EV Digest 6486
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Blind EV's
by Janez Svetlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Geo
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Of US Battery and Trojans
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tango lane splitting
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Geo
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Geo
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV's ... and Other Stuff
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ZIF Recommendation
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Geo
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Tango lane splitting
by "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Woes (An Update!)
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Woes (An Update!)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
OK Jack, here is a real world problem already solved by EVs versus gasoline
powered vehicles in all of your mentioned criteria. I am involved with golf
cars so I know a bit about the industry. Electric golf cars far outsell
gasoline versions. They also sell for less money than their gasoline
counterparts of the same make and model. They have lower maintenance costs
and have plenty of range for their intended purpose. If electric cars were
mass produced they should cost less than gasoline versions and they would
have much lower maintenance costs. With 300 plus moving parts alone in the
gas motor compared to 1 in and electric you do not have to be much of a
scientist to figure this out.
One of the big drawbacks of gasoline powered vehicles is their limited
range, at least to my way of thinking. After all, the whole deal is one of
perception. Even if I only drive 40 or so miles a day I do not feel
comfortable and secure unless I have a 2000 mile range. Of course that is my
personal perception. Yours may vary. By the way, what kind of range do you
get with an RC car? That is why neither gasoline nor electric cars will
make me happy from a range perception. They are both just too limited to my
liking and my feeling of security. When I was in high school the Junior
Scholastic Magazine was telling us that by the time I was older, which
happened a long time ago, we would have nuclear powered cars with 2000 miles
of range but they are still not here.
By the way Jack, if racing EVs is a rich man's hobby I would sure like to
know who these rich folks are. I do know pretty much every top electric
racer in the world personally. I do know that several of them have decent
blue collar jobs that probably pull in as much as the guy that picks up my
garbage. Right now I can only think of one or two that might have what one
would consider to be a very good income. I do not know a single EV racer
that is rich. If they were they would buy the batteries that are available
right now if your pockets are deep enough. Since only one person that I know
is using these batteries, and they got them sponsored, I would have to
assume your statement to be false. I am not calling you a liar. I am just
saying you do not know what the hell you are talking about.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
oh please, racing is always about the money and the ego, it is neccessary
but not sufficient to have both to win.
The exceptions just prove the rule.
I wondered early on the list "are EV's just a rich man's hobby?"
Well racing them certainly is.
That EV's can go fast (for a short time) was never in doubt, ask any R/C
racer.
But let's get a reality check, how many times have I read on the list
telling people to coast to stops in their ev's, but try not to piss off
too many people doing it, going 55 when everyone else is going 70, take
off the EV sticker on the car so you don't get EVs a bad rep for being
slow, etc, etc.
If you want to change perceptions, build EVs that actually solve the real
world problems of range, maintaince, charging, conversion cost and effort,
etc, etc.
jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Chris, I'm going to have to side with GW and Jim on this one. I also
noticed that you didn't mention my Mazda which was doing 11 flat 8 years
ago and blowing the doors off the quickest production car in the world at
the time. Even the 2000 Dodge Viper Hennessy Venom with it's 800
horsepower and price tag of over a quarter of a million dollars could
only beat it by 3/10th of a second. But hey this was all a very long time
ago and so old school. Chris. I think you need to spend more time at the
track and find out just how much money these gas racers really dump into
their cars. I built my car in my yard because my shop at the time was an
8 by 10 foot shed and would only hold my tool boxes and my compressor.
You can talk to Rudman and Damon from Alltrax about that. They were there
and helped work on the car as well as a good friend who flew in from New
Zealand, Justin Southam, just to help out. Yes I was able to get
sponsored batteries and I did borrow several controllers. You just do
what you can to get by. It isn't about the money at all. It is about
trying new ideas, about innovations. These cars that are out there
changing perceptions are not the big buck race cars you imagine. In fact
that is exactly what the whole point is, to change peoples perceptions on
electric cars. When the sport eventually gets popular you will see the
big bucks people come in and the times will drop by incredible amounts.
