EV Digest 5724
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Chris Paine and WKTEC on Ed Schultz Show
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The 1000 mile pack, fast charging, Cost effective EV's
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: More Direct Drive Discussion
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Voltage Measurement Circuit for Basic Stamp2
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV Grin!!!!!!!!
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Seattle Times FEATURES TESLA Roadster - PI..Other EV's
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zillas not available?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: More Direct Drive Discussion
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: reg installations
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: organic vs Metalic Brakes
by "Ed K." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The 1000 mile pack, fast charging, Cost effective EV's
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: More Direct Drive Discussion
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Purchased Jet 007
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Who Killed the Electric Car
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I heard a great 10 minute interview with Chris Paine on the Ed Schultz
show yesterday. Ed has the fastest growing "left wing" radio show in the
country, AND he owns a GEM EV. It was interesting listening to him
describe driving around in the GEM, litterally giggling at how fun it was
to drive. He also said his kids fight over who gets to drive it when they
come home.
Links to the interview at www.bigeddieradio.com, direct download here:
http://audio.wegoted.com/podcasting/80306Paine.mp3
Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
>
>When I moved my 85 S-10 Blazer from a Curtis to a DCP
>Raptor 600 it was like driving an entirely new and much
>improved truck from just off charge to coming up that hill
>to my house at the end of the day. I changed absolutely
>nothing else about it. Actually now that I think about it
>the curtis gave up it's ghost after coming up a long hill
>which and when I got the raptor I was really depressed that
>I had waited soooo long. I'm thinking of doing similar for
>my S-15 and with the Zillas tons of features I am pretty
>sure I can limit the battery amps so it doesn't eat my
>batteries for lunch. It would probably be a waste for just
>that but when I get my Freedom EV I can put the zilla in
>there :-)
With the Freedom, a Zilla would be overkill unless
you wanted to seriously race but even there, a Zilla 1k
would be all you need as there is only a single rear tire to
take all that power.
Close to ideal is the Raptor whch if remember
correctly, has 800 motor amps but even 600amps would be real
good at a much lower cost than the Zilla. Too bad it's not
in production anymore.
Stock is just 450 amps at 72vdc pack with
series/parallel twin motors for low end torque, high speed
power.
For a 1,000 mile range, if one had the money to do
a 100kw Li-Ion pack, the Freedom EV probably can carry the
weight if under 800lbs and has low enough drag I believe to
get 1,000 miles on a charge.
But that's going to be a rather big buck pack!! I
wonder how much it would cost and weigh for 100kwhr of
Li-ions like Kokams?
The Sunrise too could probably with Li-ions do 1,000
miles/charge with a similar pack as it got under
100wthrs/mile too.
With it's smaller charging need because of it's low
wthrs/mile of under 100wt/hrs/mile projected from the
Ewoody's performance, you can easily recharge it if lead,
nicad or some Li-ions in under 20 minutes/100 mile range
from any regular local grid distribution transformer with
ACP's or Rudman's future high power chargers. This means
setting up high power charger infastructures will cost
little more than gasoline pumps, tankage systems do.
Or one can use my solution until fast chargers
and/or Li-ions are available is to use a 5kw per 1,000lb of
EV, generator, and 100 mile range of much cheaper lead
batteries. Then hopefully by the time the lead batts need
replacing in 4-6 yrs, Li-ions will be cost effective.
As for cost building an EV, it doesn't have to be
expensive if you try. My Ewoody and my trike are both under
$800 to make and a good scrounger willing to make their own
adaptor plate, find a surplus forklift, ect motor and it's
contactors, ect can make a good EV conversion for under $2k
so let's stop telling everyone you have to have gold plated
EV equipment when there are good low cost alternatives. One
can subsitute sweat, homework for just writing a check and
going for lightweight gliders like VW bug's, Karman Ghia's,
used Kitcars, older econoboxes, Ect.
And there is no reason Detroit couldn't build a cost
effective EV if they wanted to.
EV's can beat ICE's in economy, cost effectiveness if
you work at it, keep it light, low drag. But heavy, bad aero
conversions are not the way and not a fair test of EV costs.
