EV Digest 6572
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: [EV] Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Moment TV
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 5-mph bumper removal
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Precharge Resistor/Capacitor Decay Time
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Precharge Resistor/Capacitor Decay Time
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Would any EV groups like a "motor info" FAQ's page?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor mods Peter Gabrielsson
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Precharge alternatives
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Clutch VS clutchless
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Live from PIR, Fireball Incident
by Steven Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "Plama Boy" Live from PIR
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Eduardo, that did it.
Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't broadcast it. Just do it. If it looks stock you are ok. No one
except the body shop will notice. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:22 AM
Subject: 5-mph bumper removal
> I was wondering if anyone has any experience or insight into the
> consequences of removing the 5 mph bumpers on my Fiat 124 and
> replacing them with the pre 1975 bumpers. I guesstimate they weigh at
> least 75 lbs, so I can probably save >50 lbs by replacing them with
> the lighter earlier bumpers. It's not all that much but handling wise
> the weight is in the worst possible place and they're ugly.
>
> What I'm most concerned with is insurance, I don't intend to insure
> the car for damages to it but I'm wondering if the insurance company
> will still try to use the fact that I didn't have the original bumpers
> as a way to get out of paying damages to the other vehicle in the
> event of a fender bender.
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric,
Thanks for the example. Sorry I wasn't clear - I guess I was asking two
different questions. I'm planning a scenario where one contactor is energized
when the ignition switch is turned on and a second contactor is controlled via
the potbox. I was assuming that if decay time is long enough then a single
precharge-event would probably be all that would be needed during most driving
(at least most of my driving). Using the keyswitch once per driving cycle
would enable precharge Powering-down the controller every time your foot is
lifted off the go pedal wouldn't be an issue then.
Now that I think of it this probably wouldn't be reliable enough. One of the
other schemes recently discussed would probably work better (but not sure I
understand them). Would this work: as long as the primary contactor (-'ve
battery) is energized, then a fused precharge circuit on the +'ve battery side
(bypassing the secondary contactor) would allow the controller capacitors to
stay charged up; or have I misunderstood the whole issue?
thanks
Frank
----- Original Message ----
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 1:37:33 PM
Subject: Re: Precharge Resistor/Capacitor Decay Time
Frank,
Not exactly sure what you're asking, but I think that you're wondering
how long it takes to charge a given capacitor with a given resistor.
The time constant for a series RC (resistive capacitive) circuit is R x
C (resistance multiplied by capacitance). This is NOT the time it takes
to charge the capacitor. It's the time it takes for the capacitor to
charge to about 1/3 the _current_ voltage difference.
Typically, five (5) time constants is considered "fully charged," as the
capacitor will be 99% charged at that point.
Example:
10,000 uF (.01F) capacitor bank, and a 100 ohm resistor:
.01F * 100ohms = 1 second
5 * 1 second = 5 seconds <-- This is how long it would take to charge
to > 99%
WRT to the "starter solenoind wire":
You could do this, but the "start" signal from the keyswitch is
momentary, and should _initiate_ the precharge, but not be a constant
enable, while a loss of the "run" signal would power down the controller.
Frank John wrote:
> I've been thinking about the controller precharge question and was wondering
> if anyone knows (or can estimate) capacitor decay time for a Curtis 1231C
> controller? I'm wondering if I could simply use the OEM starter-solenoid
> wire to precharge?
>
> TIA
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich is right, if the circuit is install correctly. If the circuit is under
50 feet and if it's a surge type of load such as a welder that has a maximum
50 amps running, then we install a 8 space K frame 50 amp magnetic trip
circuit breaker that can be adjusted for the starting surge.
The wire we use for under 50 feet is No. 6 AWG Type THHN or THWN rated at 90
degree C. for 75 amps.
If we run a standard circuit for a stove, the wire is normally 60 degree at
55 amps using a TW cable which should be 125 percent over the maximum amp
use in the stove.
I am right now charging with a PFC-50B charger at 50 amps on a 50 amp 4
space circuit breaker on a three foot length of No. AWG 6 wire that is rated
for 75 amps at 90 degrees. A No. AWG 6 multi strand power cord is plug into
the power outlet and run 10 feet to the on-board charger.
