EV Digest 5700
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Fiamp!
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: solid state cooler in EV in place of air conditioning?
by Randall Prentice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Fiamp!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Solectria A/C compressor anyone? A bit of background
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Solectria A/C compressor anyone? A bit of background
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Stats to Ponder!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Cap Based Battery Balancer (Thanks Lee)
by "Lewis, Brian K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) AC vs DC AGAIN?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Rogue battery in string
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) ADC motor on e-bay
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
hi,
Does anyone know how i could get in contact with the owner of Fiamp. I have
tried emailing him but no response. I am interested at how he used 120 Volt
of optimas to power his vehicle and get such good range from the small
capacity that optimas offer. I am still trying to try out increasing the
system voltage of my pack and reduce current draw.
Cheers
_________________________________________________________________
Find lost friends & family online! Search for free.
http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=389&referral=HM_tagline&URL=http://ninemsn.schoolfriends.com.au
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Whew...where to start answering all this? Mike, you seem to be zealous
over AC to the point that you are putting a spin on stats. You compare
apples to oranges, then do your best to convince others its apples to
apples. Follow me here, as I take your points one at a time.
Mike Phillips wrote:
I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
Then you would be making a big mistake, and dollar for dollar, you'd get
your high tech doors blown off by DC...unless of course, you do it with
the silly Wright Speed skeleton 'thing', then you wouldn't have any
doors to get blown off.
Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
racer has to have a good charger too.
Already got that with 12 kw Manzanita Micro chargers that we can easily
use on other DC cars, making them way more useful than one that's stuck
inside a high dollar AC car.
A major benefit of an AC system
is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
duty as a charger.
These Manzanita Micro chargers can charge 'any' EV's pack, not just the
captive one connected to an AC machine. Last night at the races was a
perfect example. We used Manzanita Micro chargers to charge a 192V drag
bike, a 120V convertible, a 240V 914, a 24V bike, a 360V car, and a 72V
drag bike....even standby 12V batteries one at a time!
What's that worth?
Last night, where the real EV races were, it would have been worthless!
And speaking of worthless, in the case of the AC powered Chevy S10
pickup I had for several months, it also wasn't worth anything. In fact,
this over-priced, slow as molasses EV ($45,000 back in '98) with its
under-powered Dolphin Hughes AC system with built-in inverter-based
charger, was thrown away by the utility company that got duped into
buying it, because the charger failure took down the entire inverter.
Yeah, great idea there! After buying the over-priced AC truck and having
such a dismal experience, the utility company gave up on EVs.
The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
there.
No, I got you on many, many other areas as well...you're only admitting
to the price.
But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
sane, simple box....
What on earth is sane and simple about anything Otmar builds? His .6
megawatt capable controller is not what most would consider sane...more
like over-the-top, over-built, but certainly not sane! The Zilla and
Hairball are anything but simple...they are advanced pieces of equipment
that provide tremendous power, flexibility, and reliability.
For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long.
Where did you get the idea, that all you have to do, is be able to rev
to high rpm's to get performance? The Brusa AC system that was in
Otmar's Sprint could rev to 9 or 10 grand, too, but it went 0-60 in
about a day and a half. Your Dolphin may rev, but I doubt it can even
remotely touch a DC system's performance at 1/3 the cost!
ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
long.
And yet, when doing an honest apples to apples comparison with my DC
car, that is, both cars weighing exactly the same 2450 lbs. when powered
by AGM lead acid batteries, they are slower to 60 by at least a half
second, slower in the 1/4 mile standing start drag race by more than a
second (a huge margin in terms of 1/4 mile ET) with their 13.24 ET vs my
12.151 ET, slower to 100 mph...oops, sorry, in order to get its 0-60
time down it had to be geared appropriately and thus it couldn't even
hit 100 and only ran 90 mph, and slower in top speed than my old tech DC
powered Datsun that's got rear doors, windows....well, it's a car, not a
plastic toy.
Even with the HUGE advantage of a mega dollar LiIon pack, my DC car can
still whup the tZero. Looks like all those rpms didn't do sh....t! Ever
wonder what that fiberglass curiosity would do if you took out that
wimpy 150 kw power train, and dropped in the 350 kw power train of White
Zombie and fed it with those LiIons?
AC motors do not have brushes and
all the assorted headaches.
Hmmm....the brushes in Blue Meanie are original, been in the car for 12
years, and are still at 60% or so. No headaches to speak of, other than
those caused by my head getting slammed back into the head rests.
If you want to run more voltage you
just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
A valid point when under the extremes of racing, but certainly not valid
at all for regular street cars.
AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics. That's
a drag racers wet dream.
Actually, it's you that's all wet. AC cars typically have a very soft
low end, that's why they need to be geared down. As the revs go up, the
torque curve rises and eventually flattens out from 2000-8000 rpm, then
they fall off. High voltage DC drives are flat from the beginning with
near instantaneous bottom end torque that stays flat until about 6000
rpm then ramps down, for about the same bandwidth of power as the AC
drive, but with the advantage of the power being available far sooner,
where you need it most.