KIS,
Jerry Dycus
>
>Mark Hastings
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don, I totally agree. I just hate it when I hear this payback thing. When
I hear it from someone I ask them what is the payback period on that new
$5000.00 couch you just bought that may go out of style and have to be
replaced or you end up eventually giving to Goodwill. It is all a matter of
perspective and frankly this culture doesn't have much in my personal
opinion. This of course does not apply to the majority of EV pioneers on
this list.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
If you want to do an EV conversion to save money, forget it. Payback
period
is too long.
But money is only a personal issue.
But what about the other considerations? What about reducing your
personal
pollution and your personal impact on the environment? How about helping
your country to become less dependant on oil and foreign suppliers?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: August 1, 2006 11:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
Sorry, I guess people are getting hung up on the range statement.
Some claim good range, but then make a qualifier of 45 mph, etc. I don't
know about you all, but if I hop on the freeway (required for most
traveling
in my area) I need to hit a speed of at least 55 mph. Heck, when I tow a
trailer I feel down right unsafe on the highway at only 55 MPH.
I'm not sure a true EV will be in my future any time soon. The cost and
performance is horrible. I'm fine cruising along with less power, no
issues
there, but the range and economy have to be there. Part of the economy is
the cost of the conversion.
-Wayne
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--- Begin Message ---
Jim;
I can see the advantages to the Siamese, but what about 2 motors coupled
together?
You give up the weight and size reduction, but
if one motor shoots craps, you still have the other to limp home on.
If you have (2) 9" Advance motors, you still should have decent
performance even with only 1 motor functioning.
It also gives me the option of taking it to any motor shop for service.
I'm not sure everyone would have your expertise to work on a Siamese
setup.
Plus, I assume that you give up any warranty on both your motors with a
Siamese setup.
What do you think?
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More Direct Drive Discussion
"Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In my opinion I still feel the way to go on an electric vehicle is with
direct drive. We have already seen the performance advantages with John
and Matt's cars. The EV1 was also designed as direct drive. Eliminates
more components that require maintenance; transmission, clutch, etc.
Jim Husted or others;
What kind of crazy motor designs would be applicable to a direct drive
vehicle.
Are Siamese setup's the way to go?
Does 3 smaller motors coupled together offer any advantages?
Any easy way to have a motor at each wheel and eliminate the rear end?
Any others?
Hey Dennis, all
I don't know if I'd call the Siamese setup "the" way to go, but it's
performance is pretty hard to dispute. It's been a year now that
Waylands been hammering that motor and she just keeps ticking like a
good 'ol Timex. Now for EVery race we hear about there are probably 10
to 12 additional hammerings between. I have no idea how many times Tim
pounded the peddle on the Joliet trip (it does seem the Hooter girls got
some extra pounding, lmao).
Needless to say I'm pretty proud of my role in developing it. The
biggest assets if concidering it are the weight reduction, shorter
length, and a tougher shaft. Having dual comm's to share the current as
opposed to a single larger motor is also a big plus. I can't remember
what John's efficiancy is but I'd bet it's as good or better than most,
so I believe lets say even a dual 7" might be very awesome for daily's.
Now having a clutch is a nice safety devise and I've heard that
argument posted numerous times so to error on the side of caution buy a
Zilla, lol! Actually in 25 years I've never once heard of a controller
failing "on" in a forklift, but they do run much lower voltages. I
really try to "not" get involved in the flame wars of oppinion. It is
my belief that EVeryone has different needs. What I do for Rod and GP's
motor is not whats needed for John and WZ's for example. Finding the
right motor for the load is 90% of the battle. What's right for you,
only you know, in fact not one of my motors have been duplicates. They
might share basic techniques like heavier leads, etc., but are really
dictated by the customers wishes. If I can be honest it really works
like this... Hey can you do "this", sure I say! and then scratch my head
like a monkey for a couple of weeks, lmao, hehehe!
As far as Siamese motors go there are a couple of things I'd like to
make more user-friendly like not having to press an armature off to
change the middle bearing. Keith and I have already discussed this and
believe we have a good solution, but have not tried it yet. What I need
to do is get the capital to buy 10 motors and work up a 5 batch which
would reduce costs to make by a lot. Untill then John owns the only
unicorn in the valley but I still love to watch it run 8^ ) BTW let me
know if you have 4 fiends with your same DD views, lmao, hehe.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Unicorn builder 8^ P
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
240Wh/mile.
Ask the list what people is averaging.
