EV Digest 6580
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Old NEDRA Videos Wanted
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) S10 EV vs Audi SUV owie
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Weatherization and Cooling of Motors
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: wall to road efficiency
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A few newbie questions.
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Datsun motor adapter?
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Curtis stuff
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: charging while driving question
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) ARGGG, destroying expensive lifepo4 cells. :( Need a "button" fuse.
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: wall to road efficiency
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17)
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "Matt Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I am going to be using a small mobile pc with an iotech data aquisition card
and labview with a touchscreen lcd monitor. I will be logging/displaying
just about any parameter you can think of. Will use wireless to download
data to the home pc for analysis. For the motor tachometer will implement an
over-rev protection feature. I am in the process of designing the necessary
isolated interfaces for current and voltage measurements. Another feature I
could do would be a shift indicator to make clutchless shifting (especially
down shifting) easier. It would tell you when the motor/tranny shaft speeds
were equal. Lots of other stuff in the works... Bottom line is I will have
hard numbers to work with as I make inprovements/changes to the truck.
Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I remember correctly IIRC means "If I Remember Correctly".
(and it appears in the case of this thread I didn't)
So here's the e-mail and I'll just say up front that you were right, only
because i can't prove otherwise. You were also right
about it being the throwout bearing :-)although the symptom was squeaking at
low RPM like pulling into the driveway. Which is why
I asked you about about the possibility of the brushes squeaking and what to do
about it. I must have been having one of those low
coffee days when I rememberd this reply.
<snip>
> Hey Mike
> Is the squeeking from the brushes?? It
> almost sounds to me that the throw out
> bearing might be making the noise, possibly
> do to being to tight, just a thought.
> Sometimes the comm / brushes can develop a
> squeek do to glazing of the comm but is
> useally only during really low RPM's.
> Try using some fine aluminum oxide paper
> on the comm and see what that does. Keep
> RPM's low and give it a light sanding. It
> won't take much to bring the comm to a
> clean surface. I doubt you're running it
> to hot, Waylands motor can't be touched full
> preasure for very long after a few good back
> to back runs 8^ )
<snip>
and the reason I thought it was you who replied about the baking soda is
because I thought I asked you about it and further on you
say:
<snip>
> Okay I erased your message before writting
> and I had someone come in so I don't remember
> if I addressed all your questions, hehe. I'm
> also becoming brain dead and druppy eyed due
> to poor sleep habits this past week 8^ )\
<snip>
So if I could prove that I asked you the question in the first place I could
offer at least circumstantial evidence that I'm not
crazy. But alas my sent items folder does not get archived all the time when
my wife cleans files. So basically you're right,
I'm crazy.
> Again another tortured, mutilated and twisted wad of
> information. How was I supposed to know you went to
> bed at 7PM when the sun said noon?? I emailed you but
> I didn't return to my sisters (see you add an s in
> there) until 9PM. Your lucky actually being what I
> know now, I'd just drive on over and invite my self on
> in drink all your coffee, and you know what I bet I do
> have that email. Sorry I'm a wiennie boy no exeptions
> in bed by 7, LMAO!
Now I'd like to see that e-mail ;-P I think what I said was my kids go down
between 7-8pm (when the sun says noon) and that
anytime after that I'd be free to leave the house. You see, I'm a slave to
the family until they're all asleep. And I'm a night
owl. Look at the time stamps on my posts. I'm usually up til 1 or 2 am
Pacific time (thats 2 or 3 am here, when the sun is going
down). You just invite yourself over for coffee, I dare you. You like Folgers
instant? ;-)
No need to defend your good name. I wasn't attacking you Spartan boy. Just not
remembering things correctly. I must be the one
getting old. Hey don't I have a car to work on?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks
I am spearheading an effort to post old NEDRA videos on youtube and google
video before they are lost to the sands of time and no one gets to see them.
2007 is NEDRA's 10th Anniversary and the older the footage the better.
If there is any way that folks could provide me with some takes from that
period it would be greatly appreciated.
Like plenty of footage of the people involved and also showing details of
vehicles. Shots of things like between rounds thrashing to prepare for the
next run would be great.
Pre and post racing get togethers like at the Wayland Juice Bar or anywhere
that EVs are being worked on would be good.
Yes, videos of runs would be great too :^D
I would, of course, be happy to credit the videographer in the description
of each video segment.
Thanks in advance for any help you may be able to provide.
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA Northwest Regional Director
www.nedra.com
_________________________________________________________________
Its tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMMartagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, after decades of no accidents, today a SUV bashed my
right side (see
http://geocities.com/brucedp/blazer/bashed-ev-070321.jpg
). ... and the day was going so well too ...
The driver of the huge black Audi SUV (Q7?) crossed over three
overpass lanes to make a left turn as I was driving in the
left lane. I swerved to the left as far as I could but he did
not stop and I was already there. We were doing city street
speeds, but the damage is still ng.
