EV Digest 6480
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Optima batteries
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Zilla for the newbie?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Plasma Boy Gets a 50" Plasma ...'Video Only' Supports EV Drag Racing!
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Nicad update and PFC charger
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Questions on EV
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV math is not my strong point
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) May issue of Car and Driver confirmed
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Questions on EV
by Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV math is not my strong point
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Questions on EV
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) local EV parts retailers
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) (no subject)
by Jason Franzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Thanks
by Jason Franzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: White Zombie History
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: White Zombie History
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Plasma Boy Gets a
50" Plasma ...'Video Only' Supports EV Drag Racing!
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVLN(Bush spent 5min looking at EVs)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Thanks
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV math is not my strong point
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) You Tube Fun !WAS Re: White Zombie History
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) No Limp Guages in EV's
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
One question, is the agm replacement going to be rechargable like an AGM
battery? So an alternator can charge it, or a leadacid charger? That would be
ideal, imho! Drop in replacement like the Valance cells.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 2:17:40 PM
Subject: Re: Optima batteries
I worked in plastics for almost 25 years. (I have moved on)
polypropylene (affectionately called polycandlewax) is the worst plastic
in a combustible situation. There are additives that can be added to
suppress the flame but they all give off a chemical fume that has to be
inhaled once to appreciate. The real problem is that PP can melt and
turn to a liquid and flow like water while burning with a nice clean
flame. It has been used for batteries because it is cheap and the acid
doesn't effect it. About 3500 plastics are added tothe plastics database
each year, surly there is something better.
Question. Since I am working on a lithium-ion AGM replacement design (no
worries, I work slow, no $) I would like the answer to this question:
Would you be willing to pay $2-$10 more per battery for the added safety?
I know this is partially based on the cost of the battery. I can't even
estimate as I am working on the design in the hopes that by the time I
am ready for the 144 cells, they will have dropped in price; dramatically.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
According to that site, the Prius averages 47 - 48 MPG from real user data.
Pretty accurate!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
Heres a very good website with many models of cars, and tells you what
people driving that model are really averaging in the real world.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=browseList
From: bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: evlist <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:38:05 -0800 (PST)
EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?page=article&Article_ID=14232
Daily Policy Digest Environment Issues February 23, 2007
CAR M.P.G. RATINGS GOING DOWN
Fuel-saving gasoline-electric hybrid cars don't save as much fuel
as thought, according to new government fuel-economy ratings
available to the public for the first time.
The new ratings go into effect beginning with 2008 models, a few
of which will soon be on sale. But now it's possible to tell
what rating 2007 and older models would get using the 2008
standards.
Toyota's Prius, the best-known and best-selling gas-electric car
in the United States, drops from a 60 mpg rating under the
current system to 48 miles per gallon in the city under the 2008
testing procedure -- a 20 percent decline.
Its highway mileage rating falls about 12 percent, to 45 mpg.
The Ford Escape hybrid, which uses a gasoline-electric drive
system similar to Toyota's, goes down about 12 percent.
"What the cars get hasn't changed. It's just the numbers on the
sticker," says Toyota spokesman Mike Michels. The lowered Prius
rating is "probably more reflective of real-world experience," he
says.
Tests the government has used for mileage estimates were created
in the 1970s and haven't reflected today's driving environment.
They have assumed, for instance, that people don't use air
conditioning and don't drive more than about 60 mph.
Source: James R. Healey, "Car mpg ratings going down; Hybrids
take biggest hit in new system," USA Today, February 23, 2007.
For text:
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070223/1a_lede23x_dom.art.htm
For website: www.fueleconomy.gov
For more on Gasoline/Petroleum:
http://eteam.ncpa.org/issues/?c=gasoline-and-petroleum
For more on Environment Issues:
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_Category=31
We depend on the financial support of individuals. We need your
help to continue our work. Join the NCPA today!
Copyright © 2007 National Center for Policy Analysis. All rights
reserved
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
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From January 26 to February 8, 2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I knew when I tried the jabsco from the local boat place that it was a
temporary thing. It lasted longer than I thought but, as expected and
hopefully communicated, was a noisey power hog. The MCP350 is
continous duty adopted by the computer geeks, but designed and built by
delphi to cool automotive electronics. I still think it is too small for
the zilla....time will tell.
