EV Digest 6540
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Toyo 800 Ultra (was: RE: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Voltmeter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Precharge alternatives
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Steve Powers' NiMH in parallel with Lead Acid
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Texas unveiling of the Phoenix Motor Cars SUT...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Reva is the highest selling electric car in the world
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: I have been running experiments with high cap NiMH in parallel with
AGM Lead Acid
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Voltmeter
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Reva is the highest selling electric car in the world
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: BugE again
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: A run in with Wayland
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: FWD friction
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Reva is the highest selling electric car in the world
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) 1980's build your own ev?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Phoenix Motor Cars SUT...
by Gil Dawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Tesla motors article
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Precharge alternatives
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
"Tire-wise, I like the Toyo 800 Ultra, and it is available in all 3 sizes
you list (165/80R13, 175/70R14, and 185/65R14). They worked well on my
'97 Escort wagon and delivered good fuel economy, but I haven't run any
on an EV yet so I can't offer any quantitative rolling resistance
numbers."
I agree with Roger on this, but with a caveat. I still have them on a
'98 Honda ICE. I believe they come by their low rolling resistance by
having extremely flexible sidewalls. They flex as much as other
tires, but use up much less energy in doing so. It's very apparent in
their substantially reduced harshness compared to the OEM Michelins
they replaced.
Based on my experience so far, I quite literally believe I will never
wear them out. They do have extremely good wear characteristics, but
that's not the reason. It's because the sidewalls are so thin they
are very susceptible to road hazards. So far the set of four I
started out with includes four additional replacements.
Chris
P.S. Oh yeah, the last time I had one replaced, I was told the 800
Ultra is being discontinued.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> you want to keep the full battery pack voltage out of the passenger
> cabin for safety reasons. How do you have a voltmeter on the
> dashboard then?
Let's not get too carried away with this. A normal analog meter only draws 1
milliamp full scale or less (at 1 volt or less). You have to high-value
resistors in series with it anyway to read pack voltage. Split the required
resistance in half, and put one in the + and - wires at the ends where they
connect to the battery pack. You can't get enough current through these
resistors to hurt you even on wet skin.
For example, I have a nice big analog Crompton commercial 0-200vdc meter, 5.75"
square. Inside is a 1ma 173 ohm movement, and two resistors in series; 149k and
50.4k. (PS: if anyone would like to buy it, email me directly).
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Tony Hwang
> Could one make a precharge circuit... by wiring a small relay
> that comes on when the switched 12V comes on (when user turns
> the key)... whose contacts connect the precharge resistor...
> and an RC network with say, a 2 second delay or so, that turns
> on the main contactor?
Yes, that would work.
> The smaller relay would have to... be able to handle the full
> traction pack voltage.
Its contacts do; but that's not too hard. Get a proper UL listed relay (not an
automotive relay) that has 2-4 poles and 120vac or 240vac contacts. Assume each
contact is good for 1/4th its AC rating (so a 120vac contact is good for 30vdc
-- that's a safe bet). Example: If you have a 120vdc pack, use two 240vac
contacts in series.
> Though the smaller relay would constantly be drawing power when
> the car is on, though, even after the main contacter closes.
Yes, but you're talking about a tiny load. The coil of a DPDT relay with two
240vac 5amp contacts only draws about 50ma at 12v.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers said:
"We started with a single 12 V group 24 AGM and 2 x 10 parallel strings of
NIMH F cells (12 V / 26 AH total for the NIMH). On discharge, it seems to
work just fine...Charging is a whole different story. I thought we would be
OK just putting the 10 NIMH cells in parallel with the AGM and charging it
off my 12 V, 2/6/12 A Walmart smart charger."
Mick says: The end of charge routine is different for NiMH than for
lead acid AGM. I had been running 22 Ni-MH size F cells rated 13 amp-hours
on my "24V" electric bike...the same type cells that Steve is using. I found
nice battery chargers for a short string like mine in the world of radio
controlled aircraft, of all places.