Victor
Mike Phillips wrote:
What kind of vehicles are you referring to Victor that are at 250wh/mile?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
There are no technical/engineering issues.
BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average "normal".
To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
We do what we can.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
cowtown wrote:
I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
fill-ups?
I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal compared to
a pack recharge.
EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more than
most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could go
100mi";
This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40 mile
range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems from
the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and has gone
on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the thought of
someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with a car
that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a charger
before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an F150..
It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd build one
just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it can
be done(have done it).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven Ciciora wrote:
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've build very linear DC isolator without primary
side
power source. Only issue it does not work
below LED threshold voltage (~1.3V or so) and
require calibration. Still, quote trivial circuit.
Are you going to describe it? I always like seeing
other people's approach to things...
I've uploaded a snap shot of the circuit I've used:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dc_opto.gif
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 17:24:39 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time), you wrote:
>How many horse is your Motor?
>
20 hp Prestolite
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The front Page of the Auto Section ( F1) Reads
"The BEAST" ( an article on the 07 GM Suburban)_
and under that....
"The BEAUTY Electric TESLA Roadster"
Hummm.... not bad copy!
Read the Times article at:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/motoring/2003175527_tesla04.html
Also in our #2 Paper... the Seattle Post Intelligencer
In Section B2 - Consumer Affairs - The Chinese 3 Wheeler Electric
Read article - See Pictures at:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/280067_tinycar04.html
Now I think we all know that THIS 3-wheeler from China (via ZAP ) is a
real Tin-can
But where else can you get a 40 mph Factory built EV off a show-room
floor for under $9999.
Now here is an interesting thing... This SAME CAR ( I swear ) shows up
on other Chinese EV web sites, under a different Name, and for less than
$6900. I N T E R E S T I N G !!
I'll try and PIN DOWN the WEB site.... (to follow...)
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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--- Begin Message ---
That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
guestimated?
Man, I want one.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
> about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
>
> My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
> 240Wh/mile.
>
> Ask the list what people is averaging.
>
> Victor
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
> > What kind of vehicles are you referring to Victor that are at
250wh/mile?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <ev@> wrote:
> >
> >>No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
> >>You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
> >>You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
> >>
> >>An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
> >>for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
> >>and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
> >>ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
> >>There are no technical/engineering issues.
> >>
> >>BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average "normal".
> >>
> >>To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
> >>drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
> >>give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
> >>
> >>This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
> >>implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
> >>do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
> >>and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
> >>something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
> >>
> >>We do what we can.
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >>Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >>
> >>>cowtown wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
> >>>>fill-ups?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal
compared to
> >>>a pack recharge.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more than
> >>>>most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could go
> >>>>100mi";
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
> >>>acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40 mile
> >>>range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems from
> >>>the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and has
gone
> >>>on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the thought of
> >>>someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with a car
> >>>that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a charger
> >>>before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
> >>>terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
> >>>
> >>>But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an F150..
> >>>It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd
build one
> >>>just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it can
> >>>be done(have done it).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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I know I can.. but the last 3 weeks may put that in doubt!!
Sheesh! order after order....
It's kinda like heaven and Hell, more money than I know what to do with..no
time to play with it!
The new Hybrid is NIiiiice.. but I have yet to hack the power cables to the
battery.
Goldie is back on line... nice old Fast Rust bucket... Madman The knuckle
dragging smoke show Dude..
The Hybrid is now Called Sage... Mr. Rudman, your EV EcoGeek ride is
ready....The Vallet parking guys says..
How to do both.... Just hand Mr. Rudman a Double tall Mocha.. and stand
back!! Madman's on the way.
Now is not the time to be having production issues. Ot's climbing back up
onto the Horsey... This is a good thing.
But I can see a big case of burn out for all us EV suppliers and converters.
We are the few that wish up the Gas prices... OK blame us and keep sending
those checks!!
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
---- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zillas not available?
> Hey all
>
> I just had to chime in here. My turn-a-round time (or lack there of)
more often than not sucks also! I'm not happy about it, but the other
choices of higher costs, a cheaper product, or working my life away are for
me even more unappealing. Mostly (for me) it's just the time it takes to do
it right. For those who might think "how hard could it be" and would like
to have a motor build-off, say when! (to quote Tombstone) 8^P Hell I'll
even spot you a helper, hehehehe!
