EV Digest 5725
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Schott Power?
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Drag on an electric motor
by "David J. Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Zillas not available?
by "rcboyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: More Direct Drive Discussion - Siamese middle bearing
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: reg installations
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Zillas not available?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Drag on an electric motor
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Pics of GP's new brush ring
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: This list and spammers - Also EV forums?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Zillas not available?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If this is the same Schott Power Systems that supplied the battery chargers for
early GEM's, I can't find them any more. I contacted them about a year ago
since they still had that particular charger listed on their web site and I got
a response back from them saying that info was old and they didn't even realize
it was still on their web site until I pointed it out.
On that note, that particular charger has proved to be extremely unreliable,
I've reaplaced a half dozen of them, they offered no support either. They tend
to not just die either, they try and take the battery pack down with it. I
could be wrong, but to me it looks like they are gone because I was easily able
to find their web site last time.
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:56:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Schott Power?
To: [email protected]
Hi,
I was looking to contact someone at Schott Power for inverters and fast
chargers and can't find their website or contact info anymore. Does someone
know who assimilated them? What their new name is?
Thanks,
Mark
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunately that is not the case with my truck. If I do take my foot off
the gas and shift into neutral my RPM's do drop to about 700 and the
instantaneous MPG read out varies between 35 and 99 MPG. Now if I simply
take my foot off the gas and leave it in gear then yes my RPM's do not drop
much and the gas mileage is not nearly as good maybe 20-50mpg. Of curse
when I put my foot on the gas it drops to 5mpg.
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Drag on an electric motor
> I think I was not clear enough, and I beg forgivness. If you have the
> engine
> running, and tow or otherwise move the vehicle with external force, the
> transmission will have SOME of the engaging devices within it activate, as
> opposed to free wheeling. The engine would, instead of simply ideling
> while
> being towed, instead be forced to higher speed.
I don't believe this is true.
I don't normally drive an automatic, but as I recall, if you are driving
down the highway at 60 mph, and take your foot off the gas, the engine
speed will drop down to an idle while the car keeps moving at approx 60
mph.
Of course I may be wrong. As I said, I don't drive automatics all that
often.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have Z1K-HV motor controller #1012. It is complete with both a first
generation and second generation Hair ball interface, and a programmed
palm pilot and the instruction manuals to operate it. My cost $2773.75.
I wont need it until June of 2007. If any body wants it for $4000, it's
yours. Of course I may be taking a chance because they may be going for
$4500 by that time. On second thought, I don't think I want to sell it.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 9:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zillas not available?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zillas not available?
> Hey all
>
> I just had to chime in here. My turn-a-round time (or lack there
of)
more often than not sucks also! I'm not happy about it, but the other
choices of higher costs, a cheaper product, or working my life away are
for
me even more unappealing. Mostly (for me) it's just the time it takes
to do
it right. For those who might think "how hard could it be" and would
like
to have a motor build-off, say when! (to quote Tombstone) 8^P Hell I'll
even spot you a helper, hehehehe!
>
> Anyway I felt the website bordered on slander in order to promote
another produce rather than on it's own merit! Boo to those responsible
and
I issue my second "Hi-Torque Wienie" Award! What I find most often is
that
it always seems the guy crying foul the loudest is usually the biggest
cheat!
> Just my opinion.
>
> PS: For those concerned about pending orders, I'm pretty sure I can
beat
Otmar, LMAO, hehehehe!
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> Hey Jim!?
Anybody ELSE stepped to the plate and ordered a Siamese 8, 9 or 11
or
(Gasp) 13!?Like if you are building a racing trackless trolley.All that
free
power just hanging around in Seattle, Vancouver and SF. What a waste!
Bob
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With 250 kg (~540 lbs) of Lion in trunk (32 kWh) I have repeatedly
driven over 250km (156 mi). (216 Wh/mi)
With orignal batteries in this car (Citroén Berlingo, Ni-Cd) it took 16
kWh /100 km (266 Wh/mi).
With new set of lions in a much lighter car (Elcat) ~200 Wh/mi was recorded.
In current condition it still has something else to offer than just
range. (1k Zilla + 36*150Ah Li-Fe)
http://www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
With sweet AC system on it like Victor has in his CRX I would expect
much better readings. 160 Wh/mi should not be just a dream.