I bought a Great Planes Triton charger; for Ni-MH it delivers
constant current until the battery voltage drops slightly. The voltage drop
at end of charge occurs because the pack begins to heat up & the internal
resistance reduces. (This same charger will also accept an external temp
sensor so it can know more quickly that the pack is warming up.) Reliance on
that telltale drop in voltage is common in chargers designed for Ni-MH, but
a charger made for lead acid batteries doesn't have the logic to see that
drop in voltage and respond to it.
Charging strings of Ni-MH in parallel has been discussed heatedly on
this list (pun intended). The RC aircraft guys are fine with discharging
ni-MH strings in parallel, but most do not charge them in parallel. I think
the reason is that if one string reaches full charge before the other one
does, the voltage in that string drops but the charger can't detect that
because the other string is still there with higher voltage, so destructive
overcharge energy keeps moving into the string that's already charged. It's
sort of a thermal runaway problem.
BTW, I might like to sell my Triton charger now that I've moved on
to lithium ion batteries for my bike. (The Triton will do lithiums but only
a few cells in series.) Interested parties may contact me off list, but shop
around first so you'll know what it is and what it's worth.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Heidi and I attended the Phoenix Motor Cars SUT (Sport Utility Truck)
unveiling in Farmers Branch Texas (Dallas) last Thursday, March 8, 2007. The
unveiling, very appropriately, took place at the Sam Pack Automotive Museum.
Quite a
range from the past to the future!
They brought two vehicles, one for test-driving and one to be unveiled inside
the museum. KTLA-TV was there to document the event and the news story can
be seen at _http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/_
(http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/) as well as some photos.
It was a very well presented event and everyone was there to eagerly answer
any questions including Daniel Elliot, the CEO of Phoenix Motor Cars.
The test-driving only paused for the unveiling, otherwise it was continuous
from before 5:45 PM till after 9:00 PM. That is, it was going for at least the
duration that Heidi and I was present. Everyone that registered to test
drive got a number to define his or her place in line.
Apart from being so quite, the truck drove much like an average ½ ton pickup
with a big V6 and an automatic transmission. The action is very smooth and
positive. The regen braking is a function of the accelerator petal. Pressing
the petal accelerates the vehicle, just like we are all used to. As you let
off the petal, you decelerate, somewhat like letting off the gas in a regular
ICE vehicle with a manual transmission. The action is sufficient, however,
that
pressing the brake petal is mostly needed only after the vehicle has stopped.
The action between acceleration and deceleration is very smooth. Unless you
make abrupt changes in the petal position, it is hard to tell when it
switches from go to slow. Most everything else on the vehicle is traditional
and
familiar. Even a “gear shift” is included with only three positions; Forward,
Neutral and Reverse. This is a very positive, viable “workhorse” addition to
the EV movement!
What I found to be most fascinating about this unveiling is that it took
place in Texas! Dallas Texas no less! Right here deep in the OIL state!
Things
are truly starting to look up!
Ken
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: James Massey
> Maybe I'm being picky here, but isn't the Reva a quadricycle?
> Essentially a slightly-better-than-a-NEV? Not really a car at all?
The Reva I saw a few years ago was a real car, though just barely. It was
roughly on a par with the 1960's Austin Minis, or the 1970's Honda Civic --
tiny little cars with only the bare essentials, and no frills. Being EVs, I'd
say their performance is better than the old Sebring Vanguard CitiCar or its
successor, the Commuter Vehicles ComutaCar.
I think of a "quadracycle" as a 4-wheeled bicycle or motorcycle; no body,
extremely light and simple.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
We experimented with this concept about 4 or 5 years ago. Using NiCad D
cells with AGMs. Ran discharge tests on various combos. Found 21 cells with
two 12V AGMs worked best. Combo battery was discharged at 300 amps. NiCad
contribution was about 25 amps for first half of test and then rose steadily to
60 amps at end of test. Always charged separately.
It looked like there was merit to this concept, but implementation was too
complex, so we dropped it. Good luck.
Jeff
Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
A couple of friends and I are working on a dual chemistry battery pack for
our EV's. It consists of a string of AGM lead acid (8 x 12 in my case, 12 x 12
in my friend's case) with parallel strings of D or F cell NIMH. By the way, the
idea came from the 1980 book about building your own EV for $1500 (1980
dollars).
