EV Digest 5701
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC vs DC AGAIN?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Problems driving tach with a Zilla
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
4) RE: AC vs DC AGAIN?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: accessory motor control (was Solectria A/C compressor)
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too -
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: accessory motor control (was Solectria A/C compressor)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AC vs DC AGAIN?
by Steve Lacy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: solid state cooler in EV in place of air conditioning?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Tesla motor and controller
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> 368 cars
> 84 trucks
> 81 bicycles, tricycles, and quadracycles
> 70 personal transports, scooters, mopeds, and pocket bikes
> 52 motorcycles
> 30 gocarts and sidewalk cars
> 28 enclosed motorcycles
> 19 tractors
> 16 racers and dragsters
> 16 vans and minivans
> 15 all terrain vehicles
> 14 sport utility vehicles and 4x4s
> 11 other
> 9 boats and watercraft
> 4 utility vehicles, service vehicles, and golf carts
> 3 pushers and generator trailers
> 1 neighborhood electric vehicle
>
1 NEV? Aren't there thousands out there? Do listees feel ashamed to
show their glorified golf carts along side those die-hard drag racers?
P.S. - Otmar shouldn't be included in the "versus" argument, since he
has mentioned making an AC system in the past, but has too much Zilla
demand to play with anything else. Maybe in the future he can expand
to AC and join up with the Madman to integrate the charger, too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, a few questions to make things clear for me. What car uses a
$30,000.00 clutch assembly. I have been racing electric cars for a while and
gas cars as well and I have never heard of such a thing. Please quote the
brand and a URL.
You also state that no DC powered car can beat the X1. Are you seriously
telling the EV community and the world through your post that the X1 turns
in the 10s in the quarter mile? That is what it would take to beat the
quickest DC powered street car. You can't be serious? John has a relatively
slow DC powered street EV from my perspective :-) and I personally have seen
his time slips. My money would be on his car in a drag race with the X1.
If you know the folks with the X1 then tell them they are invited to the
NEDRA Nationals. It would be a great crowd pleaser! I would say it is time
for the X1 to splurge and spend the 20 bucks and get their car timed with
modern technology timing equipment and then show the world their time slip.
You do believe in modern technology, right. As Dennis Berube says: "The
proof is in the time slip"
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John Wayland" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
I bet you said that in one breath too John!
It's clear to me that you are not a fan of technology. Composite
construction, tube frames and AC are not something you've looked into
for racing apparently. In fact you call them silly. These AC companies
have and are using it effectively too. You choose to overlook one
thing, these AC cars want to go hundreds of miles on a charge as well
as go fast, very very fast. Can any DC car make claims like that?
Nope. Never will be able too either.
I don't think these EV companies are missing the boat by going with AC
systems over DC. The common thread is that each new EV company keeps
picking AC systems to run world class acceleration with. There must be
something to these AC systems. But how can they keep missing the
benfits of DC?
You use to own the same type of USE truck that I do? How cool is
that?? Did you know the USE charger can charge any voltage pack?? Did
you know it can charge Nimh or Lead acid? Did you look into that while
you owned it? Of course you did....
Did you know the 20kw charger in the ACP cars is user adjustable on
the dash board for any voltage AC going in or DC voltage going out
from technology that was designed over 15 years ago??
A 20kw charger for $300??
Nobody on this planet can touch that. No extra boxes of hardware to
store at home or in the EV. All built in. Seems to me to be a great
asset to racing. It's part of every AC systems capability and a great
boon for efficiency if weight means anything
The X1 did a rolling start due to the objections of the other vehicles
owner not wanting to toast a $30,000 clutch assy. So Ian agreed to a
rolling start. The other vehicles he raced were standing starts. I've
ridden in the X1 and your not going to beat it with any DC car.
Remember John, if the X1 and Tzero had a transmission that could shift
just one more gear, then their top ends would be far higher. They go
with no gears as it takes away from their ultimate goal of efficency
and lighter weight. Yet they still hold their own against world class
street legal cars.
Keep advancing the cause of DC John. Just close your doors, very very
tightly....
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to All,
Whew...where to start answering all this? Mike, you seem to be zealous
over AC to the point that you are putting a spin on stats. You compare
apples to oranges, then do your best to convince others its apples to
apples. Follow me here, as I take your points one at a time.
Mike Phillips wrote:
>I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
>
Then you would be making a big mistake, and dollar for dollar, you'd
get
your high tech doors blown off by DC...unless of course, you do it with
the silly Wright Speed skeleton 'thing', then you wouldn't have any
doors to get blown off.
>
>
>Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
>racer has to have a good charger too.
>
Already got that with 12 kw Manzanita Micro chargers that we can easily
use on other DC cars, making them way more useful than one that's stuck
inside a high dollar AC car.
>A major benefit of an AC system
>is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
>duty as a charger.