We aren't waiting for the batteries any more. We are just waiting until
we can afford them :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Husted"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Hey Chris, all
I think EVeryone would have to concede that the best
EV out there can't take down the best gasser (yet)lol.
I tend to side with GW on this one though. More often
than not WZ wins it's runs against average track
racers. Add to that the fact of when WZ ran it's
first bracket race, the other racers were telling Tim
he was in the wrong lane because he was in the big dog
lane. Zombie was the slowest big dog but big enough
bite, hehe.
Maybe you weren't there when Tim made a little boy cry
when Tim ate up the boys uncle in a mach1 (plasma boy
can confirm this)just smoked him. Another time that
sticks out for me was at the truck stop after the
Hooter girl show and shine 8^o. One of the guys had a
low 11 sec car, but he walked away from Tim's ride
with utter respect. I also believe that for
KillaCycle to attend an "all Harley" race and run with
the boys at least proves EV's can run with the pack
(no pun intended).
As far as costs go I'm sure that their are ICE racers
throwing equal bucks on their machines. Waylands got
a lot of things sponsored but John's a good stewert of
that sponsorship, well except for that sex scandal,
drug bust, petty B&E, anyway bad example, lets take
Bill. Even with his A123's I bet he's in ballpark of
what others are spending. If nothing else looking at
my new HotRod magazine I see a really good write up on
Bills bike 8^)
I'm actually new to the whole race thing really, but
ol Wayland's got me hooked. I think Wayland said it
best after Ted West's run... "Ted West just ran a 12.3
at 103 MPH in a battey powered car, Take that gasoline
people"! I have it on tape 8^) I will admit I may be
a little bias on my oppinion 8^)
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
> The day the majority of hotrodders realize an
electric vehicle can kick
> their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will
start to really take
> off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first
time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was
new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level
of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the
excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not
go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if
not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult
to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John
Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current
Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not
to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The charger itself is not temperature compensated. It needs to be manually
turned up in the winter.
MAKE SURE YOU TURN IT BACK DOWN IN THE SPRING.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: PFC 20 thermal compensation
> I think I asked this before but couldn't put my hands on the answer.
>
> What do I need to do, or do I do nothing, to the charger settings for
> winter?
>
> Are the regs thermally compensated? I heard that in the winter we are
> suppose to turn up the charging voltage, but that was always mentioned
> in regards to floodies.
>
>
> setup: 24 orbitals with regs on PFC20.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really liked Neon's posts. They were enlightening and information rich. So are some
posts from mr. Madman. A person should be allowed to state his/her opinion if on topic,
especially if backed up by experience or hard data. A bit more "personal"
approach makes the reading much more enjoyable. Well, that is from a lurker's point of
view.
-Janez
And, it had been refreshing not to hear about Nazis all the time since
Neon John dropped out of sight.
If we could all refrain from name-calling, it would reduce the noise on
this loop.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Updated mileage standards will also effect regular ICE vehicles negatively.
This is important especially if Congress increases the penalty for
non-compliance and melds vehicles in the light-truck category (pickups and
SUV's typically) with regular vehicles. This may provide new incentives for
manufacturers to become serious about PHEV's and pure EV's. It's already
caused some of them to create systems that can work with ethanol (even though
that strategy may be questionable). Vehicles certified for use with E85 only
"count" 15% of their consumption towards CAFE standards which increases the
manufacturers' rating and reduces potential penalties.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Everyone,
I was wondering, has anyone ever put a full size netgain 9" into
a Geo Metro? I know an Impulse will fit but if I was willing to alter
the framerail on that side would the 9" regular motor fit?
Jody
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow. I'm surely sorry that that happened to you. I'd be upset too.