As we exchanged information, he admitted he was wrong and
stated he appreciated my professional approach to the incident
(not getting emotional, clear head, etc.). His admission and
details of what happened may all change once he is on his own
with his insurance, so I will have to see how this goes.
The location was near Oracle's SF Pennisula headquarters,
his vehicle was big, new, and expensive. He was dressed
as a preppy hi-tech professional, and had a little
hi-tech 'pressed-for-time' attitude (which is typical here).
He had quite a polluting daily SUV commute: from his
expensive East SF Bay home (the better part of the Oakland
hills) to his SF pennisula Hi-tech company and back.
Clearly, he was not hurting for cash.
I have called my insurance to see what pennies on the dollar I
will get toward the repair of my EV. It is still drive-able
but, I can not open the passenger door. I am glad the accident
was not worse as I need to be able to drive to my classes.
After the insurance gets their photo and makes their adjustment,
I will have to arrange for down time to turn my EV in for
door & body repair. Oh what fun.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
> Jim Husted
> When I used to run Beech Electric I'd tell my guys if
> you screw up and I'm chewing on you don't squirm it
> just makes me bite down harder 8^) BTW Mike you ever
> been spooled?? LMAO!
Nope, this is the first time :-O
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, Lead-Acid batteries rarely last 20,000 miles, many (most?) don't
even last 10,000.
But you are absolutely correct, EVs are not typically low maintenance.
Many folks on this list like to compare the costs of having a professional
maintain a ICE vs the costs of doing home maintainance on an EV.
Think about how expensive an EV would be if you had to pay to have a
professional check and water the batteries every month.
> I would have thought EV's have significant maintenance. It seems like
> batteries are changed between 20,000 to 50,000 miles and that is not
> cheap or easy, a lot more work than changing oil, and radiator fluid.
> Then if you have the common wet batteries you need to check the water
> levels every month or so from what I read.
>
> So while the controller and motor may be maintenance free I think most
> EV have a way to go to be less hassle than a typical ICE engine.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark Farver
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:19 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: wall to road efficiency
>
> Electro Automotive wrote:
>> Having spent a lot of years in a gas car repair shop, I have a pretty
>> good idea what annual maintenance costs are (or were ten years ago
>> when we quit) for a typical gas car. A 6,000 mile major service and
>> tune USED to be $150.
> The maintenance advantages are becoming less and less. Most people able
>
> to afford an EV conversion are buying fairly new cars that are covered
> by warranties. A lot of cars today can go 100,000 miles with nothing
> but oil and air filters. Manufacturers recommend oil changes at 7500
> mile intervals, and most other maintenance at 30k to 50k mile intervals.
>
> OTOH, if you are someone who tends to own cars past their warranty the
> difference can be significant on non-routine care. 10 year old cars
> don't generally need $160 tune ups, but even minor engine issue requires
>
> extensive troubleshooting by a mechanic skilled on computerized
> diagnostics. (At average costs of $75/hr, minimum)
>
> The Dodge dealership recommended junking my 1997 Neon because the ECU
> fuse would blow whenever the engine got hot. They diagnosed the problem
>
> as a short in the engine harness. A replacement harness was $1000, and
> they wouldn't waste technician hours diagnosing and repairing the
> harness. (I eventually tracked the problem to a bad heater element in
> a $30 oxygen sensor)
>
> I've heard GM uses a standard fuel sender part on many vehicles now, but
>
> the sender must have vehicle specific firmware written to it to
> calibrate it to the tank size. The sender costs about $17 to the
> dealer, who then charges $200 to download the firmware to it. Senders
> wear out, a lot.
>
> How many people here have had a technician "solve" a Check Engine light
> problem by replacing a $400 computer?
>
> Most of the people I talk to do not worry about the cost of auto
> maintenance, they just hate the hassle. The EV, I tell them, requires
> almost no routine maintenance, and almost all of it can be done in a few
>
> minutes by the owner in their own garage, and without getting their
> hands dirty.
>
> Mark
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi fellow n00b!
I've only been on the list about 4 months myself but have learned a great
deal.
1. As for newbie questions, check out http://www.evparts.com/faq/ for
the answers to frequently-asked questions about both the list and EV's in
general. There is a wikibook on EV conversion:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion . Google the EV
Calculator for quick&dirty answers to specific questions about battery pack
weights by type, etc. It's not comprehensive but will give you an idea of
the performance possibilities with the current widely-available
technologies.
I can't help with 2 or 3 since I'm a newbie myself. I've yet to
construct an EV and I expect it will be a while yet. Hopefully thanks to
this list I'll have some idea what I'm about when I finally do.
On 3/21/07, Barry C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am new to this group and in the process of learning and searching for
a good donor car. I have a few questions.
1. Is this the right place to ask basic newbie questions?
2. Does anyone use battery equalizers like Powercheq?
3. I also have been reading about the single point watering system,
Aquapro. Do people use this type of system. They seem like it would be
really helpful.
I am wanting to build a EV that I can commute from Hayward to Oakland.