On a side note I took the EV to work today two batteries that were the
next two weakest showed lowvoltage led's on the trip their and all was
ok until the last block when more leds came on and I had a hard time
keeping the voltage above a safe point. I will drive it a couple days in
a row to see if they wake back up, but I fear that the 4 weak batteries
(2 i just replaced) all gotta go.
I know i don't want to replace the pack one battery at a time, I can't
replace it now and I don't need full range. I need it makeing the trip
to and from work to solve issues with both of my cars.
I am also considering bb600's. It doesn't seem like I would save much
weight or space.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:50 PM, John Wayland wrote:
All who walk down the entrance stairs into the lobby on their way into
the show will be hit right between the eyes with White Zombie on
display (both in person and on a bright big plasma screen) as it melts
its fat rear tires, jerks its front tires off the ground, and blows
away muscle cars and hot imports. I somehow, talked the video chain
'Video Only' into providing a brand new, Hi Def 50 inch Panasonic
TH50PX 600U plasma screen and DVD player setup! I also got an even
better spot for White Zombie, showcased right next to the souveneer
booth at the arena entrance-exit. Tim and I got together and designed
a looping DVD that features action racing videos with added-in screen
captions like 'Electric Datsun vs 396 Chevelle' ....'Electric Datsun
vs 454 Camaro', etc. There's lots of tire smoke, roaring V8s, and
whistling-swooshing turbos as the gas-fueled competition struggles to
catch White Zombie, the electric muscle car.
Oh yea!! Great job Plasma Boy (when does that become Bearded Plasma
Man? :-)
I don't know what other EVers think but I know what I see. I see hard
work paying off for the EV community. Racing is a large part of what
defined the current ICE age. EVs are different, not better or worse,
just a different way to do what you want. Racing showcased the strength
of the ICE. Now racing is doing the same for EVs.
Way to go John! (I want to get in a major show someday :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee stated he thought that was the case, but I heard from Randy Johnson
at Xantrex that
"units purchased after 2000 will most likely have the alarm feature
included
You may want to test the alarm function lowering the voltage to the
sense lead then check with a volt meter between position 5 and position
7 after around 15 seconds the position 7 will go to ground thus battery
voltage will be displayed on the meter "
I tested mine and sure enough it was there once I turned on the alarm
function (f14 I think).
I still don't quite see how I am going to set it up though. I am
running NiCad too and want to trigger the charger from the amp hours
reading. I think I have to actually use when the alarm goes off
(recharged setting) since the alarm ON (shorted to ground)has to be min.
10% below full. I'll need an invert in there or something. To tired to
think about it tonight, but I'll be working on it on the bench this week
I hope.
-Garret
JerryD wrote> ...Newer E meters still
have the relay circuit on the PC board but you have to
repopulate it with it's parts I hear. Maybe Rich or someone
else can help you better. But voltage for ni-cads is not a
good indicator to tell when charged.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:29 PM 2/26/2007, you wrote:
Cool what kind of motor, controller, and electronics does it have?
and at what speeds/driving did you get that high range at?
The DC system has an ADC 9" motor and Curtis 1221 or 1231 controller
and a 120V pack using US-125 batteries. The range results have been
feedback from various customers in daily driving and rally
situations, so it's mixed speeds. The super high range one was in a
rally loop of primarily in-town driving, some stops.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and Chip,
The T-shirt design looks great.
I thought you waited to pull than panic button until the end of the drag strip.
;-)
And awesome job getting sponsorship on the video screen. Your ability to
generate excitement for EV racing is incredible.
I hope to see you this weekend.