The cable, plug and connector have never gone over 40 degrees C. Is cool to
the touch.
Just check the charger and its has 4.1 AH remaining for a finish charging.
Started to charge less then 20 minutes ago.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
> Roger..
>
> The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch fuse or
> breaker.
> Like water heaters and furnaces.
> Ranges by the way have mostly plug in receptacles. I believe that a Range
> with all burners on and the oven at max heat will draw very close to 50
> amps
> of 240.
>
> Again.. being a bit chicken results in a serious performance limit that is
> not needed.
>
> Running a 50 amp charger off a 50 amp breaker on a #6 gage contractor
> installed branch circuit..aka one installed the right way, Is safe and to
> the letter of the law.
> And if you don't have a power factor corrected charger.. the breaker is
> going to open anyways.
>
> Ask any contractor.... they know.
>
> And no I am not turning down the 50 amp limits of my products. They meet
> the
> letter of the law. Here in the states anyways.
>
> Rich Rudman
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Manzanita Micro
> 360-297-7383,
> Cell 360-620-6266
> Production shop 360-297-1660
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:10 AM
> Subject: RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
>
>
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > > Yea it could be a real product.
> >
> > I'm quite certain it is a real product. It sounds exactly like the eTec
> > LSV-100 (100A, 10kW NEV/GSV/etc. opportunity charger):
> >
> > <http://www.etecevs.com/nev/index_frame_lsv-100.htm>
> >
> > > Again the Spec you posted... is Bull shit.
> > > Not picking on you, I expect you are publishing what you read.
> >
> > People aren't reading carefully enough. It appears that two different
> > chargers are being discussed here: the first line says that the charger
> > "on" the vehicle can be configured for either 110V or 220V outlet; later
> > the "new" charger is discussed that can deliver 100A/10kW into the
> > vehicle, and it is specifically stated that *this* charger connects to
> > either 240V 60A or 208V 50A 3-phase - nowhere does it claim that the new
> > 100A/10kW charger accepts 110V.
> >
> > > 10Kw of 240 .....now we are talking normal stuff. 41 amp will
> > > do it. A house hold RANGE outlet will do it. that's a 50 amp
> > > U-14-50.
> >
> > Not legally it won't. 10kW into the batteries means 11.1kW from the
> > 240V line at 90% efficiency, and that's just over 46A. NEC allows only
> > drawing 80% of the circuit rating, or 40A on a 50A circuit. The LSV-100
> > spec sheet indicates 48A max input @ 240V and 40A max @ 208V 3ph, which
> > is why it calls for a 60A breaker on 240V and 50A on 208V (coinciding
> > nicely with ZAP's new charger spec ;^).
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch
> fuse or breaker.
You don't happen to have a reference that you can point me to, do you
Rich?
My understanding is that NEC 210-23(a) limits portable (ie. plug-in)
appliances to 80% of the receptacle circuit rating.
> Again.. being a bit chicken results in a serious performance
> limit that is not needed.
No argument; I would certainly like nothing more than to have someone
point to regulations that allow portable appliances to draw more than
80% of the circuit rating. We don't limit our chargers to 12A of 120VAC
because we want to; we do it because as near as we can determine it is
required for operation on a 15A outlet. 'Course, it might turn out to
be more of a UL-imposed requirement than NEC, but then there's that
section 210-23(a) ...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> Rich is right, if the circuit is install correctly.
What you can get away with and what is legal aren't necessarily the same
thing. ;^>
> If the circuit is under 50 feet and if it's a surge
> type of load such as a welder that has a maximum
> 50 amps running
But, a load such as a welder is not considered a continuous load, so the
80% rule would not apply.
> If we run a standard circuit for a stove, the wire is
> normally 60 degree at 55 amps using a TW cable which
> should be 125 percent over the maximum amp use in the
> stove.
Which appears to directly ontradict what Rich is claiming ;^>
If the 55A cable is 125% of the maximum current that the plug-in range
can draw from the 14-50 outlet, then this suggests that a maximum of
about 40A is allowed by code from a 50A 14-50 outlet, *not* the full 50A
as Rich suggests.
> Started to charge less then 20 minutes ago.