>
> Anyway I felt the website bordered on slander in order to promote
another produce rather than on it's own merit! Boo to those responsible and
I issue my second "Hi-Torque Wienie" Award! What I find most often is that
it always seems the guy crying foul the loudest is usually the biggest
cheat!
> Just my opinion.
>
> PS: For those concerned about pending orders, I'm pretty sure I can beat
Otmar, LMAO, hehehehe!
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
"Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim;
>I can see the advantages to the Siamese, but what about 2 motors coupled
>together?
Sure Matt Graham is doing that right now as is Lowell with his High School
Porshe.
With Wayland trying to cram it into a Datson 1200 it was longer than would
fit so the angle of attack tilted to fit. Removing the extra drive plate and
inter-motor coupler reduced the length by 7 full inches, which most guys feel
is a lot, hehehe 8^ P
>You give up the weight and size reduction, but
>if one motor shoots craps, you still have the other to limp home on.
You can do the same with a Siamese setup. In fact after the Woodburn flash
over I removed the flashed side and ran the motor with half it's guts hanging
out 16" lmao! I wanted to sand the comm to look for damage, in case you're
wondering. There is nothing different about how they are wired or operate,
except that the motor sides do run electrically backwards, 8^)
>If you have (2) 9" Advance motors, you still should have decent
>performance even with only 1 motor functioning.
I agree here to, no hard sell on my part here. I imagine any future Siamese
motors would go to racers as every little thing matters. Saving 28 pounds plus
coupler and motor tray weight is huge. The other thing I ponder is how much do
you all pay for said coupler and motor mounting? So in my opinion some of the
costs are off set. Another nicety is that John and Tim can remove the motor in
less than 5 minutes if you can believe that? Not a good feature if you live in
a robbery prone zone though eh?? LMAO!
>It also gives me the option of taking it to any motor shop for service.
>I'm not sure everyone would have your expertise to work on a Siamese
>setup.
Thanks for the kind words and in fact this is a big part of why there aren't
more done yet to date. It seems to me that engineers actually try to make
things hard to work on, but I'd want people to be able to have them serviced
locally if possible. I had to make a special pressing block to be able to
remove the second armature and it wasn't fun to make. If I do a set of nines I
have to make another.
>Plus, I assume that you give up any warranty on both your motors with a
>Siamese setup.
Well actually I assume warranty then, I carry product liability insurance
which covers any possible screw-ups (which I have to carry for the forklift
motors) and I bank on 25 years of background to aid me in making sure that that
new part is in fact good. I'm sure someday someone will explode a Kevlar
banded comm and scream warranty, lmao, I'll deal with it when it comes, hehehe.
>What do you think?
Well my first thought is why the hell would anybody ship their motor to some
implanted Oreegone hick located in no-where-land, LMAO! To be honest I only
built Johns Siamese to shut him up so I could live in peace but it seems he had
friends 8^)
Actually I'm a small dog who enjoys EVery bone I'm tossed and I'd like to
give a big shout-out to everyone who had the faith in me went that extra mile
in either shipping me their motor or waiting for my sloth like turn around and
for a wonderful first year ; ^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
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--- Begin Message ---
I duct tape them to my batteries..
Some times I use a plastic liner to keep battery acid vapors off the circuit
boards.
On the Set in Goldie I have the Reg duct taped to a slab of plexaglass to
keep the exploding batteries from more than scorching the Reg's Fuses. Then
I tape the slab to the battery.
This works.. it's not very elegant.. but it serves me fine.
You want the Regs as close to the battery they protect to have the temp comp
circuits work right.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDLposts" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 11:13 AM
Subject: reg installations
> I'm planning my reg installation, and would love to hear recommendations
and see some pictures of how others have done theirs. Should I look for
enclosures, some kind of plastic box to keep them dry? Or will they heat up
too much if I do that? How do others keep them cool while keeping them dry,
too?
>
> I do remember the post regarding not placing them directly on a battery,
as they get too hot.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> David Brandt
>
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As best I can remember:
My '83 Rabbit GTI had the vented rotors, but the caliper was the same
spacing as non-vented rotors.
The difference was that the pads for the GTI were not as thick as the
regular pads.