This small van has been used to deliver goods and I have recollection of
26 kWh/100 km figures (433 Wh/mi). And that was stop and go driving with
heater full on during winter with spiked tires and full load. Original
batts were SLAs.
Personally I believe that one of the biggest reason for such interest on
EVs again comes from the uncertainity of oil. It's not secure to rely on
such energy source. Gas (95 oct) was 1,4 per litre. (I think.. haven't
needed it for looong time.)
-Jukka
fevt.com
Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
guestimated?
Man, I want one.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
240Wh/mile.
Ask the list what people is averaging.
Victor
Mike Phillips wrote:
What kind of vehicles are you referring to Victor that are at
250wh/mile?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <ev@> wrote:
No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
There are no technical/engineering issues.
BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average "normal".
To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
We do what we can.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
cowtown wrote:
I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
fill-ups?
I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal
compared to
a pack recharge.
EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more than
most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could go
100mi";
This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40 mile
range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems from
the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and has
gone
on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the thought of
someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with a car
that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a charger
before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an F150..
It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd
build one
just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it can
be done(have done it).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>like not having to press an armature off to
>change the middle bearing. Keith and I have already
>discussed this and
>believe we have a good solution, but have not tried
it >yet.
Can you elaborate on this idea?
Thanks,
Rod
Hey Rod, all
Being that the bore hole in an 8" or even 9" motor is petty small it doesn't
have the spine to hang 100 Lbs. of armature spanning almost 3 feet and do 6 to
7K RPM's. John and I talked a lot about how to make this middle plate and
bearing assembly. In the end using the existing plate and bearing style easily
proved the cheapest route. I mean come on, even I figuered the damn thing was
gonna desintergrate the first run and didn't want to blow my whole wad on this
endever, hehehe.
At what point do the ends justify the means? For me I'm climbing the chain
one link at a time. As it turns out the stock plate has worked out great, so I
feel we didn't waste a bunch of time or money. The down side is you have to
press an armature down 30" of shaft, which the shaft isn't real happy about 8^
P Then comes the bearing, fan, and plate assembly, followed by the second
armature ^ "inverted". The output shaft is way larger than the bore hole and
makes doing it this way the only way.
Sorry to bore any who know what I'm talking about but I figuered I'd do some
recap.
To answer your question what Keith and I are thinking about doing is
broaching the commutator and armature body bore hole out to match the splines
of the shaft he makes and spanner nut it together. Armature gets cooked, just
slide it off like a sish kabob stick, lol. I believe the armatures will need
to have a spacing sleeve between the comm and the body like they used to do in
the old days to keep the comms from crushing. Lots of R&D needed, I know of no
one who's tried to broach out an armature before and in fact may prove
unsuccessful or overly exspensive 8...^ (
Actually it's really not that hard to remove the armature and change the
bearing out and that if it ever goes out. Hey Wayland you hear any middle
bearing noise from it?? LMAO!
For those who are new and have no idea of what I'm talking about see:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
Click on the Siamese 8 in the picture section
Where what we did is pretty well documented.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Eletcric
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
>If you want to do an EV conversion to save money,
>forget it. Payback period is too long.
It depends on how the car is built, with what components,
with what typical discharge the user places on the battery,
and how much the person drives.
I can think of many scenarios in which EVs pay themselves
back in only a few years. It just depends on a person's
needs, what considerations they made when designing their
car, and what components they used.
If one wants to save money with an EV conversion, they have
to design it for that purpose.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 4, 2006, at 12:13 PM, David Brandt wrote:
I'm planning my reg installation, and would love to hear
recommendations and see some pictures of how others have done theirs.
It's not on the road yet, but here's how I mounted my regulators (and
the Orbital batteries, too).
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/pictures/mountingregulators/>
Should I look for enclosures, some kind of plastic box to keep them
dry?
Ideally, these things should be potted, or conformal coated, or
something besides a bare board. But then what would they cost?
Or will they heat up too much if I do that? How do others keep them
cool while keeping them dry, too?
Are your batteries out in the weather?
I do remember the post regarding not placing them directly on a
battery, as they get too hot.
But the temp compensation feature won't work unless the regs are close
to the battery, or you use a remote temp sensor.