It turns out I misheard my battery vendor. (Tri-state Battery) They quoted
me $89.00/ea. for T-875 equivalents of a US Battery, but they recommended a
Deka equivalent marketed under the name Astro-lite at $82.00/ea. They
assured me that it was the same discharge rates and estimated life cycles.
Now I'm a little concerned so I'm going to call them this morning and ask
what type of charge the manufacturer recommends. These are brand-new
batteries and I don't want to bake them.
I did give them their first charge and a short, gentle test drive last
night. I think the Beetle makes a fine conversion. It seats 4, it's semi
comfortable and utterly silent. No bearing noise, no transmission whine or
suspension squeak. Nothing but the tires on the pavement. Even with the
Curtis, I was pleased with the performance. It's a far cry from my 72v EV
that I sold.
Now if I can just make sure I treat my batteries right....
Rich A.
<snip>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:30:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Of USBattery and Trojans
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Numerous folks have inquired about the difference
between USB and Trojan batteries I referenced in
my recent EV Bashing posts, so I dug out the original
email exchange between Nawaz Qureshi and myself
to find out the specifics. I have trimmed the post
to the essential details: <snip>
_________________________________________________________________
Refi Now: Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo - Calculate
new payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-17727&moid=7581
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to agree with GW. It's all about what you are accustomed to. In the
rest of the world lane splitting is a common occurrence. Take the
peripherique in Paris for example. In Paris as in many other European
cities, a huge number of people (I don't know the percentage but is high)
ride scooters and bikes. Scooters ride in between the lanes of cars. It's an
everyday thing. No one gets startled, no one except maybe a startled
American tourist yells at them or honks their horn. In fact there are as
many scooters as cars, so it's probably futile anyway - akin to a herd of
Antelope running along a herd of Buffalo. They run together without flipping
each other off. Sure the occasional antelope turn into mush, but in general
they coexist. Why cant we? Answer: Because we in America have personal space
issues. We have expectations that people will "give us our space", whether
it be in a car or walking in the mall. When we don't get it, we get
agitated. Motorcycles and smaller vehicles fill the space because they have
can. Drive safer, the roads are only going to get fuller.
Mike Harvey
Harvey Coachworks and EV
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
I object to lane splitting because
1. It puts me at risk of an accident or it puts my car at risk of being
damaged and the motorcyclist may drive on or blame me. Someone else
doesnot have the right to you me in such danger or circumstance anymore
than I have the right to make you stand on the edge of a buildings roof.
2. It is a result of someone who feels they can jump the line.
Impatience, rudeness, superiority, uncivilized behavior, flauting the law,
being an $#%hole call it what you will but lane splitting is all about the
motorcyclists putting his desires ahead of others.
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 9:14 pm, john fisher wrote:
Me too. My wife hates it from the car's POV, I used to do it all the
time. Car drivers also don't realize the level of contempt that
motorcyclists have for their driving skills. That said, the current
craze for stunting is giving everybody on two wheels a bad name. ditto
loud pipes. I do think the use of sportbikes' amazing acceleration
regularly startles drivers. Riders should be careful, riding among cars
is already like bicycling in a buffalo herd, its not wise to stampede
them.
John Fisher
Steve Condie wrote:
The emotional response people have to lane splitting interests me. My
wife feels the same way, and I struggle to understand why. I think it's
a response to being startled. Ironically, if lane splitting were more
common don't think it would arouse the kinds of negative responses it
does now, because people wouldn't be surprised by having a motorcycle
slip by, whereas now it's a combination of a fast, noisy object suddenly
appearing where you don't expect it - and a certain amount of jealousy
caused by the fact that you're stuck there in traffic and they're not.
Seriously - lane splitting isn't going to cause the downfall of Life As
We Know It.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
What kind of "regs" do you have? Rudman Regs or something else? If
you have Rudman Regs, do they have a RegBus, and if so, is it in use
and connected to the charger? Are the regs installed directly on the
battery they control, or are they remote mounted?