Ed Koffeman
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 3:08 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
>
> When my converted Rabbit (VoltsRabbit) first hit the road back in
> 1994, we had installed new stock (organic) pads on all four
> corners. I went through those in a hurry on all the hills around
> here. I don't think the front or rear (the rear's actually died
> first - bad taper along the length of one of the shoes, so
> perhaps an incorrect install) made it much more than 10K miles.
> Also, I wasn't happy with the fact that the emergency brake (rear
> brakes) could not stop the car on my steep hill down from the
> apt; they could only keep it from going any faster.
>
> So first change was installing a set of Porterfield carbon-kevlar
> shoes in the rear. Wow!, what a difference. They're still there
> and looking good at something like 20K miles later. Also, if I
> give the emergency brake lever a good pull, the brakes will lock
> up the rear wheels on the hill (probably hell on the tires...).
>
> Somewhat later, the shop down the street discovered that I was
> practically down to the rivets on the organic linings on the
> front (disc brakes). I was checking only one side, the outside
> that I could see through the wheel holes, but I think it was the
> inside pads that were badly worn. The shop guys were really
> hesitant about letting me back on the road with those pads, so I
> had to punt (I wanted to put carbon-kevlars on the front too) and
> go with upgrading to semi-metallic linings (the shop guys called
> them "rotor eaters") and vented grooved rotors. Yep, big
> difference here too! These things actually stop better the
> warmer they get and can just about put the tail in the air. Cold
> stopping ability is not overly great for the first instant or so,
> and I still cannot lock the front tires up on dry surfaces (I
> think that's going to require bigger rotors and wheels). They
> have also lasted a lot longer than the organics, although I think
> it is getting to be replacement time before much longer,
> considering where the pads were last year compared to the year
> before.
>
> Given this set of experiences, anytime I talk with somebody about
> brakes for their heavy EV conversion, I recommend getting away
> from the stock organic crap and moving up to carbon-kevlar or
> semi-metallics and maybe different rotors.
>
> I have a question. Assuming my front pads are not getting down
> to the wear indicators (noise), what is going on that causes a
> horrendous ringing squeal when the car is braking at real slow
> speeds (like going over a speed bump) or coming down to slow
> speeds? I doubt this is a wear indicator noise, since the
> semi-metallics did this for awhile when they were nearly new. It
> usually happens at night, so I suspect that this is related to
> humidity, and perhaps a very slight rusting of the surface of the
> rotor(s) that causes the pads and calipers to vibrate. It seems
> to come more from the passenger side. Are there anti-squeal
> shims (maybe I lost one or it's getting loose), or is there a
> spray to put on?
>
> And another question (for the (VW) disc brake pros). My rotors
> are significantly wider (at ~20mm) than the stock version. I
> believe my calipers are Haynes-Kelsey. Before I dig into
> replacing the pads (perhaps with carbon-kevlar, although it
> doesn't look like Porterfield makes them anymore for VW Rabbits
> (1980)), is it standard procedure to put a spacer in there to
> allow the calipers to fit around the wider rotor, or what is
> normally done? I don't see how they do it without putting a
> spacer in for more width.
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Mark E. Hanson" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:06 AM
> Subject: Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
>
>
> > Metallic's need to be warmed up first. So if they are not used
> > constantly they cool off and don't stop worth a damn. That's
> why they
> > came out with semi metallic's for the street.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark E. Hanson"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > A mechanic friend stopped by last night and recommended
> changing
> > my shoes to semi-metalic or metalic brakes for shorter stopping
> > distance in my Cushman but I've heard others on this list say
> the
> > standard shoes are better for stopping distance. Is there a
> chart for
> > brake material grabbiness or stopping distance? Any real world
> tests
> > been done?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
> around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are all taking into account that the heavy battery load of a 1,000 mile
pack will impact how much load you are putting on the batteries, right? More
weight will require a bigger battery. Kind of a catch 22.
That could be a lot of load to drag all of the weight up a mountain pass.
(Part of your 1,000 mile loop, right?)
-Wayne
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
> about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
>
> My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
> 240Wh/mile.
>
On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 09:49:55PM -0000, Mike Phillips wrote:
> That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
> guestimated?
>
> Man, I want one.
My Solectria Force uses about 1Ah per mile on a 156 Volt pack.
This turns out to be ~156Wh/Mile.
This is when driving in Econ mode, limiting current draw to ~50Amps.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure I get that. My truck goes 32mph on 20 amps. So that's not more
than 60wh/mile.