Able to run 65-70mph. 35-50mi. And also have the ability to carry 2
adults, 2 children for around the town errands on occasion.
This is doable?
Right now I was looking at a
Ford escort wagon
Warp 9 motor
Curtis 1231 controller
Trojan T145 6V batteries. (144V 24 batteries)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Man....so close, yet still so far, those elusive elevens! By now, thanks
to Rod's play by play reports, everyone knows what happened. It's
starting to sound like a broken record...or is that 'the record that
wasn't broken'?
OK, the setup for an exciting Sunday at PIR...When I finally was able to
get in touch with PIR's Pete Macias on Saturday and learned that the
track was not open for nighttime racing, he told me about the Craftsman
series points races for the following day, Sunday. I had seen it posted
on their web page but figured we probably couldn't race while the big
NHRA competition races were going on. Instead, I was cordially invited
to bring the car on down to run 'time only' with other cars that would
be doing the same. This sounded pretty good, because our young high
school film crew could get good daytime video instead of the
harder-to-get nighttime stuff that is our norm. Pete warned me that with
so many racers showing up for the first race of the year, that space
would be taken up quickly and that if we didn't get to the track right
when they opened the gates at 9:00 am, we might not be able to get our
charging spot secured next to the 240 vac mains where we usually set up.
Just as forecast, it rained Saturday evening through the night and on
into Sunday morning, but there was the promise of sun breaks and dry
weather beginning mid-day. Hey, it's Spring in Oregon, this is what you
get and you take your chances! I was up early on Sunday. Emails were
sent and phone calls made. When Tim arrived we finished some last minute
items on the car, grabbed everything we needed for a day at the races
(we thought) and loaded up the work service truck. I drove the car with
Tim behind me in the North West Handling Systems rig as we drove off in
the cloud-darkened late morning during a rain spritz. The film guys
would meet us track side. Since we didn't leave the Wayland EV juice bar
until 11:30, I worried if we could even race with fears that we'd lost
the window of opportunity to secure the charging area.
The drive to the track was uneventful, other than in my haste doing
under-the-dash wiring work, I inadvertently deleted the turn signal and
wipers functions. The rain spritz bordered on a full-on rain shower, so
it was a bit weird driving atop the dike that is Marine Drive at 45 mph
(about 15 mph shy of rain sweeping velocity) with the Columbia River a
nice abrupt twenty foot drop to the right, while thousands of rain drops
turned the windshield into a PhotoShop Pixelate Crystallized view of the
road before me. After 12 miles or so and still a few miles from the
track however, the rain dribbled itself out, the dark clouds moved on,
and sunshine began to dry up the road...Yes!
Arriving at PIR Tim and I swapped machines and he teched in without much
fanfare, getting a thumb's up for the tidy new battery pack design. To
my pleasant surprise, the charging zone was ours for the taking, and
about the time I was maneuvering the big Isuzu service truck in place,
Greg and his band of energetic camera toting high school video students
arrived to help secure the area.
The track announcer of the day was Dan Bullis, perhaps the best
announcer we could have asked for! The guys were able to pin a lapel mic
onto his shirt, so all Dan's terrific pro-electric commentary are
captured...nice!
The new pack...clearly, has a lot more power! Before, when using the
pack of 30 larger Hawkers, the first run of the day/night was usually a
low 13 or high 12, and we didn't get into the lower 12s until after 4-5
runs. Last year's pack never gave anything better than a 12.308 (that
established White Zombie's class PS/A3 record) and the best trap speed
for the year was 104.73 mph, a down year compared to '05's smoke'n
12.151 @ 106.25 mph. Sunday, the car had a new attitude and with its new
pack the very first run down the track netted a quick 12.646 @ 98.69
mph. Such a quick time on cold and not-yet-broken-in batteries was quite
a surprise. Yes, the trap speed was pretty low for a 12.6, but I chalked
that up to the virgin batteries not being awake yet. I was correct. Oh
yeah...some dude in a stock looking Dodge-something ran a 15.293 @ 91.85
mph and was the Zombie's first victim.
We were all pretty excited over the prospects for the day after that
first high-mid 12 run. I predicted the next run would be a 12.4
something @ 100 mph. I was way off on that one, as the feisty
brick-sized Genesis batteries were still waking up when they slammed
home a 12.308 @ 104.20! Whoa...a 12.3? At 104+ mph? On the second run?
On still not warmed-up batteries? Tim was matched up against a primer
grey '69 Chevy Nova with a built V8, and absolutely wasted it in front
of lots of race fans. The Nova turned a respectable 13.061 @ 101.37 mph.
It's all caught on 4 cameras, including a car-cam securely strapped into
the Zombie's passenger seat (check it out at the 'Photos' page).
The charging between runs went without a hitch, and the batteries warmed
up but never got super hot like the old pack used to. We did make sure
to keep an eye on the packs, monitoring amps going in, voltage rise, etc.