The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
that can source 2000 amps.
Boy, the spin is getting thick here! Why do you AC guys have to use
theses tactics to 'try' prove your points? You certainly don't need 2000
amps with DC to easily match or exceed the 100 kw power level of AC, in
fact, run at the same voltage of the typical 100 kw AC system, the
current is the same for DC. Even at half the voltage, you only need 700
or so, not 2000! The fact is, at 2000 amps the DC system simply blows
away the AC system stuck at a restrictive 350 amps. Two cars with the
same voltage pack, same weight, but one DC and the other AC, will have
to draw the same current to get similar performance.
You seem to be parroting what you've been told. AC drives 'typically'
powered at 100 kw do it by using ~300V at 350 amps, where DC systems
typically can do 100 kw at ~150V or so at 700 amps. The AC promoters
'spin' this by dodging the fact that they can't make an affordable high
current inverter that can handle 700 amps for a sensible lower voltage
system, so they simply tout that they only need 350 amps to make their
100 kw of power. The reason for this is obvious to most of us. AC
inverters that aren't in the $20k range, can't handle anymore amps than
this, thus, the only way to make 100 kw of power is to raise the voltage
high enough so that amps X volts equals 100 kw. DC can do it at half the
voltage, making for a much less expensive battery pack consisting of
just 13, 12V modules...your beloved AC can't do this and still make 100
kw. What you omit in your apples to oranges comparison, is that a 300V
DC system.... 'surprise'....also only draws 350 amps to make 100 kw of
power. I wonder why you leave this part out? This seems to be a common
thread among AC lovers. Now, to take away your AC spin, let's restate
the above:
The other benefit of DC over AC is that you don't need a high voltage battery
pack
to make reasonable power (100 kw)...you can do it with half the number of batteries sourcing 700 amps. Additionally, with the higher performance DC systems, sourcing 2000 amps at higher voltages can make power levels 4 times higher for the same price as a 100 kw AC system!!
Next up:
A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
second vehicle.
OK......and where's this 1000 amp AC system that can be had at the same
price as a Zilla Z2K with DC motor? And why do you think a 1000 amp AC
system could even stay close to a 2000 amp DC system?
How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think there are
videos out there as I recall.
Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most simple part.
These AC car makers are making world class machines.
Boy, are your facts screwed up! First, the 'cars' you refer to are
nothing close to regular cars. The tZero as already pointed out, is a
toy-like kit car of flimsy build quality that weighs next to nothing and
doesn't even have functioning doors...yeah, world class! Minus its
exotic $60,000 LiIon battery pack and using lead acid technology like
the DC cars, again already pointed out, it's slower in every regard
than a 34 year old DC powered, factory built, steel constructed
sedan....yeah, world class! How 'bout that skeleton 'thing'?...I refuse
to call it a car! It's not even close to being a real car (a tube frame
with tires) and again, running a mega dollar LiIon battery pack, it ran
a 'claimed' 11.95 only after cheating with a running start, and even at
this, there were no timing lights to make it accurate, just some dudes
with hand-held stop watches...what a joke, and what an insult to those
who take their machines to properly timed tracks and get real time slips
from a standing start. I have a time slip showing that my car has really
run a 12.151 ET, and it did it from a standing start. If I were a
cheating man, I could do a rolling start as they did in those goofy
Wright Speed videos, and could probably rip off a low 11 or even a high 10!
Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done 11.5 seconds.
Spin again? At the referenced site, did you not see the '~' in front of
the 11.5 second claim? That little squiggly thing means 'approximate',
meaning that they haven't really done this, that they haven't got a time
slip to prove it, that they are BS-ing! By the way, an 11.5 is what real
drag racers call a 'mid 11', not a low eleven...more spin? The truth is,
the best ET they claim to have any witnesses to, is the aforementioned
cheater's rolling start 11.95....give me a break!
Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
the shop.
Geesh....where did all this come from? Are you really trying to convince
us that AC is soooooo much better, that it can perform miracles? Or, are
you just assuming that only AC system can uses LiIons? By the way, I
'do' just charge up and drive home after racing.
My car is anything but race specific, if you're pointing fingers this
way. It's got more range than many everyday conversions, and it's driven
often. Unlike the Wright Speed you're so stoked about, my car actually
has doors you can lock, windows that roll up and down,
a roof over your head, and full body work....which car did you say was
race specific?
If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is today
for many folks.
So Otmar single handedly invented electric drag racing? I think he'd
find that amusing!
Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship
That's correct. It takes years of hard work, creativity, ingenuity,
dedication, credibility, and real documented results to 'earn' sponsorship.