But on a useful trip around town the numbers won't look like that.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
> > about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
> >
> > My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
> > 240Wh/mile.
> >
> On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 09:49:55PM -0000, Mike Phillips wrote:
> > That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
> > guestimated?
> >
> > Man, I want one.
>
> My Solectria Force uses about 1Ah per mile on a 156 Volt pack.
> This turns out to be ~156Wh/Mile.
>
> This is when driving in Econ mode, limiting current draw to ~50Amps.
>
> Thanks!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 10:47:24PM -0000, Mike Phillips wrote:
> Sure I get that. My truck goes 32mph on 20 amps. So that's not more
> than 60wh/mile.
>
> But on a useful trip around town the numbers won't look like that.
I drive my Force in Econ mode most of the time to keep the batteries happy.
Even trips on the expressway don't eat up much more then that, although it does
limit the number of Ahs I can get out of the pack at higher draws. Once I
go over ~60, Ah/Mi figure gets a little worse. Turns out the things that
really kill my Ah per mile figures are A/C and heat.
Driving at < 25 Mph (Which I did driving in a loop around a large building
when I first bought the car with an almost dead pack) I did 12 miles in 5Ah.
As it is today, almost all of my trips (even on the expressway) are
~1Ah a mile.
As always, YMMV :)
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:08 PM 4/08/06 -0700, Jim Husted wrote:
<snip> It seems to me that engineers actually try to make things hard to
work on, but I'd want people to be able to have them serviced locally if
possible. I had to make a special pressing block to be able to remove the
second armature and it wasn't fun to make. If I do a set of nines I have
to make another.
G'day Jim, and all
One of my customers keeps getting me to help him with things that are not
.. um "core business" as well :^)
Repairs and diagnostics of CNC machines gets stretched with this guy into
mechanical jobs that I just have to make up as I go along. We've had a
couple of machining center spindles apart for new bearings and they have
bearings in them that are up to 6" i.d. in the biggest I've seen so far,
but the o.d. is only maybe 1" bigger (as in that's fairly small bearing
balls in there).
Is it not possible to find a bearing that has a hole in it big enough to
clear the armature and go onto a mounting disc that sits where the center
bearing plate is currently? Since the siamese 8 seems to only have 1 fan,
it would seem to be do-able, since the bearing doesn't need to sit between
fans. Put vent holes through the disc (or make a complete new combined
bearing support disc/fan part) to cool the motor half on the other side of
the bearing?
Or are these bearings too big OD to get in there, or some other reason
(cost of the bearing?)?
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 2, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Clif Martin wrote:
The charger says:
Lestronic I
208/230 volts
60 Hz
Model 9868
24 Amps AC
1 phase
DC volts 12/120
DC amps 15/25
Type 12/120LCR25-8ET
Serial No 10-80
What can anyone tell me about it?
Looks like a 240 VAC input only. It has a 120 volt DC charger and a 12
volt DC charger built into it. It has the automatic shut-off timer
built in. This shut-off looks for the battery voltage rise over time to
get low to tell it when to shut off (a good idea, provides automatic
temperature compensation.) On the negative side this charger is
designed to be at 8 amps at 2.5 volts per cell (150 volts.) That is a
bit high for golf cart batteries and way to high for flooded 12 volt
batteries (it will cook them.)
Paul G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This thread has me thinking. The brake pads on my EV buggy are getting
a bit thin. Its likely one of the few cars that still run asbestos
brake pads (no longer available, the pads in the Buggy where purchased
in 1974.) I have tried "organic" pads before in drum brake cars and
found they don't give a good pedal feel. They grab a bit at engagement
and seem non-linear. A complicating issue with the buggy is an 8 inch
wheel bolt circle in 9 inch drums generally means the drums are
somewhat out of round all the time.
Any opinions on what to replace asbestos drum brake pads with? Full
metallic is out as the buggy brakes are usually cold. I don't need
increased load capacity as the buggy is lighter than the stock VW
Beetle by 400 lb. The plan for this winter is to rebuild the front
suspension, steering, and brakes. All these parts are getting quite
old.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
On Aug 4, 2006, at 10:11 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:
Another data point: I have kevlar pads on my heavy car. After 70k
miles I can't tell that they have worn, plenty of lining left. They
seem to be treating the rotors nicely. My first autocross run on them
they stunk badly, but not since. The downside is I cannot lock up the
wheels on dry pavement (antilocks are not kicking in even, and it is
obvious when they work on snow) -- so I don't think they stop the car
as fast as other pads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Aug 2006 at 6:14, Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
> I have a copy of a 1992 article in Discovery Magazine on the design of
> the Impact (EV1) by Paul MacCready and his company AeroVironment.