If you have Rudman Regulators with the RegBus, and you have the RegBus
connected, and the regs are installed on the individual batteries,
and you have the charger setup to start tapering with RegBus activity,
you can set the charger to the higher 'winter' voltage setting and
let the regs run the show. The regs are temperature compenstated,
so they will start 'regulating' and tell the charger to back off as
each battery comes up to voltage for their present temperature. This
assumes that the regulation voltage setpoint is adjusted correctly at
temperature.
Ralph
Jeff Shanab writes:
>
> I think I asked this before but couldn't put my hands on the answer.
>
> What do I need to do, or do I do nothing, to the charger settings for
> winter?
>
> Are the regs thermally compensated? I heard that in the winter we are
> suppose to turn up the charging voltage, but that was always mentioned
> in regards to floodies.
>
>
> setup: 24 orbitals with regs on PFC20.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, let me get this straight: an EV can't possibly beat a comparable ICE, but,
hey! keep up the excitement anyway!
Comparable... Doing a bit of research I find that the first auto race in the
United States took place in Chicago on November 28, 1895.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_racing#The_beginning_of_race_cars). ICE
racing has been in development for over a century. The EV racing pioneers like
John Wayland and Roderick Wilde, has been at it for less than 20 years. Do you
suppose any of the ICE racers were in the 11's 20 years into their early
development?
John's re-engineering of the Zombie is not a negative point. He is part of the
development. ICE's are easier because they have been in development for so
long you can just go down to the local speed shop and buy your high performance
parts off the shelf. The performance parts in the Zombie had to be hand built
by individuals like Otmar Ebenhoech and Jim Husted. There are no "Big" OEM's
like Edelbrock, Trick Flow, or Wieand for EV's. So, that, along with the brick
wall of negative public momentum I'd say that EV's are doing quite well against
ICE's.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
GWMobile wrote:
> The day the majority of hotrodders realize an electric vehicle can kick
> their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will start to really take
> off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
John has poured his heart and soul into the Zombie and it shows. I
have no doubt he will hit 11's this year. But step back a minute.
How much re-engineering of that car has he done? How can you really
compare it to an ICE drag car? Imagine John had *not* been an EVer,
and instead simply dropped a crate V-6 into his little Datsun years
ago. Isn't his current EV a bit more elaborate than a typical engine
swap? What if he then spent all that time developing a V-6 Zombie -
what would he be running now? Low 10's? High 9's? And probably for
far less money.
The performance differential gets even more stunning with motorcycles.
For quite a while Bill's Killacycle, the meanest, baddest, full-gonzo
electric motorcycle on the planet, was running 9.8 at 150 mph. About
the same as a bone stock Suzuki GSXR 1000 (9.77 at 148.7 per
Motorcyclist magazine).
If you really want to showcase the difference between EV and ICE, you
need to put them on an even playing field. So let's tweak the
road-racing-oriented Suzuki a bit for the drag strip. We'll give it a
solid rear frame wrapped around a huge wrinkle-wall slick, lower it a
few inches, add some wheelie bars and optimize the gearing, just like
the Killacycle. Now you're crowding (or beating) Bill's new record of
8.76.
Notice we haven't changed the engine at all. It still has its smooth
idle, whisper quiet exhaust, original air box, stock cam timing and
fuel injection map. Once you get into engine mods you can pull *way*
over 200 hp out of a GSXR. That's not a typo. (Stock, it makes 160
hp.) Do the math.
The point is that head-to-head comparisons with ICE vehicles is not
the point. By all means be enthusiastic about the future of EVs.
Support the racers that do so much to advance the breed, because
they're doing a fabulous job. Do not get carried away. There have
been too many disappointments, over-hyped claims and broken promises
about EVs in the past.
Things really *are* looking up these days. We don't need to inflate
our abilities anymore. Maybe we can't beat the ICEs heads up, but
this is a type of racing that is in its infancy. The message is the
incredible progress we're making. And that viability on the track
means viability on the road.