Regards,
Chris Brune
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hello to All,
>
> I'm sooooo excited that my friend Chip Gribben has designed a new
> T-shirt for me! For those unaware, Chip is 'the' force behind all of the
> coolest looking cartoon artwork that has transformed NEDRA the past few
> years. From the Power of DC, to Battery Beach Burnout, to the Late Night
> Nationals, they're all Chip's handiwork. After seeing his rendition of
> White Zombie alongside Gone Postal on the Late Night Nationals design, I
> just knew I had to have White Zombie T-shirts. Rather than tell everyone
> how great it looks, simply go to http://www.plasmaboyracing.com, then
> click on the 'Photos' button. Tomorrow, I'll be at a local T-shirt
> printer to have the first dozen shirts made up, so the Plasma Boy team
> can wear them at this weekend's 'Portland Roadster Show.
>
> Make sure to post back to the EVDL and let Chip know what you all think!
> When available for sale, all profits will go to Chip to help cover his
> art supply costs. Chip has never asked for anything in return for all
> his efforts, I just think we need to support this great EVer.
>
> See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
What kind of charger do you use? What vehicle do you have with BB600's
in it? How many miles do you have on BB600's?
I have 3000 miles on a pack of 252 cells.
> Some E meters have a relay on it you can set
> to control another relay to shut the charger off when it's
> filled the set amount based on amp out. Newer E meters still
> have the relay circuit on the PC board but you have to
> repopulate it with it's parts I hear. Maybe Rich or someone
> else can help you better. But voltage for ni-cads is not a
> good indicator to tell when charged.
>
I'm not sure why you say that voltage is a bad indicator. Nicads have
a very pronounced knee. Many nicad chargers depend on that knee.
Trying to detect the knee of NIMH for instance is alot harder.
Although I've successfully done that too. Both the civilian manuals
and military manuals use voltage as an indicator of state of charge.
>
> That's probably not a good idea. While it may work as
> long as the batts are in balance, if they get out it will
> get nasty and never shut off.
> I'd switch to the Emeter circuit.
How do you monitor and charge your BB600 pack?
>
> That maybe for jet fighter use where they are
> replaced after a couple yrs so life is not maximized. While
> it maybe be cold enough where you are that it just keeps
> them warm.
I live in California. It's not cold here. In the summer the highest
temp I ever saw was 40 degrees Centigrade, and that was during
driving, and that was only one time. Charging has never risen the pack
more than a couple degrees above ambient air temps. The max continuous
duty temp is 65 degree C. 1.587v is not much overcharge.
But overcharging is going to lead to corrorsion.
> I'll do the 110% equalizing and 90-100% charges
> between them on mine.
In fact undercharging liquid nicads is FAR worse for them than
overcharging. In the BB600 Yahoo group, if you go to pdf page 9 of the
BB6600a manual, they describe that if you do not go to 20-40%
overcharge that the cell is in fact not fully charged. I've quoted it
here. "Because the charging of the nickel-oxide positive electrode is
not 100% efficient, an overcharge of 20-40% is usually required to
bring the battery to full capacity".
Alkaline cells like nicads don't tend to corrode like the plates in
lead acid batterys. That's why the plates in any alkaline cell tend to
last many decades in service. Edison's nickel iron cells never had
plate corrosion. The KOH electrolyte would get a bit contaminated, was
changed and the cells put back in service. They went for 50+ years.
That's the advantage of alkaline based cells. Our nicads are just the
next generation of his cells.
>
> My temperature monitor shows
> >that they stay around room temperature when overcharging as
> >I currently do. In fact the pack may be overcharging much
> >less than the 20-40% that I use to charge them to.
>
> Lets hope so and your voltage you charge to
> supports that. How many amps you you charge after reaching
> 1.587/cell?
One tenth of an amp when the pack is at 400v.
>
> The big
> >bang was due to excess hydrogen production made from having
> >slightly reversed (-0.1v) cells during the maintenance
> >discharge process that I put them through per the battery
> >manual. This manual that says every 100 cycles or so that
> >the cells should be discharged to zero volts and held there
> >for 24 hours. It also shows that mild reversal produces
> >excess hydrogen, while hard reversal produces excess
> >oxygen. I had the pack uncovered the entire time. I even
> >drove it on an errand before it exploded.
>
> Wow! I never did that with my small cells. Nor will I
> do it for my pack. Again it might be something they do for
> the military or required by them.