Mine are mounted about half an inch above each battery. We'll see how
it works out when it's running.
Thanks in advance!
David Brandt
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I dunno ... I think I'd take the gamble, sell it for $4000 using the
money to pre-pay/ordering a 2KW zilla!
Ralph.
rcboyd wrote:
I have Z1K-HV motor controller #1012. It is complete with both a first
generation and second generation Hair ball interface, and a programmed
palm pilot and the instruction manuals to operate it. My cost $2773.75.
I wont need it until June of 2007. If any body wants it for $4000, it's
yours. Of course I may be taking a chance because they may be going for
$4500 by that time. On second thought, I don't think I want to sell it.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 9:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zillas not available?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Zillas not available?
Hey all
I just had to chime in here. My turn-a-round time (or lack there
of)
more often than not sucks also! I'm not happy about it, but the other
choices of higher costs, a cheaper product, or working my life away are
for
me even more unappealing. Mostly (for me) it's just the time it takes
to do
it right. For those who might think "how hard could it be" and would
like
to have a motor build-off, say when! (to quote Tombstone) 8^P Hell I'll
even spot you a helper, hehehehe!
Anyway I felt the website bordered on slander in order to promote
another produce rather than on it's own merit! Boo to those responsible
and
I issue my second "Hi-Torque Wienie" Award! What I find most often is
that
it always seems the guy crying foul the loudest is usually the biggest
cheat!
Just my opinion.
PS: For those concerned about pending orders, I'm pretty sure I can
beat
Otmar, LMAO, hehehehe!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Hey Jim!?
Anybody ELSE stepped to the plate and ordered a Siamese 8, 9 or 11
or
(Gasp) 13!?Like if you are building a racing trackless trolley.All that
free
power just hanging around in Seattle, Vancouver and SF. What a waste!
Bob
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 4, 2006, at 4:22 PM, steve clunn wrote:
Now if sombody will put up 1000 dollars to the first person to drive a
ev 1000 miles ibn 24 hours I'll get started .
You've already lost :) Roland did that in the 70s.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unlike an electric motor, which for a given rotation revolves in a
continuous and even rate, the individual rotations of a piston-driven
motor are characterized by a series of accelerations and decelerations.
The sparkplug fires, and the piston and connecting rod thrust hard
against the crankshaft, which accelerates. Then the piston reaches
bottom dead center, losing energy, as simultaneously the cam chain
encounters the resistance of the valve springs, which induces a small
deceleration in the rate of the crankshaft's rotation. There is some
resistance/friction by an automatic transmission (and straight drive
gear boxes), de-acceleration, upon letting off an accelerator. This is
incorporated by design to "control" the speed of a vehicle and prevent
chatter in the gearbox itself; in fact, in some states it is illegal to
"knock" a straight drive (despite the fact fact you can simply depress
the clutch) or automatic (into neutral) out of gear to coast. The
degree of deceleration is dependent upon the gear you are in, torque
converter, wear on the clutch(es), engine resistance, etc. With all
this in mind, a transmission will "freewheel", there has even been some
suggestion to harness the kinetic energy lost during the freewheeling of
a driveline during deceleration. I believe most of these involve some
sort of rotating mass. Naturally increasing the weight of a vehicle
equates less highway mileage, I imagine the idea might be more pragmatic
for someone in a urban or city driving environment.
... just blabbin'
Ralph.
David J. Hrivnak wrote:
Fortunately that is not the case with my truck. If I do take my foot off
the gas and shift into neutral my RPM's do drop to about 700 and the
instantaneous MPG read out varies between 35 and 99 MPG. Now if I simply
take my foot off the gas and leave it in gear then yes my RPM's do not drop
much and the gas mileage is not nearly as good maybe 20-50mpg. Of curse
when I put my foot on the gas it drops to 5mpg.
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Drag on an electric motor
I think I was not clear enough, and I beg forgivness. If you have the
engine
running, and tow or otherwise move the vehicle with external force, the
transmission will have SOME of the engaging devices within it activate, as
opposed to free wheeling. The engine would, instead of simply ideling
while
being towed, instead be forced to higher speed.
I don't believe this is true.