The third run also surprised me, because it seemed there was no 'wall'
yet as the ETs kept dropping by ~ 1/3 second on each pass. There was
some poor guy in a BIG red SUV that he had evidently tweaked a bit, when
he was staged against the little white 70s econocar in the right lane
with all the funny stickers on it. I'm sure he didn't know what him him
when Tim hit the amp pedal. The clumsy SUV ran the 1/4 mile in 16.427 @
81.96 mph...White Zombie's 1/8 mile speed was higher at 87.81 mph, but
it was the scorching 12.161 @ 106.59 mph that brought 'Whoa's and
Jeezzzz's' from the race fans. I was pretty shocked that on the third
run, we had nearly matched the all-time best ET of the car, and, that we
had just edged out the all-time best trap speed! I knew that with a back
up run we had a new PS/A3 record in hand, but it was the allure of 11s
on the next run that had us all jazzed. Going by the way the car kept
dropping so much time on each run, and by Tim's reports of a solid 225
volts on the Emeter all the way down the track, everyone was convinced
that the next run would be an 11.9 or better.
After another flawless recharge, Tim was back in the staging lanes. We
had dropped the traction tire pressure to 12 lbs. since wheel spin was a
problem. This 4th pass turned out to be a solo run, so the crowd got to
appreciate how quiet the car was. A 1.669 60 ft. time and the 1/8 mile
in 7.623 @ 88.02 mph had us all convinced an 11 second run was at
hand.....NOT! Instead, the car simply obeyed the Hairball's motor volts
pre-set limit and locked onto it's commands like a good soldier, turning
in a near identical run at 12.162 @106.96 mph. 'That', was a huge
disappointment for us. Tim and I both knew what had happened, but then
we had also both realized I had forgotten the USB to serial patch cable
for my Mac...damn! No way to get data from the runs, no way to check
settings, no way to change the limits. What frustration! Here we had
this potent pack merely teasing the car with power, but we could not
change anything!
The final pass was a calculated one. We figured, that if we couldn't
crank it up at the far end by changing the limiting factors, we 'could'
do something about the first half of the pass. In all the racing we've
done, one of the things we've learned about this car, is that if we
limited the burnout to a short one, and if we pumped up the tires, the
1/8th mile ET dropped and its trap speed increased. We're not certain
why this is, but it seems to be a constant. The drag radials were pumped
up to 20 psi and the burnout was brief. Just as predicted, the 1/8th
mile was blistering, the best 'ever' and the first time a 7.5-anything
was achieved. In fact, it was almost a 7.4-something! To be exact, White
Zombie nailed the 660 ft. mark with a pro stock caliber 7.511 @ 88.86
mph! This would have knocked a tenth off the ET...if the car could have
made it all the way through the run. We later plugged the 1/8 mile
numbers into a drag slide rule that predicted an 11.64 1/4 mile ET based
on the 7.511! Of course, that's for a gas car, but it seems to back up
the strong possibility of a high 11 second White Zombie capability -
this with the battery amps still not even turned up!
As pretty much everyone now knows, at about the 2/3 mark, White Zombie
lit up the track with a fireball...this, on a sunny afternoon! Tim got
out of it and coasted the final 1/3 across the finish line, with a trap
speed 13 mph slower at just 94.18 mph. After coasting so far, the ET was
still 12.256! A pro stock driver watching the run told us (before the
fireball happened), 'That's an 11.8 pass!' I think he was correct....if,
it was meant to be. It wasn't. No less than four emergency vehicles flew
down the track. There's something about flames that get them all excited.
Tim was able to drive the car back to the pits in the series mode, so
both motor sections were still functioning. It appears that only the
rear section had the problem. We charged the car back up, packed up
camp, and began the trip home, Tim in the truck and I driving the
wounded Zombie. I drove it very gently, not noticing anything too weird,
but I only got about 1/4 mile away from the track when the car simply
lost power and coasted down to a stop. More frustration. The hairball
was coding out indicating no main contactor. Of course, WITH NO COMPUTER
CORD, we couldn't access the Hairball to read the codes! We checked
everything from both packs, to both fuses, to voltages here and there,
to wires and connectors, but couldn't find the problem. Suspecting the
rear motor section, I did a quick re-wire of the Siamese 8 so that only
the front motor was on line.....nope, still coding out. I measured
continuity on both motor sections and got good readings, so it wasn't
clear why the Zilla was so unhappy.
We ended up, giving up, and tethered the car to the back of the service
truck with a short chain and nylon rope affair, and towed the car with
the hurt motor and the man with the hurt pride, home. One more
thing....never, ever, let Tim Brehm tow you! 40 mph with only 12 feet
between you and the back of a large box service truck (that you can't
see around) with a massive rear bumper atop a narrow dike-two-lane-road,
is pucker time!
I know everyone is curious what happened to the motor and what happened
to the Zilla, but I haven't looked at the car since Sunday.
Time to decompress.....