Mike, you need to get out more :-) If you think a low quality kit car
that doesn't have the average features of an econobox sedan (doors,
widows, etc.) with an inverter, AC motor, and ultra high cost batteries
is state of the art...or...if you think a few twisted tubes with tires
at each corner and exaggerated stats obtained from over-zealous
marketeers is state of the art, please at least take a look at a real
honest effort such as the Tesla. Moreover, fly to Portland at the end of
next month and take in the Late Night Drags and join in with EVers that
prove their claims using real cars at a bona fide NHRA track.
Mike, you might want to take a more objective look at the prototypes you
rave about, and ask yourself why the AC systems have to be installed in
minimalist vehicles to get their 'claimed' performance levels, why most
all of those claims of outrageous performance can't be verified with
real NHRA time slips, why during testing they use techniques recognized
by 'real' racers not to be credible (rolling starts, waving of a flag,
hand-held stop watches), and why both the AC Propulsion crowd and the
Wright Speed group have never, ever, shown up at any sanctioned NEDRA
EVent (even after numerous courteous invites) where their vehicles could
be raced against substantial, production quality 'cars' with what you
view as caveman technology. The answer to most any thinking individual
is obvious.
PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC systems
are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
You don't need to own an AC system to know all about it. I'd argue that
I have far more experience in AC cars than you'll ever have.
I'd ask this question...."The next time someone tries to sell you on how
great AC systems are, note that the system is installed in a minimalist
vehicle and that installed in a real car or truck, the AC system dollar
for dollar has inferior acceleration and about the same range per charge
as a DC system. Better yet, the next time someone tries to sell you on
how great AC systems are, strap him into a Zilla Z2K, DC powered EV,
show them what 400 kw feels like, and scare the hell out of them!"
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did the Math on one of these one time, and unfortunatly an AC Compresser
is quite a bit better.
At worst they are very bad because when not powered they provide a return
heat path so have to be run off variable DC supply (Not PWM unless
smoothed).
Had to put that down as a learning experience......
Regards
Randall Prentice
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Watson
> Sent: Monday, 31 July 2006 7:01 a.m.
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: solid state cooler in EV in place of air conditioning?
>
>
> Hi
>
> Is anyone using solid state coolers in their EV for cooling?
>
> I was thinking(not a good sign)that because of the efficiency
> of these and their small size(power transistor sized, except
> for the heat sink) and the fact that you could put several
> inside your heating system with controls to turn each on
> individually, they might be a good choice?
>
> any thoughts on this?
>
> Tom
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Robert,
Marko is one of my long time, best friends, and I had a hand in the
design and build of this great car. In fact, Marko was at the Wayland
Invitational last night with what was formerly my 'Baby Blue' electric
Datsun minitruck. Marko has kind-of dropped off the planet, email and
EVDL wise, so he doesn't use email anymore. I am always in touch with
him, whether making stuff together in the metal shop, flying at high
speeds in Fiamp, or simply having him juice up one of his EVs here at
the Wayland EV Juice Bar.
If you can send me your phone number, I'll make sure he gets it.
See Ya......John Wayland
Robert Chew wrote:
hi,
Does anyone know how i could get in contact with the owner of Fiamp.
I have tried emailing him but no response.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Don, thanks for this! I could not say it any better than you did. I
think Mike's probably a nice guy, he's just a little naive right now.
For example, he's probably not aware of the fact that I work on and with
AC drives nearly every day for a living, and even teach classes on AC
drive systems. I agree, that when 400 kw AC drives can be had for the
same price as a Zilla based DC system, when that day arrives, a newcomer
to this EVDL might well say "This is an AC list".
See Ya.....John Wayland
Don Cameron wrote:
Speak for yourself! This **is not** a DC list. There are a lot of AC people
on this list too!
The reason why DC is better for performance boils down to availability.
There are more, cheaper high performance DC options available than AC
systems.
If the ACP AC motor/controller was in the $8,000 price range or if Siemens
or MES built an $8,000 400kW system, There would be a lot more AC systems
around.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:17 AM 7/30/2006, Richard Furniss wrote:
The one thing that (I think) most of us need to get the a/c system
up running again is a DC/DC with a very wide input voltage and a pot
on the output to adjust the RPM of the drive motor, which opens the
door for direct drive compressor and easer motor selection.
I think it's called a PFC-20 charger. :-)
Kinda pricey for that application though...
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela wrote:
<SNIP>
Back to the drawing board. I think, the only way to go is to restore the
original S-10 a/c. The DENSO and other electric compressors either run
with a pretty complicated voltage and/or need some special ester in
addition to, or in combination with the refrigerant. I don't know if those
refrigerants would be usable with the rest of the S10's a/c system.
Solectria has (had) 144V compressors, actually normal units, belted to a
small motor. I don't have the mechanical knowledge to 'mate' a motor to an
compressor myself. The examples listed in reply to my original posting
were interesting, though I would have a hard time finding a spot in my
truck to put big motors like that.
Actually, I think there might be a completely unused spot in your
truck that would fit the motor and compressor. How about between the
frame rails, under the cab? The Jet Electica's with A/C mounted the
motor and compressor under the back seat, and the system only
requires that everything be plumbed together so I would suspect it
would work just fine. It might need a splash guard for wet weather
but that isn't a major challenge. What do you think folks?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
A quick note....