We started with a single 12 V group 24 AGM and 2 x 10 parallel strings of NIMH
F cells (12 V / 26 AH total for the NIMH). On discharge, it seems to work just
fine as long as you fuse each of the NIMH strings around 25 A each. It seems
like they are taking about 15 A of the drain each at EV drain rates. That is
good because they are only 13 AH batts.
Charging is a whole different story. I thought we would be OK just putting the
10 NIMH cells in parallel with the AGM and charging it off my 12 V, 2/6/12 A
Walmart smart charger. That charger works just fine on the AGM alone. The
finishing voltage of the AGM is 13.1 V and 13.1 V is also near fully charged
for the 10 NIMH cells in series. But, I tried it and it didn't work at all. I
thought I put a full charge on it, but when I discharged it, I had even less
capacity than just the fully charged AGM alone. So, what happened? Why didn't
it charge properly with both in parallel?
Is it that the charger got confused and thought it was a flooded battery (15 V
fully charged)? It is a smart charger for all 6/12 lead batts, AGM and flooded.
How it knows the difference, I don't know ... Someone please explain if you
know how it works. I don't understand because I measured the voltage of the
combined pack and them individually, and it seemed high enough to be fully
charged. Can I do something to the charger to force it to use the AGM profile
so that it does fully charge the AGM and the NIMH is just along for the ride.
This won't work out too well if I have to have seperate chargers for each of
the 10 packs of NIMH. Suggestions? In total, it looks like 4 x 84 NIMH D 10 AH
D cells fused at 25 A per string in parallel with my 96 V, 8 x 12 pack of AGMs
should work best.
Also, I'm not sure if I have the right combination on NIMH to Lead acid.
10 NIMH for 1 AGM or
21 NIMH for 2 AGM or
11 NIMH for 1 AGM or
12 NIMH for 1 AGM
What about flooded?
12 NIMH for a flooded?
The finishing voltage if the AGM and flooded are very different. Again, I don't
understand why if they are both lead acid. Someone please explain if you can.
Do I need a diode to prevent charge from going back to the NIMH? What type? If
I have that, how can I charge the NIMH? What about polyswitches in the NIMH
pack vs just fusing each string. I like polyswitches because the reset, but
they can take 3-5 x rated current and I don't want the cells to ever see more
than 2C. At least not these cells.
Abnother friend had done the same with 10 AH D cells. He used polyswitches and
a diode. I don't know how he charges them. Also, I'm not sure he is getting
full use out of the NIMH. I haven't seen the system, just talked to him about
it. It seems to work for him, but didn't work for me.
Thanks,
Steve
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing I must add, that I did not do in my first statement, that its best
not to have a standing meter voltages setting on the dash display meters all
the time or even main battery voltage at the main contactor, controller and
motor which you can feed through on the one of the battery lines.
My 12V ignition circuit turns on a 12 volt small glass relay which then
turns on two safety contactors that connect the battery pack to the
controller circuit. The indicator and DC-DC circuits are then tap off after
the safety contactors.
The only power you will have under the dash may be from a 12 battery and a
E-meter that uses pre-scalers to reduce the main battery voltage.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Voltmeter
> > you want to keep the full battery pack voltage out of the passenger
> > cabin for safety reasons. How do you have a voltmeter on the
> > dashboard then?
>
> Let's not get too carried away with this. A normal analog meter only draws
> 1 milliamp full scale or less (at 1 volt or less). You have to high-value
> resistors in series with it anyway to read pack voltage. Split the
> required resistance in half, and put one in the + and - wires at the ends
> where they connect to the battery pack. You can't get enough current
> through these resistors to hurt you even on wet skin.
>
> For example, I have a nice big analog Crompton commercial 0-200vdc meter,
> 5.75" square. Inside is a 1ma 173 ohm movement, and two resistors in
> series; 149k and 50.4k. (PS: if anyone would like to buy it, email me
> directly).
> --
> Lee Hart
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Overall, Reva have sold 1800 cars... more electric cars than
> any manufacturer sold in the US.
This is more EVs than any big *auto* company sold, because the auto companies
*leased* their vehicles. Only a few were sold.