See Ya.....John Wayland
Plasma Boy Racing
"We blow things up, so you don't have to!"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2007-03-21 at 17:11 -0800, Paul G. wrote:
>
> Electro-Auto's policy of making adapters if you send them the
> transmission was brought to my attention off list. I'd like to avoid
> the hassle of mailing my old 4-speed around the country. I'd be tempted
> to tear the engine down to just a block and crank and generate the
> pattern from that. I'd prefer to pay one of the EV vendors for an
> adapter and support their efforts.
>
> Thanx,
> Paul "neon" G.
>
>
Wayne at EV-Blue is currently making an adapter and coupler for my '63
Karmann Ghia. He went through the bother to go out to his local junk
yard and find a matching VW transmission so that I wouldn't have to send
him mine. He's very helpful.
Rich
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mmmmm... onboard labview :-)
I have to say this sounds awesome. I did a lot of labview work on my
co-op way back when and it is very cool. Incredibly powerful/
flexible yet easy to use and make pretty interfaces with. Strangely
I too have an old ibook sitting around for just such a task....
BTW, no need to install linux, labview runs on OSX.
Rob
EV-wanabee (for now)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI all
If you were to try to use labview as a custom
instrumentation panel, what
else do you need? What kind of things can you do with
it?
So if you get an LCD panel for it, what else do you
need? Whats OSX? I
presume you need some kind of memory for the LCD panel
to run it?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rob&Amy Smith
Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2007 7:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Better Data Logging Options?
Mmmmm... onboard labview :-)
I have to say this sounds awesome. I did a lot of
labview work on my
co-op way back when and it is very cool. Incredibly
powerful/
flexible yet easy to use and make pretty interfaces
with. Strangely
I too have an old ibook sitting around for just such a
task....
BTW, no need to install linux, labview runs on OSX.
Rob
EV-wanabee (for now)
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--- Begin Message ---
G'day All
Item 1) There was discussion a month or so back where someone got a Club
Car Curtis (1204?). I now have one, too, and have trouble working out what
the "Multi-step potentiometer" on the drawing that is available on-line
actually does. Did whoever it was that was trying to get one going work out
what was needed, if so could they let me know on or off list? Thanks.
Item 2) A friend (another wannabe EVer) has acquired a Curtis "fuel gauge"
off a forklift. It doesn't appear to be a simple expanded voltmeter, but it
seems too old for its' information to be on-line. It is model:
993/1C243648JOO10, On the back are two rotary switches "Reset" and
"Discharge" along with a 15-pin D connector. The front has a 10-position
bar graph as well a a small digital display. All this is a 2" round
housing. Daniel could find nothing more of it in the (partly wrecked)
forklift, hopes he has all of it but suspects there may be more of it. If
anyone has information on it, gratefully received. Thanks.
Item 3) I have been lucky enough to get hold of four dead lower voltage
Curtis controllers to play with (one being the Club Car one), three of them
are 1204's, one may be a 1205 but is hard to read and I haven't got it out
of its' case yet to be sure. The 1221 I have as well uses the same diodes,
so I'm planning on "ratting" the special reverse diodes from the lower
voltage units as spares for higher voltage ones. Someone (Lee?) mentioned a
dual diode that one side of can be used as a substitute. I emailed that
message on to my work Email and lost it in a server crash (...and my IT
tech was in the process of rebuilding the servers so there was no backup at
that time). Appreciated if someone who knows could list the substitute
diode for me, thanks.
Thats' it for now.
Regards
[Technik] James
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At 09:39 AM 3/20/2007, john fisher wrote:
Sounds like a call for an open source battery management project doesn't it?
Maybe this has been discussed to death before? There's a G3 Ibook on
CGl today for $70. I could run a modern PPC Linux on it for a
runtime and display of a LabView app. I guess the hardware to
collect data and control things is the hard part. at least for me.
You could always take a look at the EVBMS group on Yahoo.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Yeah, I've been thinking about this too. You'd just drive EV
normally, but if you needed to take a long trip, hitch up the trailer
and go. Sort of a hill billy serial hybrid :-) I'd be very
interested to try and take a wrecked Prius and turn it into a
generator trailer. There is both a 30kW generator and 50kW drive
motor attached to the engine, which I'm assuming is way more
efficient/clean than pretty much anything you'd find on a genset. It
would probably take some pretty serious electrical hacking to harness
that power and get it into your pack/drive motor, but even after
efficiency deratings thats a lot of power for pretty cheap! Also on
the plus side, the PHEV guys and the federal government have already
reverse engineered the thing for you LOL!
Rob
EV-wanabee (for now)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Does anyone know if there exists a "button" fuse, where each contact of the
fuse is opposite of each other? Sort of like a coin lithium cell? The reason
why I'm searching for them is to protect cells in parallel from a failed cell.
So, I'm trying to see if lithium iron phosphate 18650 cells can be used in
parallel/series in a 4S5P pack.