How's this sound? On the Zombie's last run of last Night's 'Wayland
Invitational II', after a nearly out-of-control crowd-roaring monstrous
sideways burnout, Tim Brehm powered White Zombie off the line with both
front wheels up, the car twisting and getting crazy mid-air-then
returning to the ground tearing up the track in what looked like what
could have been a high 11 second run, but then he blew up a battery
right after passing through the 1/8th mile marker. Get this....coasting
with no power for nearly an 1/8th mile to cross the 1/4 mile finish
line, White Zombie still managed a 12.9 @ 81 mph!
Can you say, ACCELERATION?
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland'
Plasma Boy Racing
'We blow things up, so you don't have to!'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>People naively think that a flying capacitor balancer is "100%
>efficient" because ideal capacitors have no resistance, and so have no
>resistive losses.
I am not quite that naïve but I did think they would be more efficient than a
light bulb. :)
At any rate this has convinced me not to peruse this path. I will rebuild the
Lee's with better heat dissipation and replace one of the 6.8 diodes with a 6.2
because I have AGM batteries. This is something else that as come up since I
built them initially.
Lee, Thanks for your contribution(s) to this list.
- Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bet you said that in one breath too John!
It's clear to me that you are not a fan of technology. Composite
construction, tube frames and AC are not something you've looked into
for racing apparently. In fact you call them silly. These AC companies
have and are using it effectively too. You choose to overlook one
thing, these AC cars want to go hundreds of miles on a charge as well
as go fast, very very fast. Can any DC car make claims like that?
Nope. Never will be able too either.
I don't think these EV companies are missing the boat by going with AC
systems over DC. The common thread is that each new EV company keeps
picking AC systems to run world class acceleration with. There must be
something to these AC systems. But how can they keep missing the
benfits of DC?
You use to own the same type of USE truck that I do? How cool is
that?? Did you know the USE charger can charge any voltage pack?? Did
you know it can charge Nimh or Lead acid? Did you look into that while
you owned it? Of course you did....
Did you know the 20kw charger in the ACP cars is user adjustable on
the dash board for any voltage AC going in or DC voltage going out
from technology that was designed over 15 years ago??
A 20kw charger for $300??
Nobody on this planet can touch that. No extra boxes of hardware to
store at home or in the EV. All built in. Seems to me to be a great
asset to racing. It's part of every AC systems capability and a great
boon for efficiency if weight means anything
The X1 did a rolling start due to the objections of the other vehicles
owner not wanting to toast a $30,000 clutch assy. So Ian agreed to a
rolling start. The other vehicles he raced were standing starts. I've
ridden in the X1 and your not going to beat it with any DC car.
Remember John, if the X1 and Tzero had a transmission that could shift
just one more gear, then their top ends would be far higher. They go
with no gears as it takes away from their ultimate goal of efficency
and lighter weight. Yet they still hold their own against world class
street legal cars.
Keep advancing the cause of DC John. Just close your doors, very very
tightly....
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Whew...where to start answering all this? Mike, you seem to be zealous
> over AC to the point that you are putting a spin on stats. You compare
> apples to oranges, then do your best to convince others its apples to
> apples. Follow me here, as I take your points one at a time.
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> >I know I sure want a performance EV. But I would not do it with DC.
> >
>
> Then you would be making a big mistake, and dollar for dollar, you'd
get
> your high tech doors blown off by DC...unless of course, you do it with
> the silly Wright Speed skeleton 'thing', then you wouldn't have any
> doors to get blown off.
>
> >
> >
> >Expanding slighty on John's points. I would add that every EV drag
> >racer has to have a good charger too.
> >
>
> Already got that with 12 kw Manzanita Micro chargers that we can easily
> use on other DC cars, making them way more useful than one that's stuck
> inside a high dollar AC car.
>
>
> >A major benefit of an AC system
> >is that for about $300 it's very easy to make the AC system do dual
> >duty as a charger.
> >
>
>
> These Manzanita Micro chargers can charge 'any' EV's pack, not just the
> captive one connected to an AC machine. Last night at the races was a
> perfect example. We used Manzanita Micro chargers to charge a 192V drag
> bike, a 120V convertible, a 240V 914, a 24V bike, a 360V car, and a 72V
> drag bike....even standby 12V batteries one at a time!
>
> > What's that worth?
> >
>
> Last night, where the real EV races were, it would have been worthless!
> And speaking of worthless, in the case of the AC powered Chevy S10
> pickup I had for several months, it also wasn't worth anything. In
fact,
> this over-priced, slow as molasses EV ($45,000 back in '98) with its
> under-powered Dolphin Hughes AC system with built-in inverter-based
> charger, was thrown away by the utility company that got duped into
> buying it, because the charger failure took down the entire inverter.
> Yeah, great idea there! After buying the over-priced AC truck and
having
> such a dismal experience, the utility company gave up on EVs.