I don't normally drive an automatic, but as I recall, if you are driving
down the highway at 60 mph, and take your foot off the gas, the engine
speed will drop down to an idle while the car keeps moving at approx 60
mph.
Of course I may be wrong. As I said, I don't drive automatics all that
often.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How fast, and for how long, did you subject those Li-ions to during the
250km commute, and how continuous was the trip?
Thanks,
Ralph.
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
With 250 kg (~540 lbs) of Lion in trunk (32 kWh) I have repeatedly
driven over 250km (156 mi). (216 Wh/mi)
With orignal batteries in this car (Citroén Berlingo, Ni-Cd) it took
16 kWh /100 km (266 Wh/mi).
With new set of lions in a much lighter car (Elcat) ~200 Wh/mi was
recorded.
In current condition it still has something else to offer than just
range. (1k Zilla + 36*150Ah Li-Fe)
http://www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
With sweet AC system on it like Victor has in his CRX I would expect
much better readings. 160 Wh/mi should not be just a dream.
This small van has been used to deliver goods and I have recollection
of 26 kWh/100 km figures (433 Wh/mi). And that was stop and go driving
with heater full on during winter with spiked tires and full load.
Original batts were SLAs.
Personally I believe that one of the biggest reason for such interest
on EVs again comes from the uncertainity of oil. It's not secure to
rely on such energy source. Gas (95 oct) was 1,4 per litre. (I think..
haven't needed it for looong time.)
-Jukka
fevt.com
Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
guestimated?
Man, I want one.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
240Wh/mile.
Ask the list what people is averaging.
Victor
Mike Phillips wrote:
What kind of vehicles are you referring to Victor that are at
250wh/mile?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <ev@> wrote:
No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
There are no technical/engineering issues.
BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average "normal".
To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
We do what we can.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
cowtown wrote:
I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
fill-ups?
I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal
compared to
a pack recharge.
EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more than
most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could go
100mi";
This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40 mile
range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems from
the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and has
gone
on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the
thought of
someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with a
car
that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a charger
before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an F150..
It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd
build one
just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it can
be done(have done it).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I just through up a short blurt on the site and posted 3 pics of the new
brush ring I made for Rod.
Hope you enjoy.
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out the FAQ at evparts.com
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: August 4, 2006 12:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: This list and spammers - Also EV forums?
Just an observation, but my spam filter goes into overdrive any time I post
to this list. Seems someone uses the email addresses to send out a boat load
of spam, and that is with a gmail account. Gmail is very good at
pre-filtering spam. I used to get maybe 5 spams in my spam folder a week,
but now can get over 100 a day.
I'm new to the EV list and a lot of the terms, brands and acronyms are new
to me. Any good EV based forums out there so I can look at older projects
and the such? Going through the archives of this list is not much fun.
Thanks,
-Wayne
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, maybe I am a bit of a cynic. Lets say I purchase a 1980 car with a
blown engine, maybe an old beetle or Porsche for $1000. I can then purchase
an 8" ADC and a Curtis controller for about $3k. 120V worth of batteries
might cost about another $1000. So for $5k I can have an electric beetle
for 40km (30mi)? Sounds a bit low, but possible. Maybe say $6k including
all the fabricating.
Ok, for $6k, I can also purchase a $2k 1995 Geo Metro, which gets 50mpg
city/highway. Then I have $4k left to spend on gasoline.
How long is the payback for this?
Although I may be a cynic, I would surely like to see how a cheap EV
conversion can be a few year payback.
Now don't let me piss on anyone's parade, I love EVs. I truly think that
electric motors are the future of vehicles (I am unsure of batteries
though). I am happily driving my EV most every day.
I just do not want to delude anybody that EV conversions, given today's
options, are cheap.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Westlund
Sent: August 4, 2006 5:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
Don Cameron wrote:
>If you want to do an EV conversion to save money, forget it. Payback
>period is too long.
It depends on how the car is built, with what components, with what typical
discharge the user places on the battery, and how much the person drives.
I can think of many scenarios in which EVs pay themselves back in only a few
years. It just depends on a person's needs, what considerations they made
when designing their car, and what components they used.
If one wants to save money with an EV conversion, they have to design it for
that purpose.
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> To be sure a 1000 mile range is pretty rediculous. Very few
> people ever drive more than 500-700 miles in a single day.