I bought 21 cells from www.batteryspace.com, and fiddled with them. I
accidentally shorted two of them! They got hot and dumped full power for about
10 seconds or so. Drats, one was ruined (fails in a shorted state), the other,
seemed ruined (very very low voltage, like .3 volts) but after a day, it
charged up fine. Cool, I thought. So at least I still have 20 "good" cells. I
mark the ruined but revived cell.
I wired up a 4S5P pack using lifepo4 cells from www.batteryspace.com. I put it
through a charge/discharge cycle on my charger, it works fine! Then I charge it
again, and notice it comes up as 9V only. ACK! So it turns out that the "ruined
but revived cell" failed short again, and it took out the other 4 cells in
parallel with it! Now I'm left with 15 cells, and 6 ruined cells, at almost $7
apiece, this experiment is getting expensive. :(
I'm thinking it might be wise to wire up a fuse with each cell, but the
logistics of wiring that up seems daunting. Is there any fuse that is like a
button cell, that I can just put on the "+" end of each 18650? I've googled and
all I've found were SMT fuses, which are too small. I've thought of maybe using
glass fuses, but the glass would probably crack inside the pack.
- Tony
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I think it depends on how you view the maintenance. As written below, I
think we're comparing apples to oranges here. Which would you rather do:
Cheap, easy, quick but frequent maintenance or Infrequent, costly,
time-consuming maintenance?
First of all, I just swapped out my batteries. Yes, it was costly but it was
-easy-. I was done in 45 minutes. 16, 69lb. batteries. Including cables.
Adding water? If your charger is modern and efficient, you'll rarely have to
do this. The Lestermatic that I used on my old Comuta Van used to slam the
batteries and I added water every 3-4 weeks. The modern charger I use now
doesn't gas the batteries nearly as bad. I might add water every 2 months.
That's a .78/gallon of Di water.
Lastly, I don't think I can quantify the value of staying CLEAN while
working on my EV. The lack of pollutants and hazmat lets me wash up in the
bathroom sink using handsoap instead of in the basement using pumice. After
what I went through restoring my DeLorean, this is such a joy.
Rich A.
From: "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: wall to road efficiency
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2007 22:22:10 -0400
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I would have thought EV's have significant maintenance. It seems like
batteries are changed between 20,000 to 50,000 miles and that is not
cheap or easy, a lot more work than changing oil, and radiator fluid.
Then if you have the common wet batteries you need to check the water
levels every month or so from what I read.
So while the controller and motor may be maintenance free I think most
EV have a way to go to be less hassle than a typical ICE engine.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:19 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: wall to road efficiency
Electro Automotive wrote:
Having spent a lot of years in a gas car repair shop, I have a pretty good
idea what annual maintenance costs are (or were ten years ago when we quit)
for a typical gas car. A 6,000 mile major service and tune USED to be
$150.
The maintenance advantages are becoming less and less. Most people able
to afford an EV conversion are buying fairly new cars that are covered
by warranties. A lot of cars today can go 100,000 miles with nothing
but oil and air filters. Manufacturers recommend oil changes at 7500
mile intervals, and most other maintenance at 30k to 50k mile intervals.
OTOH, if you are someone who tends to own cars past their warranty the
difference can be significant on non-routine care. 10 year old cars
don't generally need $160 tune ups, but even minor engine issue requires
extensive troubleshooting by a mechanic skilled on computerized
diagnostics. (At average costs of $75/hr, minimum)
The Dodge dealership recommended junking my 1997 Neon because the ECU
fuse would blow whenever the engine got hot. They diagnosed the problem
as a short in the engine harness. A replacement harness was $1000, and
they wouldn't waste technician hours diagnosing and repairing the
harness. (I eventually tracked the problem to a bad heater element in
a $30 oxygen sensor)
I've heard GM uses a standard fuel sender part on many vehicles now, but
the sender must have vehicle specific firmware written to it to
calibrate it to the tank size. The sender costs about $17 to the
dealer, who then charges $200 to download the firmware to it. Senders
wear out, a lot.
How many people here have had a technician "solve" a Check Engine light
problem by replacing a $400 computer?
Most of the people I talk to do not worry about the cost of auto
maintenance, they just hate the hassle. The EV, I tell them, requires
almost no routine maintenance, and almost all of it can be done in a few
minutes by the owner in their own garage, and without getting their
hands dirty.
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
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set ev mail digest
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07:52
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Hi John, and others,
There's always some disappointment when you don't walk away with a flawless
day at the track, but other than some day-ending carnage, it sounds like a
real success! Four great runs in a day, and Zombie's looking well on its way
into the 11s with that new, stout battery pack.
It definitely seems like the toughest part of drag racing is keeping the car
consistently and reliably performing well. Considering how hard you're
pushing the limits, the carnage events seem relatively infrequent!
I knew I had to chime back into the list after I saw your subject line. It
reminded me of the night at the drag strip during Battery Beach Burnout. I
had just finished half a day of filming with Michael Hoff Productions for
their Green Car TV series. They were trackside, filming during the one and
only run of Joule Injected when a six-foot diameter fireball ended my
night's fun. Afterwards, during an inspection of the vaporized S/P contactor
I got a good line in that hopefully makes it to the show:
"You know, my buddy John Wayland has a motto, 'We blow things up so you
don't have to.' Well, it looks like I got to this one before he did!"