>
> >The one area that AC loses today is the purchase price. You got me
> >there.
> >
>
> No, I got you on many, many other areas as well...you're only admitting
> to the price.
>
> >But someone could make an AC system that was Otmar-esque. A
> >sane, simple box....
> >
>
> What on earth is sane and simple about anything Otmar builds? His .6
> megawatt capable controller is not what most would consider sane...more
> like over-the-top, over-built, but certainly not sane! The Zilla and
> Hairball are anything but simple...they are advanced pieces of
equipment
> that provide tremendous power, flexibility, and reliability.
>
> >For performance, an AC motor can out rev a DC motor by a huge margin.
> >Mine goes to 9k rpm all day long.
> >
>
> Where did you get the idea, that all you have to do, is be able to rev
> to high rpm's to get performance? The Brusa AC system that was in
> Otmar's Sprint could rev to 9 or 10 grand, too, but it went 0-60 in
> about a day and a half. Your Dolphin may rev, but I doubt it can even
> remotely touch a DC system's performance at 1/3 the cost!
>
> >ACP motors rev to 13k rpm all day
> >long.
> >
>
> And yet, when doing an honest apples to apples comparison with my DC
> car, that is, both cars weighing exactly the same 2450 lbs. when
powered
> by AGM lead acid batteries, they are slower to 60 by at least a half
> second, slower in the 1/4 mile standing start drag race by more than a
> second (a huge margin in terms of 1/4 mile ET) with their 13.24 ET
vs my
> 12.151 ET, slower to 100 mph...oops, sorry, in order to get its 0-60
> time down it had to be geared appropriately and thus it couldn't even
> hit 100 and only ran 90 mph, and slower in top speed than my old
tech DC
> powered Datsun that's got rear doors, windows....well, it's a car,
not a
> plastic toy.
>
> Even with the HUGE advantage of a mega dollar LiIon pack, my DC car can
> still whup the tZero. Looks like all those rpms didn't do sh....t! Ever
> wonder what that fiberglass curiosity would do if you took out that
> wimpy 150 kw power train, and dropped in the 350 kw power train of
White
> Zombie and fed it with those LiIons?
>
> >AC motors do not have brushes and
> >all the assorted headaches.
> >
>
> Hmmm....the brushes in Blue Meanie are original, been in the car for 12
> years, and are still at 60% or so. No headaches to speak of, other than
> those caused by my head getting slammed back into the head rests.
>
> >If you want to run more voltage you
> >just....run more voltage. No arc over headaches.
> >
> >
>
> A valid point when under the extremes of racing, but certainly not
valid
> at all for regular street cars.
>
> >AC systems create a very flat torque curve via the electronics. That's
> >a drag racers wet dream.
> >
> >
>
> Actually, it's you that's all wet. AC cars typically have a very soft
> low end, that's why they need to be geared down. As the revs go up, the
> torque curve rises and eventually flattens out from 2000-8000 rpm, then
> they fall off. High voltage DC drives are flat from the beginning with
> near instantaneous bottom end torque that stays flat until about 6000
> rpm then ramps down, for about the same bandwidth of power as the AC
> drive, but with the advantage of the power being available far sooner,
> where you need it most.
>
> >The other benefit of AC over DC is that you don't need a battery pack
> >that can source 2000 amps.
> >
>
> Boy, the spin is getting thick here! Why do you AC guys have to use
> theses tactics to 'try' prove your points? You certainly don't need
2000
> amps with DC to easily match or exceed the 100 kw power level of AC, in
> fact, run at the same voltage of the typical 100 kw AC system, the
> current is the same for DC. Even at half the voltage, you only need 700
> or so, not 2000! The fact is, at 2000 amps the DC system simply blows
> away the AC system stuck at a restrictive 350 amps. Two cars with the
> same voltage pack, same weight, but one DC and the other AC, will have
> to draw the same current to get similar performance.
>
> You seem to be parroting what you've been told. AC drives 'typically'
> powered at 100 kw do it by using ~300V at 350 amps, where DC systems
> typically can do 100 kw at ~150V or so at 700 amps. The AC promoters
> 'spin' this by dodging the fact that they can't make an affordable high
> current inverter that can handle 700 amps for a sensible lower voltage
> system, so they simply tout that they only need 350 amps to make their
> 100 kw of power. The reason for this is obvious to most of us. AC
> inverters that aren't in the $20k range, can't handle anymore amps than
> this, thus, the only way to make 100 kw of power is to raise the
voltage
> high enough so that amps X volts equals 100 kw. DC can do it at half
the
> voltage, making for a much less expensive battery pack consisting of
> just 13, 12V modules...your beloved AC can't do this and still make 100
> kw. What you omit in your apples to oranges comparison, is that a 300V
> DC system.... 'surprise'....also only draws 350 amps to make 100 kw of
> power. I wonder why you leave this part out? This seems to be a common
> thread among AC lovers. Now, to take away your AC spin, let's restate
> the above:
>
> The other benefit of DC over AC is that you don't need a high
voltage battery pack
> to make reasonable power (100 kw)...you can do it with half the
number of batteries sourcing 700 amps. Additionally, with the higher
performance DC systems, sourcing 2000 amps at higher voltages can make
power levels 4 times higher for the same price as a 100 kw AC system!!