>
These Manzanita Micro chargers can charge 'any' EV's pack, not just the
captive one connected to an AC machine. Last night at the races was a
perfect example. We used Manzanita Micro chargers to charge a 192V drag
bike, a 120V convertible, a 240V 914, a 24V bike, a 360V car, and a 72V
drag bike....even standby 12V batteries one at a time!
> What's that worth?
>
Last night, where the real EV races were, it would have been worthless!
And speaking of worthless, in the case of the AC powered Chevy S10
pickup I had for several months, it also wasn't worth anything. In
fact,
this over-priced, slow as molasses EV ($45,000 back in '98) with its
under-powered Dolphin Hughes AC system with built-in inverter-based
charger, was thrown away by the utility company that got duped into
buying it, because the charger failure took down the entire inverter.
Yeah, great idea there! After buying the over-priced AC truck and
having
such a dismal experience, the utility company gave up on EVs.
>The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
>there.
>
No, I got you on many, many other areas as well...you're only admitting
to the price.
>But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
>sane, simple box....
>
What on earth is sane and simple about anything Otmar builds? His .6
megawatt capable controller is not what most would consider sane...more
like over-the-top, over-built, but certainly not sane! The Zilla and
Hairball are anything but simple...they are advanced pieces of
equipment
that provide tremendous power, flexibility, and reliability.
>For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
>Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long.
>
Where did you get the idea, that all you have to do, is be able to rev
to high rpm's to get performance? The Brusa AC system that was in
Otmar's Sprint could rev to 9 or 10 grand, too, but it went 0-60 in
about a day and a half. Your Dolphin may rev, but I doubt it can even
remotely touch a DC system's performance at 1/3 the cost!
>ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
>long.
>
And yet, when doing an honest apples to apples comparison with my DC
car, that is, both cars weighing exactly the same 2450 lbs. when
powered
by AGM lead acid batteries, they are slower to 60 by at least a half
second, slower in the 1/4 mile standing start drag race by more than a
second (a huge margin in terms of 1/4 mile ET) with their 13.24 ET
vs my
12.151 ET, slower to 100 mph...oops, sorry, in order to get its 0-60
time down it had to be geared appropriately and thus it couldn't even
hit 100 and only ran 90 mph, and slower in top speed than my old
tech DC
powered Datsun that's got rear doors, windows....well, it's a car,
not a
plastic toy.
Even with the HUGE advantage of a mega dollar LiIon pack, my DC car can
still whup the tZero. Looks like all those rpms didn't do sh....t! Ever
wonder what that fiberglass curiosity would do if you took out that
wimpy 150 kw power train, and dropped in the 350 kw power train of
White
Zombie and fed it with those LiIons?
>AC motors do not have brushes and
>all the assorted headaches.
>
Hmmm....the brushes in Blue Meanie are original, been in the car for 12
years, and are still at 60% or so. No headaches to speak of, other than
those caused by my head getting slammed back into the head rests.
>If you want to run more voltage you
>just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
>
>
A valid point when under the extremes of racing, but certainly not
valid
at all for regular street cars.
>AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics. That's
>a drag racers wet dream.
>
>
Actually, it's you that's all wet. AC cars typically have a very soft
low end, that's why they need to be geared down. As the revs go up, the
torque curve rises and eventually flattens out from 2000-8000 rpm, then
they fall off. High voltage DC drives are flat from the beginning with
near instantaneous bottom end torque that stays flat until about 6000
rpm then ramps down, for about the same bandwidth of power as the AC
drive, but with the advantage of the power being available far sooner,
where you need it most.
>The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
>that can source 2000 amps.
>
Boy, the spin is getting thick here! Why do you AC guys have to use
theses tactics to 'try' prove your points? You certainly don't need
2000
amps with DC to easily match or exceed the 100 kw power level of AC, in
fact, run at the same voltage of the typical 100 kw AC system, the
current is the same for DC. Even at half the voltage, you only need 700
or so, not 2000! The fact is, at 2000 amps the DC system simply blows
away the AC system stuck at a restrictive 350 amps. Two cars with the
same voltage pack, same weight, but one DC and the other AC, will have
to draw the same current to get similar performance.
You seem to be parroting what you've been told. AC drives 'typically'
powered at 100 kw do it by using ~300V at 350 amps, where DC systems
typically can do 100 kw at ~150V or so at 700 amps. The AC promoters
'spin' this by dodging the fact that they can't make an affordable high
current inverter that can handle 700 amps for a sensible lower voltage
system, so they simply tout that they only need 350 amps to make their
100 kw of power. The reason for this is obvious to most of us. AC
inverters that aren't in the $20k range, can't handle anymore amps than
this, thus, the only way to make 100 kw of power is to raise the
voltage
high enough so that amps X volts equals 100 kw. DC can do it at half
the
voltage, making for a much less expensive battery pack consisting of
just 13, 12V modules...your beloved AC can't do this and still make 100
kw. What you omit in your apples to oranges comparison, is that a 300V
DC system.... 'surprise'....also only draws 350 amps to make 100 kw of
power. I wonder why you leave this part out? This seems to be a common
thread among AC lovers. Now, to take away your AC spin, let's restate
the above:
The other benefit of DC over AC is that you don't need a high
voltage battery pack
to make reasonable power (100 kw)...you can do it with half the
number of batteries sourcing 700 amps. Additionally, with the higher
performance DC systems, sourcing 2000 amps at higher voltages can make
power levels 4 times higher for the same price as a 100 kw AC system!!