But, there have been dozens of small electric vehicle manufacturers, all the
way from the modern NEVs like the GEM to antique manufacturers of 100 years
ago. I'm sure many of them have sold more than 1800 vehicles. The Sebring
Vanguard CitiCar for one sold a lot more than this!
And, I'm sure they are not considering off-road electric vehicles, of which
huge numbers have been sold.
Why doesn't Reva do what every other advertiser does -- say "the best selling
XYZ *of its type*"... and then define "type" so there are no other candidates.
--
Lee Hart
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey take from a guy doing PHEV kits on these Cars.. I am impressed with the
way they are put together.
And.. I Bit hackers, We would know if somebody hacked the code. We don't.
And we are becoming pretty good at "Feeling" If Mr Toyota is having a bad
day.
We actually read the Brake data bytes...It becomes part of our Regen maps
just like throttle can become one of our "CHARGE NOW" data points.
So we know when the brakes are being called up. I would be fun to read the
data from that crash and see Who got to what pedal....and if it was the
right one.
What is supposed to happen on the Prii is if the Regen braking fails the
main Hydros catch it, and you might loose the ABS but you have Brutal manual
brakes at that point.
The Fail mode is touchy but monsterous brakes. Read NO issue stopping, But
there might be a LOT of locked wheels and rotors.
The Fords have this concept also.. nice soft controlable brakes....until the
computers blink then you have over assisted fail safe huge Vented rotors.
You stop!
I like this idea....'Specially when I am stuffing 400 + lbs of lead into
the trunk of a Prii, and more than that into the E-Scapes.
We gotbrakes.. Code or no code
Madman
PHEV hacker...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Finn John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
> I dunno, I could see this scenario actually happening,
> especially if some bright spark had tried to mess with
> the car's programming at some point. Or, the driver
> could have freaked out and pinned the throttle pedal
> without realizing it, like the elderly fellers in the
> Buick Park Avenues sometimes do prior to plowing them
> through a crowded bus stop. But no standard-issue
> brake system will stop a car from freeway speed with
> the throttle wide open. Disc brakes are great but they
> will fade, and that Prius is a real torque monster
> with both power sources howling. I could be wrong but
> I just don't believe the brake system exists in a
> production car selling for under 75 kiloquid that
> could do that.
>
> I don't think anybody's going to start screeching
> about banning hybrids over this though. These rigs
> have been all over the place since 2004 and haven't
> forged a reputation for killing people yet.
>
> My two cents ... I could be all wet on this ... but I
> do think you're right, the fact that the guy is trying
> to get the dealership to give him a new car makes the
> "guy blew the curve and is now lying" scenario a bit
> more likely. I guess they'll figure it out.
>
> --Finn
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > The BS we hear up here in the area ,is that Exit is
> > prone to having folks
> > try to shoot the light that you can see at the end
> > of the exit ramp, Many
> > folks haul butt trying to beat the light.
> >
> > This guy was still running a pretty good clip when
> > he hit store ... So we
> > think this guy Cooked the exit, lost it and then had
> > a nice ride into store
> > then the Cats lit off the pile of Twinkies that he
> > just ran over.
> >
> > The Brakes of a Prius are a pretty good design. I
> > don't blame the car at
> > all.. something else happened.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
> >
> >
> > > On 3/8/07, Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I own a Prius, you cam't just shut off the ign
> > switch. In order to shut
> > > > it off while it is moving, you have to hit the
> > power button twice,
> > > > because of the computer programming. I learned
> > this just recently, even
> > > > tough I have owned it for a year and a half. A
> > new owner may not be
> > > > aware of this.
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > Richard Acuti wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > What a stupid article. In over 100 years of
> > use, an ICE powered car
> > has
> > > > > never crashed into a building due to a stuck
> > accelerator? The 12v
> > > > > electrical system has never sparked a gasoline
> > fire after an accident?
> > > > >
> > > > > I can see some upset soccer mommy in front of
> > a Congressional
> > committee
> > > > > now: "Hybrids and electric-drive cars are a
> > menace to our highways and
> > > > > must be stopped!"