I'm a believer in following the directions per the manufacturer. The
directions I followed were specifically for equalizing the cells. In
fact in several publications this is commonly referred to as cell
reconditioning. It's not for the military specifically, but for wet
cell nicads in military and civilian use.
>
> >
> >> To equalize I charged to 1.65/cell but only did
> >> that every 5 cycles or without any balancing problems.
> >> And about 1.5-1.55 between equalizing charges. Be
> >> careful using this as it can rise above that, then drop
> >> off as it becomes too charged so voltage other than the
> >> 90% dischage is not a good judge of state of charge
> >> unless you are tracking it and even then can be tricky as
> >> one cell rises as another gets overcharged and falls,
> >making the knee hard to detect.
As I said before, the knee for nicads is so distinct, that even with
less than perfect equalization, the peak detecting method is reliable.
Since the cells are not getting warmer then the pack is not being
hammered.
How do you track the temperature of your cells?
> >
> >>From my observations of the pack during charging, the pack
> >is in the knee, but not past it. You and I are charging to
> >nearly the same volts per cell. I cannot equalize to 1.65v
> >as my charger only goes to 400vdc. So I can't go above
> >1.587 vpc unless I remove several cells and still try to
> >charge to 400v.
>
> With the after charging you are surely fully charged.
> But if you keep using it that way, when the cells get out of
> balance, rare but can happen. With that charge regime, I
> wouldn't go higher anyway as you can more easily get into
> the voltage knee problem.
I'm not worried, but thanks for the additional warning.
> >
> >The Greentops are probably around 50ah max. The tests I've
> >done show them to be higher than the redtops I also own.
> >The greentops are labeled 40-45ah depending on the
> >discharge rate.
>
> Want to trade? ;^D
> Try to get a whole pack of the same type if you are
> using both in the same string. Especially if you continue to
> short them for maintance or short, recharge the 2 types
> seperately or the smaller amphr units will badly reverse and
> while tough, would only last a few of those cycles. And set
> your range to monitoring just the smaller amphr cells.
>
I had a complete matched set plus spare purchased, but the military
swooped in and took over half of them. So I ended up short. I now have
some additional cells that are much closer in capacity. I may put them
in to replace the lower capacity redtops. My philosophy has always
been to monitor and regulate packs in an EV. This pack has been so
much fun, that I have all but abandoned my monitor/regulation
projects. I suppose I could mechanically adapt my previous regulators
to these nicads, but I want a more tidy, compact system this time around.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan,
I'm wondering why you think 348V is a limiting factor?
>From what I understand generally we want to limit the motor voltage to about
>170 volts. If your batteries, under load, are any higher than this then the
>controller is PWMing the battery voltage down to 170 volts (motor voltage
>limit mode).
So the key is to design a battery pack that under load that doesn't sag below
170 volts, and has a nominal voltage of 348 volts or less.
It would appear that this is exactly the issue the John will attempt to rectify
with the latest battery pack in Zombie.
Regards,
Chris Brune
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Big Zilla2K of course. After spending $5,000 on a box, I'd really
> like to run a lot more voltage. 348 volts seems to me to be holding
> back the EV performance world. 360 is doable but likely frowned upon.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is interesting. My Emeter was installed when the truck was
assembled. So it is about a 1996 vintage Emeter. I will see if there
is an alarm function.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Lee stated he thought that was the case, but I heard from Randy Johnson
> at Xantrex that
> "units purchased after 2000 will most likely have the alarm feature
> included
> You may want to test the alarm function lowering the voltage to the
> sense lead then check with a volt meter between position 5 and position
> 7 after around 15 seconds the position 7 will go to ground thus battery
> voltage will be displayed on the meter "
>
> I tested mine and sure enough it was there once I turned on the alarm
> function (f14 I think).
>
> I still don't quite see how I am going to set it up though. I am
> running NiCad too and want to trigger the charger from the amp hours
> reading. I think I have to actually use when the alarm goes off
> (recharged setting) since the alarm ON (shorted to ground)has to be min.