Very few people can go more than 300 miles without having to pee...
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My 72v 660lb motorcycle gets 120Wh/m with a series motor and alltrax
controller.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
240Wh/mile.
Ask the list what people is averaging.
Victor
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Don Cameron wrote:
> So for $5k I can have an electric beetle for 40km (30mi)?
> Sounds a bit low, but possible. Maybe say $6k including
> all the fabricating.
You could certainly do it more cheaply than this. My own conversion
cost me about $3k (8" ADC, GE EV-1 SCR controller, 120V pack).
> Ok, for $6k, I can also purchase a $2k 1995 Geo Metro, which
> gets 50mpg city/highway. Then I have $4k left to spend on
> gasoline.
>
> How long is the payback for this?
Probably never ;^> Even in my case, with an initial investment of only
about $3k, it may never break even. *IF* the Metro actaully got 50mpg
on my commute, this would cost me $1.65/day in gas (at $1.15/litre), or
about $1.50/day more than driving the EV. 5 days/week, 52 weeks/yr =
$390/yr savings on fuel. But, this means 520 cycles per year (to about
50%DOD), which means a pack of batteries will likely wear out in about
3yrs (at best). For my Optimas this means a battery cost of $666/yr, so
the EV costs me about $276 more to operate per year than the 50mpg
Metro... As long as we assume the Metro never needs ICE-related
maintenance that the EV doesn't.
With the $1000 pack of floodeds and the same 3yr life expectancy, the
battery cost is $333, so the EV saves $57/year, and it would take only
52 years (and a bit ;^) to recover the $3k cost of my conversion. ;^>
Sometimes the payback isn't measured in $$$ ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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I think anybody getting into this should understand that it's a hobby as
well as a vehicle. Just like you don't expect a sailboat to pay for
itself in the transportation it provides, an EV does not rely on its
economics to justify its choice. Now a sailboat is a aesthetically
pleasant experience, the EV could be viewed as even a higher calling as
an attempt to help the country and the environment. One could also say
one vehicle is only a token gesture and counts for little in itself.
This is true. It's there to set an example, to show that it can be done
even with a garage, decades-old battery tech, and fairly low-tech
tools. That's socially significant. In some ways that means more than
the Tesla Roadster.
If you knew a single mom with 2 kids and a low-paying job, and even if
she said she doesn't need to run it outside of town, honestly, I don't
think many would feel comfortable recommending it to save money. If you
did the used car salesman's hard sell to try to sell it to a guy who
doesn't care about EVs, just wants to save money, chances are he's gonna
be pissed the first time something goes wrong or simply realizing the
limitations and it could contribute to the field as a whole getting a
bad rap.
Danny
Don Cameron wrote:
John, maybe I am a bit of a cynic. Lets say I purchase a 1980 car with a
blown engine, maybe an old beetle or Porsche for $1000. I can then purchase
an 8" ADC and a Curtis controller for about $3k. 120V worth of batteries
might cost about another $1000. So for $5k I can have an electric beetle
for 40km (30mi)? Sounds a bit low, but possible. Maybe say $6k including
all the fabricating.
Ok, for $6k, I can also purchase a $2k 1995 Geo Metro, which gets 50mpg
city/highway. Then I have $4k left to spend on gasoline.
How long is the payback for this?
Although I may be a cynic, I would surely like to see how a cheap EV
conversion can be a few year payback.
Now don't let me piss on anyone's parade, I love EVs. I truly think that
electric motors are the future of vehicles (I am unsure of batteries
though). I am happily driving my EV most every day.
I just do not want to delude anybody that EV conversions, given today's
options, are cheap.
Don
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I look at the cost issue a little differently. The conversion cost
displaces purchase cost, we don't ask about payback on car purchases do we ?
I was faced with owning 2 cars over 120K miles and in need of
replacement. the options:
1) prius $25,000 a 5 year loan would be $400/month + gasoline,oil
changes,etc.
Insight or civic, about the same
about $250/month in gas and oil
first 5 years, $650/month
2) Convert a 300zx, $8,000 + $300 for doner
about $130 if I got a loan and $20/month electricity +$50/month
battery pro-rate
first 5 years, about $200/month.