> > > > >
> > > > > You know, although the article quoted the guy
> > saying he applied the
> > > > > brakes, never once did he say "I shut off the
> > ignition switch". I
> > > > > realize he was taken by surprise and probably
> > only had seconds to act
> > > > > but that probably would have prevented the
> > whole thing. Just as it
> > would
> > > > > for any other ICE vehicle.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rich A.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 10:17:31 -0800
> > > > > From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > > > > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
> > <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > > > Subject: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
> > format=flowed
> > > > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > > > >
> > > > > As always ....The " PRESS" will fly in a
> > helicopter, a crew, cameras,
> > > > > etc. to cover a shooting, a robbery, a Car
> > Accident..
> > > > > any thing negative... But try and get them
> > to cover an Electric Car
> > > > > that CAN, a young person triumphing over some
> > adversity, doing some
> > > > > civic GOOD, building an EV, and the guy will
> > tell ya..
> > > > > "Good News Doesn't sell News Papers"
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, this CRASH is not good news either.
> > > > > KING TV NEWS:
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_030607WABhybridcaraccidentJM.2646476e.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And all this just on the heels of Sherry
> > Boschert's visit to Seattle,
> > > > > ( My EAA counterpart from San Francisco) and
> > her Book Tour for her
> > new
> > > > > book:
> > > > > "Plug-In Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge
> > America"
> > > > >
> > > > > She did pull off a wonderful 1 hour interview
> > on the local PBS station
> > > > > ( KUOW) You can go to their audio archives
> > for 3/6/07...
> > > > > the Weekday Show, and listen to it...
> > > > > (short cut)
> > http://www.kuow.org/defaultProgram.asp?ID=12364
> > > > >
> > > > > But the Media being what the Media IS...
> > Sherry only got to mention
> > the
> > > > > Seattle EV Association once, and on their web
> > site where they list
> > > > > Additional WEB information on the Subject of
> > the interview..
> > > > > no mention of SEVA or any of the PHEV, and
> > EV work we have done
> > > > > over the last 26 years...
> > > > > That hurt a little...
> > > > > But I know any of us involved in Self
> > Promotion of EV's and PHEV's or
> > > > > Alt Fuel in general have run into this...
> > > > >
> > > > > So the Good Fight Goes ON.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost
> > to see yours: $0 by
> > > > > Experian.
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > In ALL Automobiles, ICE or EV or whatever,
> > the brakes *must* be
> > able
> > > to stop the car EVEN while the engine is at FULL
> > power. In Vermont where I
> > > took my first driving test, the instructor first
> > of all checks to see
> > > whether the *emergency* brake (usually 1/2 or less
> > as strong as the
> > service
> > > brake in passenger cars) can hold the car in gear
> > under power.
> > > Those of you who have driven commercial
> > trucks know about the braking
> > > system in those 23000+ pound vehicles. The
> > wheel-chocks are really just
> > for
> > > show.
> > > I sincerely hope that this incident is due
> > to driver error. If that
> > is
> > > not the case then Toyota is SEVERELY REMISS in
> > marketing a car to the
> > public
> > > (regardless of its drive system) that is capable
> > of overpowering its own
> > > service brakes. End Of Story.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What has me sold on the idea is the long term viability of one of these.
Consider the maintenance costs for batteries, tires, brakes, etc. It does
not add up to much after the initial purchase cost.
Unfortunately I don't have the means to build my MR2 EV and build a BugE, so
now I'm giving strong consideration to dumping the MR2. I got it for $300
and could probably easily recoup that by parting it out anyway with no EV
components purchased for it yet. (It's certainly not worth restoring for
ICE use.)
- Kip
-----Original Message-----
From: Darin - at - metrompg.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:33 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: BugE again
I see there are also a few more videos of the machine in action, posted
on the BugE site (and at YouTube):
http://www.blueskydsn.com/BugE_First_Movie.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I have to agree, this isn't very on-topic, but I just can't let this
Redmond renegade get away with telling such a distorted, one-sided tale.
Jim Husted wrote:
Anyway getting on to Johnny boy, he and I try and at
least to hookup and have a little BS session when
we're on each others side of the mountain. He gets all
hurt if I don't EVen though he'll call and say "hey
I'm blowing by your shop, wave", lmao!