> 10% below full. I'll need an invert in there or something. To tired to
> think about it tonight, but I'll be working on it on the bench this week
> I hope.
> -Garret
>
> JerryD wrote> ...Newer E meters still
> have the relay circuit on the PC board but you have to
> repopulate it with it's parts I hear. Maybe Rich or someone
> else can help you better. But voltage for ni-cads is not a
> good indicator to tell when charged.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
OK...I don't want to sound like the boy who cried wolf....but....on a
day already filled with positive vibes over everything we have going on
right now, the icing on the cake was unexpectedly receiving an email
from Car and Driver's Ted West this evening. Ted started off his
typically funny email by saying "I know. I know. Not the April issue.
But....." He went on to tell me that it's a certain deal now, that NEDRA
drag racing and his first hand description of drag racing in White
Zombie, are indeed, in the May issue. He also said that the May issue is
already printed up, so this time it's for real.
I'll be making a last hour phone call to the magazine tomorrow, to see
if they'll send me some sort of snippet from the article, or perhaps one
of the many color photos from it, that I can reproduce for a large sized
stand-up for the show this weekend.
Speaking of articles, for those who haven't yet got a copy, the current
April issue of Hotrod magazine has a killer color photo and 1/2 page
very positive write-up of Killacycle...congrats again, Bill Dube' and crew!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The day the majority of hotrodders realize an electric vehicle can kick
their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will start to really take
off.
Already I look at classic hotrods and think "what an ancient slow
acceleration, clunker" which is a big difference from what I thought
just 2 or 3 yrs ago.
On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 8:45 pm, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
OK...I don't want to sound like the boy who cried wolf....but....on a
day already filled with positive vibes over everything we have going on
right now, the icing on the cake was unexpectedly receiving an email
from Car and Driver's Ted West this evening. Ted started off his
typically funny email by saying "I know. I know. Not the April issue.
But....." He went on to tell me that it's a certain deal now, that
NEDRA drag racing and his first hand description of drag racing in
White Zombie, are indeed, in the May issue. He also said that the May
issue is already printed up, so this time it's for real.
I'll be making a last hour phone call to the magazine tomorrow, to see
if they'll send me some sort of snippet from the article, or perhaps
one of the many color photos from it, that I can reproduce for a large
sized stand-up for the show this weekend.
Speaking of articles, for those who haven't yet got a copy, the current
April issue of Hotrod magazine has a killer color photo and 1/2 page
very positive write-up of Killacycle...congrats again, Bill Dube' and
crew!
See Ya......John Wayland
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "jerryd" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 03:46:54 -0000
>Jerry,
>
>What kind of charger do you use?
Regretfully a dumb one with a timer, but after
working with the packs, I can estimate it fairly well as I
only completely charged every 5 cycles or so to cut
watering.
What vehicle do you have
>with BB600's in it? How many miles do you have on BB600's?
None yet. Just getting the connectors together and
will put them in the Freedom EV probably. All my experience
is with 14amphr SAFT high power cells over 30 yrs old over 8
yrs of use..
>
>I have 3000 miles on a pack of 252 cells.
>
>
>> Some E meters have a relay on it you can
>> set to control another relay to shut the charger off when
>> it's filled the set amount based on amp out. Newer E
>> meters still have the relay circuit on the PC board but
>> you have to repopulate it with it's parts I hear. Maybe
>> Rich or someone else can help you better. But voltage for
>> ni-cads is not a good indicator to tell when charged.
>>
>
>I'm not sure why you say that voltage is a bad indicator.
>Nicads have a very pronounced knee. Many nicad chargers
>depend on that knee.
One should not get to the knee as that's well into
overcharging. SAFT's wants Amphr out/110% amphrs in type,
not voltage for their EV batteries and what I followed. They
are medium power types though, not high power types like the
BB600's, my 14amphr ones are.
Trying to detect the knee of NIMH for
>instance is alot harder. Although I've successfully done
>that too. Both the civilian manuals and military manuals
>use voltage as an indicator of state of charge.
It might work as long as they all knee together but
if the don't, the charger might never turn off or detect the
knee.