Chris
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody,
You don't say what model year your Metro is, but when I asked this
same question on the list a couple of years ago concerning a 1992 Geo
Metro, I received the following response:
If you can find an '89-'94 Suzuki Swift in a junkyard that has the 4
cylinder engine (SOHC or DOHC), you could get the motor & tranny mounts
and the halfshafts from that, and using them would be a "bolt in"
solution that would shift the tranny a couple of inches(?) towards the
left side of the car. I'm not positive it would give enough room for an
ADC 9" (it might), but it certainly would give enough room for an 8" in
a '92 Metro without right fender well mods.
An added benefit would be that I think the halfshafts on the 4 cylinder
cars are beefier than those on the 3-cyl cars. (The end splines are the
same though, so fit to the tranny and hubs is not an issue.)
cheers,
Bill Dennis
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
Hello Everyone,
I was wondering, has anyone ever put a full size netgain 9" into
a Geo Metro? I know an Impulse will fit but if I was willing to alter
the framerail on that side would the 9" regular motor fit?
Jody
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mine is a 96. It looks like the only problem would be the framerail on
the passenger side. It would be pretty easy to make a new framerail
that would go above the motor. I am just wondering if anyone has done
it.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:09
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Geo
Jody,
You don't say what model year your Metro is, but when I asked this
same question on the list a couple of years ago concerning a 1992 Geo
Metro, I received the following response:
If you can find an '89-'94 Suzuki Swift in a junkyard that has the 4
cylinder engine (SOHC or DOHC), you could get the motor & tranny mounts
and the halfshafts from that, and using them would be a "bolt in"
solution that would shift the tranny a couple of inches(?) towards the
left side of the car. I'm not positive it would give enough room for an
ADC 9" (it might), but it certainly would give enough room for an 8" in
a '92 Metro without right fender well mods.
An added benefit would be that I think the halfshafts on the 4 cylinder
cars are beefier than those on the 3-cyl cars. (The end splines are the
same though, so fit to the tranny and hubs is not an issue.) cheers,
Bill Dennis
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I was wondering, has anyone ever put a full size netgain 9" into
a
> Geo Metro? I know an Impulse will fit but if I was willing to alter
> the framerail on that side would the 9" regular motor fit?
>
>
> Jody
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI, there is a least one EVer on Long Island. A rather exuberant young
man has taken the bold step to own an S-10 EV as his *only* vehicle. He
is also working to get public charging added near his work. He is not an
amp-head so doesn't hang out on this list. He just wants the truck to
work and get him where he needs to go.
There is also a Ford dealership on Long Island that is set up to service
the Ranger EV's, so I assume there are/were Ranger EV's around there.
Bob Rice wrote on 2/2/07:
Well, Hawai is a small island, where are the EV's?
Bermuda? The Little Kennedy Held islands off Mass?Nantucket? NY's Long
Island? A tad bigger but nice an' flat!Say "Hi" you Wrong Island guyz!
Tryin' to "out" ya!
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
You gotta admit, Jack's entertaining!
Jack Murray wrote:
I wondered early on the list "are EV's just a rich man's hobby?"
Well racing them certainly is.
Wow, I woke up this morning and found out I was a rich guy! Hmmm...just
wrote another check to Portland State university for my daughter's last
term....hmmmm...scraped up enough cash to pay for T-shirts...hmmm...just
finished paying for metal shop materials, lugs and
connectors....hmmm....had enough to take my wife out for two-for-Tuesday
El Indio Mexican food ($11.95 for two entrees) last night, and I 'think'
I've got enough left over for a burger or two until my next
paycheck...yup, I'm rich!
oh please, racing is always about the money and the ego....
I just drained my 'EV play' account down and I let another guy drive my
car while I watch from the stands....yeah Jack, you're right, it's all
about money and ego.