Keep up the good work, John.
Matt Graham
http://www.jouleinjected.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:44 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
Hello to All,
Man....so close, yet still so far, those elusive elevens! By now, thanks
to Rod's play by play reports, everyone knows what happened. It's
starting to sound like a broken record...or is that 'the record that
wasn't broken'?
OK, the setup for an exciting Sunday at PIR...When I finally was able to
get in touch with PIR's Pete Macias on Saturday and learned that the
track was not open for nighttime racing, he told me about the Craftsman
series points races for the following day, Sunday. I had seen it posted
on their web page but figured we probably couldn't race while the big
NHRA competition races were going on. Instead, I was cordially invited
to bring the car on down to run 'time only' with other cars that would
be doing the same. This sounded pretty good, because our young high
school film crew could get good daytime video instead of the
harder-to-get nighttime stuff that is our norm. Pete warned me that with
so many racers showing up for the first race of the year, that space
would be taken up quickly and that if we didn't get to the track right
when they opened the gates at 9:00 am, we might not be able to get our
charging spot secured next to the 240 vac mains where we usually set up.
Just as forecast, it rained Saturday evening through the night and on
into Sunday morning, but there was the promise of sun breaks and dry
weather beginning mid-day. Hey, it's Spring in Oregon, this is what you
get and you take your chances! I was up early on Sunday. Emails were
sent and phone calls made. When Tim arrived we finished some last minute
items on the car, grabbed everything we needed for a day at the races
(we thought) and loaded up the work service truck. I drove the car with
Tim behind me in the North West Handling Systems rig as we drove off in
the cloud-darkened late morning during a rain spritz. The film guys
would meet us track side. Since we didn't leave the Wayland EV juice bar
until 11:30, I worried if we could even race with fears that we'd lost
the window of opportunity to secure the charging area.
The drive to the track was uneventful, other than in my haste doing
under-the-dash wiring work, I inadvertently deleted the turn signal and
wipers functions. The rain spritz bordered on a full-on rain shower, so
it was a bit weird driving atop the dike that is Marine Drive at 45 mph
(about 15 mph shy of rain sweeping velocity) with the Columbia River a
nice abrupt twenty foot drop to the right, while thousands of rain drops
turned the windshield into a PhotoShop Pixelate Crystallized view of the
road before me. After 12 miles or so and still a few miles from the
track however, the rain dribbled itself out, the dark clouds moved on,
and sunshine began to dry up the road...Yes!
Arriving at PIR Tim and I swapped machines and he teched in without much
fanfare, getting a thumb's up for the tidy new battery pack design. To
my pleasant surprise, the charging zone was ours for the taking, and
about the time I was maneuvering the big Isuzu service truck in place,
Greg and his band of energetic camera toting high school video students
arrived to help secure the area.
The track announcer of the day was Dan Bullis, perhaps the best
announcer we could have asked for! The guys were able to pin a lapel mic
onto his shirt, so all Dan's terrific pro-electric commentary are
captured...nice!
The new pack...clearly, has a lot more power! Before, when using the
pack of 30 larger Hawkers, the first run of the day/night was usually a
low 13 or high 12, and we didn't get into the lower 12s until after 4-5
runs. Last year's pack never gave anything better than a 12.308 (that
established White Zombie's class PS/A3 record) and the best trap speed
for the year was 104.73 mph, a down year compared to '05's smoke'n
12.151 @ 106.25 mph. Sunday, the car had a new attitude and with its new
pack the very first run down the track netted a quick 12.646 @ 98.69
mph. Such a quick time on cold and not-yet-broken-in batteries was quite
a surprise. Yes, the trap speed was pretty low for a 12.6, but I chalked
that up to the virgin batteries not being awake yet. I was correct. Oh
yeah...some dude in a stock looking Dodge-something ran a 15.293 @ 91.85
mph and was the Zombie's first victim.
We were all pretty excited over the prospects for the day after that
first high-mid 12 run. I predicted the next run would be a 12.4
something @ 100 mph. I was way off on that one, as the feisty
brick-sized Genesis batteries were still waking up when they slammed
home a 12.308 @ 104.20! Whoa...a 12.3? At 104+ mph? On the second run?
On still not warmed-up batteries? Tim was matched up against a primer
grey '69 Chevy Nova with a built V8, and absolutely wasted it in front
of lots of race fans. The Nova turned a respectable 13.061 @ 101.37 mph.
It's all caught on 4 cameras, including a car-cam securely strapped into
the Zombie's passenger seat (check it out at the 'Photos' page).
The charging between runs went without a hitch, and the batteries warmed
up but never got super hot like the old pack used to. We did make sure
to keep an eye on the packs, monitoring amps going in, voltage rise, etc.