For those unfamiliar with Oregon, 'the mountain' is Mt. Hood, our
ski-friendly beautiful 11,000 ft. mountain that is part of the Cascade
Mountain Range. It sits right between the Portland metro area located in
north-western Oregon where it is lush, green, wet, and surrounded by BIG
rivers, and Oregon's high desert central region, where it is arid,
sunny, rugged, and where the towns of Redmond and Bend are located. I
travel up and over the often snow-covered mountain in my work service
truck on my way to and from Bend where I have nine accounts to do
forklift service at. As such, I pass right through Redmond. In addition
to the work I do at my accounts, I also serve as a free freight service
for customers (and EV friends) as I carry heavy electric motors to and
from Jim's Hi-Torque Electric shop.
I knew he'd be rubbing the whole car show in my face...
Well this part is true....what a little mama's boy!
I let him kick me in
the butt for not going to the show. I told him I
know, I'm 45 and can't tell mom no
(said with a whimpering 5 year old's voice) "I couldn't make the show,
because I had to help my mama."
Boyds coffee. I love coffee, and I was thinking that
I'd made a wise choice 8^) Now this place was like
willie wanka in the coffee factory, hehehe. Get a
caffine buzz just walking into a place like this, God
it smelt goood!
I know Jim's love of coffee, and just knew he'd be in hog heaven at this
place...yes, it smells wonderful!
John was going on and on
about what they had to pull it with and whether he
needed to get another mechanic there to help lift it
out. Heck it's only
about 120 lbs and it sits comm end up. He looks at me
all smart and says yeah go ahead! I grabbed the motor and heaved it
sideways to break the silicon seal loose from a 13" DE
plate and lifted it out, about that quick, LMAO!
What Jim is not aware of, is that I had set him up for the motor pull.
While Jim was browsing around the mechanic's shop, I told my customer
how my scrawny friend who looked like the kid that got sand kicked in
his face through grade school, was much stronger than he looked, and how
I'd seen him hoist 250 lb. motors like a 10 lb. bag of coffee. He had
suggested that we get another forklift and strap to get the drive motor
out of its cramped motor bay area, but I simply told him, "No, Jim will
have it out in seconds."
Anyway I guess the point to this story is I've never
seen John actually work, he just runs around coffee
places and drinks coffee and stuffs his donut hole,
it's just not fair.
Jim, Jim, Jim.....where were you the day and night before? It's not all
Miss Oregon, biker chicks, and free doughnuts. Thursday, I had seven
electric pallet jacks and two electric reach trucks as my day's
break-downs at one place. By the end of the day, I was solo, up in the
air, covered in hydraulic fluid and grease, and was installing a 6 ft.
long 85 lb. ram and 50 lb. lift chains back into a Raymond Reach truck
until 7:30 pm. That made it a 12 hour day for me, and I hadn't eaten
anything since 10 am. While I was toiling away, I bet you were at home
with your mama eating warm fresh baked cookies and all.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: David Roden
> If this be true it certainly isn't reflected in their website.
> Under "find your vehicle," they don't even list Geo (or for that
> matter Renault)... These brakes seem to be aimed mostly at the
> "look fast" market.
They have both "look fast" consumer-oriented stuff (like on their website), and
the real "go fast" stuff sold for serious race cars. You have to talk to them
to get the good stuff (which will cost more, unfortunately).
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Mar 2007 at 10:44, Rich Rudman wrote:
> So we know when the brakes are being called up. I would be fun to read the
> data
> from that crash and see Who got to what pedal....and if it was the right one.
This is a good point. The Prius "black box" has crash data, including info
on what pedals were down when the airbags deployed. Since there's legal
action in this case, you can just about bet that the insurance company
involved will have that computer's brain picked.
Regrettably, that won't be for some time, and by then the story will be
cold. You probably won't read in the newspaper or hear on television that
the driver had the accelerator flat to the floor when he thought he was on
the brakes. (If indeed that's what happened, I'm not saying that it is.)