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Wayne,
The weight isn't necessarily a negative. If designed properly the weight in
batteries mounted low can significantly lower your
center of gravity. I think your roll over angles woulg increase significantly.
And if I'm not wrong wouldn't a rock crawler
benefit from more unspring weight? Just mount the motor right to the
differential, turn it 90 degrees up through the bed.
This'll free up the room between the rails for the ballast (battery) trays.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Wayne
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 1:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Sporty, practical=lightweight, long range EV
Benefits to an offroad vehicle like a Samurai are:
1) motor can run upside down as I am no longer need to maintain engine oil
pressure.
2) improved engine response and power at very low RPMs (great for rock
crawling).
3) near silent operation should allow for seeing more wildlife, and less
headache.
4) may not need to re-gear vehicle to make ICE work well in the big
obstacles.
The negatives I see are:
1) expense
2) weight
3) loss of storage space in a small vehicle.
4) complexity of systems.
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Speed has been about 80-90 km/h (50-55 mph). Trip has taken over 10
hours since I drive regulary to inlaws 100 km (60 miles) and spend a day
in there and drive back. Usually I do charge to keep DOD shallow but
have been driving with some test gear on too. So done that without
charging also.
Few times I have taken other route back and visited other relatives. It
adds the trip to quite exact 250 km (156 miles).
The GPS function can be also programmed to record the route. It would be
fun to see how the Ahs go along the route. Should I consider some other
more economic route .. Stuff like that.
This van can still hold even double amout of energy in its trunk. Just
for a test drive. Now I'm updating it to new set of cells and will add
it up to 50 cells. Same 200 Ah Li-Co cells. Newsest BMS in it too.
Charger will be upgraded too from ~2kW up to 3,2 kW.
Only shitty thing with this car is that it has only 2 seats. Rest of the
family has to take the diesel car to get there. Whatta waste!
-Jukka
With new set of lions in a much lighter car (Elcat) ~200 Wh/mi was
recorded.
In current condition it still has something else to offer than just
range. (1k Zilla + 36*150Ah Li-Fe)
http://www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
With sweet AC system on it like Victor has in his CRX I would expect
much better readings. 160 Wh/mi should not be just a dream.
This small van has been used to deliver goods and I have recollection
of 26 kWh/100 km figures (433 Wh/mi). And that was stop and go driving
with heater full on during winter with spiked tires and full load.
Original batts were SLAs.
Personally I believe that one of the biggest reason for such interest
on EVs again comes from the uncertainity of oil. It's not secure to
rely on such energy source. Gas (95 oct) was 1,4 per litre. (I think..
haven't needed it for looong time.)
-Jukka
fevt.com
Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
guestimated?
Man, I want one.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
240Wh/mile.
Ask the list what people is averaging.
Victor
Mike Phillips wrote:
What kind of vehicles are you referring to Victor that are at
250wh/mile?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <ev@> wrote:
No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
There are no technical/engineering issues.
BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average "normal".
To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
We do what we can.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
cowtown wrote:
I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi between
fill-ups?
I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal
compared to
a pack recharge.
EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more than
most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could go
100mi";
This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40 mile
range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems from
the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and has
gone
on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the
thought of
someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with a
car
that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a charger
before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an F150..
It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd
build one
just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it can
be done(have done it).
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I wouldn't offer this out of the blue but since you asked, Cloud Electric
fielded my first request for quote for ALL my parts.
Since the different options on several items incurred extra cost and since they
didn't list the cost of options on their website I
wanted hard prices for exactly what I wanted to order. I buy 6 to 7 $$ figures
of electronic equipment a year and it is not
uncommon to ask for requotes if the desires change. The vendors with the good
products AND the good customer service always get
called back. When talking with Cloud Electric on the phone I felt I was being a
pain in their side. No problem. I go somewhere
else. Then I received a couple rather rude e-mails, not the way to regain lost
customers. Anyway take it for what its worth. I'd
heed the recommendations in this thread.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 6:03 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Zillas not available?
>
>
> I have never ordered anything from Cloud Electric, so I don't know much about
> them.
> If you can, could you elaborate on the "integrity and performance" that Cloud
> Electric lacked?
> Just curious...
>
> Ken
>
>
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