Now this raises the question of whether the NEC distinguishes between
continuous and non-continuous loads when stating the maximum current
allowed for a portable appliance. For hardwired loads, "continuous"
means that the load may be expected to draw its maximum current for 3hrs
or more. Non-continuous loads aren't subject to the 80% rule, so if NEC
distinguishes between the two types for portable appliances, it may be
that one could draw full rated current from an outlet provided the load
will last less than 3hrs.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This article means that the branch circuit, which is the wire rating from
the breaker to the receptacle. If I want to pull all of 17 to 19.9 amps on
a 20 amp breaker ( which has to be a magnetic type, not a thermo type to be
able to hold at that ampere) the wire feeding the breaker which is the
branch circuit from the main panel, must be at least 125 % x 20 amps or 25
amp rating wire. We than install a wire size No. AWG 10 in the branch
circuit.
It is normal for us to install very heavy duty industrial grade 20 amps 125
VAC 3 wire receptacles for equipment that draws between 17 and 19 amps.
This receptacles has set screw wire lugs that can accept eight No. 10 AWG
wire.
The receptacle in a home may be only 15 amp, but it may be on a 20 amp
circuit breaker. If the distance of the circuit is less than 10 feet from
the load to the circuit breaker, you can get by with the standard TW No. 12
AWG wire. If the distance is greater than 20 feet and you want to pull over
16 amps, it is best to install a No. 10 AWG circuit.
We find out what a receptacle is use for, and in may cases, we will install
a No. 10 wire to a HD 20 amp receptacle.
The light duty home type receptacle normally have a demand factor of 1.5
amps continuous, while the commercial duty is good for 5 amps continuous and
heavy duty industrial type can take full rating of the circuit breaker it is
design for.
Many of these type of special type circuits are pre-engineer prove and
pre-inspected in a lot of cases.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> > Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch
> > fuse or breaker.
>
> You don't happen to have a reference that you can point me to, do you
> Rich?
>
> My understanding is that NEC 210-23(a) limits portable (ie. plug-in)
> appliances to 80% of the receptacle circuit rating.
>
> > Again.. being a bit chicken results in a serious performance
> > limit that is not needed.
>
> No argument; I would certainly like nothing more than to have someone
> point to regulations that allow portable appliances to draw more than
> 80% of the circuit rating. We don't limit our chargers to 12A of 120VAC
> because we want to; we do it because as near as we can determine it is
> required for operation on a 15A outlet. 'Course, it might turn out to
> be more of a UL-imposed requirement than NEC, but then there's that
> section 210-23(a) ...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frank,
With the "throttle opens main contactor" setup, the pre-charge circuit
remains energized the whole time; your capacitors do not discharge
during zero-throttle. You don't "power-down" the controller with the
throttle off -- you (in a sense) current-limit it to just a few amps.
The actual "decay time" for the controller (time it takes the caps to
discharge with _no_ power applied, even pre-charge) is largely a
function of the design of the controller. The Curtis's logic is powered
from the B+ input (I think), and the discharge would depend upon the
current draw of the board. I would think that this might take some
time. Keeping the MOSFETs turned off requires close to zero current.
The main contactor "enable" should be several things, all of which have
to occur simultaneously before the contactor can (re) engage:
* "Run" input -- the car is on
* Bus voltage (B+) >= 90% of battery voltage (this is the
pre-charge). There's differing opinions about the exact percentage.
* Throttle microswitch enable
* (any other safety condition, like charger cord door open, etc)
Your 2nd paragraph is mostly correct. The entire purpose of a pre-charge
circuit is to limit current flow. It's essentially a switch and a
resistor in parallel with the main contactor. Even if the controller
were a dead short (failure condition), with the main contactor open, the
max current into the controller (assuming 120V system, 100ohm
pre-charge) would be 1.2A, with the pre-charge resistor dissipating
144W. If your pre-charge resistive element is a 150W light bulb, then
it would light up under these circumstances. Additionally, the voltage
on the controller side of the bulb would be very low, and the main
contactor could not engage, as per the conditions above.
Frank John wrote:
Eric,
Thanks for the example. Sorry I wasn't clear - I guess I was asking two
different questions. I'm planning a scenario where one contactor is energized
when the ignition switch is turned on and a second contactor is controlled via
the potbox. I was assuming that if decay time is long enough then a single
precharge-event would probably be all that would be needed during most driving
(at least most of my driving). Using the keyswitch once per driving cycle
would enable precharge Powering-down the controller every time your foot is
lifted off the go pedal wouldn't be an issue then.