The third run also surprised me, because it seemed there was no 'wall'
yet as the ETs kept dropping by ~ 1/3 second on each pass. There was
some poor guy in a BIG red SUV that he had evidently tweaked a bit, when
he was staged against the little white 70s econocar in the right lane
with all the funny stickers on it. I'm sure he didn't know what him him
when Tim hit the amp pedal. The clumsy SUV ran the 1/4 mile in 16.427 @
81.96 mph...White Zombie's 1/8 mile speed was higher at 87.81 mph, but
it was the scorching 12.161 @ 106.59 mph that brought 'Whoa's and
Jeezzzz's' from the race fans. I was pretty shocked that on the third
run, we had nearly matched the all-time best ET of the car, and, that we
had just edged out the all-time best trap speed! I knew that with a back
up run we had a new PS/A3 record in hand, but it was the allure of 11s
on the next run that had us all jazzed. Going by the way the car kept
dropping so much time on each run, and by Tim's reports of a solid 225
volts on the Emeter all the way down the track, everyone was convinced
that the next run would be an 11.9 or better.
After another flawless recharge, Tim was back in the staging lanes. We
had dropped the traction tire pressure to 12 lbs. since wheel spin was a
problem. This 4th pass turned out to be a solo run, so the crowd got to
appreciate how quiet the car was. A 1.669 60 ft. time and the 1/8 mile
in 7.623 @ 88.02 mph had us all convinced an 11 second run was at
hand.....NOT! Instead, the car simply obeyed the Hairball's motor volts
pre-set limit and locked onto it's commands like a good soldier, turning
in a near identical run at 12.162 @106.96 mph. 'That', was a huge
disappointment for us. Tim and I both knew what had happened, but then
we had also both realized I had forgotten the USB to serial patch cable
for my Mac...damn! No way to get data from the runs, no way to check
settings, no way to change the limits. What frustration! Here we had
this potent pack merely teasing the car with power, but we could not
change anything!
The final pass was a calculated one. We figured, that if we couldn't
crank it up at the far end by changing the limiting factors, we 'could'
do something about the first half of the pass. In all the racing we've
done, one of the things we've learned about this car, is that if we
limited the burnout to a short one, and if we pumped up the tires, the
1/8th mile ET dropped and its trap speed increased. We're not certain
why this is, but it seems to be a constant. The drag radials were pumped
up to 20 psi and the burnout was brief. Just as predicted, the 1/8th
mile was blistering, the best 'ever' and the first time a 7.5-anything
was achieved. In fact, it was almost a 7.4-something! To be exact, White
Zombie nailed the 660 ft. mark with a pro stock caliber 7.511 @ 88.86
mph! This would have knocked a tenth off the ET...if the car could have
made it all the way through the run. We later plugged the 1/8 mile
numbers into a drag slide rule that predicted an 11.64 1/4 mile ET based
on the 7.511! Of course, that's for a gas car, but it seems to back up
the strong possibility of a high 11 second White Zombie capability -
this with the battery amps still not even turned up!
As pretty much everyone now knows, at about the 2/3 mark, White Zombie
lit up the track with a fireball...this, on a sunny afternoon! Tim got
out of it and coasted the final 1/3 across the finish line, with a trap
speed 13 mph slower at just 94.18 mph. After coasting so far, the ET was
still 12.256! A pro stock driver watching the run told us (before the
fireball happened), 'That's an 11.8 pass!' I think he was correct....if,
it was meant to be. It wasn't. No less than four emergency vehicles flew
down the track. There's something about flames that get them all excited.
Tim was able to drive the car back to the pits in the series mode, so
both motor sections were still functioning. It appears that only the
rear section had the problem. We charged the car back up, packed up
camp, and began the trip home, Tim in the truck and I driving the
wounded Zombie. I drove it very gently, not noticing anything too weird,
but I only got about 1/4 mile away from the track when the car simply
lost power and coasted down to a stop. More frustration. The hairball
was coding out indicating no main contactor. Of course, WITH NO COMPUTER
CORD, we couldn't access the Hairball to read the codes! We checked
everything from both packs, to both fuses, to voltages here and there,
to wires and connectors, but couldn't find the problem. Suspecting the
rear motor section, I did a quick re-wire of the Siamese 8 so that only
the front motor was on line.....nope, still coding out. I measured
continuity on both motor sections and got good readings, so it wasn't
clear why the Zilla was so unhappy.
We ended up, giving up, and tethered the car to the back of the service
truck with a short chain and nylon rope affair, and towed the car with
the hurt motor and the man with the hurt pride, home. One more
thing....never, ever, let Tim Brehm tow you! 40 mph with only 12 feet
between you and the back of a large box service truck (that you can't
see around) with a massive rear bumper atop a narrow dike-two-lane-road,
is pucker time!
I know everyone is curious what happened to the motor and what happened
to the Zilla, but I haven't looked at the car since Sunday.
Time to decompress.....
See Ya.....John Wayland
Plasma Boy Racing
"We blow things up, so you don't have to!"
>
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