As EV proponents these sorts of news items reflect on us and our vehicles to
some degree. We need to be aware of them and become informed so we can
counter anti-EV arguments.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Mar 2007 at 0:34, Gil Dawson wrote:
> Reva has already sold more electric cars than any manufacturer sold in the US.
They seem to have missed a manufacturer. Sebring-Vanguard sold about 2,600
Citicars between 1974 and 1976. The Comuta-Car, its related successor, sold
thousands of additional units. The exact numbers are a source of some
controversy, but some sources place the total sales for the entire C-car
series at over 7,000.
Reva have quite a way to go to catch up, but if they continue apace in
England they're apt to succeed.
The Reva could be compared rather favorably to the Citicar. IIRC, range and
top speed are similar, though the Reva probably handles and brakes better.
It probably has more creature comforts, too, believe it or not. The C-cars
were just about the crudest cars imaginable. I used to tell people mine was
a golf car on steroids.
Reva was talking about the US, but someone asked about Renault-Peugeot-
Citroen and their European sales. IIRC, by 2001 they had produced over
8,000th EVs. I'm sure the final totals were / are appreciably higher than
that.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
What's the title of the book?
Where can you get a copy?
Thanks
--- Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A couple of friends and I are working on a dual
> chemistry battery pack for our EV's. It consists of
> a string of AGM lead acid (8 x 12 in my case, 12 x
> 12 in my friend's case) with parallel strings of D
> or F cell NIMH. By the way, the idea came from the
> 1980 book about building your own EV for $1500 (1980
> dollars).
>
> We started with a single 12 V group 24 AGM and 2 x
> 10 parallel strings of NIMH F cells (12 V / 26 AH
> total for the NIMH). On discharge, it seems to work
> just fine as long as you fuse each of the NIMH
> strings around 25 A each. It seems like they are
> taking about 15 A of the drain each at EV drain
> rates. That is good because they are only 13 AH
> batts.
>
> Charging is a whole different story. I thought we
> would be OK just putting the 10 NIMH cells in
> parallel with the AGM and charging it off my 12 V,
> 2/6/12 A Walmart smart charger. That charger works
> just fine on the AGM alone. The finishing voltage
> of the AGM is 13.1 V and 13.1 V is also near fully
> charged for the 10 NIMH cells in series. But, I
> tried it and it didn't work at all. I thought I put
> a full charge on it, but when I discharged it, I had
> even less capacity than just the fully charged AGM
> alone. So, what happened? Why didn't it charge
> properly with both in parallel?
>
> Is it that the charger got confused and thought it
> was a flooded battery (15 V fully charged)? It is a
> smart charger for all 6/12 lead batts, AGM and
> flooded. How it knows the difference, I don't know
> ... Someone please explain if you know how it works.
> I don't understand because I measured the voltage
> of the combined pack and them individually, and it
> seemed high enough to be fully charged. Can I do
> something to the charger to force it to use the AGM
> profile so that it does fully charge the AGM and the
> NIMH is just along for the ride. This won't work
> out too well if I have to have seperate chargers for
> each of the 10 packs of NIMH. Suggestions? In
> total, it looks like 4 x 84 NIMH D 10 AH D cells
> fused at 25 A per string in parallel with my 96 V, 8
> x 12 pack of AGMs should work best.
>
> Also, I'm not sure if I have the right combination
> on NIMH to Lead acid.
>
> 10 NIMH for 1 AGM or
> 21 NIMH for 2 AGM or
> 11 NIMH for 1 AGM or
> 12 NIMH for 1 AGM
>
> What about flooded?
>
> 12 NIMH for a flooded?
>
> The finishing voltage if the AGM and flooded are
> very different. Again, I don't understand why if
> they are both lead acid. Someone please explain if
> you can.
>
> Do I need a diode to prevent charge from going
> back to the NIMH? What type? If I have that, how
> can I charge the NIMH? What about polyswitches in
> the NIMH pack vs just fusing each string. I like
> polyswitches because the reset, but they can take
> 3-5 x rated current and I don't want the cells to
> ever see more than 2C. At least not these cells.