>
>
> Next up:
>
> >A 1000 amp AC system would be a sub 10
> >second vehicle.
> >
>
>
> OK......and where's this 1000 amp AC system that can be had at the same
> price as a Zilla Z2K with DC motor? And why do you think a 1000 amp AC
> system could even stay close to a 2000 amp DC system?
>
> >How do I know this? Because the fast AC systems now
> >are pulling 500-700 amps, and are running in the low 11's.
> >Yes they were 1/4 mile runs done at Moffet Field. I think there are
> >videos out there as I recall.
> >Don't let the cost of these cars blind you to the most simple part.
> >These AC car makers are making world class machines.
> >
>
> Boy, are your facts screwed up! First, the 'cars' you refer to are
> nothing close to regular cars. The tZero as already pointed out, is a
> toy-like kit car of flimsy build quality that weighs next to nothing
and
> doesn't even have functioning doors...yeah, world class! Minus its
> exotic $60,000 LiIon battery pack and using lead acid technology like
> the DC cars, again already pointed out, it's slower in every regard
> than a 34 year old DC powered, factory built, steel constructed
> sedan....yeah, world class! How 'bout that skeleton 'thing'?...I refuse
> to call it a car! It's not even close to being a real car (a tube frame
> with tires) and again, running a mega dollar LiIon battery pack, it ran
> a 'claimed' 11.95 only after cheating with a running start, and even at
> this, there were no timing lights to make it accurate, just some dudes
> with hand-held stop watches...what a joke, and what an insult to those
> who take their machines to properly timed tracks and get real time
slips
> from a standing start. I have a time slip showing that my car has
really
> run a 12.151 ET, and it did it from a standing start. If I were a
> cheating man, I could do a rolling start as they did in those goofy
> Wright Speed videos, and could probably rip off a low 11 or even a
high 10!
>
> >Happily. http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html It has done 11.5 seconds.
>
>
>
> Spin again? At the referenced site, did you not see the '~' in front of
> the 11.5 second claim? That little squiggly thing means 'approximate',
> meaning that they haven't really done this, that they haven't got a
time
> slip to prove it, that they are BS-ing! By the way, an 11.5 is what
real
> drag racers call a 'mid 11', not a low eleven...more spin? The truth
is,
> the best ET they claim to have any witnesses to, is the aforementioned
> cheater's rolling start 11.95....give me a break!
>
> >Then at the end of the 10-11 second race day, you just charge up and
> >drive home instead of trailering your race specific vehicle back to
> >the shop.
> >
> >
>
> Geesh....where did all this come from? Are you really trying to
convince
> us that AC is soooooo much better, that it can perform miracles? Or,
are
> you just assuming that only AC system can uses LiIons? By the way, I
> 'do' just charge up and drive home after racing.
> My car is anything but race specific, if you're pointing fingers this
> way. It's got more range than many everyday conversions, and it's
driven
> often. Unlike the Wright Speed you're so stoked about, my car actually
> has doors you can lock, windows that roll up and down,
> a roof over your head, and full body work....which car did you say was
> race specific?
>
> >If it wasn't for Otmar, EV drag racing would not be where it is today
> >for many folks.
> >
>
> So Otmar single handedly invented electric drag racing? I think he'd
> find that amusing!
>
>
> >Not everyone can get a battery sponsorship
>
>
> That's correct. It takes years of hard work, creativity, ingenuity,
> dedication, credibility, and real documented results to 'earn'
sponsorship.
>
> Mike, you need to get out more :-) If you think a low quality kit car
> that doesn't have the average features of an econobox sedan (doors,
> widows, etc.) with an inverter, AC motor, and ultra high cost batteries
> is state of the art...or...if you think a few twisted tubes with tires
> at each corner and exaggerated stats obtained from over-zealous
> marketeers is state of the art, please at least take a look at a real
> honest effort such as the Tesla. Moreover, fly to Portland at the
end of
> next month and take in the Late Night Drags and join in with EVers that
> prove their claims using real cars at a bona fide NHRA track.
>
> Mike, you might want to take a more objective look at the prototypes
you
> rave about, and ask yourself why the AC systems have to be installed in
> minimalist vehicles to get their 'claimed' performance levels, why most
> all of those claims of outrageous performance can't be verified with
> real NHRA time slips, why during testing they use techniques recognized
> by 'real' racers not to be credible (rolling starts, waving of a flag,
> hand-held stop watches), and why both the AC Propulsion crowd and the
> Wright Speed group have never, ever, shown up at any sanctioned NEDRA
> EVent (even after numerous courteous invites) where their vehicles
could
> be raced against substantial, production quality 'cars' with what you
> view as caveman technology. The answer to most any thinking individual
> is obvious.