>
>>
>> That's probably not a good idea. While it may work
>> as long as the batts are in balance, if they get out it
>> will get nasty and never shut off.
>> I'd switch to the Emeter circuit.
>
>How do you monitor and charge your BB600 pack?
The 14amphr pack with a voltmeter on the cell
level at 1c.
>
>
>>
>> That maybe for jet fighter use where they are
>> replaced after a couple yrs so life is not maximized.
>> While it maybe be cold enough where you are that it just
>> keeps them warm.
>
>I live in California. It's not cold here. In the summer the
>highest temp I ever saw was 40 degrees Centigrade, and that
>was during driving, and that was only one time. Charging
>has never risen the pack more than a couple degrees above
>ambient air temps. The max continuous duty temp is 65
>degree C. 1.587v is not much overcharge.
Sorry, I thought you were in Alaska. Must have been
thinking of someone else. Hard to keep everyone straight.
Sounds like you may not be overcharging as much as
you think you are. If you were, those 2-4 kw/charge of extra
heat would show up.
>
>
>But overcharging is going to lead to corrorsion.
>> I'll do the 110% equalizing and 90-100% charges
>> between them on mine.
>
>In fact undercharging liquid nicads is FAR worse for them
>than overcharging. In the BB600 Yahoo group, if you go to
>pdf page 9 of the BB6600a manual, they describe that if you
>do not go to 20-40% overcharge that the cell is in fact not
>fully charged. I've quoted it here. "Because the charging
>of the nickel-oxide positive electrode is not 100%
>efficient, an overcharge of 20-40% is usually required to
>bring the battery to full capacity".
Maybe they are different than my nicads but I
never had problems undercharging my 14amphr SAFTs. Other
SAFTs use 105-110% of the power taken out.
>
>Alkaline cells like nicads don't tend to corrode like the
>plates in lead acid batterys.
That's why the plates in any
>alkaline cell tend to last many decades in service.
>Edison's nickel iron cells never had plate corrosion. The
>KOH electrolyte would get a bit contaminated, was changed
>and the cells put back in service. They went for 50+ years.
>That's the advantage of alkaline based cells. Our nicads
>are just the next generation of his cells.
>
>>
>> My temperature monitor shows
>> >that they stay around room temperature when overcharging
>> >as I currently do. In fact the pack may be overcharging
>> >much less than the 20-40% that I use to charge them to.
>>
>> Lets hope so and your voltage you charge to
>> supports that. How many amps you you charge after
>> reaching 1.587/cell?
>
>One tenth of an amp when the pack is at 400v.
Well that's not going to hurt anything!!
>>
>I'm a believer in following the directions per the
>manufacturer. The directions I followed were specifically
>for equalizing the cells. In fact in several publications
>this is commonly referred to as cell reconditioning. It's
>not for the military specifically, but for wet cell nicads
>in military and civilian use.
That's generally done rarely, after they have set
for a while unused, uncharged or after a lot of cycles.
>
>
>How do you track the temperature of your cells?
Hand. 130F is about all you can hold on to.
Jerry Dycus
>
>Mike
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jason,
Sunday, February 25, 2007, 1:38:52 AM, you wrote:
----snip--
JF> To tell you the
JF> truth I have about a million questions that I can think of to ask based
JF> on my ideas. Some specific questions are will the solar panels( so far
JF> I can only find ones that do about 6-8% that can bend enough to put on
JF> a car) generate enough electricity to justify the money spent? What do
----snip--
What about those flexible solar panels that Stan Ovshinsky showed
in the show "Who Killed The Electric Car?" The look very flexible.
Ross
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
Hi Ryan,
I'm wondering why you think 348V is a limiting factor?
What does 348 V sag too under load? What would 720 V sag to under
load? Not so bad huh?
If I've got 60, 12 V batteries in the car; I'd much rather have them
wired up in series then parallel. The good `ol DC motor would of
course be running at the prerequisite 170 V.