>
> Abnother friend had done the same with 10 AH D
> cells. He used polyswitches and a diode. I don't
> know how he charges them. Also, I'm not sure he is
> getting full use out of the NIMH. I haven't seen
> the system, just talked to him about it. It seems
> to work for him, but didn't work for me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:36 P -0500 3/10/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Unless you make abrupt changes in the petal position, it is hard to
tell when it switches from go to slow.
This auto regen when you take your foot off the pedal simulates a gas
car, which is good for traffic. In the EV1, we had a button to turn
it off, and we learned to use it for efficiency when traffic
permitted.
Moving energy from the wheels to the battery and later back out again
wastes a little energy in the conversion process in each direction.
If the stop light is far away and you just want to slow down
gradually, it takes less energy overall to let the car slow via its
natural air and rolling resistances, than to stuff energy back into
the battery and then get it back out later.
You can achieve the same effect by "feathering" the pedal but,
without instrumentation, you're never sure you got it right, and it
tires your ankle. A button is nice.
In the S-10E we have no button, so I use the shift lever, shifting
into neutral when I want natural slowing.
--Gil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You haven't been listening to John Wayland, for one!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
> On 8 Mar 2007 at 5:59, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > I've always been amused when people get upset at the "Curtis whine".
> > Some long-term EVer's get downright indignant when they hear a Curtis.
> >
>
> Curiously, despite the huge number (compared to BEVs) in service, I've
never
> heard anyone complain about the slight audible whine the Prius makes.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/717 - Release Date: 3/10/2007
2:25 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw a small blurb in the calgary herald today about how tesla motors is
going to start mass producing is sedan electric car model. The title of the
article seemed like it was critisizing how tesla is going to start selling
the next model before it builds the first. But then the article turned out
for the better. Aparently GM and Ford stated that 'electric drive is the way
to go'. Ya sure... anyway the sedan starts at $50,000
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
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--- Begin Message ---
Could you use a latching relay to avoid that tiny current draw while the car
is on?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Precharge alternatives
> From: Tony Hwang
> > Could one make a precharge circuit... by wiring a small relay
> > that comes on when the switched 12V comes on (when user turns
> > the key)... whose contacts connect the precharge resistor...
> > and an RC network with say, a 2 second delay or so, that turns
> > on the main contactor?
>
> Yes, that would work.
>
> > The smaller relay would have to... be able to handle the full
> > traction pack voltage.
>
> Its contacts do; but that's not too hard. Get a proper UL listed relay
(not an automotive relay) that has 2-4 poles and 120vac or 240vac contacts.
Assume each contact is good for 1/4th its AC rating (so a 120vac contact is
good for 30vdc -- that's a safe bet). Example: If you have a 120vdc pack,
use two 240vac contacts in series.
>
> > Though the smaller relay would constantly be drawing power when
> > the car is on, though, even after the main contacter closes.
>
> Yes, but you're talking about a tiny load. The coil of a DPDT relay with
two 240vac 5amp contacts only draws about 50ma at 12v.
> --
> Lee Hart
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Mar 2007 at 14:52, Joseph H. Strubhar wrote:
> You haven't been listening to John Wayland, for one!
Do we really need to? The Prius and Curtis make enough of a whine already.
Just kidding! ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know some people find the 'whine' obnoxious, but
when I drove the Dodge TEVan I always thought the
squeal was kind of cool, in fact the neighbors called
us the Jetsons. The squeal was loud enough to alert
drivers we were coming through in parking lots, even
more so than most modern ICE vehicles. I consider
this a 'feature' instead of an annoyance.
Just my 2 decibels worth.
Rod
--- "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You haven't been listening to John Wayland, for one!
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 11:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
>
>
> > On 8 Mar 2007 at 5:59, Ralph Merwin wrote:
> >
> > > I've always been amused when people get upset at
> the "Curtis whine".
> > > Some long-term EVer's get downright indignant
> when they hear a Curtis.
> > >
> >
> > Curiously, despite the huge number (compared to
> BEVs) in service, I've
> never
> > heard anyone complain about the slight audible
> whine the Prius makes.
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Administrator
> >
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> will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please obtain my email
> address from
> > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/717 -
> Release Date: 3/10/2007
> 2:25 PM
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