Next up:
>A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
>second vehicle.
>
OK......and where's this 1000 amp AC system that can be had at the same
price as a Zilla Z2K with DC motor? And why do you think a 1000 amp AC
system could even stay close to a 2000 amp DC system?
>How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
>are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
>Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think there are
>videos out there as I recall.
>Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most simple part.
>These AC car makers are making world class machines.
>
Boy, are your facts screwed up! First, the 'cars' you refer to are
nothing close to regular cars. The tZero as already pointed out, is a
toy-like kit car of flimsy build quality that weighs next to nothing
and
doesn't even have functioning doors...yeah, world class! Minus its
exotic $60,000 LiIon battery pack and using lead acid technology like
the DC cars, again already pointed out, it's slower in every regard
than a 34 year old DC powered, factory built, steel constructed
sedan....yeah, world class! How 'bout that skeleton 'thing'?...I refuse
to call it a car! It's not even close to being a real car (a tube frame
with tires) and again, running a mega dollar LiIon battery pack, it ran
a 'claimed' 11.95 only after cheating with a running start, and even at
this, there were no timing lights to make it accurate, just some dudes
with hand-held stop watches...what a joke, and what an insult to those
who take their machines to properly timed tracks and get real time
slips
from a standing start. I have a time slip showing that my car has
really
run a 12.151 ET, and it did it from a standing start. If I were a
cheating man, I could do a rolling start as they did in those goofy
Wright Speed videos, and could probably rip off a low 11 or even a
high 10!
>Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done 11.5 seconds.
Spin again? At the referenced site, did you not see the '~' in front of
the 11.5 second claim? That little squiggly thing means 'approximate',
meaning that they haven't really done this, that they haven't got a
time
slip to prove it, that they are BS-ing! By the way, an 11.5 is what
real
drag racers call a 'mid 11', not a low eleven...more spin? The truth
is,
the best ET they claim to have any witnesses to, is the aforementioned
cheater's rolling start 11.95....give me a break!
>Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
>drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
>the shop.
>
>
Geesh....where did all this come from? Are you really trying to
convince
us that AC is soooooo much better, that it can perform miracles? Or,
are
you just assuming that only AC system can uses LiIons? By the way, I
'do' just charge up and drive home after racing.
My car is anything but race specific, if you're pointing fingers this
way. It's got more range than many everyday conversions, and it's
driven
often. Unlike the Wright Speed you're so stoked about, my car actually
has doors you can lock, windows that roll up and down,
a roof over your head, and full body work....which car did you say was
race specific?
>If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is today
>for many folks.
>
So Otmar single handedly invented electric drag racing? I think he'd
find that amusing!
>Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship
That's correct. It takes years of hard work, creativity, ingenuity,
dedication, credibility, and real documented results to 'earn'
sponsorship.
Mike, you need to get out more :-) If you think a low quality kit car
that doesn't have the average features of an econobox sedan (doors,
widows, etc.) with an inverter, AC motor, and ultra high cost batteries
is state of the art...or...if you think a few twisted tubes with tires
at each corner and exaggerated stats obtained from over-zealous
marketeers is state of the art, please at least take a look at a real
honest effort such as the Tesla. Moreover, fly to Portland at the
end of
next month and take in the Late Night Drags and join in with EVers that
prove their claims using real cars at a bona fide NHRA track.
Mike, you might want to take a more objective look at the prototypes
you
rave about, and ask yourself why the AC systems have to be installed in
minimalist vehicles to get their 'claimed' performance levels, why most
all of those claims of outrageous performance can't be verified with
real NHRA time slips, why during testing they use techniques recognized
by 'real' racers not to be credible (rolling starts, waving of a flag,
hand-held stop watches), and why both the AC Propulsion crowd and the
Wright Speed group have never, ever, shown up at any sanctioned NEDRA
EVent (even after numerous courteous invites) where their vehicles
could
be raced against substantial, production quality 'cars' with what you
view as caveman technology. The answer to most any thinking individual
is obvious.
>PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC systems
>are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
>
>
>
>
You don't need to own an AC system to know all about it. I'd argue that
I have far more experience in AC cars than you'll ever have.
I'd ask this question...."The next time someone tries to sell you on
how
great AC systems are, note that the system is installed in a minimalist
vehicle and that installed in a real car or truck, the AC system dollar
for dollar has inferior acceleration and about the same range per
charge
as a DC system. Better yet, the next time someone tries to sell you on
how great AC systems are, strap him into a Zilla Z2K, DC powered EV,
show them what 400 kw feels like, and scare the hell out of them!"