I've posted this article on evdl.org - at the moment there's no page
pointing to it (I'll fix that soon) but you can download it from either of
the links below.
http://www.evdl.org/docs/impact.pdf
http://www.evdl.org/docs/impact.zip
The zip file is an archive of monochrome jpeg scans from the original pages.
Some were done in 1-bit so the images don't look so good, but the text is
quite legible. (Because of the text layout, OCRing the whole article would
have been extremely time-consuming.) It's slightly over 1mb.
The pdf file is easier to view or print, but it's quite large, over 13mb.
The usual disclaimer applies : this information is posted for educational
and information purposes, under the fair use principles. However, if you
are the copyright owner of this material and believe my use to be
inappropriate, please see the page
http://www.evdl.org/help/
for my contact information. Notify me and I'll remove it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ - the former contact address
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too would like to know why the acceleration "SUCKS" using a 9 inch motor.
That's easy golf cart batteries and a Curtis controller. all in a heavy
truck . If you want range then you'll have to have battery weight , I'm
enjoying the range of my pu with 40 golf cart batteries , I did a few 70
miles trips but the pick up is only fair ( but dose what I need ) . This is
one reason for not putting more batteries in a car/truck than you need .
I've been using my EV lawn mower whatch has 8 orbitals for about 6 months ,
I charge it from my work truck and am ready to go in 10 minunites not full
but close , under certen condistion I've seen over 250 amp going into the
batteries . Some days seeing 8 charges or more . I could see where sombody
could drive for 20 minunites and charge for 10 giving a 40mile per hour
driving time( at 60 mph) 24hours of this would almost be your 1000 miles .
Sounds like a ev adventure. What would the out come of having driven 1000
miles in 24 hours be . I don't think its that hard . have a 20 trip and at
each end a few golf cart ev's that are plugged in charging . Voltage would
have to be higher that the EV driving the 1000 miles with the orbitals so
maybe 2 or 3 golf cart Ev's with the 120 v packs in series , our orbital EV
pulls in charges just like I do the mower and then takes off , at the other
end another 3 golf cart EV's waiting and charging , would again pump the
amps into our nimble 1000 mile ev . Each of the golf cart ev owner's could
take a trun at driving . Could be a fun thing to do at a ev rally . Now if
sombody will put up 1000 dollars to the first person to drive a ev 1000
miles ibn 24 hours I'll get started .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "torich1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
I hope all will respond to this email...
Rich in Va
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Hollingshead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 11:31 PM
Subject: RE: The math for a 1000 mile pack
Hello.
My EV ('93 Toyota p/u) uses 24 Trojan T-145s (144V), and has a range of
50mi.
I would love to reduce the weight as the batteries alone weigh 1700+lbs.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a maintenance-free, light weight
battery solution with reasonable cost?
I'd like to eliminate watering the batteries, and not have to worry about
hydrogen offgassing, and if able to reduce the weight of my vehicle I
could
increase my range significantly.
Also my acceleration sucks. I'm usually passed by at least 6 or 7
vehicles
before I can get up to speed in traffic.
Is it better to hammer the pedal, draw more amps at first to get up to
speed, or take 'er easy and baby it up to speed taking much longer?
I'm running a Curtis controller, and ADC 9" motor, that I thought should
be
able to have my EV screaming down the road....? So either something is
off,
or the weight in the bed of the truck is holding me back.
Not sure how the big boys are able to achieve the tire smoking power they
do.
Suggestions/thoughts?
Many thanks.
Curtis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
There are no technical/engineering issues.
BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average "normal".
To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
We do what we can.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
cowtown wrote:
I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
fill-ups?
I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal compared to
a pack recharge.
EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more than
most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could go
100mi";
This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40 mile
range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems from
the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and has gone
on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the thought of
someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with a car
that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a charger
before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an F150..
It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd build one
just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it can
be done(have done it).
--
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--- End Message ---