>
> >PS the next time someone tries to sell you on how great DC systems
> >are, ask him how many AC systems he's owned ;)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> You don't need to own an AC system to know all about it. I'd argue that
> I have far more experience in AC cars than you'll ever have.
> I'd ask this question...."The next time someone tries to sell you on
how
> great AC systems are, note that the system is installed in a minimalist
> vehicle and that installed in a real car or truck, the AC system dollar
> for dollar has inferior acceleration and about the same range per
charge
> as a DC system. Better yet, the next time someone tries to sell you on
> how great AC systems are, strap him into a Zilla Z2K, DC powered EV,
> show them what 400 kw feels like, and scare the hell out of them!"
>
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The recent re-run of the AC vs DC thread had me wondering so I took a
bit of time today to analyze the EV Album entries to get an idea of
the current state of affairs. This is what I found:
63 AC Drive EVs, 18 are conversions 45 are OEMs
698 DC Drive EVs, 522 are conversions 176 are OEMs
This proves what? Nothing really, just a data point to ponder.
FWIW, I also checked to see what types of vehicles we actually have
in the Album now:
368 cars
84 trucks
81 bicycles, tricycles, and quadracycles
70 personal transports, scooters, mopeds, and pocket bikes
52 motorcycles
30 gocarts and sidewalk cars
28 enclosed motorcycles
19 tractors
16 racers and dragsters
16 vans and minivans
15 all terrain vehicles
14 sport utility vehicles and 4x4s
11 other
9 boats and watercraft
4 utility vehicles, service vehicles, and golf carts
3 pushers and generator trailers
1 neighborhood electric vehicle
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(See Roger's comments below)
To start with an aside - this list is about the only place I've found any
practical information regarding charging batteries in EV level voltage range
strings (and a lot of other things) so I feel it's helpful to post my
experiences and surprises as they arise. As Roger posts, AGM batteries have
different issues than floodies, and I'm learning about them as I go along. I
know other people's posts regarding real-life newby EV experiences have been
invaluable to me, so maybe this will help somebody else. Anyway, to get to the
point...
Since the "rogue" battery was resting above the level of the others, and hogged
the current while I was charging, I cut it out of the loop and charged the rest
of the pack up to 13.6, bypassing the "rogue" #13 which was sitting at 13.3.
Then I reconnected #13 and started to charge the whole pack together. I have a
crude "dim-boy" charger, so about all I can do is vary what the unloaded output
voltage of the beast would be, and see what happens. The maximum unloaded
voltage is about 200V, which translates to about 15.4V per battery. At that
setting, a pack of batteries with an average charge of 13.5V will pull about 6
amps, declining as their voltage rises. The individual batteries' voltages
rise very unevenly (as Roger predicts). When the average battery voltage rose
to about 13.8 I decided to lower the setting until the pack drew 2 amps - a
voltage setting that would be about 14.4 amps unloaded - and let the batteries
simmer with their individual current being
adjusted by the Z-regs. At that point the battery voltage spread was right
in the Z-reg wheelhouse - some batteries were at 14.9, and their regs were
burning off 1/2 amp; the lowest batteries were at 13.9, and their regs weren't
consuming enough juice to even make their bulb glow.
I discovered in a less-than ideal way that the Hart Z-regs really do work - I
checked one battery whose reg wasn't lit, and discovered that a wire had come
loose. That battery was at 15.3 while the rest were between 13.8 and 14.9. A
quick shutdown and solder job and it fell back to the pack - behind the couple
that were pushing 14.9, well ahead of the stragglers at 13.8. The current is
now about 1.5 amps. I'm going to let it run for a few hours to see if the
lower batteries start closing the gap.
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:<snip> From what you've described, I'm
assuming that this means the pack has
reached the desired voltage level and you are now holding the voltage
constant while the current tapers off. It is perfectly normal during
this phase of the charge that the voltage divides unequally across the
modules in the string, such that some are below the pack average and
others are above it. Part of the unequal division may be due to
differnences in the internal impedance of the batteries (consider the
pack as a big voltage divider formed by the series connection of
resistors corresponding to the internal impedances of each module).
Just to complicate matters, the internal resistance of the modules
varies with state of charge, temperature, etc., and often a module will
"hog" voltage early in the constant voltage phase, but will then drop in
voltage later in the phase as some other module rises in voltage.
While this is normal, it is also (in my opinion) where the real risk of
abusing a VRLA lies. If the module voltage gets too high, it may be
unable to recombine the internal gasses rapidly/efficiently enough to
avoid venting even if the pack current is modest, so one must somehow
limit the voltage, or limit the amount of time the module sees high
voltage. What you might consider trying is wiring 2 or more Z-regs
across this module to provide more current bypass capability. This
might avoid the need to readjust the charger to keep the module voltage
within safe bounds.