See Ya......John 'rich guy' Wayland
PS: Without sponsorship of any kind, anyone could reproduce White Zombie
for about $18,000 and go out and kick $75,000 production car
butt....just ask Car and Driver (and all those muscle car guys and
import tuners that have poured $25,000+ into their machines, only to get
blown away by a battery powered 35 year old electric Datsun).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, now that you understand what I'm aiming for, I'll try to explain
what I meant by the question you referenced, below. Let's say I take
1/8-thick aluminum or copper bar and cut two 1-inch squares out of it.
I attach one square, via a wire, to the cell terminal. I attach the
other square to the regulator. Now I press the two squares together
and hold them firmly to each other with a spring, sort of like a
home-made mechanical contactor. Would that work as well as banana jacks
or fuse clips? It would certainly be easy to pull 42 of them
apart--just release the spring and lift all 42 away.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
Bill Dennis wrote:
Would two pieces of 1-inch square aluminum work if they were held tightly
together, or is there a better alternative?
Lee Hart wrote:
I don't understand what this is for.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Search the archives for the subjects: "Motor too Long" and "Motor Way
too Long" from July 2004 for the threads on this. People were advising
against altering the frame.
Bill Dennis
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
Mine is a 96. It looks like the only problem would be the framerail on
the passenger side. It would be pretty easy to make a new framerail
that would go above the motor. I am just wondering if anyone has done
it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Put up some new pictures on the KillaCycle web site. (It is super
easy to do, thanks to the great job Dave Stensland did building the web site!)
Here are some showing how we assemble to battery pack modules. (There
will be more as we progress on the new pack.)
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/battery-assembly-110s-x-9p/
I also dropped in a few more showing the motors going into the bike.
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/motor-details/
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While the actual numbers indicated for real-world driving are becoming
more accurate, the relative values of those numbers have always been
helpful. You know that the car rated for 40mpg got better milage than
the one rated for 30, and you could compare.
Now, comparisons between pre-2008 and 2008+ numbers will have less
meaning, but this isn't that much of an issue if you're only comparing
new cars.
bruce parmenter wrote:
EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?page=article&Article_ID=14232
Daily Policy Digest Environment Issues February 23, 2007
CAR M.P.G. RATINGS GOING DOWN
Fuel-saving gasoline-electric hybrid cars don't save as much fuel
as thought, according to new government fuel-economy ratings
available to the public for the first time.
(snip)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is true. The ability to manipulate the shape of your bike is key to
sharing lanes safely. Leaning and turning the handlebars are tricks of the
trade. The Tango is a rigid shape and the wheelbase makes it less
maneuverable. Basing the ability for an EV to laneshare on it's width alone
is a misleading selling point. I have no information confirming this but I
doubt the maker of the Tango has ever laneshared.
Even though I had my Aerostich suit on last night, being inside a cabin
would have been nice. It hailed for half my commute. It is the price you pay
to cut a 75 minute commute in your car to 30 minutes on the bike.
Again sorry for shaking up the hive on this topic in my previous post. It
was supposed to only go to GW. I agree that we sould keep this about Tango
and not lanesharing in general.. Does anybody know if George Clooney drives
his?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
Lane splitting is specifically (by name) allowed in California, as per the
DMV website: http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html
The CA motorcycle operators handbook also mentions this.
I have several thousands of miles of motorcycling experience in
California, and I've split lanes with CHP and municipal police either
directly in front of or behind me; they were also splitting the lane. By
splitting, I mean having your tires ON the line.
Also, the link you post mentions the legality of lane splitting in
California.
In any case, lane splitting isn't recommended on medium to large bikes;
the mirrors stick out too far. I wouldn't try it with a Tango, as I
couldn't twitch my handlebars or lean the bike (w/o turning) to miss
someone's mirror.