See Ya......John Wayland
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone.
I have been running into problems trying to get interface my VW New Beetle tach
with the Zilla.
I found the wire that drives the tach (pin 11 - thanks Don) and can drive it to
just under 2000 rpm with a 12 V P-P sine wave. I guess the Zilla puts out
pulses at 1 Volt P-P. (Don't assume I know what I am looking at)
Or that's what I thought I saw in my moldy old scope, in the dark, because I
can hardly see the trace anymore.
Anyway, it looks like I need a circuit to make this work and I think I have
seen it somewhere.
If anyone can help or let me know if I'm on the right track, I would appreciate
it much!
I can build 'em but can't design them.
Thanks,
Dana
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 1 NEV? Aren't there thousands out there? Do listees feel ashamed to
> show their glorified golf carts along side those die-hard drag racers?
There's also thousands of electric boats also, but only 9 listed.
On the Yahoo ElectricBoats forum we have over 1200 members and at least a
couple dozen electric boats shown in the files and photos sections. Few
have bothered to put a page together on the EVAA site. It's not a matter of
shame...just awareness, interest and time.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Yes, it was original Honda compressor driven straight
off the 120V pack by Leeson 180VDC 7.6A 1.5hp 1750rpm
PM DC motor. The type is C4D17FK10C.
That motor was overkill for the job but I didn't know any better
back then - I saw this motor used for that exact purpose and
assumed that's the power needed. The compressor was consuming
5-6A at 120V and didn't even slowed down loaded. That is
well under 1hp, but with larger than CRX's compressor this
may not be the case.
Victor
Maybe my 2HP was just too powerful. I was expecting it to be
self-limiting; how did you control yours?
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John and all :
I tried hard to bite my tongue on this one, but I just have to add a
little bit of my mustard here too.
DC is proven (not to say 'old') technology. True, it might be cheap and
perfect for racing, but, well, the world doesn't revolve about track
times. There are quite a few disadvantages with the available DC
technology, regen braking, overspeeding of motors without load, full power
on failures of controllers, just to name a few.
While all those problems could be dealt with in an DC environment, it
would make it as expensive as AC systems. After a 1 1/2 years of daily EV
driving and a few thousand miles, I am missing a lot of things that are,
well, standard in an AC environment. Unfortunately, and I have adressed
this issue before, nobody in the 'professional' EV supply environment
seems to care. Advanced DC, Warp, jada jada jada. Everybody sells the
same. DC hasn't evolved in the last 10 years or so.
My next EV will be AC. I don't care about track times. I don't want to
shift, I want regen and I don't want to worry about controller failures
in front of a red light facing a busy intersection.
Again, this is just the opinion of a 'Jane Sixpack' EV driver. And with
this, I return the mic to the box at the grand stand ;)
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Maybe my 2HP was just too powerful. I was expecting it to be
self-limiting; how did you control yours?
Jude Anthony
I didn't (if you mean modulating power). It turned on with a regular relay.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
This proves what? Nothing really, just a data point to ponder.
From my perspective, as a noob who's interested in building an
AC-powered daily driver, is that the real issue isn't "AC vs. DC", its
"drag vs. daily driver". There is so much "drag talk" on this list that
I find it virtually impossible to find any useful info for building a
"daily driver," especially when it comes to information about a
(possibly) AC powered daily driver. As I see it, people here are mostly
dissing AC drive systems because they can't tinker with them, and they
can't pump 1000A through them, and they can't get sub-12 or sub-10
quarter miles. I want none of these things, and I think I represent a
lot of people interested in EV conversions.
Its sad really, because this thread will probably drive me (and others,
I presume) to unsubscribe from the list, primarily because of the sheer
absurdity of the whole thing. There's so much bickering and fighting on
this list, instead of coming together as a community around all types
EVs. Its exactly the opposite of what I expected when I joined. (See
the thread where people bash the Tesla for being too expensive for a
great example).
Support AC, support DC, support dragging, support daily drivers, and
support everything inbetween. Support commercial ventures, support
budget homebrew conversions, and support infinite budget custom
conversions. These are all the things the EV community here should be
doing.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Once in a while this tread repeats. I'm staying out for simple reason -
convincing seasoned EVer to go to the other "camp" is like convincing
naysayers that EVs are working. Nearly impossible.
John, with all respect to you, unfortunately, technically you are
wrong. Sure there is no one to spend resources just to
prove you wrong with the time slip, but that doesn't make you
*technically* right. Just not worth it (not to mean disrespect
to your efforts, my hat's off, I just mean there is no one
who will build an AC car just for sole purpose to outdo WZ.)
But Money wise you are correct (today). So, please specify your
priorities when discussing these things.