Now that I think of it this probably wouldn't be reliable enough. One of the
other schemes recently discussed would probably work better (but not sure I
understand them). Would this work: as long as the primary contactor (-'ve
battery) is energized, then a fused precharge circuit on the +'ve battery side
(bypassing the secondary contactor) would allow the controller capacitors to
stay charged up; or have I misunderstood the whole issue?
thanks
Frank
----- Original Message ----
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 1:37:33 PM
Subject: Re: Precharge Resistor/Capacitor Decay Time
Frank,
Not exactly sure what you're asking, but I think that you're wondering
how long it takes to charge a given capacitor with a given resistor.
The time constant for a series RC (resistive capacitive) circuit is R x
C (resistance multiplied by capacitance). This is NOT the time it takes
to charge the capacitor. It's the time it takes for the capacitor to
charge to about 1/3 the _current_ voltage difference.
Typically, five (5) time constants is considered "fully charged," as the
capacitor will be 99% charged at that point.
Example:
10,000 uF (.01F) capacitor bank, and a 100 ohm resistor:
.01F * 100ohms = 1 second
5 * 1 second = 5 seconds <-- This is how long it would take to charge
to > 99%
WRT to the "starter solenoind wire":
You could do this, but the "start" signal from the keyswitch is
momentary, and should _initiate_ the precharge, but not be a constant
enable, while a loss of the "run" signal would power down the controller.
Frank John wrote:
I've been thinking about the controller precharge question and was wondering if anyone knows (or can estimate) capacitor decay time for a Curtis 1231C controller? I'm wondering if I could simply use the OEM starter-solenoid wire to precharge?
TIA
____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 19 Mar 2007 at 12:58, James Massey wrote:
> motor based FAQ page
I'd be willing to host such a critter on evdl.org. The only caveat is that
I don't support dynamic content control and Jim would have to email any
updates to me to post for him.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not between the pole and the frame. If you consider the pole to
look a little bit like a "T", then the paper is around the vertical
upright, and the underside of the cross bar, insulating the field coils
from the pole laminations. The bottom of the foot of the T is bare
metal, as is the top surface of the T.
Jeff Major wrote:
Eric, Peter and all,
There should never be any non-magnetic material between the pole and the frame, such as paint, paper (Nomex) or air. Sometimes steel shims are used between the pole and frame to adjust the main airgap distance (clearance between the armature and pole face). Called pole shims. Made from steel or iron. Adding pole shims reduces air gap which increases flux at light loads and therefore reduces light load speed in series motors. Doesn't affect it much at heavy loads.
Nomex (high temp paper) is often used to insulate field coils against frame
and pole. But if it was between the frame and pole, someone made a mistake.
Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale,
The original thread was about the Zilla's use of MOSFETS and NTC
thermistors.
-- Eric
Dale Ulan wrote:
Does that mean that you could use a mosfet-based SSR and a light-bulb?
The mosfet SSRs are two mosfets back-to-back, and should pass DC. It's
not uncommon to find one rated in the 10's of amps, cheap. Also, they're
isolated.
Careful - MOSFET's (and most other semiconductors) fail shorted (on).
That MOSFET will get voltage stressed when the contactor opens
under full load, and probably short. I believe that most OEM's
use a mechanical relay for precharge, and either a resistor or a
PTC inrush limiter.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
roland roger rich you may not understand the nec because I am reading ea
of you missapply the nec ea is almost correct but not quite . the branch
circuit the branch circuit over current protection device and the the final
branch circuit outlet device all 3 muswt be rated at 80% of load , wether it
is portable or not does not matter . weilders have different rule than battery
chargers , don't cross them up . type tw wire has a different rating that
type thhn /thhw don't confuse them as being = they are not . the 50ft rule
mentioned does not apply to the length of the branch circuit , in general it
applies to hard wired loads that have a standard disconnect . a cord and plug
is considered as a means of disconnect the 50ft rule normally does not apply
because the cords are supposed to be kept <50ft and not used to replace bldg.
wiring .
there are a number of electricians and masters on this list who will tell you
ea situtation must be looked at according to the patictular situtation if you
will me I will be glad to craft a circuit that will meet code but I need to
know all the details so it conforms correctly .
to keep this post short ill give another post with a general design for
today's home garage .