James Allgood wrote:
Lane splitting is illegal in all 50 states, so Tango cannot "split"
lanes, ie. straddle the lane boundry, anywhere in the US, just like
motorcycles. You will be cited for unsafe lane change or straddling if
the cop can catch you. It should be able to lane share, but only if it
stays within one lane, and only changes lanes every 100ft, just like a
motorcycle. For more than 7 years, every day, rain or shine, I split and
share lanes and can tell you with two wheels I can stay legal about
80-90% of the time. With 4 wheels it would be nearly impossible not to
straddle. Motorcycles are allowed to drive abreast in 42 states, but only
California has no law prohibiting motorcycles to share a lane with a car.
I am a big proponent of lanesharing and the positive effect on reducing
congestion, but from what I have seen of the width I would not share
lanes in the Tango. But I would love to watch one try. Just keep an eye
on your six and let faster splitters go by.
Take a look what motorcyclist have to say about this very topic:
http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186134
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
Here's an update on my battery woes!
A friend who happens to import Elcats into the UK offered to take the
batteries and did a 40A charge/discharge test on them. Of the three
batteries he took he didn't bother to test the worst one and instead
tested the second best battery. For a 40A discharge test he found
the battery to work out to 7AH. Brand new last August (06) the
batteries were rated at 90AH at the 20 hour rate and 75AH at the 5
hour rate.
The best battery of the pack was okay - testing out at about 45Ah.
So - with two batteries dead no wonder my range was awful. I've
since replaced them with second hand Elecsols Carbon Fiber wets (40A
discharge rates them at 55AH). I've noticed that although my
acceleration with these is slower than I was getting with the Varta
that I am certainly getting better range and less dramatic voltage
drops! After about 10 miles I'm still reading a pack voltage (with
the 6v 55AH in too) of about 44.5 volts - which is much better than
the old pack!
In fact, I'm now considering buying some elecsols brand new for use
in my city el and building/buying a fast charger rather than doing
the whole lithium ion thing.
Nikki
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On Feb 19, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Hi Nikki,
Your batteries are starting to drift apart, which will cause the
"lowest" to
be empty before the others are, while during charging the "fullest"
ones are
going up in voltage like crazy (I have seen up to 16V on a large
110Ah AGM
that was overcharged with only 10A) and the consequence is that
even while
the charger will see the pack hit max voltage and shut off, the lowest
battery may be only 50% charged, so halfway your normal range you can
suddenly have an empty battery in the pack and reverse it, dropping
you to a
walking speed and a hurt battery, so to speak.
My AGMs sit at a resting voltage between 12.1V (dead) and 13.2V
(full), so I
distrust the 12.7V while the 12.9V one is not entirely full either.
Batteries that are well balanced should stay within 0.1 or even 0.05V.
To make sure all batteries are OK, you load them and check the
voltage after
several seconds of heavy load.
This avoids a weak cell from giving 2V so the open circuit looks
fine, but
when driving it immediately collapses.
I have seen several batteries that go from 12V to 10V or even 8V
real fast,
they had one or two bad cells which had been reversed and as soon
as they
were discharged the positive plate became a negative plate, so the
cell was
delivering 0V (and in use it would get hot, probably because the
original
negative plate was also reversed into a positive plate, so it
became an
energy dissipator at -2V or more.
Easiest thing to do is to charge each battery separately so they
all read
13.2V or thereabouts.
Check that each battery takes it charge current from the get-go.
If you hook up your charger and see the current slowly rise, then
you can be
certain you have a bad cell in that battery, which is high
resistant at low
voltage (and will pass current only after it has charged or
discharged a
little)
Hope this helps,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of nikki
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Battery Woes
Hi everyone.
Last Thursday my City El suddenly let me down. The start of last
week I
managed to squeeze 20 miles out of the batteries (Varta Semi
Tractions 12v
75AH C5) on both Monday and Tuesday but by Thursday the car let me
down at 8
miles.