Yes, proof is the time slip. As you don't need to own AC
system *to know it's advantages and disadvantages for fact*,
you don't need to build an AC drag vehicle just to prove
the point - this can be simulated as far as engineering
interest goes. Pleasing the crowd is different story, not exactly
technical one.
If I go on the track with my 100kW AC system, I'll be running
0-60 perhaps in 14-15 sec. I don't know. You run faster. I loose
the argument that AC systems are better because *my* AC system happen
to have less power than your DC one.
Then, I beef up my AC system. I run 13 sec. I loose again.
You'll say "told ya, DC is "better".
Then, I use latest tech and run 10 sec ahead of WZ. And
you'd say "ah, but you're in >$100k class, what do you expect?
So I loose argument again, just because now technical stuff is
suddenly aside, and the pocket depths competition starts.
How convenient, huh?
You're talking about advantages of the DC motor
having starting torque right from zero RPM (BTW,
AC one may have it at about 20RPM). But conveniently
forgetting all these talks about advancing brushes,
arcing over, flying apart commutators etc. Conveniently,
you switch from the WZ being discussed when power brag gong on
to a much lower performance Blue Meanie to say that 12 year
old brushes there are still 60% good, so brushes are not a
problem. Talk about convincing tactics :-)
If you want top power/dollar ratio today, (all "normal"
e.g. not NASCAR sponsored racer cares about) I admit AC system
will loose.
BTW, DC controller will always loose to the contactor
controller :-). Power, breaking things and cost are priority!
Try it.
So just say it - a DC system a plain mortal can afford
can outperform an AC system one can buy today for the same
amount of money. That is more real statement.
Whole war is nearly always because money get mixed into
discussion of starting torque, RPM, etc.
Tell me if comparable AC systems would cost exactly the same
as DC ones, what people would buy?
If one likes to accelerate so quick that their brains
are left behind at the start line for the moment, fine.
And if he manages to pay for it less, even more exciting.
But when people debate whether AC is better than DC,
it is going nowhere because no one defines "better"
and also rarely saying better *for what*?
No, I'm not building an AC drag vehicle just to prove that
it will outperform DC one, for the reasons above.
If I'd do that, you'd simply put me in different class :-)
BTW, I don't like integration of too many things into
one enclosure, just like a TV with integrated VCR and DVD
player. One thing breaks, everything goes.
What if one likes ACP drive but doesn't like the charger?
He's stuck, can't replace the charger. So is it bad
engineering decision? The answer is "depends for whom
and for what. It's a compromise.
But fixable auxiliary hardware - makes sense. My long inverter has
integrated DC-DC as well as main and precharge contactors.
As a result installation required to connect 6 wires to the
system. And the fact that S10 had unreliable charger because
high voltage tracks on the charger PCB are too close to the
logic ones, is not a fundamental disadvantage of the solution.
And, S10 was never meant to be powerful machine as well
as small BRUSA system in Otmar's vehicle.
Currently 2 BRUSA high torque pancake motors take a
downhill coaster 12 people car up hill with 45 degree
incline at 35 mph. You perhaps didn't know.
Finally, you concluded:
Better yet, the next time someone tries to sell you on how great AC
systems are, strap him into a Zilla Z2K, DC powered EV, show them what
400 kw feels like, and scare the hell out of them!"
Why don't you just short your battery to the motor and
"unshort" at the end of the track? No Z2k expense needed
and more excitement is scarring the hell out of
somebody is all you care about...
You know, you're my good EV friend John. And you know more than
most. Admit, your perception of good and good enough is
not the same as for most. Sport is about not leaving
it alone, you know.
Victor
BTW, I don't think that AC drives are "better" because I sell them.
It's the other way around. Like it or not, you will see more
and more AC choices in future. I'm afraid, there is no much more
room left for older DC technoloty to improve. Bottom
line - both work. Specifics matter for particular application.
One lay agree that DC specifics (+cost) matter for drag racing
application. But this is too narrow application field to generalize
which system type is "better". We've been there before, did we?
BTW, I'll try to make it to PIR at the end of August...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is not possible to make an effective unit.
They are not efficient. All solid state coolers- Peltiers- currently on
the market are only a small fraction of the efficiency of a normal
compressor (HCFC) cooling system. That is evidenced not only by the
products currently on the market, but the calculations on the
engineering data on currently available devices provide a clear picture
of how inferior they are to any compressor cycle.
Their small size is also their downfall. The heat being pumped out of
the cold side is only transported a few mm away. This makes it very
difficult to build an enormous heatsink with effective airflow, and the
device itself readily leaks heat back to the cold side. Some of this
can potentially be solved by very clever applications like water
cooling, but it won't change the fundamental problem that the device
itself does not have a useful efficiency to be anywhere near competing
with the efficiency of a compressor system.