----- Original Message -----
From: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
This article means that the branch circuit, which is the wire rating from
the breaker to the receptacle. If I want to pull all of 17 to 19.9 amps on
a 20 amp breaker ( which has to be a magnetic type, not a thermo type to be
able to hold at that ampere) the wire feeding the breaker which is the
branch circuit from the main panel, must be at least 125 % x 20 amps or 25
amp rating wire. We than install a wire size No. AWG 10 in the branch
circuit.
It is normal for us to install very heavy duty industrial grade 20 amps 125
VAC 3 wire receptacles for equipment that draws between 17 and 19 amps.
This receptacles has set screw wire lugs that can accept eight No. 10 AWG
wire.
The receptacle in a home may be only 15 amp, but it may be on a 20 amp
circuit breaker. If the distance of the circuit is less than 10 feet from
the load to the circuit breaker, you can get by with the standard TW No. 12
AWG wire. If the distance is greater than 20 feet and you want to pull over
16 amps, it is best to install a No. 10 AWG circuit.
We find out what a receptacle is use for, and in may cases, we will install
a No. 10 wire to a HD 20 amp receptacle.
The light duty home type receptacle normally have a demand factor of 1.5
amps continuous, while the commercial duty is good for 5 amps continuous and
heavy duty industrial type can take full rating of the circuit breaker it is
design for.
Many of these type of special type circuits are pre-engineer prove and
pre-inspected in a lot of cases.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> > Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch
> > fuse or breaker.
>
> You don't happen to have a reference that you can point me to, do you
> Rich?
>
> My understanding is that NEC 210-23(a) limits portable (ie. plug-in)
> appliances to 80% of the receptacle circuit rating.
>
> > Again.. being a bit chicken results in a serious performance
> > limit that is not needed.
>
> No argument; I would certainly like nothing more than to have someone
> point to regulations that allow portable appliances to draw more than
> 80% of the circuit rating. We don't limit our chargers to 12A of 120VAC
> because we want to; we do it because as near as we can determine it is
> required for operation on a 15A outlet. 'Course, it might turn out to
> be more of a UL-imposed requirement than NEC, but then there's that
> section 210-23(a) ...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps the existing clutch pedal could be used to signal the
controller to change to "synchro mode" or whatever one would call it. The
controller could synchronize the motor speed to the appropriate rpm for the
current gear. I guess you'd need sensors to detect the "out-of-gear" state,
wherein the motor should "freewheel" and then spin up or down to match the
dowshift or upshift. I don't know how fast an unloaded motor can spin down
or up. Perhaps the "gear sensors'" signals would need to be delayed somewhat
in software.
Alternatively one could use the "out of gear" state to trigger this
mode but I wouldn't try it.
On 3/18/07, Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would hesitate, however, to recommend it for all modest performance
street EVs. Some transmissions take the extra load of shifting the
motor armature better than others (and a smaller motors can only help
here too.) It looks like the LeCar and the VW Beetle (air cooled)
transaxle take the workout quite well.
If you could program the controller to RPM-match, should it be
possible to shift reasonably quickly with hardly any load on the
synchros? It seems to me that some motors should be able to do
this? 'It's only software'.... :-)
While driving calculate vehicle speed to motor speed ratio.
You know what gear it's in. Shift up - let go of gas, motor
speed drops. Controller runs motor speed at the next higher gear
vehicle speed to motor speed ratio. To shift down - tap gas
pedal right after slipping out of gear, and it controls motor
speed to next lower gear (if no over-rev danger). Maybe?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
in general . use type nm2 thhn / thhw romex but use art 310-16 table the tw
rating . yes that is lower amperage but in a home they figure that heat
dissipation will be limited by insulation that covers the wire . hence thhn
wire using tw column . the size wire of the branch circuit is dependant on the
load and the length of the device fron the disrebution panel . there is a
formula in the appendex for voltage drop usually it will not come into play
unless the device is >100ft from the panel . a battery charger is considered a
continuos load . it can only be figured as 80% of the breaker / fuse . so
multiply load amps x 1.25 and that will give you circuit size and wire size .
remember the wire is sized to protect your home the breaker is sized to protect
the load . the outlet ( device ) is sized according to the load . 1.25 x load
max amps . .