I initially thought it was a brake failure and the front wheel was
sticking
as it was a bit on the hot side but decided to check the vehicle over
anyway. Today being half term for the schools I have a lighter
load so took
the morning off to check out the city el. There was a loose nut on
the
Curtis which has now been tightened and the car was fully charged.
I did
notice a slight descrepancy between the 12v batteries (12.9, 13.1
and 12.7)
Now I've got a suitably large socket wrench I can take the wheels
off and
check the drums but to be honest the car has only done 1,700 miles
so I
really doubt a problem there.
I suspect the problem is the batteries themselves. I want to go to
Lithium
Ion in the summer so want a set to keep me going until then.
Suggestions?
Thanks
Nikki.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2/28/07, nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So - with two batteries dead no wonder my range was awful. I've
since replaced them with second hand Elecsols Carbon Fiber wets (40A
discharge rates them at 55AH). I've noticed that although my
acceleration with these is slower than I was getting with the Varta
that I am certainly getting better range and less dramatic voltage
drops! After about 10 miles I'm still reading a pack voltage (with
the 6v 55AH in too) of about 44.5 volts - which is much better than
the old pack!
In fact, I'm now considering buying some elecsols brand new for use
in my city el and building/buying a fast charger
Did you get your charger fixed? Elecsols respond rather badly to
overcharging in my experience :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> wow, you really must excuse me for saying, but for all the negatives I
> hear about the NiMH battery solution I'm working on, if replacing an
> entire lead pack is the answer to having some batteries go bad after a
> while,
> the "cheap" lead acid pack initial cost is really not cheap at all.
It depends on how long a "while" is. I haven't been following this
thread, but if a "while" is a month or two, then you got some bad
batteries and replacing them is ok. The life span of the new batteries
will be reduced slightly, but will usualy last as long as the rest of the
pack (i.e. you effectively loose a couple months life on the new batts)
If a "while" is a year or so, then the pack is getting old and replacing
individual batteries is not a good idea. The bad batteries
possibly/probably went bad from incorrect charging/discharging. This is a
common problem with new EV owners, i.e. "everybody" murders their first
pack.
> The large-number-of-small-cells that are paralleled and can be replaced
> in relatively small units looks even better.
> Jack
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
>> Jeff,
>>
>> Adding new batteries to an aging pack will only work if you are also
>> adding
>> regulators, otherwise you are setting the whole pack up to get out of
>> balance again real soon.
>> Do you have zener regs on them already? That is the minimum required to
>> survive different aged batteries and keep them together.
>>
>> BUT - only add new batts if you have tested the remaining batteries to
>> have
>> good capacity, otherwise you better buy an entire new pack.
>>
>> Success,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Systems Architect
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:47 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
>>
>> Here is the scenario. When thanksgiving arrived and it turned cold my
>> range
>> dropped dramatically. Couldn't even make it to work and back.
>> (about 5kwh)
>>
>> 24orbitals at 34ah 1hr rate * .8 should be 7.8kwh so I am useing 50% per
>> day.
>>
>> I though it was just the cold, but as I did some testing 4 batteries
>> didn't
>> look so good and 2 were obvious. So I bought a new battery and swapped
>> the
>> other with the aux battery as it was the same type, newer and has seen
>> very
>> light duty. This was an improvement but yesterday and today I commuted
>> to
>> work.
>>
>> I am checking these voltages immediately after the commute.
>>
>> The new battery, which I am useing as a capacity guage was 12.3V
>> both
>> days.
>> The old Aux battery and all the others except #8 and #9 were 12.1+/-
>> .1V
>>
>> #8 and #9 are at 11.1 and 11.2 :-(
>>
>> I am interpreting this as most my batteries are in the 40-50% SOC range
>> (since this is an off-throttle voltage and will rise a little if i
>> waited) I
>> am interpreting #8 and #9 to be at 0%!
>>
>> The goal is just to commute the 14ish miles a day.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