There was a well-publicized school project where they made a car Peltier
a/c system and won a big scholarship prize. They were being rewarded
for their initiative and skill, and probably rightly so. However the
project itself failed to live up to its goals- as per std Peltier
limitations, it takes a lot of power and produces only a very trivial
volume of cold air. Well, the goals of a student magically replacing
the world's cooling technology with existing off-the-shelf devices was
never a realistic expectation. They formed a team, built a project, and
saw it through to a prototype, those are promising kids. Somewhere the
news articles grossly misreprented the accomplishment though to the
point where it's a sort of technological myth.
Danny
Tom Watson wrote:
Hi
Is anyone using solid state coolers in their EV for cooling?
I was thinking(not a good sign)that because of the efficiency of
these and their small size(power transistor sized, except for the
heat sink) and the fact that you could put several inside your
heating system with controls to turn each on individually, they might
be a good choice?
any thoughts on this?
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the motor and controller used in the Tesla? Anybody have any idea?
It appears like the ACP motor based on its RPM range, I cannot tell if it is
liquid cooled or not though...
thanks
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Can you please tell me when and where these AC cars actually ran official
1/4 mile races? All I have seen (and I admit, it is not much) is the
marketing promos for the TZero kit car and the X1 conversion. I have not
seen any official 1/4 mile drag races.
Also, you mention a $300 20kW charger. I am confused, do you mean to say
that someone actually sells a 20kW charger for $300?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: July 30, 2006 4:27 PM
To: John Wayland
Subject: Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
I bet you said that in one breath too John!
It's clear to me that you are not a fan of technology. Composite
construction, tube frames and AC are not something you've looked into for
racing apparently. In fact you call them silly. These AC companies have and
are using it effectively too. You choose to overlook one thing, these AC
cars want to go hundreds of miles on a charge as well as go fast, very very
fast. Can any DC car make claims like that?
Nope. Never will be able too either.
I don't think these EV companies are missing the boat by going with AC
systems over DC. The common thread is that each new EV company keeps picking
AC systems to run world class acceleration with. There must be something to
these AC systems. But how can they keep missing the benfits of DC?
You use to own the same type of USE truck that I do? How cool is that?? Did
you know the USE charger can charge any voltage pack?? Did you know it can
charge Nimh or Lead acid? Did you look into that while you owned it? Of
course you did....
Did you know the 20kw charger in the ACP cars is user adjustable on the dash
board for any voltage AC going in or DC voltage going out from technology
that was designed over 15 years ago??
A 20kw charger for $300??
Nobody on this planet can touch that. No extra boxes of hardware to store at
home or in the EV. All built in. Seems to me to be a great asset to racing.
It's part of every AC systems capability and a great boon for efficiency if
weight means anything
The X1 did a rolling start due to the objections of the other vehicles owner
not wanting to toast a $30,000 clutch assy. So Ian agreed to a rolling
start. The other vehicles he raced were standing starts. I've ridden in the
X1 and your not going to beat it with any DC car.
Remember John, if the X1 and Tzero had a transmission that could shift just
one more gear, then their top ends would be far higher. They go with no
gears as it takes away from their ultimate goal of efficency and lighter
weight. Yet they still hold their own against world class street legal cars.
Keep advancing the cause of DC John. Just close your doors, very very
tightly....
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Whew...where to start answering all this? Mike, you seem to be zealous
> over AC to the point that you are putting a spin on stats. You compare
> apples to oranges, then do your best to convince others its apples to
> apples. Follow me here, as I take your points one at a time.
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> >I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
> >
>
> Then you would be making a big mistake, and dollar for dollar, you'd
get
> your high tech doors blown off by DC...unless of course, you do it
> with the silly Wright Speed skeleton 'thing', then you wouldn't have
> any doors to get blown off.
>
> >
> >
> >Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
> >racer has to have a good charger too.
> >
>
> Already got that with 12 kw Manzanita Micro chargers that we can
> easily use on other DC cars, making them way more useful than one
> that's stuck inside a high dollar AC car.
>
>
> >A major benefit of an AC system
> >is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
> >duty as a charger.
> >
>
>
> These Manzanita Micro chargers can charge 'any' EV's pack, not just
> the captive one connected to an AC machine. Last night at the races
> was a perfect example. We used Manzanita Micro chargers to charge a
> 192V drag bike, a 120V convertible, a 240V 914, a 24V bike, a 360V
> car, and a 72V drag bike....even standby 12V batteries one at a time!
>
> > What's that worth?
> >
>
> Last night, where the real EV races were, it would have been worthless!
> And speaking of worthless, in the case of the AC powered Chevy S10
> pickup I had for several months, it also wasn't worth anything. In
fact,
> this over-priced, slow as molasses EV ($45,000 back in '98) with its
> under-powered Dolphin Hughes AC system with built-in inverter-based
> charger, was thrown away by the utility company that got duped into
> buying it, because the charger failure took down the entire inverter.
> Yeah, great idea there! After buying the over-priced AC truck and
having
> such a dismal experience, the utility company gave up on EVs.
>
> >The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
> >there.