----- Original Message -----
From: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
This article means that the branch circuit, which is the wire rating from
the breaker to the receptacle. If I want to pull all of 17 to 19.9 amps on
a 20 amp breaker ( which has to be a magnetic type, not a thermo type to be
able to hold at that ampere) the wire feeding the breaker which is the
branch circuit from the main panel, must be at least 125 % x 20 amps or 25
amp rating wire. We than install a wire size No. AWG 10 in the branch
circuit.
It is normal for us to install very heavy duty industrial grade 20 amps 125
VAC 3 wire receptacles for equipment that draws between 17 and 19 amps.
This receptacles has set screw wire lugs that can accept eight No. 10 AWG
wire.
The receptacle in a home may be only 15 amp, but it may be on a 20 amp
circuit breaker. If the distance of the circuit is less than 10 feet from
the load to the circuit breaker, you can get by with the standard TW No. 12
AWG wire. If the distance is greater than 20 feet and you want to pull over
16 amps, it is best to install a No. 10 AWG circuit.
We find out what a receptacle is use for, and in may cases, we will install
a No. 10 wire to a HD 20 amp receptacle.
The light duty home type receptacle normally have a demand factor of 1.5
amps continuous, while the commercial duty is good for 5 amps continuous and
heavy duty industrial type can take full rating of the circuit breaker it is
design for.
Many of these type of special type circuits are pre-engineer prove and
pre-inspected in a lot of cases.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> > Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch
> > fuse or breaker.
>
> You don't happen to have a reference that you can point me to, do you
> Rich?
>
> My understanding is that NEC 210-23(a) limits portable (ie. plug-in)
> appliances to 80% of the receptacle circuit rating.
>
> > Again.. being a bit chicken results in a serious performance
> > limit that is not needed.
>
> No argument; I would certainly like nothing more than to have someone
> point to regulations that allow portable appliances to draw more than
> 80% of the circuit rating. We don't limit our chargers to 12A of 120VAC
> because we want to; we do it because as near as we can determine it is
> required for operation on a 15A outlet. 'Course, it might turn out to
> be more of a UL-imposed requirement than NEC, but then there's that
> section 210-23(a) ...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> in general . use type nm2 thhn / thhw romex but use art
> 310-16 table
This is great information if one is undertaking new construction, but I
think that for those of us building/selling chargers, we have to assume
that they will be used with existing outlets, and in general the end
user will have no idea what wire or breaker is protecting the circuit,
other than what can be inferred from the outlet rating.
> a battery charger is considered a continuos load . it can
> only be figured as 80% of the breaker / fuse . so multiply
> load amps x 1.25 and that will give you circuit size and
> wire size .
And this, unfortunately, appears to support my understanding of the
limitations imposed by the NEC. The NEC already dictates the wire size
and overcurrent protection device size for a given outlet type, so when
plugging into an existing outlet your load is pretty much limited by
what is allowed on that circuit.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rudman:
>
> The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch fuse or
> breaker.
Richard...
The most powerful portable 125 VAC appliance I can locate is an electric
floor heater that is equipped with a 125 VAC 5-15P. This, of course,
plugs into a 15 amp receptacle. The maximum heater rating I have ever
found for sale is rated at 1500 watts. This corresponds to 12 amps, which
just happens to be 80% of its 15 amp plug and receptacle rating.
Coincidence? I think not.
All RUSSCO PFC chargers operate at a maximum of 80% of the receptacle rating:
The SC 18, 1800 watts draws 16 amps from a 20 amp receptacle (80%)
The SC 24, 2400 watts draws 20 amps from a 30 amp receptacle (67%)
The SC 30, 3000 watts draws 24 amps from a 30 amp receptacle (80%)
Please specify the NEC code section that allows 100% of the receptacle
rating to be drawn continuously for portable appliances.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
http://www.russcoev.com
The Other PFC Battery Charger With Built In GFCI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John, Jim, Tim, and all EVers that dream about going fast,
I know you all don't hear from me too often, but I follow the EVDL
religiously... I was very interested in the EVents at PIR this last
weekend.