One thing to be aware of is that the VRLA module voltages are a poor
indicator of state-of-charge near the end of charge. As the modules
near full charge, their voltages are greatly affected by differences in
such things as recombination efficiency. I think this is one of the
possible pitfalls of any scheme that seeks to actively clamp the module
voltages to some arbitrary level, or to pack average, etc. The real
metric to rely on is the module resting voltages some hours after
competion of charge; how similar these voltages are indicates how well
balanced the pack is.
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Advanced DC Electric 203-06-4001A Motor 72-144 VDC Item number: 120014847592
I thought this was interesting. It looks like someone bought these parts new
and found out they don't fit. I say don't fit because the mount is for a Metro
... and the motor has a tail shaft. Last I heard that doesn't fit. You have
to cut off the tail shaft or use the single shaft motor. Or, you can cut a
hole in the inner fender wall. Still, at $1770 delivered for the motor,
adapter, and motor mount, it seems like a pretty OK deal. Or, just the motor,
but that isn't as good of a deal. I wonder if it is for a clutchless system,
or if the adapter (not shown, but I am thinking is included) bolts up the the
flywheel.
If I was building a Metro, I'd consider it to save a few dollars and the
headache of making another coupler.
Lets see, if I wanted to build a Metro EV
Chasis in decent condition - $1800 (notice that I no longer recommend the
$150 chasis after my Festiva)
the above - $1800
144 V of batteries - $1600
Controller - $2000 - only the best
Wires - $200 +
Charger - $500
Misc - Throw in another $1000 for making battery boxes, pot box, contactor,
fuse.
$8900. Isn't that pretty close to what I recently said a decent Metro with a
fresh battery pack is worth. Of course, I still want the used one. I just
don't have another 100 hours to assemble one.
Steve
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It's clear to me that you are not a fan of technology.
Whoa...what?! Plasma Boy is not a fan of technology? Just because
someone doesn't want to spend a lot of their income on new technology
doesn't mean they aren't a "fan" of it.
> Composite
> construction, tube frames and AC are not something you've looked into
> for racing apparently. In fact you call them silly.
I would guess because he thinks exotic materials aren't for mass
consumption until the masses can afford them.
> These AC companies
> have and are using it effectively too. You choose to overlook one
> thing, these AC cars want to go hundreds of miles on a charge as well
> as go fast, very very fast. Can any DC car make claims like that?
> Nope. Never will be able too either.
Actually, only a couple AC cars have gone that far, none of which were
production versions, all of which were driven by experienced EV
drivers. Put one in the hands of the typical ICE driver and the range
will drop dramatically.
> I don't think these EV companies are missing the boat by going with AC
> systems over DC. The common thread is that each new EV company keeps
> picking AC systems to run world class acceleration with. There must be
> something to these AC systems. But how can they keep missing the
> benfits of DC?
Because they aren't drag racing?
> You use to own the same type of USE truck that I do? How cool is
> that?? Did you know the USE charger can charge any voltage pack?? Did
> you know it can charge Nimh or Lead acid? Did you look into that while
> you owned it? Of course you did....
>
> Did you know the 20kw charger in the ACP cars is user adjustable on
> the dash board for any voltage AC going in or DC voltage going out
> from technology that was designed over 15 years ago??
>
> A 20kw charger for $300??
>
> Nobody on this planet can touch that. No extra boxes of hardware to
> store at home or in the EV. All built in. Seems to me to be a great
> asset to racing. It's part of every AC systems capability and a great
> boon for efficiency if weight means anything
but you have to buy the whole package, so an incremental $300 is not a
good measure of final cost.
> The X1 did a rolling start due to the objections of the other vehicles
> owner not wanting to toast a $30,000 clutch assy. So Ian agreed to a
> rolling start. The other vehicles he raced were standing starts. I've
> ridden in the X1 and your not going to beat it with any DC car.
I got to ride in the passenger seat of the Maniac Mazda for all of 2
seconds (on the same day Ryan Seacrest had the same experience for the
entire quarter mile), and there is no EV experience like a standing
start in a wheelie-capable DC car with massive drag slicks...
> Remember John, if the X1 and Tzero had a transmission that could shift
> just one more gear, then their top ends would be far higher. They go
> with no gears as it takes away from their ultimate goal of efficency
> and lighter weight. Yet they still hold their own against world class
> street legal cars.
...because, as John said, they are stripped-down protos. If they had
to go through all the same crash testing that a Viper, Corvette or
even a Ferrari does, they would be totally different (and heavier) beasts.
> Keep advancing the cause of DC John. Just close your doors, very very
> tightly....
>
> Mike
Wow...why do you have such hostility towards DC systems? Even their
proponents admit their failings, but they can do that because they can
afford them. I drive a Ranger EV, so I know what a slug an AC system
can be turned into - Ford could have cranked up the controller to
twice the amps and still be within its ratings, but ICE drivers kept
flooring them and sucking the packs dry. Drag racers don't have that
hindrance, but neither do EV makers who want to impress the media.
--- End Message ---