> >
>
> No, I got you on many, many other areas as well...you're only
> admitting to the price.
>
> >But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A sane,
> >simple box....
> >
>
> What on earth is sane and simple about anything Otmar builds? His .6
> megawatt capable controller is not what most would consider
> sane...more like over-the-top, over-built, but certainly not sane! The
> Zilla and Hairball are anything but simple...they are advanced pieces
> of
equipment
> that provide tremendous power, flexibility, and reliability.
>
> >For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
> >Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long.
> >
>
> Where did you get the idea, that all you have to do, is be able to rev
> to high rpm's to get performance? The Brusa AC system that was in
> Otmar's Sprint could rev to 9 or 10 grand, too, but it went 0-60 in
> about a day and a half. Your Dolphin may rev, but I doubt it can even
> remotely touch a DC system's performance at 1/3 the cost!
>
> >ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
> >long.
> >
>
> And yet, when doing an honest apples to apples comparison with my DC
> car, that is, both cars weighing exactly the same 2450 lbs. when
powered
> by AGM lead acid batteries, they are slower to 60 by at least a half
> second, slower in the 1/4 mile standing start drag race by more than a
> second (a huge margin in terms of 1/4 mile ET) with their 13.24 ET
vs my
> 12.151 ET, slower to 100 mph...oops, sorry, in order to get its 0-60
> time down it had to be geared appropriately and thus it couldn't even
> hit 100 and only ran 90 mph, and slower in top speed than my old
tech DC
> powered Datsun that's got rear doors, windows....well, it's a car,
not a
> plastic toy.
>
> Even with the HUGE advantage of a mega dollar LiIon pack, my DC car
> can still whup the tZero. Looks like all those rpms didn't do sh....t!
> Ever wonder what that fiberglass curiosity would do if you took out
> that wimpy 150 kw power train, and dropped in the 350 kw power train
> of
White
> Zombie and fed it with those LiIons?
>
> >AC motors do not have brushes and
> >all the assorted headaches.
> >
>
> Hmmm....the brushes in Blue Meanie are original, been in the car for
> 12 years, and are still at 60% or so. No headaches to speak of, other
> than those caused by my head getting slammed back into the head rests.
>
> >If you want to run more voltage you
> >just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
> >
> >
>
> A valid point when under the extremes of racing, but certainly not
valid
> at all for regular street cars.
>
> >AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics.
> >That's a drag racers wet dream.
> >
> >
>
> Actually, it's you that's all wet. AC cars typically have a very soft
> low end, that's why they need to be geared down. As the revs go up,
> the torque curve rises and eventually flattens out from 2000-8000 rpm,
> then they fall off. High voltage DC drives are flat from the beginning
> with near instantaneous bottom end torque that stays flat until about
> 6000 rpm then ramps down, for about the same bandwidth of power as the
> AC drive, but with the advantage of the power being available far
> sooner, where you need it most.
>
> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
> >that can source 2000 amps.
> >
>
> Boy, the spin is getting thick here! Why do you AC guys have to use
> theses tactics to 'try' prove your points? You certainly don't need
2000
> amps with DC to easily match or exceed the 100 kw power level of AC,
> in fact, run at the same voltage of the typical 100 kw AC system, the
> current is the same for DC. Even at half the voltage, you only need
> 700 or so, not 2000! The fact is, at 2000 amps the DC system simply
> blows away the AC system stuck at a restrictive 350 amps. Two cars
> with the same voltage pack, same weight, but one DC and the other AC,
> will have to draw the same current to get similar performance.
>
> You seem to be parroting what you've been told. AC drives 'typically'
> powered at 100 kw do it by using ~300V at 350 amps, where DC systems
> typically can do 100 kw at ~150V or so at 700 amps. The AC promoters
> 'spin' this by dodging the fact that they can't make an affordable
> high current inverter that can handle 700 amps for a sensible lower
> voltage system, so they simply tout that they only need 350 amps to
> make their 100 kw of power. The reason for this is obvious to most of
> us. AC inverters that aren't in the $20k range, can't handle anymore
> amps than this, thus, the only way to make 100 kw of power is to raise
> the
voltage
> high enough so that amps X volts equals 100 kw. DC can do it at half
the
> voltage, making for a much less expensive battery pack consisting of
> just 13, 12V modules...your beloved AC can't do this and still make
> 100 kw. What you omit in your apples to oranges comparison, is that a
> 300V DC system.... 'surprise'....also only draws 350 amps to make 100
> kw of power. I wonder why you leave this part out? This seems to be a
> common thread among AC lovers. Now, to take away your AC spin, let's
> restate the above:
>
> The other benefit of DC over AC is that you don't need a high
voltage battery pack
> to make reasonable power (100 kw)...you can do it with half the
number of batteries sourcing 700 amps. Additionally, with the higher
performance DC systems, sourcing 2000 amps at higher voltages can make power
levels 4 times higher for the same price as a 100 kw AC system!!