Yes, warm batteries and cool motors (and controllers) go together on the
track. Take Rod Hower's advice and get that siamese8 cooled down (maybe
even put a water jacket around 'em, too), and my response to the mylar
snot ejection (if that is what happened), is to use polyimide tape (3M
sells it as Kapton) instead of mylar on the windings, it has a much
higher temperature rating and good for the voltage, too (if you use the
correct thickness).
Good luck getting that awesome power plant back on line and the WZ into
the 11's!!
Steve Wilson,
Hyde Park, NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2007/03/18 Sun PM 03:19:21 EST
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: "Plama Boy" Live from PIR
>
> John has been calling me from the track so for those very few EV race fans
> out there here is an update.
few ? I'll bet there are more out there than you think,, I remember years ago
, when before the big drag race event we got the story of what was going to
race , what new stuff was going to be tried , and then the reports from the
track , trickling in ,,, Like old time raido ,, Now we don't hear so much ,, Of
course I haven't done much posting on what I'm doing ,, not even any pictures ,
just to busy trying to get stuff done ,,, I'm been thinking about the 2 9"s and
wondering if I wouldn't be better off with 2 8's ,,, or 2 impluse 9" s with
there big 9 " brushes which on the toqure / rpm/ hp graft looks close to the 8.
steve clunn
The first run on the new batteries with the
> current turned down to a measly small street amps of 1000 it turned a 12.64
> at 98.69 mph. The 60 ft time was 1.67 and it was at 84.5 mph at the eighth
> mile at 7.85 seconds. The second run netted a 12.38 second ET at 104.21 mph.
> Of particular note is the fact that in all of last years racing 104 mph was
> the top speed they ever got out of "White Zombie". They have a great
> announcer at Portland International Raceway that is really playing up the
> fact that this is an electric car and also the specs on the car. The first
> two runs annihilated the cars in the other lane. The second run was against
> a built V8 Chevy Nova. The poor guy didn't have a prayer being matched up
> against the electric. On the second run he was at 87.73 mph in 7.74 seconds.
> With these leaps in performance they just may get into the elevens without
> turning up the amps. I personally believe this type of publicity does a lot
> for the cause of EVs. People at the track go home and tell their buddies,
> "hey, you wouldn't believe what I saw at the track last night!" The word is
> definitely starting to get out there and with the Car and Driver article EVs
> may become part of the general population's consciousness.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Fred,
I agree that in a residential wiring, you apply the 125% rule. As the wire
is de-rated in a cable romax type of wire. When I received my PFC-50B, I
had my shop wire commercially with a 200 amp feeder. All feeder circuits
are in conduit. All branch circuits are in conduit.
Maximum of three current carrying conductors per conduit using AWG 10
THHN/THWN in a 3/4 inch conduit for circuits not more than 50 feet. If
there are circuits more than 50 feet from the main panel, then there are sub
panels place every 50 feet spacing from the service disconnect.
The wire going to my charger 50 amp 4-wire 250 VAC receptacle is A No. 6 AWG
stranded copper 90 degree C. 600 volt rating. The run from the service
disconnect is only three feet which is rated for 75 amps.
The power cable which is a No. 6 four wire copper multi-strand is rated for
75 degree C and is rated for 77 amps for 10 foot length to the charger.
The breaker is a K frame heavy duty 4 space type, design for dissipating
heat through in and out vent screens.
I normally charge at 50 amps for not more than 30 minutes. If the charging
time is more than 30 minutes, then I reduce the charging ampere to 40 amps.
There is also a time factor we use when we install feeder circuits to a some
machines that may have a higher ampere than the feeder circuit and circuit
breaker. We use a Limitron 125 amp circuit breaker on a No 1 AWG wire that
ran 50 feet to a 160 amp machine, that pulse on for less than a second and
then if off for 15 seconds for about 10 cycles and than stay off for about
hour until it was ready to fire up again.
This system was also engineer design and its still working today after 20
years of running.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
> in general . use type nm2 thhn / thhw romex but use art 310-16 table
> the tw rating . yes that is lower amperage but in a home they figure that
> heat dissipation will be limited by insulation that covers the wire .