For fun, lets cherry pick some specs off this page for a custom motor:
http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html
Let's see here... Give me the 800 V motor, and 11,000 rpm, and no less
then 1253 lb ft of torque. Build that UQM. Stick it in your 150 mile
range Chevy truck and take it to CES and SEMA. Double the size of the
pack and see what happens to the range...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Iv'e also seen that movie it was very interesting, i also saw how flexible
those panels were they would definetly do the trick.
From: Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: Jason Franzman <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Questions on EV
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:03:17 -0600
Hello Jason,
Sunday, February 25, 2007, 1:38:52 AM, you wrote:
----snip--
JF> To tell you the
JF> truth I have about a million questions that I can think of to ask based
JF> on my ideas. Some specific questions are will the solar panels( so far
JF> I can only find ones that do about 6-8% that can bend enough to put on
JF> a car) generate enough electricity to justify the money spent? What do
----snip--
What about those flexible solar panels that Stan Ovshinsky showed
in the show "Who Killed The Electric Car?" The look very flexible.
Ross
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
Spaces. http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if there are any local EV parts retailers near calgary
alberta?
_________________________________________________________________
Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN
Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks a lot guys for all the great information and input, right now I am just
over whelmed with all the lingo and facts that are being thrown around.
Jason
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks guys for all the information and input. Right now I am just a little
overwhelmed by all the different lingo and facts that are being brought up.
This is really helpful thanks again.
Jason
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jim and All,
Jim Dempsey wrote:
I do have one criticism: The Hawker meltdown incident is completely glossed over.
You're correct, but it's not intentional. There is still a lot more
history stuff to add for many of the years. I do have some pictures of
ground zero from '98 and intend to put them up along with 'Plasma Boy
Quotes' about the incident, for some reason, I haven't yet gotten around
to it.
Perhaps your original telling of that tale could be linked at the page? It's a
cautionary tale every builder should know and keep to heart.
Good idea, and I agree with you cautioning every builder of the
seriousness of a stout EV battery pack.
I came up with a very simple safety item this time around, when placing
and bolting-in all those bus bars among 60, count 'em, 60 small and
powerful batteries. The batteries stack alongside each other like little
bricks, with their bus bars mere inches from each other. Tim and I cut a
small section from a fiberglass ladder rail, that when laid over
adjacent batteries, separates the battery terminals from one another. We
also leave out key sections here and there while we are working in
there, to reduce voltages and reduce the likelihood of plasma incidents.
Still, each time I reach into the pack and connect a bus bus, I have a
very clear image in my mind of 'what can happen'...you never get over
having a hissing, skin-peeling plasma ball floating right in front of
you, nor the thrill of having the fire department responding to your EV
fire!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out this awesome video of some power line plasma!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYUmdqQ94Ao
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is that like a Panasonic 50" Plasmaboy Display?
Dude, you could do advertising for Plasma Displays.
Panasonic oughtta be chipping in too.
People are gonna are gonna see White Zombie burned into
their retinas and go out and start buying EV's.....or Plasmaboy Displays :-O
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 4:50 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Plasma Boy Gets a 50" Plasma ...'Video Only' Supports EV Drag
> Racing!
>
>
> Hello to All,
>
> A reminder for those who live in the Portland metro area, The Portland
> Roadster Show opens this weekend, March 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, at the
> Portland Convention Center, and White Zombie is one of the featured
> cars. ...<snnip a bit>...I somehow, talked the video chain 'Video Only'
> into providing a brand new, Hi Def 50 inch Panasonic TH50PX 600U plasma
> screen and DVD player setup!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, but the pics of the EV's in front of the whitehouse is priceless...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of GWMobile
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EVLN(Bush spent 5min looking at EVs)
>
>
> > For all you know he may have had a case of the juicy squirts and been
> > singing the "gotta go, gotta go, gotta go right now" song in his head.
>
>
> Now that is funny. I will never watch presidential appearances the same
> way again.
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If there's any specific lingo you're wondering about, just ask.
I don't know if it has already been mentioned but have a look at the
EV album for some real world performance and range numbers
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
On 2/26/07, Jason Franzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks guys for all the information and input. Right now I am just a little
overwhelmed by all the different lingo and facts that are being brought up.