>
>
> Next up:
>
> >A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10 second vehicle.
> >
>
>
> OK......and where's this 1000 amp AC system that can be had at the
> same price as a Zilla Z2K with DC motor? And why do you think a 1000
> amp AC system could even stay close to a 2000 amp DC system?
>
> >How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now are pulling
> >500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
> >Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think there are
> >videos out there as I recall.
> >Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most simple part.
> >These AC car makers are making world class machines.
> >
>
> Boy, are your facts screwed up! First, the 'cars' you refer to are
> nothing close to regular cars. The tZero as already pointed out, is a
> toy-like kit car of flimsy build quality that weighs next to nothing
and
> doesn't even have functioning doors...yeah, world class! Minus its
> exotic $60,000 LiIon battery pack and using lead acid technology like
> the DC cars, again already pointed out, it's slower in every regard
> than a 34 year old DC powered, factory built, steel constructed
> sedan....yeah, world class! How 'bout that skeleton 'thing'?...I
> refuse to call it a car! It's not even close to being a real car (a
> tube frame with tires) and again, running a mega dollar LiIon battery
> pack, it ran a 'claimed' 11.95 only after cheating with a running
> start, and even at this, there were no timing lights to make it
> accurate, just some dudes with hand-held stop watches...what a joke,
> and what an insult to those who take their machines to properly timed
> tracks and get real time
slips
> from a standing start. I have a time slip showing that my car has
really
> run a 12.151 ET, and it did it from a standing start. If I were a
> cheating man, I could do a rolling start as they did in those goofy
> Wright Speed videos, and could probably rip off a low 11 or even a
high 10!
>
> >Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done 11.5 seconds.
>
>
>
> Spin again? At the referenced site, did you not see the '~' in front
> of the 11.5 second claim? That little squiggly thing means
> 'approximate', meaning that they haven't really done this, that they
> haven't got a
time
> slip to prove it, that they are BS-ing! By the way, an 11.5 is what
real
> drag racers call a 'mid 11', not a low eleven...more spin? The truth
is,
> the best ET they claim to have any witnesses to, is the aforementioned
> cheater's rolling start 11.95....give me a break!
>
> >Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
> >drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
> >the shop.
> >
> >
>
> Geesh....where did all this come from? Are you really trying to
convince
> us that AC is soooooo much better, that it can perform miracles? Or,
are
> you just assuming that only AC system can uses LiIons? By the way, I
> 'do' just charge up and drive home after racing.
> My car is anything but race specific, if you're pointing fingers this
> way. It's got more range than many everyday conversions, and it's
driven
> often. Unlike the Wright Speed you're so stoked about, my car actually
> has doors you can lock, windows that roll up and down, a roof over
> your head, and full body work....which car did you say was race
> specific?
>
> >If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is today
> >for many folks.
> >
>
> So Otmar single handedly invented electric drag racing? I think he'd
> find that amusing!
>
>
> >Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship
>
>
> That's correct. It takes years of hard work, creativity, ingenuity,
> dedication, credibility, and real documented results to 'earn'
sponsorship.
>
> Mike, you need to get out more :-) If you think a low quality kit car
> that doesn't have the average features of an econobox sedan (doors,
> widows, etc.) with an inverter, AC motor, and ultra high cost
> batteries is state of the art...or...if you think a few twisted tubes
> with tires at each corner and exaggerated stats obtained from
> over-zealous marketeers is state of the art, please at least take a
> look at a real honest effort such as the Tesla. Moreover, fly to
> Portland at the
end of
> next month and take in the Late Night Drags and join in with EVers
> that prove their claims using real cars at a bona fide NHRA track.
>
> Mike, you might want to take a more objective look at the prototypes
you
> rave about, and ask yourself why the AC systems have to be installed
> in minimalist vehicles to get their 'claimed' performance levels, why
> most all of those claims of outrageous performance can't be verified
> with real NHRA time slips, why during testing they use techniques
> recognized by 'real' racers not to be credible (rolling starts, waving
> of a flag, hand-held stop watches), and why both the AC Propulsion
> crowd and the Wright Speed group have never, ever, shown up at any
> sanctioned NEDRA EVent (even after numerous courteous invites) where
> their vehicles
could
> be raced against substantial, production quality 'cars' with what you
> view as caveman technology. The answer to most any thinking individual
> is obvious.
>
> >PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC systems
> >are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> You don't need to own an AC system to know all about it. I'd argue
> that I have far more experience in AC cars than you'll ever have.
> I'd ask this question...."The next time someone tries to sell you on
how
> great AC systems are, note that the system is installed in a
> minimalist vehicle and that installed in a real car or truck, the AC
> system dollar for dollar has inferior acceleration and about the same
> range per
charge
> as a DC system. Better yet, the next time someone tries to sell you on
> how great AC systems are, strap him into a Zilla Z2K, DC powered EV,
> show them what 400 kw feels like, and scare the hell out of them!"
>
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
