per dollar area! (at
least not yet) If you have any doubts just check out nedra.com and look
for AC records.
Paul G.
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--- Begin Message ---
Want to personally experience electric torque? Rip the skin off your
finger with a drill. That's what my brother did.
Last night (2006/07/27), we figured out what was wrong with the car.
The pot wasn't working. We skipped down to SkyCraft for a replacement
and had the wheels spinning just before bedtime.
The wrong way! We knew Honda engines rotated backwards, but Nathan had
believed his work adjusting the brushes would make the motor run in
reverse. I explained we had to reverse the S1 and S2 connections,
leaving the A1 and A2 as-is, and we got under the car and started making
the necessary changes.
Alas, one of the cables didn't reach its new terminal. We have lots of
cable left over, so Nathan grabbed one that would be long enough and
slid back under the car.
The hole was too small! So he got out and started drilling it bigger
with an electric drill. We don't have a vice, so he just held it in his
hand. He's done it before, but as I watched him I thought, "I'd better
get him some wood to drill into so he can stand on that." He says he
was thinking, "Any second, it'll bite, and then I'll let go."
And that's when it bit. But instead of letting go, Nathan stood there
wrestling with it. Watching him, the words "LET GO!" kept running
through my mind. Eventually, he did; but he let go of the cable before
the drill. It gave him a 3/4" laceration on the top of his left index
finger, with smaller cuts on the sides and bottom. Dermabond and a
tetanus shot took care of the whole thing.
Electric torque is awesome.
He has no insurance, so I paid for the whole urgent-care-center visit.
I'll add it to the cost of the conversion. He regrets not having shaken
blood on the car.
I claim that spinning wheels is the birth of an EV; he claims that
backwards spinning is no birth. Heck, breach birth still counts, right?
So today, after a short half-day of work, I came home to take the kids
to open house and test-drive the EV. Nathan had already arrived and
hooked up the motor for proper rotation. He and I took the first ride.
Except for the loud vacuum pump and the annoying Curtis squeal, it was
fantastic. I'm so excited!
Okay, the air conditioning and heater aren't working. The power
steering is way too stiff to control without a pump. And we had left a
bolt loose on the motor, causing a high-RPM "rattle" from the sparks and
a terrible stench from the burning dip-on insulation. But it was still
an incredible feeling to use something born from my own sweat, and have
it work so well.
After two 1.5-mile test drives with 30 minute charges between, we
decided to go transfer the title and get the tags. The tax collector is
two miles away. We set off, and when we went over a couple of speed
bumps we were just delighted: the suspension is working marvelously. We
may not even need to beef it up!
Then the nightmare took over. The car lurched three times and stopped
dead. We pulled into a parking space 50 feet from a garage (what luck!)
and started checking it out. Nothing looked scorched or shorted. I
called my wife and asked her to bring a voltmeter. (Note to self: stock
one of those and some wrenches in the car permanently.) I found the
loose motor bolt. Then Nathan started lifting the terminal covers and
found a terminal that had slipped off.
When I went to the garage and asked if I could borrow some wrenches for
my /electric car/, there was immediate interest. The guy who came out
kept saying it was "crazy". He eventually brought out the manager, who
thought that the future might be in converting cars to electric. By the
time Eri showed up we were all tight and ready to move.
And move we did! Smoother than ever, with the bolt nice and tight.
Just beautiful. I must say, it's really a lot easier to troubleshoot an
EV than an ICE.
Of course, the tax collector had to ruin my smooth ride. Although the
website says only a signed title is required, the lady at the counter
insisted on a bill of sale. I don't have one. I think I'll try a
different tax collector's office tomorrow.
And thus ends the harrowing tale of the birth of the "Silent E". I'll
be using it to deliver kids to school on Monday for the first day of
school. I'll just have to be unregistered for that trip. And after I
exercise it a bit, I'll start using it for the 10.5 mile trip to work.
We just have to see if I can get a charging space there. Oh well; I'm
sure the Hooters across the street will let me charge. :-)
Many happy electric miles,
Jude Anthony
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