This is really helpful thanks again.
Jason
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I've got 60, 12 V batteries in the car; I'd much rather have them
wired up in series then parallel. The good `ol DC motor would of
course be running at the prerequisite 170 V.
That's not quite how it works though, the comm will still see the full
720V and most likely fireball instantly.
For fun, lets cherry pick some specs off this page for a custom motor:
http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheet.html
Let's see here... Give me the 800 V motor, and 11,000 rpm, and no less
then 1253 lb ft of torque. Build that UQM. Stick it in your 150 mile
range Chevy truck and take it to CES and SEMA. Double the size of the
pack and see what happens to the range...
Sure, no problem. Got a couple of million $$$ ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: White Zombie History
> Check out this awesome video of some power line plasma!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYUmdqQ94Ao
>
> Great Stuff! Remember to turn down your charger BEFORE ya plugitin!Did ya
surf around in there, see the great Transformer blow and burnup!?You tube is
so much fun!And alot of EV stuff nowadaze!The cute electric Airship?
My two 'stench chords worth!
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/702 - Release Date: 2/25/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Roden wrote:
How much? I'd expect some reduction in finish voltage
after 2 years of
use.
I was using the US batteries number of 2.583 per
cell and compensating for the temperature... This
typically led to a finish voltage of ~183V on my 144V
pack. I've had to reduce that to ~2.28V per cell or
164V finishing in order to keep the finish current
under 10 amps.
Aside from apparently cooking them through
overcharging, they've been babied, no heavy current
draws, no pulling the voltage low and only 8 or 9
cycles below 50%
TiM
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folk's
I could probably see an Andy Rooney segment on "don't you just hate limp
guages in EV's?" That's one of my favorites. I usually see the factory gauges
in a conversion limp on their peg with add on gauges tacked around under the
dash. Here's what I do to utilize the existing gauges:
Tach: Most tachs operate on the 12V back EMF spikes from the primary coil
releasing and is my cas (on the 74' 914 Porsche I'm converting) it operates as
a frequency counter independent of amplitude. I applied a 100 hertz square
wave from a signal generator into a reverse connected audio transformer 1:4
ratio to get the required 40-80V p-p needed to operate the guage. It pops up
at 40V p-p 3000 rpm's with 100 hertz (50 hertz is actually 3k rpm's). The tach
counts 2 pulses per rev since the suck-squeeze-pop-poowee of the ICE in a
4-cylinder is actually 2 pulses per rev. So you have to glue two magnets on
the ADC motor shaft and one hall effect device from say www.digikey.com and
connect to a 12V emmitter follower par using a 2N4401 NPN tied to 12V and a
2N4403 PNP to gnd. The output feeds the audio transformer and verify with a
scope that the tach is seeing a nominal 60Vp-p or you may have to invert the
signal into another buffer driver transistor pair for full-bridge
operation into the transformer primary to boost the output to the tach.
Temp Guage: For most auto temp gauges, check your shop manual wiring diagram
and put a 300 - 47 ohm resistor from where the sender was to GND (or use the
old sender). It's a low value NTC thermistor. I got a 600 ohm @ 25C from
digikey that is 45 ohms at 100C and works well epoxied into a battery lug and
bolted on top of the ADC motor.
Fuel Gauge: This is similar, try a 39 ohm resistor to ground and it should
read 1/2 a tank. The trick is in modulating this to the E-F of the battery
which requires an algorithm in your uP to PWM through an opto coupler with an
open collector transistor TIP110 and a 10 ohm resistor from the collector to
the gauge. The program decrements the 100-400hertz PWM every 3 minutes that
the state of battery charge per cell drops .02V from 2.2V full to 1.8V empty.
BTW, of those converting 74' Porsche 914's, there are two clutch pressure
plates available I discovered last night. I have the older 3 spring type (in
good condition) instead of the multifinger newer type. Is there a mechanical
advantage to replacing it with the newer design? Or was it just done to be
cheap? My clutch disengages near the floor even with a new disc, my adapter
may be too thick.
Thanks,
Mark
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