> hence thhn wire using tw column . the size wire of the branch circuit is
> dependant on the load and the length of the device fron the disrebution
> panel . there is a formula in the appendex for voltage drop usually it
> will not come into play unless the device is >100ft from the panel . a
> battery charger is considered a continuos load . it can only be figured as
> 80% of the breaker / fuse . so multiply load amps x 1.25 and that will
> give you circuit size and wire size . remember the wire is sized to
> protect your home the breaker is sized to protect the load . the outlet
> ( device ) is sized according to the load . 1.25 x load max amps . .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
>
>
> This article means that the branch circuit, which is the wire rating
> from
> the breaker to the receptacle. If I want to pull all of 17 to 19.9
> amps on
> a 20 amp breaker ( which has to be a magnetic type, not a thermo type to
> be
> able to hold at that ampere) the wire feeding the breaker which is the
> branch circuit from the main panel, must be at least 125 % x 20 amps or
> 25
> amp rating wire. We than install a wire size No. AWG 10 in the branch
> circuit.
>
> It is normal for us to install very heavy duty industrial grade 20 amps
> 125
> VAC 3 wire receptacles for equipment that draws between 17 and 19 amps.
> This receptacles has set screw wire lugs that can accept eight No. 10
> AWG
> wire.
>
> The receptacle in a home may be only 15 amp, but it may be on a 20 amp
> circuit breaker. If the distance of the circuit is less than 10 feet
> from
> the load to the circuit breaker, you can get by with the standard TW No.
> 12
> AWG wire. If the distance is greater than 20 feet and you want to pull
> over
> 16 amps, it is best to install a No. 10 AWG circuit.
>
> We find out what a receptacle is use for, and in may cases, we will
> install
> a No. 10 wire to a HD 20 amp receptacle.
>
> The light duty home type receptacle normally have a demand factor of 1.5
> amps continuous, while the commercial duty is good for 5 amps continuous
> and
> heavy duty industrial type can take full rating of the circuit breaker
> it is
> design for.
>
> Many of these type of special type circuits are pre-engineer prove and
> pre-inspected in a lot of cases.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 2:16 PM
> Subject: RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
>
>
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > > The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> > > Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch
> > > fuse or breaker.
> >
> > You don't happen to have a reference that you can point me to, do you
> > Rich?
> >
> > My understanding is that NEC 210-23(a) limits portable (ie. plug-in)
> > appliances to 80% of the receptacle circuit rating.
> >
> > > Again.. being a bit chicken results in a serious performance
> > > limit that is not needed.
> >
> > No argument; I would certainly like nothing more than to have someone
> > point to regulations that allow portable appliances to draw more than
> > 80% of the circuit rating. We don't limit our chargers to 12A of
> 120VAC
> > because we want to; we do it because as near as we can determine it is
> > required for operation on a 15A outlet. 'Course, it might turn out to
> > be more of a UL-imposed requirement than NEC, but then there's that
> > section 210-23(a) ...
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not an electrician but my reading of 210.23 is that paragraphs (A) through
(D) only apply when a branch circuit is supplying "two or more outlets or
receptacles"". I would think that if the manufacturer's instructions call-out
use of a dedicated branch circuit that using full rated capacity of the branch
circuit is permissible.
----- Original Message ----
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 4:16:40 PM
Subject: RE: ZAP claims to ship fast charger
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The NEC %80 rule only applies to presently installed equipment.
> Plug in equipment is cleared up to the rating of the branch
> fuse or breaker.
You don't happen to have a reference that you can point me to, do you
Rich?
My understanding is that NEC 210-23(a) limits portable (ie. plug-in)
appliances to 80% of the receptacle circuit rating.
> Again.. being a bit chicken results in a serious performance
> limit that is not needed.
No argument; I would certainly like nothing more than to have someone
point to regulations that allow portable appliances to draw more than
80% of the circuit rating. We don't limit our chargers to 12A of 120VAC
because we want to; we do it because as near as we can determine it is
required for operation on a 15A outlet. 'Course, it might turn out to
be more of a UL-imposed requirement than NEC, but then there's that
section 210-23(a) ...
Cheers,
Roger.
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
